Nov 03
Arsenal vs Man Utd: Preview
A very good morning to you all, depending on where you are reading this from. Today, Arsenal host Man Utd at the Emirates Stadium in a lunch time kick off. I know, this lunch time thing is not quite so popular with many fans in the UK. But again, with a game like this there wouldn’t be too many complaints. The atmosphere would be as intense as it has always been.
Then again, depending on which part of the world you are the timing would be either perfect or would be downright uncomfortable.
We stop digressing and move on to the main topic of the day, which is Football Manager 2008 the Arsenal game.
The press has been salivating over this encounter and so are we. Personally, there is this tinge of excitement about the game mixed with fear that arises over a certain degree of grudging respect for the opposition. The press, meanwhile, has talked at length about the Keane-Viera encounters of the past, and depending on the bias on the part of a journalist, you will have got a certain picture about the game.
Arsene Wenger says that this game will be a masterpiece. We all do hope for such a masterpiece, with the difference that we will emerge triumphant at the end.
SAF termed it a “mouthwatering prospect” while saying a few words about the importance of winning things at the end of the day:
“In a few years’ time I want to be saying that my players are the best in the world because at this moment in time they are showing those signs,” said Ferguson. “But maturity brings the authority and consistency, and what is also important is what have they won?”
Very true indeed. While we talk a lot about Arsenal’s kids, it remains to be seen if they can win it with what they have, so far. If they do, then fair play to them. The same applies to us, despite us winning the title last season. That hunger to win things is what has driven both managers to such long term tenures at their respective clubs.
Anyway, on to the players who’ll make today’s game, Wenger hinted that Gilberto might actually make the starting XI against United. His appearance in their Carling Cup stroll over Sheffield United might have been an opportunity to give the Brazilian a run out. I suppose, Wenger would prefer to play his experience over Flamini. It must also be noted that if we play Anderson, Gilberto has had a close look at the lad when they went for their Copa America tournament in the summer.
Moving on to our squad, Carrick and Saha (surprise, surprise!) have been included. Whilst, it is unlikely that Saha would start, Carrick’s situation represents a dilemma for the boss. The player does offer a fair bit to the team by keeping things simple. Ball retention is vital in such games. But Anderson has seemed to be the more penetrative one — who, in the presence of Hargreaves, has been allowed to roam freely sending his pin point passes. Playing Anderson would be a bold move, something I would applaud the boss for doing. But if he decided to play Carrick, I wouldn’t be too worried.
My main worry would be if he chucked the 4-4-2 formation in favour of a three man midfield that would leave one striker upfront on his own. That would mean a very cagey approach by us. I would love it if the team remained the same as the last one.
Don Howe, who is an Arsenal fan, writes in the Telegraph on tactics and training and makes for an interesting read.
Vidic is fully focused ahead of the game and has vowed to ensure a clean sheet. Getting that against a rampant Arsenal side would represent a psychological victory for the defence. Our defenders were guilty, in the last couple of games, of conceding goals that were borne out of some basic defending errors. I put that down to them not being as intense as they were at the start (when goals were hard to come by) and seemed rather confident that our attack would overhaul any deficit. This kind of an attitude, though, would be suicidal today.
For more match related details, the BBC has a comprehensive preview here.
Meanwhile Owen Hargreaves thinks that he needs to take good care of his knee so that his problems do no resurface.
The game promises to be a cracker and I will certainly be up for this one. Here’s hoping we thump them at their backyard, after their sickening double over us last year.
Come on you reds!!! Bring on Arsenal!
Prediction: 2-1 to United, Rooney, Tevez to score.
Feel free to discuss away before, during and after the game. I may or may not update the title of this post. Depending on how engrossed in the game I will be.
Related items from Red Rants:
- Porto it is then…
- Man Utd v Stoke: Preview
- GOAL VIDEOS: Manchester United v Arsenal
- Man Utd v Everton: Preview
- Man Utd v Spurs match thread
Tags: Manchester United News
Opti (541)
Stephen (487)
RedDevilEddy (461)
Craig Mc (348)
Moscow is my heaven (272)
Well it should have been a win , however the defense had other thoughts.I thought United played very well , as fergie knew that the guys would definetly score in counter attack.
