Nov 16
A Word of Caution
[Editor: One of our sporadic contributors K9 returns with this article. So welcome back to him. The article may appear a little controversial. So read through first and then get your in opinions later.]
There are many statements in football that ought to be taken with a pinch of salt. Not all of Fergal’s comments have been prophetic. In fact, I remember him having to eat his words about many an incident, especially in Europe and with referees. Anyway, the question is whether this team is the best we’ve had. In my opinion, NO. (By the way RedRanter, your comment policy was pretty hilarious to read. I know how it feels to have SMS lingo in my blog comments… Pardon the caps.)
For convenient reading, I’ll break the article down into three arguments.
First, this team lacks a very, very important ingredient to be a world conquering juggernaut we all hope it will become. That is called footballing intelligence. There is not a single player in our squad right now who knows how to pull the strings in case of a deadlock. The playmaker in our team is still firmly Fergie (its certainly not the Ginger Ninja, who, mind you is a very good passer and has good vision but doesn’t create moves from thin air like Cantona or Zidane). Anderson is fast, hardworking and a superb midfielder in the making but again doesn’t pull strings in a deadlock. Please don’t come up with all those games against small clubs as counter examples. When the shit hits the fan, not one member of our squad has the ability or the potential to rise above the game and take charge instead of getting bogged down by the goings on.
Secondly, and this is an issue which I’ve raised before too; we have no aerial prowess at all in our team barring the two central defenders. Entire games are won on that ability, especially in the midfield. Take a look, for example, at the game against Arsenal. The net count of the headers we won in midfield was…zero. The net ratio of the passes intercepted in midfield (even if against a fast moving short passing game) was abysmal. Hargreaves can’t challenge well in the air. Carrick can’t. Giggs…er…Scholes, nope. Anderson, too short, Fletch…er again…Ronaldo nope, Rooney and Tevez are too short again and so on ad nauseam.
If you watch that Arsenal game closely, you’ll find out why the game turned on its head the moment Saha was introduced. The guy is a very agile, tall player who knows how to move into the right positions at the right time. Most importantly, he knows how to take possession of an aerial ball and is the only player besides the defenders who knows a thing or two about challenging in the air. This team will find itself hard pressed for air, and thus directly, midfield superiority.
Lastly, football is not a game of statistics or of technical brilliance alone. The game on the ground is very different from how we see it on the telly or from the stands. On that field, it makes little difference what you can do with a ball in your backyard. The most influential thing that can win or lose games for you is morale. Not off the pitch but on it. That’s the role of a manager, to keep that morale high. That’s the role of a hardy captain, the role of Keane. That is the reason we miss him so much from the squad. When things aren’t going our way, I’ve often seen some of our ‘world class’ talent lose its cool, become frustrated and bicker on the field. Ronaldo is the prime culprit. Rooney isn’t much better off either, and neither is Carrick, Scholes or Hargreaves.
There are other players who are much more composed and get their head down and work quietly but don’t have the flamboyance to dictate a midfield scuffle (Milan last year, champions’ league) or crack open a really tight defensive setup (Chelsea, community shield). And the cracks in morale that develop in such high pressure games (Rooney vs Ronnie anyone? Anyone?) become that much more apparent and magnified on the boob tube. I don’t claim to have seen too many seasons to be able to judge over a large span, but I’ve seen and played enough football to know what makes good and what makes great.
All said and done, this team still lacks one thing- genius. It lacks that which is an integral part of all great teams. Be it Zidane for France in ‘98, or Maradona for Argentina in ’86, or Puskas and Di’Stefano for the great Madrid of the 50’s. And please don’t begin with Ronaldo-Rooney-Tevez et al, because none of them are overly blessed with both the pitch intelligence and the gritty perseverance of that order, though all of them are amazingly gifted in terms of physical capability and technical skill. That spark is irreplaceable.
As long as these things aren’t taken care of, there’s going to be no legendary feats here. Though we hope and pray with due vigour that this becomes a successful team, it would be a bit over the top to call it the best team ever and all that jazz. So let’s all be a little more sensible and take heed before the trumpeting becomes obnoxiously loud.
I rest my case.
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Tags: Opinions/Columns
November 16th, 2007 at 10:32
Blimey, I don’t find myself disagreeing with a post completely very often, so credit there
Firstly, whilst we don’t have a Cantona style playmaker (but who is to say that Anderson won’t become one) did the 1999 side have one? If you say Sheringham, I’ll counter with Tevez. Anyway, I think the team is more important than the individual and as a team we are capable of pulling something out of the bag.
Secondly, I don’t think aerial ability in midfield is that important compared to skill, tackling, passing etc. Sure the defenders have to be good in that area, but otherwise, nothing major. As for the turning point when Saha came on? It was 1-1 when he came on and it finished 2-2. Saha’s major contribution was a lovely reverse pass on the ground
Lastly, you have a point about morale being important, but if there is one thing this team currently have it is excellent morale. As for citing Keane as a main that is there to stop people losing their cool ? Heh, you’ll be saying Fergie is a mild mannered man next. Mentioning arguing on the pitch and not talking about Schmeichel, Pallister and Bruce ? And Keane and O’Shea. I think it is good in a way that Ronaldo and Rooney argue. They care, they fight for the team, they want to score.
Scholes and Ronaldo rarely loses their cool (Scholes is an appalling tackler and quite dirty but that is a different matter) Liverpool and Portsmouth aside.
November 16th, 2007 at 10:43
Agree with you Paul, I could never disagree more with this article. I never get why superiority in the air in midfield even matters. Especially considering Arsenal had midgets in their midfield in comparison.
Flamini, Fabregas and the like aren’t tall. Arsenal play the ball along the ground from back to front. ‘Air Superiority’ is a non-issue to me.
Of course, we do lack a certain amount of leadership this season, though.
And about creating chances from thin air, that was precisely what we did against Arsenal. Two quick moves and we had two goals. The second was well along the ground. The first one was a quick run by Ronaldo for a great cross.
And I haven’t talked about the lesser teams yet. This season we have been very clinical and are among the best counter attacking teams in europe.
I’m afraid I have to say, k9, your observation couldn’t have been more wrong.
November 16th, 2007 at 10:45
“Certainly not Scholes”, “not capable of creating something out of thin air?”I take it you weren’t at O.T last season when he lofted the ball over 2 defenders for Rooney against Milan in a moment of genius against the eventual winners. Or at the Blackburn game where he skipped past 3 players, before superbly creatin room for himself to score, when we were 1 down, hadn’t looked like scoring all day and could feel the prem slipping away. Further back his two goals against Juventus in the champions League game at O.T, there are countless others. Ask Thierry Henry who he rates as the most intelligent player he played against, I’ll give you a clue, he’s ginger and supports Oldham. Rooney has that vision too, Tevez may have it as well. Ronaldo can create things out of nothing. Giggs as well. What football team do you watch? Our second goal against Arsenal blew them away, with movement, we put 7 past Roma last season.To suggest that we don’t have intelligent players in our team is lunacy, pick one of our front 5, watch his movement. You might learn something.