Positives:
Rooney Anderson Giggs are all big match players , no doubt about that.Saha showed what he can do in such a less time.This guy if he plays for more than half the season the goal scoring will even double.
Cons:Ferdinand was not upto par. He and VDS surely should have saved the second goal . More attacking role should be given to Evra like Clichy. This guy might make mistakes in defense , but he has capacity to cause serious damage in EPL.Giggs was awesome but the age refelected in second half , Nani should have come in instead of him
The Defense will take a HUGE BEATING FROM FERGIE . WE Should have WON but HEY we have 4 points so far against the likes of Chelsea and Arsenal….
GREAT FUTURE LIES AHEAD:
UTD has so far played 7 away matches out of 13
ARSE on the other hand 4 away matches out of 12
WE have also already faced most of toughest away fixtures like Villa Everton Pompey City and Arsenal . If we can repeat what we did last season in chelsea and liverpool away ,and win against newcastle i think we have nothing to worry abt….
Grognard i seriously can understand ur views , i can clearly visualize how AWESOME united can play
with the talent we have BUT HEY I would definetly say we are in driver seat because of a lot of factors :
we have played important away matches.
the team has already molded quickly even though 4 new guys have come in and have been asked to start immediately.
The Most important factor is we have got important points when the Injury Cycle was at the MAX in the beginning of the season itself . Can u imagine arsenal playing without likes Of RVP adebayor toure eboue hleb etc. if they face injury AND REMEMBER AFRICAN NATIONS CUP !
So Nothing to worry abt guys , we should have won but hey last season we were the champions even when we lost to arsenal twice and drew against chelsea
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Rick; Your points are well taken. One thing that you are definitely emphasizing is that the EPL is not a one match go for glory competition. It’s a marathon race and teams have to pace themselves accordingly. On that basis perhaps Fergie’s gameplan was correct but I still don’t like our very saggy zone defense and our defense is starting to show major cracks. I think Rio is either hurting or he is just tired. Either way, he should sit out a match. Evra is fine when he moves forward and sends in low psses or cuts them back but he is a horrible crosser of the ball. His one attempt today went into the cheap seats. What we need is Neville. We need to be able to attack with overlapping runs from both sides, not just the left. We also need our central midfielders to move in to positions where they can take more shots. Right now defenders are not fearing either Anderson, Hargreaves, Scholes (when healthy) or Carrick when it comes to teeing one up form under 20 yards.
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Just a quick mention of Wes browns postioning for the first goal, completely caught ball watching. Haregreaves early booking hurt, as he was much more confined. Thought Anderson was sensational and i think he will become a far superior player to cesc(big statement yes, but he really impressed). Suprised about nanis lack of involvemnt, but really happy to see saha back in action. Finally i thought defensively both our wings looked vulnerable against Arsenals wingers, Evra nd Brown for me had a bad day defensively(Brown not so much). Ronaldo once again missing for LONG periods of time in big games…
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Does anybody know of a site where I can see the highlights? I couldn’t see it here in the states. Thanks.
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I didn’t see the game but was following it on my phone with live commentary and have since seen the highlights. I was over the moon when Ronny scored and didn’t check again until the end and was completely heartbroken when it said Gallas had scored. It was a major downer for the rest of the day but looking back I suppose it’s a pretty good result all things considered.
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There seems to be an unrealistic expectation and possibly even ungratefulness around some elements of the United support. Some seem to believe we can just waltz into any team’s back yard and play them off the park but that is not always possible. There are times when the head must rule over the heart. Our style of attack is a quick and incisive; when we go on the attack we often look for the killer blow within 5 passes. However if the opposition is defending well/we aren’t at our best it can mean possession is turned over quite frequently. This is not an issue against most teams as we can regain possession without much bother. Arsenal are not one of those teams as they can easily starve you of possession for long periods, therefore it necessitated a tactical change in SAF’s eyes. Also given their ability on the ball in tight situations, a man marking system high up the pitch is extremely difficult to implement against Arsenal. Therefore we throw up a solid black wall up infront of our box and invite Arsenal to try and pick the lock.
Did it work? Yes. Arsenal created one chance of note in the first chance in the first half, a set piece. In the second half, presumably buoyed be the goal the lads decided to go for the throat and started pushing high up the pitch. In their eagerness to press Anderson and Hargreaves moved far away from the backline for the first time in the match and lo and behold, Arsenal mange to pick the lock.
First goal itself, was Evra out of position? No, he was closely marking Sagna, who managed to do well to get the ball to Fabregas. On Rio, did he have a lapse in concentration? No, he followed standard procedure, when you are the close man to goal and your keeper has been forced out of position, get on the line to cover until the situation has stabilised. Want a scapegoat for the goal, Hargreaves let his man go and Wes was standing gawping when he could have been over covering Fabregas.
Second goal, a long cross, a few ricochets, havoc in the defence and we let one in. Unfortunate but it happens, how anyone can blame VDS is beyond me. But the type of goal is important. We had repulsed the ‘Best Team in the World’ (Trademark of the Sky Corporation) beautiful, wonderful passing game and they had resorted to hurling long balls into the box.
Yes the late defending was shoddy but the tactics were sound (I have seen poster on Arsenal Mania and RedandWhiteKop comment on how SAF had won the tactical battle) and were 90 seconds away from producing a really good professional hard earned win. Of course I prefer free flowing football but I can appreciate the value of doing a job on someone.
This is a good result as long as it isn’t allowed to dent the players confidence significantly. A good result against Kiev and Blackburn are now required to ensure that we quickly get back on the right track and keep a high level of pressure on Arsenal.
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United were better than arse-anal. Good performance, cant doubt it under the circumstances. I still see some of our self proclaimed lousy supporters moaning.. But hey then they wont be what they are-…Elaboration on other times.
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Well said JB and I agree with parts of your assessment, Grognard, but not a lot of it I am afraid.
Plenty of thoughts on the game on what could have been, and a lot more of that. Will let all this sink in and get out a match report in.
At the moment, still terribly gutted at the late, late goal so will collect my thoughts and get back with a match report tomorrow.
Cheers.
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Grognard u r bang on target .. The person we miss most is Neville . He may be slow , but his crosses are always bang on target . Well Rio is good but the mistakes by LB or RB gets badly reflected on him.I also agree to the part where anderson and hargo have to take few shots on goal.However it is still shocking as well as amazing to see that arsenal is the only top 50 team where CB`s have a major role in offense and in FIELD GOALS ! I think the jinx is soon going to be back on them . Their entire build up play today was setting up goals for Fabgas . I am happy that we r not in such a position where we are dependent on one guy ALONE to score goals !(lfools Gerrard
)
May be i m the .1% utd fan who supports Saha
. He is just like Rooney . When there is a big match , his performance is invaluable. Today , Tevez was totally out of the picture . Saha`s Chest control , headers , off the pitch runs shows him as a classic unique centre forward . He is similar to Berbatov .He seems to create his own goal.The one against chelseas reading , this season also he scored a important header , getting us 3 valuable points. I still think if this guy can stay injury free , he will create and score a hell lot of goals. (I hope we donot get any news saying “Saha gets injured ,while getting on bus:P )
Well i seriously cant understand one thing Euphoria amongst the various arsenal supporters and bloggers . I do congratulate them on their excellent , marvellous performance . But it is JUST 12 MATCHES FOR CHRIST` SAKE. And the lead is just 3 points ! WE all know how bad things will get messed up in month of April and i guess in that time the next round of top3 comes for them , liverpool , chelsea & UTd away.
I must admit , i m still over the cloud
becos no other team other than utd can manage winning with such high margin considering the inform guys of last season , the likes of Ronaldo ROoney Saha Carrick Scholes (THAT IS VIRTUALLY FRONT 6) being absent most of the matches till now in rotation as well as the 4 new guys replacing them to their capacity !
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Cheers Redranter, I sometimes feel there is about to be a mass suicide every time we so much as drop a point!
Rick: The reason Anderson and Hargreaves weren’t getting shots in was tactical, SAF in recent years as kept the CM pretty tight to the backline to try and cut down on the room Arsenal need to play their way through.