November 16th, 2007 at 11:22
i dont think i need to add any more to what the above posters have said. SO thanks to Paul and RR for commenting and saving me the time and effort replying to a post that wouldnt deserve any of it.
November 16th, 2007 at 11:43
lol
I agree we don’t have a Zidane type player. But to call it lack of footballing intelligence is
too far fatched. Considering our young age the overall footballing intelligence is very high.
The only thing we lack right now is “Experience”, experience will be enough to break a deadlock.
If our players develope at the current rate we won’t need a Zidane to pull the strings for us.
2.
Hilarious check our scores.
And watch the game again, Saha he didn’t change the game with a header.
3.I agree we don’t have a captain in Keane’s mold. To add some sauce, Tevez was captain in his
1st and only season for the Corinthians, Vidic was the youngest captain in Red Stars history,
Ronaldo and Rooney, Rio certainly have the quality to be a captain.
Due to many reasons like talent, character, language barriers I don’t expect any of the players
to become a captain like Kean. But everyone can see that we have a lot of players who can be
captain. So I’m not concerned about this.
+Ronaldo has a pretty good temper.
Over-hilarious.. if we don’t have genius then who has? Maybe Barca since they have Messi right? lol
News flash! Of course Zidane and Maradona are genius. So how the hell did we win the treble
without a genius??? Or something like this : How the hell did liverpool win the Champions league?
I guess it was a miracle by our holy fathers!
November 16th, 2007 at 11:48
Like Shaheen said it, this post doesn’t deserve any comments.
But it was so much E.T I just had to reply.
November 16th, 2007 at 12:13
I have to agree… with the comments. Never have I disagreed more than with this article. It’s not enough just being controversial for the sake of being controversial.
To add a little bit to all the other comments, with which I mostly agree, I’d say that you can’t completely disregard aerial ability… unless of course you judge by the number of balls won in midfield, since that’s comple rubbish. Aerial ability is important in the box, and I don’t see us suffering in that area at all. Defensively we’re very well off, and even though it might not seem that way, we have actually scored a few from headers so far.
Ronaldo has at least 4, Vidic has 1, Saha has 1, Rooney has 1, Tevez has 1…at least 8 goals from headers, it’s not that bad is it?
November 16th, 2007 at 12:29
Spot on!! cant agree more, the Ginga ninga does have tricks up his sleeve but they come far apart. Leadership is seriously lacking on the pitch. I dont think we should buy a leader becsuse i believe among that lot there is leader who can step to the plate but someone needs to drag them oout of that shell. I must just add that Ronaldo and Rooney are not good friends and never will be. Like it or not, Ronaldo does not play for the “team” and lets treasure the success that comes with him trying to makie himself an idol. Rooney genuinely tolerates Ronaldo for the team how far he will go is the champions league winning answer. Anderson?? give anderson a chance, he has only started and at nineteen he is showing great promise. My biggest worry is that he is not allowed to come out and play, he loves time on the ball and thats when his skill is displayed. am just saying his doing a lot more defending than being involved in attack. Finally this team is not the greatest, the defence has started to fall apart and that needs to be sorted quickly, the soft goals at the emirates are evidence. Our greatness will show if we win the champions the Barclays primier league cups.
November 16th, 2007 at 12:35
I partially agree with the post.
1. Football intelligence: I agree that we don’t have anyone in the squad who comes close to Zidane in terms of being able to produce magic. Scholesy, in my opinion is our most intelligent footballer, but even he doesn’t have the ability that Zidane did. However, I think you write Anderson off too soon. He is just a kid, and needs time and games to develop. He has tremendous potential, hopefully he wil fulfill it.
2. Aerial Ability: I think its fair to say that we lack aerial presence, especially if Saha is out. Only Rio, Vidic and Ronaldo are accomplished in the air.
3. Morale: When the going gets tough, we do have players who can rise above the tension and pressure. Last season, the Milan game is hardly a valid counter argument. We were fooked with injuries, and every single player was exhausted. Ronaldo, for all his faults, can take pressure very very well. He has a lot of courage and strength of character. He isn’t very intelligent football-wise, but that’s a different issue. I was surprised at how well we played in some games of intense pressure last season. The away goal against Roma was the one I celebrated most. To score against the run of play, in a hostile away atmosphere, when we were a man down, was amazing. Also, the Blackburn home game, Tottenham away, Everton away, Fulham away, Milan home, Roma home were all amazing displays of skill and courage.
So, I agree with some parts of your post. In my opinion, this season, and next season are supposed to be our best shot at European glory. Last season was a bit of a fluke in the sense that I don’t think Fergie was really aiming for European glory. The priority was the Premiership, but considering the size of our squad, we did incredibly well to go as far as we did. So give the team more time, it has real potential. A few improvements can definitely be made, but as it is, this team has serious talent. Maybe we won’t win the European cup, that’s quite possible, but it definitely isn’t a given that we WILL not win anything.
November 16th, 2007 at 13:43
what was zidane’s age,in 98?what was maradona’s?c’mon,we are talking about rooney,ronaldo,tevez,anderson.they are 22s,20s
November 16th, 2007 at 13:55
I think we are blest in the sense that we have not only one Cantona, but about 7-8 players for that role. Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldo, Saha, Scholes, Anderson, Carrick, Giggs can all play the part. Given none of them can do it as effectively as the man himself, but combined and as a team, its like having about 4 Cantona’s on the field at the same time. Creatively, our team CAN break down defenses. However, we lack the leadership mentioned in the article. Perhaps when Neville gets back this will no longer be a problem.
Our current team is not great yet (need to win first), but, it has more potential to be than any before it.
November 16th, 2007 at 14:23
Well the current side has won the league remember, but can it win the Champs League or another treble, see off Chelsea/Arsenal/Liverpool. Only then will it be a great side by United standards. By City standards it is already great
btw, Thanks to all the commenters who have agreed with me.
November 16th, 2007 at 16:00
CHAMPIONS, 2nd in the league, walked our Champions League Group, got an away draw against our nearest rivals (which they celebrated like a win), and yet according to K9 we; lack leadership, intelligence, genius, so on. Are you sure you’re not a siddy fan with all that whinging.