Agree on Saha, in hindsight he may have been the better choice today. Given that we were playing quite deep his presence would have meant more balls would have stuck when they were cleared up the field. But I wouldn’t have liked to have to make the call to break up the Tevez/Rooney partnership before the game for the man of glass.
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And for those of you who missed the game, here’s a repeat telecast going on. Windows media streaming.
Hurry, 10 minutes into the first half as I type this CLICK
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JB agree to the part where Hargo and Anderson weren’t getting shots for tatical reasons . However i would like them to have a shot once in a while , especially anderson , he seems to enter excellent attacking positions , it is just a matter of time we see him score.
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I’m pleased everyone seems to be on the same wavelength as me regarding Saha. I think he is an undervalued part of the side and we definitely need to include him in more first team opportunities before he looks elsewhere for games.
I’d also like to see Anderson getting more shots away, but I see where you are coming from about SAF’s tactics. He certainly looks very promising. As for Hargreaves, well isn’t Fergie of the opinion that midfielders like him have actually had a better game if they don’t see much of the ball? Or did he just mean Carrick when he said that?
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JB; It’s not about dropping points. It’s about not taking the foot off the throttle and never compromising your standards. I for one do not believe that playing a defensive game against an outstanding offense is the best strategy. Attack an arrogant outfit like Arsenal. Put pressure on them like they are not accustomed to. Liverpool had a great chance to do that at Anfield and Benitez out thought himself. You talk about Arsenal’s possession game, well what about ours. Personally, I think they had a lot more to worry from us than we did from them. Take Fabregas out of their side and I seriously doubt that they will operate like a well oiled machine. None of their other attackers are in the same league with Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldo and Saha on a good day.
The problem I have and why it seems like I am overreacting every time we drop points is that four years ago Arsenal set and established a high bar of excellence. They went undefeated. Three years ago Chelsea only lost one match. The standards are different than ten years ago. Today you cannot expect to lose 5-7 games a season and still win the EPL unless you have few draws and the rest are victories. That’s what happened to us last year. You must play your “A GAME” every weekend or you will lose ground. Look at Chelski. They were off to a terrible start and now they are three points behind. Why? Because both leaders let them get closer.
Fergie’s tactics lacked ambition and lacked courage. They showed far too much respect for a very good albeit very inexperienced team. I firmly believe that Arsenal would crumble against an all out attack. Their back four are very good but suspect in the air and on wide balls sent in to the box (so how did we score our two goals?) their midfielders do not like contact and do not defend that well. We missed an opportunity to make a statement of pride and declaration.
Sure the result is not terrible and I guess I’ll delay cutting my wrists this week but lets put this game in it’s proper perspective. It was an early season over-hyped game that probably doesn’t really matter in the overall scheme of things. Unless of course we end up losing the title by one point. Who this game was very important to was Manchester United and it’s supporters. It’s not about the points. It’s about the pride and ego from beating your top rival in their barn. It’s about bragging rights. We almost pulled it off despite our negative tactics, but in the end those tactics and our lack of solid and quality defending cost us. And JB, I’m sorry but Ferdinand’s response on the first goal is not to go to the goal line but to take the open man five yards in front of him. This was not a bloody corner kick. Hargreaves had his man as he was marking the man who was right on EVDS. The goal scorer in that situation should have been marked by Rio. And Rio diving to parry a ball from getting into the box and thus preventing the calamity the produced goal number two would have been appreciated. A little more effort from the big fellow. Sometimes you have to leave your feet or dive. No one but myself seems to be blaming Ronaldo for his poor marking on Clichy for that cross. At that stage in the game all our players should stick to our opponents like glue. Ronny clearly gave him five yards of space to get his ball in.
Just a very frustrating afternoon of what ifs.
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Fucking hurts 2 min only 2 min!anywayz it wasnt too be.now i am sure the league is ours!
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i must admit that the defense is really starting to concern me……. today i saw nothing but nervous and desperate defending and both the goals were simply down to defensive breakdowns and panick in the box on the part of a relatively experienced back four……. going forward i think we did fine even though there were not that many clear cut opportunities apart from 2 that we took…..
lets give fergie a thumbs up for not going all defensive and trying to smother the game…. we crticized him sometimes last year of playing to cautiously in the crunch games (most notably at milan and against chelsea at wembley) so its nice to see the team play their own brand of football regardless of the opposition…. if we can step up on the defensive side of the park, i think this team has the potential to win games, even the big games away from home
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what a shockin end to the match from the lads today….3minutes to keep the ball away from our
fukin box n we shat it.overall i thought again that we went out today to stifle arsenals play
as aposed to playin our own stlye of foos. dont think were particularly good at playin that 451 as naturally were a more attackin team. In season proved it showd in europe especially. I now reckn that with our new signings however we can get the right balance wit that formation BUT nani’s place in the starin 11 is essential. with giggs in the middle of he park the game passes him by….its almost embarrsin to watch. in all fairness today i thot he put in one of his better performances but i have no doubt we’d have won the game if he’d been subd for nani on 70mins. the osehea/ wes brown substitution was fukin pointless- a waste. Fukin ragin bout it all really! 1 positive thing i can take out the game was
the way in which we scored twice without having any real good individual performances ontop playin a relatively defensive game
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It is easy to sit at a computer and say we should never compromise our principles, we should go all out against every team, we should make a declaration etc. What is not easy is applying that in practice all the time. Arsenal offer a very, very different challenge to any other team domestically. Do I think we are more ruthless, yes I do. I believe we are stronger, faster, more experienced, have a deeper squad, a better keeper and a stronger defence. Do I think we are better at ball retention (particularly under pressure), no. Only Barcelona currently match Arsenal in that respect. That makes facing Arsenal, especially on their own patch and in the form they are in, a different proposition to what we normally face because they are the only domestic side that is consistently capable of starving us of possession.
Ergo SAF designed a strategy to combat this. I agree a defensive strategy is not always the best policy against a good offence, but given the opposition, style and circumstance I would regard the choice a good one. Particularly since only a late lapse of defensive concentration cost us and it wasn’t as if, other than that incident, we were hanging on for dear life.
On Rio, for the first goal VDS went wide left to block Adebayor, Rio was the last man back and wasn’t marking a man at that point, so he followed the standard defending procedures and went to cover the goal line while his goalkeeper was out of position. This is because he is then in position to try and clear the ball if Adebayor knicks it past VDS. That situation is far more likely than the ball working its way back to Fabregas and so Rio rightly played the percentage game. He has saved us goals on a number of occasions by doing exactly the same thing. On Hargreaves, he had 2 yards on Adebayor but managed to loose him allowing him the header on goal. On goal 2 I’ve had a look and Rio doesn’t look close enough to clear the ball (unless his legs are elastic). But I suppose to make you feel better he could have made a token slash/lunge at it, left himself lying on the ground and been unable to intervene in the rest of the Arsenal attack.
I will agree with you about Ronaldo, but lackadaisical defending and tracking back is the price we have to pay with him. I assume as a big advocate of Riqueleme you can appreciate the issue here.
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JB; Nice rub with the Riquelme remark. I guess you and I will just agree to disagree. I just don’t see the game the way you do. I too watched the game and froze it in sections and I am convinced Rio blundered on both situations. Adebayor had EVDS and others to worry about. Rio is CB. His job is to clear the front of goal. Not live on the goal line unless positioned there from a free kick. I’ve played and coached the game and I would never tell my CB to track back to the goal line in that situation. His responsibility was to take the Fabregas option away. Others had the responsibility for Adebayor.
Also, it’s not too much to ask Ronaldo to track back and cover a fullback or winger when there are seconds left in a game. I wouldn’t ask him to give that extra effort in the 54th minute, but in the 90th, I think so. And I greatly disagree with you about Rio needing elastic legs to get to that cross. No he didn’t he is over six feet tall and has very long legs. What he didn’t have was the desire to make the effort. Sure, he may have failed but he needed to make the effort. If the ball made it through than it really wouldn’t matter if he was on the ground and out of position because it probably would have been a goal, as it turned out to be. Last week we scored a goal because the defender failed to do the very same thing in a must situation.
Defensive concentration is vital but do you think it may just be more vital in the last five minutes of a match when the opposition is throwing everything including the kitchen sink at you? It’s inexcusable that the team had two defensive meltdowns in the game but to have the last one is unforgivable. Only teams like Tottenham lack the mental strength and fitness to fall apart like that. I expect as well as the United fan base demand more from our defense.