November 16th, 2007 at 16:03
i agree with u only on point..
we lack a LEADER
November 16th, 2007 at 16:13
20legend: true we lack a leader
but have you noticed something? teams that seem to need a leader, are not actually very good. It’s been said recently that England need a leader; should it be Gerrard or Terry. Well, if they have a great team, no one would be talking about needing a leader. Going back in time, the 80’s United had a real leader called Bryan Robson. We didn’t win very much then.
If a team is good enough, does it still need a leader? I think United have 7 or 8 players, whilst not leaders, who can come together and lift the team in other ways.
November 16th, 2007 at 16:37
partially disagree. Manchester united have been able to score 24 goals in the last seven games, most of which were well worked from the ground. Though we have a weakness in aerial threats that should not cause much concern. I think Ferguson and the players have realised this weakness and thats why the are using the ground route. You cant have it all you know. Forgive me if this may seem personal but we do not need a zidane or pele so as to succeed. I can understand that every one would love to have such qualities in the teams they support but what makes manchester united and by extension Arsenal to stand out is that they know that they dont have this qualities but have unique players who are able to produce results in the way they know. Look at Andres Iniesta , people dont talk much about him but when you look at him play(especially his through balls) you will say he does qualify to be ranked amongst greats like Zidane and he is unique. Same to Tevez and very soon anderson and the rest.
On the issue of being not ableto perform in a deadlocked situation, I personally think your argument is based on the defeat at AC milan. that period we could not match AC milan
since our squad was tired and we didnt have enough depth for cover. but this season we have with a little exception on the strikers(what happens when tevez and saha are injured).
November 16th, 2007 at 16:38
I wonder what grognard would have to say about this article. probably 20 paragraphs. But as for me, I disagree about the leadership part. I think Giggs provides the kind of quiet, understated leadership that ges unnoticed, and Rio definitely marshalls the defence along with vida. The rest doesn’t even deserve a mention.
November 16th, 2007 at 16:54
All this nonsense talk about leaders or not… it’s popular journalism, simply what journalists want us all to believe. What is a leader anyway? Keano was a leader… yeah maybe, but he was a fantastic footballer as well, and leadership won’t do it alone. A team that bases its results on great leadership is far worse off than our so-called non-led team. It’s rubbish saying we have no leaders… we have them in abundance. Players who rise above the challenge… Ronaldo, Rooney, Rio, Vidic, VDS…they’re definitely out there. Claiming that we have no leaders is simply the only way to find flaws with this team, and some people seem to have a need to find flaws.
I can guarantee you that the players on the pitch do not feel a lack of leadership… the confidence is simply too high for that.
In stead of looking at the flaws, why don’t you (the author) look at the positives in stead? It’s clear that SAF isn’t trying to build a team after your mind, but you have to deal with that and accept that it’s a great great team in the making. There’re simply more than one way of building a great team. This team obviously doesn’t need ONE leader… it has players making the extra effort all over the pitch.
We’ve seen some of the absolute best teams ever be without aerial presence. Real Madrid’s Galacticos and Barcelona (in the 90’s and a few years ago) are good examples of this. Teams who kept the ball on the ground and passed it fast and precisely, making the other teams’ defenses spin and turn trying to find out where their man went. We don’t need a target man upfront or a striker that scores 10 times per season from headers, because we’ve got spectacular skill all over the field.
Imo the only thing this team needs in order to reach greatness is some experience and some more trophies, and I seriously can’t imagine them not bringing us silverware, and a lot of it.
Oh, and saying that we don’t have enough football intelligence is disgraceful. All our attacking players are extremely intelligent football wise, and so are our defenders and midfielders. When it comes to comparing our players to the likes of Maradona or Zidane, I surely think we have talent to match those in the current crop. Ours are simply different style of players, just as Zidane was different in style from Maradona. I seriously don’t know, what you want, K9… what are you looking for to up the creativity and intellgence?
November 16th, 2007 at 16:58
Nelson Otieno - you can’t say that SAF and the players have realised the aerial weakness… this team was never built to be a powerful aerial force.
Kramer - could you please elaborate on Ronaldo’s lack of intelligence football-wise? To me that’s really far fetched.
November 16th, 2007 at 17:43
Aerial ability hmm.i disagree there as we have scored headers ronaldo-sporting,ronaldo-kiev,ronaldo-blackburn,pique-kiev,ferdinand- kiev,rooney-wigan,vidic-everton.saha-sunderland.thats 8 headers.if u ask me thats a bloody lot for a team with no aerial ability. We may have short 2 short strikers but vida,ferdinand,ronaldo,saha are all over 6 foot.i know fletcher and carrick cant head but they pretty tall too.u know wat?i dont think EVEN chelsea have scored as many headers as us.watch a game and count the numba of headed clearances vida makes.and that crap about intelligence was really funny.ronaldo,rooney,scholes,tevez are stupid?who was the genius in 1999?butt?or maybe blomquist?
November 16th, 2007 at 18:23
Perleeese…..what pessimism in this article. You mention Puskas and Zidane, but these two are 60 years apart and shows that the numbers of true football genious are 2 or 3 a generation if you are lucky. I wonder how we ever managed to cope with only Edwards, Charlton, Best and Cantona in midfield at United. Ohhh…I guess we won what we have because of all those second raters in midfield like the diminutive Nobby Stiles, Brian Robson, Roy Keane, David Beckham and the uninspired front men like Rowley, Law, Hughes, Solskaer and Van Nistlerooy, not to mention the many 2nd rate defenders we have had over the decades, you know…Dunne, Buchan, Schmeical, Bruce, Pallister, Foulkes, Irwin etc. etc. etc.
Interesting article but way, way off base and sounds more like a prelude to taking an overdose of aspirin given we have such a bad team!!! The current men may lack a little experience yet, but have the potential to match and even exceed those that came before, and this is exactly as it should be at United!
November 16th, 2007 at 18:40
I must admit, I like K9’s style. He stands for what he believes in ad his arguments make sense. I don’t particularly agree with most of them (especially leadership) but there is one argument that I totally agree with 100%.
“All said and done, this team still lacks one thing-genius. It lacks that which is an integral part of all great teams. Be it Zidane for France in ‘98, or Maradona for Argentina in ’86, or Puskas and Di’Stefano for the great Madrid of the 50’s. And please don’t begin with Ronaldo-Rooney-Tevez et al, because none of them are overly blessed with both the pitch intelligence and the gritty perseverance of that order,”
YES YES YES!!! This is so true. Hopefully Anderson will turn in to this kind of player but even I have a few doubts over his pitch intelligence and gritty perseverance. In my last post I referred to the need of maestro in the AMF spot and why Carrick isn’t the answer. K9 really does defend my point well. All our players seem to look for somebody to take charge on the pitch. We don’t have that take charge player. Leadership comes in many forms but we need a player who can scream, direct and take charge. We seem to do well without but just imagine how great this team could be if Keane ran the show in midfield or even Cantona from the AMF position?
Aerial ability is no big deal especially in Europe where nobody uses it. Besides, we have the aerial ability on the defense with Rio and Vidic and they do help out offensively too.
We also have footballing intelligence out there but K9’s description seems to allude that that we have 10 players running around without a clue in the head’s. He is so wrong. Ronaldo still needs to mature more but he has shown a greater degree of intelligence and good judgment over the past two seasons. The same could be said about Rooney. Lets not mistake raw youthful enthusiasm for lack of intelligence. That said, we do need a player in the center of midfield that can pull the strings like Maradona, Zidane or Cantona. In that I am in agreement with K9. And it should not come as a surprise that I love the fact that he has the balls to deliver an opinion that many would disagree with. Good for him. Fewer fence sitters and more boat rockers would certainly spice things up a bit.
November 16th, 2007 at 20:05
Anderson is that man grog.he has pace,skill,passing ability,so called intelligence and that brazilian brilliance!
November 16th, 2007 at 20:40
wow i like this guy, great article, though some parts i did not agree with and im too tired to argue/ debate depending on your taste
November 16th, 2007 at 21:07
Speelendid. I hope most of you are right and that I am proved wrong. But I have my doubts and only time will tell me whether I erred.
November 16th, 2007 at 21:11
Oh and by the way, I didn’t mean Anderson clashing heads with Fabregas when I talked of air superiority. I was talking more on the lines of whose head gets to the ball lobbed upfield by either keeper which would in due course determine whose feet it would end up in and which team would get to make the next move. It’s called ball possession in lay argot. United generally lose out in this department, unless we are gifted the ball by fluke or by a misplaced opposition pass. Just so you know.
November 16th, 2007 at 21:43
@Thomas
Ronaldo has absolutely everything that he could possibly require to be one of the greatest in history. He has very quick feet, pace, great body strength, he’s great in the air, and he can shoot well with either foot. He is mentally also very very strong. But he lacks the sense of knowing when exactly to pass the ball and for his skill, he doesn’t produce moments like Ronaldinho or Zidane. When you look at Messi, he doesn’t use half the tricks that Ronaldo does, but he is far far more effective. This is because he has a great footballing brain.
Ronaldo has improved a lot in recent years, especially last season. This was mainly because he developed his awareness. There is still time for him to improve, however, I think his natural state of mind is to do step overs and run with the ball. His off the ball movement has improved, which is great, but I don’t know if he’ll ever reach the heights that he has the potential to. I love him, and really hope he does, but I personally don’t think he will.
November 16th, 2007 at 21:44
k9; Keep it up mate. I love it when someone shakes up the foundation a bit. Your points are good and valid and who really cares if some disagree with you. You brought up ideas that were well thought out and you stimulate debate. Debate and alternative ideas is what it’s all about. Keep em coming.
November 16th, 2007 at 21:53
Kramer; Great point comparing Ronaldo with Messi. Messi truly does have a great and very creative mind. I love Ronaldo but I do think that he is easy to figure out and that he can be marked out of a game by quality defenders or midfielders. Messi truly has that extra genius and imagination. He also has a burst of speed from a static position that is incredible. This allows him to get by defenders without the use of trickery. His awareness is radar-like. He sees the game in slow motion. Ronaldo quite often dribbles or runs himself out of a good position. Perhaps Ronaldo has more in him and will continue to improve but the scary thing is that Messi is younger and he too has lots to learn and plenty of room for improvement. Anderson is good but I have yet to see the skill set that these two have developed. Is he our savior at AMF? I hope so but I don’t honestly know.
November 16th, 2007 at 22:09
I reckon youve got it all spot on m8.there is 2 much hype,although we have played some brilliant football this year.the only thing that i dont agree with is that i think that scholesy can change a game.eg that pass against milan last year,who else could do that!
November 16th, 2007 at 22:22
Sorry, but I have to disagree here. Firstly there is no proof whatsoever that Anderson won’t become a Zidane, after all he has barely played 10 games for United, so how can we make a correct judgement on what he will become. Secondly, Ronaldo is a magnificent header of the ball as we have seen on many occasions (Kiev most recently). Finally aerial prowess in midfield is hardly essential to the success of the team. Apart from on set pieces, the midfield hardly has to win headers since whenever the goalie or a defender boots the ball upfield it’s directed towards a tall attacker (ex. Crouch, Drogba), so it’s Vida or Roi’s job to do the heading, not the midfielders’. The midfield’s job is to intercept passes and prevent low balls from passing. Ofcourse they also set up goals and score a fair few.
Come on you Devils!!!
Daniel
November 16th, 2007 at 23:55
The Best United side I’ve seen (a fan since 98) won the Treble. They had everything. Leadership, a robust strikeforce, Defensive grit, superb width, air, the team was at career peak. It was Fergie’s best squad ever and any other squad is an attempt to recreate that. It is important ot realize though that this is the best squad since then and the on that comes closest to that glory.
November 17th, 2007 at 1:15
I do find myself agreeing with some parts of this article. Ronaldo, as much as he is heralded by people (myself included) isn’t in the same class as the Zidanes and the Maradonas. This is due to a lack of a good footballing brain. Ronaldo got where he is today by practicing not by being born with it which is what all of the great players have.
November 17th, 2007 at 11:54
Kramer - Do you really think that Messi is far more effective than Ronaldo?
First of all, I’ve watched quite a few games of Messi this season, and I’ve watched all of Man Utd.’s games. I’ve seen Messi taken out of games by defenders more than once. I have to say that I doubt neither you nor Grognard have watched Messi that much… am I right? The same has happened to Ronaldo, but still he’s managed to score a lot of goals already this season, which says quite a bit about his football intelligence. His movement off the ball is spectacular.
Also you have to consider the fact that they play in different leagues. Messi plays in Spain, where there is much more space to receive the ball and turn, because so many of the teams play attacking style football and worry less about defending.
Messi and Ronaldo are - despite the fact they may appear similar in approach to the game - very different in style. And people trying to make Ronaldo less intelligent football-wise because he uses stepovers all the time are hugely mistaken.
On-pitch intelligence is about using your skills in the best and most effective way. Maradona’s magic often started with him beating his opponent and another defender. Zidane never played to beat his man. He did on occasion, but he based his game on vision, balance and extraordinary passing. Brilliance comes in many forms, and you shouldn’t expect Ronaldo to play like the other greats.
In terms of ability, Ronaldo might well be the greatest gifted player ever, and sometimes it seems as if he’s trying to find out how to use all his abilities the best way. He’s still very young, and you can’t claim, he’s not a brilliant force just because he once in a while makes a wrong decision… believe me, Maradona, Zidane did it, and yes even Messi makes wrong decisions on occasion. I remember Zidane from his time in Bordeaux, and he was a great player. But he was also a player who struggled to find out how to use his skill on occasion. And sometimes he lost his temper, because the opposition was rouch on him (as he did his entire career). When he came to Juventus (as a 24 yo) and Real Madrid (29 yo), things started falling into place for Zizou, but he was almost 30, when he made the move… Ronaldo is 22. People please don’t judge his football intelligence just yet. I’d say that having the best goal and assist ratio in Europe at the age of 21 and as a winger is quite brilliant.
November 17th, 2007 at 12:09
Grognard - Doesn’t Ronaldo have a burst of speed from a static position? I’d say he does.
I’d also like to comment on your choice of words. You’re looking for a saviour for our AMF… what’s the deal with that? I know from many of your previous comments that you don’t think Scholes has got it anymore. Am I right? You think he slows the game too much, and that he’s not dangerous enough himself. How can a team win as much as this has done without a very very good player as AMF, which is such a crucial position for the flow of the attacking game?
One last thing. I don’t see why everybody is so overly in awe over Messi. Has he really been that great in comparisson with Ronaldo? He’s a different style of player, but who is the most dangerous? Who would you rather have in your team? If Ronaldo played in Spain this season, you’d see how he’d use the space given to him. When you see his stats from England, where there’s very little space compared to Spain, he’s an extraordninary player already. I can’t remember any other 22 yo winger with his impact on the game… can you?
November 17th, 2007 at 12:21
Hey Thomas, this is a good discussion, I honestly believe in what I’m saying, and you have some good counter-arguments.
Yes, I honestly think Messi is much better than Ronaldo. I confess I have seen him play only 3-4 games this season, but I think his ball control on the ground is far better, and when he realises that a pass is the best option, he makes it. He does play in the Primera Liga, where there is more time available on the ball, but his first touch, the quickness with which he changes direction and accelerates is breath taking. Seeing him exchange passes with Iniesta or Ronaldinho or Deco can take your breath away.
True, Ronaldo has scored a lot of goals. But I think it is more due to his heading ability, physical presence and off the ball movement. These are very good attributes to have, no doubt, but I think when the shit hits the fan, and the team is under real pressure, Messi’s attributes are far more useful than Ronaldo’s. I personally think that if Messi continues improving at the rate that he has, and avoids injury, he will become far and away the best in the world in 3 seasons. He is also younger than Ronaldo.
It has to be said that even though they’re wingers, they’re completely different in style, I agree with you on that.
About football intelligence, Ronaldo’s skills are not borne out of intelligence or quickness of thought. He is just incredibly fit, and he has been practising them like Beckham would practise his free kicks. This is truly praise worthy, but I don’t know if it puts him in the ’special’ category. For all his tricks, Ronaldo hardly ever beats his man cleanly. Messi does this time and time again. What Ronaldo is good at, is creating space by making good runs of the ball, and when he has the ball on the by-line, he can usually gain a yard on his marker and put in a cross. This isn’t due to his skill, its usually due to sheer pace.
Messi on the other hand, has tremendous ball control and changes his direction at will. He reminds me of Georgie Best, even though I have only seen clips of Bestie playing.
A great illustration of the difference between Ronaldo and Messi is the goal that Messi scored against Getafe last season. I can’t imagine Ronaldo scoring a goal like that, and I don’t think he ever has. The closest he has come is the goal at Craven Cottage last season. That was a great goal, and showed tremendous pace and determination, but technically, Messi’s goal was superior. I hope I am proven wrong, and Ronaldo becomes undisputably the best in the world at some stage, but I don’t see it happening.
November 17th, 2007 at 13:01
I have to agree with kramer here. Messi has a much better eye for the pass, he’s better at beating players one on one and he has better acceleration from a standing position especially when turning his marker. Tomas I agree that since he plays in a different league that could make a big difference. I have seen early all of his matches this year and even when he is marked out of the game he seems to produce at least two moments of brilliance, Ronaldo can be marked out of a game completely. Ronaldo is less intelligent football wise because he makes the wrong decision more often than Messi does. The only thing Ronaldo beats Messi on is physical presence,(which is one of the reasons he is good in England, Messi probably wouldn’t do as well)shooting ability and good positional sense. Now although I still think Messi is a better player I think Ronaldo is important to us because, since we don’t have a 20 goal a season striker we need a regular midfield scorer, and Ronaldo is that player. He’s probably been our most important player this season, which can be said for Messi as well, and I am delighted we have a player of his quality. But Messi is better.
November 17th, 2007 at 13:34
Actually, I agree with almost everything k9 says
lack of aerial ability, no genius, no leader, etc.
The -problem with the article is in the comparison to past greats - and just as the boob tube magnifies events, our minds and especially our memories play subtle tricks on us. Zizou or Di Stefano or Puskas were great, but are legends because of the years of adoration that has followed them, not the other way around.
In other words, while this current team is far from perfect, comparing it to hallucinations of ‘greatness’ is mindbogglingly shortsighted.
Surprised that no one else saw it. Does that make me a genius?
November 17th, 2007 at 14:10
Well written article K9 although I have to disagree with some of it. The article would seem to be a critical look at SAF’s assertion that this is his best squad. If that is the case how can you criticise the team for not having a Zidane, Puskas or Maradonna when none of the previous squads in the SAF era had them. Similarly none of the midfields under SAF have really had that much aerial presence and I would consider the current midfield as having a comparable aerial ability to the 94 and 99 teams.
I also feel football intelligence is a bit of a misnomer, last year’s team rarely got bogged down in a deadlock and other than a small shaky patch at the start of this season neither has the current team. And it isn’t as if a team with Cantona or Zidane in it were always able to break down their opponents in a tight game.
I do have to agree with the leadership issue though. There are plenty of good leaders in the current team but there is no one on a par with Keane, Robson or Cantona. Maybe Rooney could develop and eventually step up to this level but that is all in the future, for now we have to make do with what we have. As a slight aside, from own my perspective, there seems to have been a notable erosion of the importance of captains in football in recent years. So maybe this is less of an issue than we think. Still I would have loved Keane out there leading the troops in the recent game at the Emirates.
November 17th, 2007 at 14:14
I can’t see why Ronaldo’s aerial ability shouldn’t be included in the overall evaluation of a player… can either of you see Messi score the 2 headers Ronaldo scored against Kiev and Blackburn? I can’t. And doesn’t his ability to use both feet count for something? I’ve never seen Messi score anything but tapins with his right foot, which he uses mostly to keep balance. What I’m saying is that they are different players. There have been NO player in the history of football that mastered every aspect of the game, and neither will Messi nor Ronaldo. As I’ve written before, brilliance comes in many forms, and to me Ronaldo has the attributes to be the best ever.
Kramer - I saw Messi against Getafe (a game Barca lost 2-0), where Messi was completely taken out of the game and didn’t produce anything worth mentioning. And claiming that Ronaldo has been marked out of a game completely this season is simply wrong. He may have been invisible at times, but he’s had a foot in every win so far.
I appreciate that Messi has some different skills from Ronaldo, but it’s got nothing to do with football intellgence. Perhaps Messi’s more frequent passing is due to him not being strong enough at times, where Ronaldo is able to reject a challenge on the body. Also rememer that Barcelona plays diffently from Man Utd. and move way more inwards. In fact that’s all Barcelona do. Every player move inwards to play on small areas, and that’s why they are struggling in the league. Is it so intelligent of Messi to move inwards all the time, when there is no space to play at all, because the opposition have figured them out?
Don’t get me wrong, to me Messi is definitely one of the best players out there, but it seems to me, that you (Kramer and Grognard) are so locked into the idea that Messi is far better than Ronaldo. I don’t know if you underestimate Ronaldo or overestimate Messi. To me they are both among the top 5 players today, and I don’t think you can distinguish that clearly the strength of players of their quality and with their (different) ability.
November 17th, 2007 at 14:28
I have to say that agreeing with this article must be some form of belief that one knows more about football than average Joe. It’s so intent on finding flaws that most of the issues are actually not interesting when debating this team.
No leader - there’s plenty of leadership, and maybe the strength of the team is that there is no Keane out there. We have so many flair players that Keane would never allow to play as freely, as they are allowed to atm.
No aerial ability - why even mention this issue, since it’s clearly not an issue for SAF. Had he been concerned, he’d have brought in players, who were good in the air. Obviously he doesn’t share your concern, and don’t think you know more about the game than our manager through 21 years. When he says this is his best squad ever, he means it. That’s not to say it’s perfect, by no means. But he’s constructed a team designed to play on the ground with strong defensive headers.
No Zidane - teams with this type of player are often very dependent on him. SAF has built a team with so much flair and so many “match-turners”, who are allowed to play and run freely around the pitch (in an organized manner of course). If the ball had to find the feet of a Zidane in every attack, this type of game wouldn’t be possible. Tevez and Rooney couldn’t play together, because “Zidane” would have the ball all the time, which would mean that Tevez falling back wouldn’t be as effecient.
To me you guys are trying (in your heads) to construct a team that SAF isn’t interested in having, so why should it be better than what we have, which is a team that wins every game it’s involved in atm?
November 17th, 2007 at 14:59
couldnt agree more with TOMAS.there is no better player than ronaldo at the moment.messi?in uganda we have a privilege of watching both leagues,but one thing.messi is inconsistent.remember chealsea? rangers?marked by bolarouz?
November 17th, 2007 at 15:06
Tomas: That is a harsh view of Keane. He was not set against flair players, he only berated players for being lazy or doing stupid things. If a flair player tried something to open up a defence and it failed no problem. If they did some tricks that were not appropriate for the situation, lost the ball and made no effort to get it back, then they got an earful. In addition in his later years Keane grew increasingly frustrated both by the direction the team was going in and his own physical limitations. For someone who demanded 100% from everyone around him it must have been difficult when he could no longer provide that level of performance himself. In retrospect Keane should have been replaced much sooner (ie at the end of the 02/03 season, 03/04 at the latest) but he was as fine a leader as you could ask for until near the end of his career with us. I have heard Utd players say that a single ‘well done’ after a game from Keane meant more to them than any amount of platitudes from anyone else. He may have been a hard taskmaster but he inspired those around him and there is no one in the current squad that I would back to fact down Vieira like Keane did in 2005.
November 17th, 2007 at 17:53
Tomas; I for one have seen nearly every game played by Barcelona in the last years. Here in Canada we have a channel called GOLTV that broadcasts nearly every game of both Barca and Real. I have watched Messi play in about 50 matches and over a dozen matches involving Argentina. Sorry mate but he is so far ahead of MY BELOVED Ronaldo, it’s not even debatable.
Kramer already wrote a great description comparing the two differences in ability and style, so I’ll add a few more other points by first saying that Leo Messi will be in the category with Maradona and Pele when he retires. Please understand this, Ronaldo is my second favorite player on the planet (my first is Riquelme). I love Ronny and all his abilites and trickery. He is a delight but he has his limits. Quite often he is marked out of a game because smart defenders know what’s coming, either a step over or back to side heel like his last goal against Kiev. Yes he is a good header of the ball but Messi is also. Messi is also great at heading in congesteded crowds or diving low to spectaculary head a ball. Ronaldo is also capable of this but lets not forget he has a considerable height advantage on Leo. Still, Messi is great in the air, period.
Ronaldo has years to improve elements of his game that he is not as strong at yet. What you mistake for a strong football mind, I decribe as basic instinct (not the movie). His running off the ball has more instinct and a general nose for the ball which is very admirable. That is why he scores so many headers and goals in the box for a winger. On the ball he is far more intelligent than 90% of the players playing today but he still makes selfish decisions that hurt his team. His moves are sweet but he does give up possession far too often and his tracking back on defense is not as good as Messi who is also tenacious in tracking back and who is also a surprisingly excellent tackler.
Ronaldo does wonderful things with the ball but Messi with his burst of speed and vision makes fools of those defending him and when he is being marked well in a game, it’s usually two players who have been given the role to watch him. Now Ronaldo also has a a burst of speed but if the two were to run the 100 meters in a race, Messi would get the jump and win the race. When Ronaldo scores it’s wonderful to watch sometimes, when Messi scores, quite often it is just sheer MAGIC and GENIUS. I have said in the past that when Messi has the ball, the game seems to go into slow motion while he stays at normal seed.
Ronaldo and Messi have great potential but Messi has more natural bread, god given talent where Ronaldo has a lot of skill that he has worked hard to create. Yes he has God given talent too, but just not as much in my humble opinion. As for Ronny’s free kicks, he may be working hard like Beckham to improve on them but it’s not working. He needs to offer more than just the one dimensional style which is rear back and drive it hard with no spin. He needs to add the old “bend it like Beckham” style to his repertoire. Watch the true free kick
present day legends like Riquelme, Ronaldinho, Beckham, Pirlo. They do it with finesse and the occasional hard one. That’s a good word FINESSE. That is what Ronaldo has plenty of but he needs to add some hard skill to his game. He is a good passer, but he could be a great passer. When K9 talks about our lack of aerial abiity, he is not talking about Ronaldo’s heading, he is talking about Ronaldo’s, Nani’s, Evra’s, Brown’s inability to get in a quality cross to our forwards who are not that great in the air to begin with (although Tevez is not bad for his height). The 98-99 team had Beckham, Neville, Giggs etc for quality crosses in to the box and it had quality headers of the ball in Cole, Yorke, Sheringham and Ole.
Final thought regarding Scholes. Paul Scholes for me will always go down as one of the greats of this game. He was the ginger assassin for me. Great skills and great passion. In the past two seasons he was forced to play a role that really went contrary to his style. This was no fault of his but his game had changed and he was forced to be more defensive as well as playing the role of a ball retainer than an attacking midfielder. He was never a great ball winner because he was a terrible tackler. This role hadn’t changed much up to his injury. He has slowed down a bit and his great through balls have gone missing but he was still a very intelligent and competent player on the field. Unfortunately his new style, diminishing pace and reluctance to attack had slowed down this new team brimming with fast creative players.
Is he washed up? Well with this knee surgery, maybe, but my point is that his style is just not conducive to our new way of playing. We have Hargo now for those duties. Carrick has also fallen into the same pattern based on his role from last season. The problem for me with Carrick is that Carrick on his best offensive day is not as good as Scholes on his best offensive day. Scholsy was just more dynamic with the added ability to score goals. What we need as that “MAESTRO” in that attacking midfield position is a Paul Scholes circa 1998-2003.
Anderson may or may not be that guy. But this I know, it’s not Scholes right now nor is it Carrick.
November 17th, 2007 at 18:47
Tomas; Roy Keane was a leader and one of the most intelligent players of his time. To think that he would not allow Rooney, Ronaldo etc the freedom of expression is wrong. He just wouldn’t tolerate not tracking back, selfishness and stupidity. The game is all about one on one. To take that out of a player’s arsenal, would be against the player and the game. Chances are that Ronaldo today would probably be a greater player than he already is if Keane was on the pitch to scold him when he goes into selfish mode. Keane was always ok about free expression. He just shouts at players if the work ethic isn’t there and if they totally forget that their are 10 other on the pitch with them. Every team needs an on field General. Keane was simply the best at it.
November 17th, 2007 at 19:31
Completely disagree with almost everything you wrote in that article. No one pulling the strings? Nobody who can unlock a solid defence? Do me a favour. Have you even watched any United games this season? Tevez has been pulling strings since he arrived, too many players on the back foot early on prevented him from making a more immediate impact. But now, now he’s doing a great job and is at times controlling the tempo of our attack. Along with players like Rooney, Nani, Ronaldo, Anderson, Giggs and Scholes who have all contributed to unlocking defences.
Hargreaves and Anderson were outstanding against Arsenal. They may not have won anny headers in the midfield but how often do Arsenal play longball? Yeah, hardly ever. They snuffed out nearly everything Fabregas and Co. could create in the first half. Why are people so obsessed with being able to win high balls into the box? You said youself, nearly all our goals are scored comfortably playing on the ground to feet. Your looking for a problem that doesn’t exist. Or do you want to see United adopt a long ball policy just to accomodate your love of “winning headers in the box”?
Daft.
Finally, you seem to be whining about morale, when clearly morale is sky high at the moment. So we don’y have a balling and shouting Captain in the mould of Keane, but surely you don’t need remining that Keane was often responsible for a complete loss of self control by the team. Keane was an immense player and one of the best Captains we’ve ever had, but there is more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak. As vitriolic as Keane’s leadership was, it was not without it’s draw backs, namely Keane losing it big time, and the rest of the team following. We have different types of winners now. Yes they sulk sometimes when things aren’t going there way (Ronaldo), yes they lose their cool occassionally (Rooney, Scholes) but i’ve never seen any of United players give anything less than 100%. Thats supported by our impressive run of form. Some payers shout and scream, some sulk or kick people, i don’t care how they do it as long as they give everything, and these boys do.
I think your stuck for something worthwhile to write about and so resorted to an uncalled for criticism. Each to his own, though.
This team has something special, if you can’t see that, then it’s a shame for you mate.
November 18th, 2007 at 2:16
Keano didn’t mind the flair players who tracked back, but how does that corelate with the genious in midfield… neither Zidane nor Maradona ever tracked back that much, since they were allowed to use their energy on attacking.
And claiming that Messi is a great header of the ball is wrong, very wrong. He’d never get his head on any ball in England.
I’ll probably comment more, when I sober up later on (been celebrating my birthday this evening, cheers).
November 18th, 2007 at 11:55
K9, first i’d like to talk to you…… i really liked ur post…. u should contribute more often……
sadly though, i dont agree with most of what u’ve written…. u say the team lacks footballing intelligence… how do you define intelligence? personally, i believe footballing intelligence determines movement off the ball, reading the other team’s movement and positioning yourself to either recieve the ball in space or to break up opposition play…. creating outta thin air is pure ingenuity….. besides i believe we have plenty of both (i think the movement and passing in the last few games has proven that)… i will give you one thing, what we dont have is a genuine playmaker (one in the pirlo mode), scholes used to be that player, but something seems to be holding him back this season, and i dont believe that anderson will be one (i genuinely believe that he’d be better off playing in a supporting forward’s or a winger’s role)……..
i will not touch the issue of aerial ability, bcoz many teams in the past have proved that have to play to your strengths and not really worry about your weekness and as taehr pointed out, we seem to do a fair job in that department too….
as far as leadership is concerned, i dont really see much difference between rooney and keane except for the fact that you are comparing a 27-30 yr old keane to a 21 yr old rooney, even then keane wasnt a lot better than rooney when it came to keeping his temper in check, how many times did he loose it and got sent off for a rash tackle (while wearing that captain’s armband, i might add)… he played with passion, same as rooney, tevez and even ronaldo…… they drive the team forward and guys like ferdinand, van der saar and neville (when fit) discipline the team… and give hargreaves time, he’ll give us the same fire in the middle of the park that keane was famous for…… true, we dont have one leader, but this is a team that has a lot of strong characters who get the job done……
now, i’d like to address the Messi vs Ronaldo issue…….. i’d like to compare all the aspects of their game to see who is better
to say that messi has more god given gifts and ronaldo has had to learn his trade by practice is over simplifying the comparison, not to mention an insult to both players, to ronaldo for not acknowledging his talent and to messi for not acknowledging his hardwork… ronaldo is as gifted as messi is, only he’s been blessed with a DIFFERENT set of gifts!!! let me elaborate…
messi, is lightning quick, changes directions suddenly and at will, he has tremendous close control to the extent that the ball seems to be glued to his feet! lets not for get that messi is 5ft 6in, has a low center of gravity and is really light… the ball control is from years of practice and training……. ronaldo on the other hand has exemplary balance for a guy whose 6 ft 1 in, he DOES beat his players cleanly at will and has his own way of unbalancing players with his array of tricks, he’s got great upperbody strenght so when he fails to beat a player cleanly, he can still salvage the situation with brute strength (something messi can’t), he can also get up and head the ball, messi has the technique but lacks in size (i will still not hold that against him) ….. lets call this a TIE
as far as getting marked out of the games is concerned, they both pose different threats simply coz they play in different systems…. messi gets to play with not one, not two, but THREE playmakers!!(ronaldinho, deco and xavi) who know how to get the ball to a player… he makes sure that he has some space on the right flank (he’s almost exclusively there all the time) everyone knows he’s gonna be there, so it can be countered, but it isnt because ronaldinho is on the other flank, and when ur playing in the same team as a 2 time world footballer of the year, ur always gonna be second choice when it comes to being marked so he can stay there and simply has to beat one player to the ball….. ronaldo is the top dog in his team, but he’s never in the same place for long, he recieves the ball all across the pitch, so he either finds a pocket for himself or leaves some space behind him for someone else on the team to exploit…. it will be interesting to see when the barca team is finally built around messi to see how his movement off the ball changes… the jury’s still out on this one, but advantage ronaldo
the one factor that really stands out is messi’s ability to play for the team, this is one quality, ronaldo doesnt appreciate…. he confuses his own performance with that of his team… a prime example is his game against kiev at OT… his desperation to get onto the score sheet, or his efforts to score that hat-trick against blackburn shows that he does have some amount of selfishness… that is the only reason why i’d rate messi over ronaldo as of now… but clearly both have much to learn and lot of room for improvement…
November 18th, 2007 at 12:44
On Messi and Ronaldo, I’m going to have to agree that Messi has more natural talent than Ronnie. I love watching Ronaldo but his tricks and dribbling style have a mechanical look to them, which I would assume is down to a lot of practise on them. Compare him to Messi (or closer to home, Giggs) who has a much smoother and natural style when running with the ball. However it is important not to underestimate Ronaldo’s physical attributes, particularly with the game’s development causing increased focus on physical prowess.
Skill and vision are only components of what make a great player, and I feel that they are often (unfairly) given more weighting than other attributes. Keane wasn’t particularly skilful, yet he was one of the finest midfielders of his generation because of all his other attributes. Ronaldo last season scored 23 goals, had a similar number of assists, won a couple of penalties he did not take and hit a couple of free kicks that set up goals (not included in assist count). So that is 50 goals coming directly through Ronaldo, you can’t ask much for much more from him (other than a bit more impact in a couple of our bigger matches), even Messi would struggle to match that level of output for a season.
Now I think Messi has more potential than Ronnie and will turn out to be the better player but by the same token lets not turn the difference between them into a chasm, because the gap isn’t that big. I think the saying “the grass is always greener on the other side†is a suitable one in this case.
Now quickly back to Keane, I think some underestimate the importance of his leadership. Rooney is nowhere near his level, yes the red mist sometimes descended on Keane but his other abilities are unmatched in our current contingent. He had the ability to judge a situation on the field and increase or slow the tempo of the game as appropriate. He led by example, encouragement and by shouting and snarling, but through a combination of the methods he got that extra bit out of the players around him. At one point or another he faced many of the greatest players of his generation and seen them off. He ensured, even when things were going to hell, that the team maintained its tactical discipline and composure. The number of times he dragged the team out of the mire is beyond count and he was an inspiration. The current team has plenty of good leaders but none on a par with the man that I would consider to be the textbook example of how to captain a football team.
Tomas: If SAF set up a system where some maestro or genius was not required or expected to track back then Keane would have adjusted the bollockings he handed out appropriately. He was one of the most intelligent footballers about, not some stupid Ogre.
November 18th, 2007 at 19:15
Yeah, but SAF would never endorse a player not tracking back. Ronaldo doesn’t do it much, but he’s better at it now than when he arrived. It takes time to implement a different way of thinking football, and Ronaldo is from a country that allows players not tracking back, and so he was raised to use his energy attacking wise.
I’d never call Keane anything but a very very intelligent footballer… by far my favourite midfielder in the history of the club. But I’m not sure his style of leadership would suit this team, and I think that’s why he was released from his contract. SAF was modernising his team, and Keano didn’t fit the bill in his later years. A young Keano perhaps, but who’s to say we don’t have one in our team now? To me, Hargo can very well be the go-to guy, when things heat up. It’s just that the present team has so much flair that it is not as dependent on one leader out there to dictate the flow of the game. So many players can turn matches, and I think that’s what SAF had in mind, when he declared this his best team ever.
November 19th, 2007 at 1:57
agree that Ronny is way more limited on the pitch than messi but im convinced our boy Nani will
eclipse Ronny for the same reason- his footballin brain
November 19th, 2007 at 9:36
@Tomas - belated Happy Birthday! I hope you had a wonderful day.
I can’t believe I’m getting sucked into a debate regarding 2 of my favourite players?
Imo, both Messi and Ronaldo are gifted, and work very hard. (This about talent and hard work is bullshit. Cantona was talented, but even he admitted to having to practice much). both are very good and both have the ability to become legends.
I feel the bigest difference between them is as Grognard put it:
“…but he [Ronaldo] still makes selfish decisions that hurt his team”
Ronaldo does know when to play the perfect pass. He just tend to become a bit too selfish most of the time. In all fairness to him, it is what he is commisioned to do by SAF. He has a responsibility to score in this team. For this reason, he can be forgiven for acting selfish, like a striker.
November 19th, 2007 at 19:18
Thanks Karl.
I disagree that Ronaldo makes decisions that hurt the team. Last season he scored 23 goals and had 20 assists. These are remarkable stats, and noticing when he mispasses or doesn’t pass at all is discrediting him. Not to forget that he probably had the second last foot on as many goals as he had direct assists. His attacking abilities are extraordinary, and it’s all pure talent. You cannot achieve those stats without pure talent, and claiming that he’s had to work harder than the ever so naturally gifted Messi and that his moves are more mechanical as a result of this hard work is rediculous to me. And it’s also coming from people praying on a player simply to appear more knowledgable about the game than people watching Ronaldo on a day to day basis on the training ground (SAF and his staff).
Ronaldo is the most direct player in the world today. Everything he does is designed to be a threat. Add to that the fact that he’s involved in so many game deciding situations because of his power, speed and movement. This leaves a player that, if he didn’t make any mistakes or badly timed passes, would be superhuman. And even if decisions that hurt the team would take away from a players status as a truly great, then where would that leave Zidane who on numerous occasions were send off for losing his temper? Every player - even the greats - has had flaws.
No question Ronaldo has worked really really hard on his game in quite a few years now, but no top player has never had to work hard, and you can’t break difference in style down to more or less naturally gifted.