They let themselves, Fergie and all the fans down by not showing mental strength and discipline at the end. The open spaces were so wide you could have driven a train through them.
To say I am disappointed would be describing my feelings lightly. I love United dearly and in past years my attitude towards their play has not been so critical because I honestly could see weaknesses in their squad. This team is different. This team is a Greyhound built for speed and endurance. We didn’t dictate the terms today, bottom line. I am actually getting a little fed up watching the Ancelotti’s, Mourinho’s and Wenger’s of the world continually outsmart Fergie. To all of you who say the game plan worked to well, I say RUBBISH! We were lucky to draw and would have been considered thieves if we had won. Creating three scoring chances all day doesn’t light my fire. Not with the firepower we have on hand. Your points are well taken and you do make sense. I just see things differently. I think that is the North American in me. I’ve watched too much American football and hockey and I am used to good teams taking on other good teams by going for the jugular. We don’t think like Italians when it comes to attack. Right now I don’t feel good about the game because I wanted to win the sprint. I guess I’ll forget about it when we win the marathon.
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i’m looking at the match highlights and i cant help but agree with grognard……. rio ferdinand had a genuine chance of blocking the cross on the second goal….
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don’t know if anyone else commented on it but i am not happy with anderson’s play acting after the fabegras foul and for shoving an imaginary card in the refs face…. that CANNOT happen . . gotta stamp those (habits?) tendencies out of his game while he’s still young
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yeaa..very true…also carrick shud hav played instead of anderson from the beginning itself……that wud hav cut out the ball frm arsenal in the 1st half…and given da ball a bit more to the likes of ronaldo n tevez…but needless to say…..ronaldo i think over the years has come to a standstill that he plays only if he gets more of the ball….he has yet to produce that killer 1st distinctive touch..which cesc, messi r kaka easily does…
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blah. definately not an unfair result. if i had to pick the games of the season where only a single point would be acceptable, away to arsenal would be one of them. still i can’t escape the feeling that we should have had this one.
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Again against a very good team, we failed to show our class .. Many guys having been talking about tactical stuff and away game and all but even when we would at home against a good team , we never really show any signs of intent. For all this discussion, we all know honestly United NEVER looked like scoring. Simply speaking, the potency of our attack was simply not there, suppose we were 2-1 down, it wasnt looking as if we could get a goal at all. Where is teh attacking flair?? as for defence, two really poor goals were conceded but I say hell, it happens you score more than them. I think if we have to resort to ‘tactical’ methods to win against big teams, then seriously we should realise that we arent the grade yet.
Disappointed with many performances .. Our midfield was virtualy non-existant in second half, but still Hargo and Anderson need more games so I can be quiet. But why do we allow Arsenal have so much possesion and why we cant keep it ourselves.. simply because Arsenal players were hassling as much more then we were, plus their off the ball movement ws much better than ours.. I expected Hargo to do a bit more running than he did .. Ronaldo was completely nullified yesterday, why he is shunted out to the wing?? why dont we rotate playres like we do usually, if we have to punt long balls only then put Ronaldo afront and Tevez to the wing to fight it out for some possession .. All the rebound headers from defenders were simply going to Arsenal cheaply .. Hopefully we will learn from our mistakes..
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mmm…I on the other hnd thought Anderson was one of our better players, he worked hard defensively and looked good going forward, Im a real big fan, not on his play acting though, I can see another Keane/Veria battle deveoping between andeson and cesc. For me Brown was responsible for the first goal, completely ball watching. Rio did what he should have, by attempting to aurd the line. Saha was fantastic when he came on, a player who is so vital to United as he gives something different. Maybe should have been introduced earlier, but Nanis lack of invovement was a bit rough for me. After the introduction of Carrick, I think Giggs should have been subed, seeing as Carrick would shield our defense allowing Nani to gallop the wings. Oshea and Brown sub was a bit of a shock to be honest, maybe SAF was hoping Oshea would be a bit tighter, seeing as Brown was having a bit off an off day (loved his tackle on Clichy, hard and fair). Vidic was shown out for pace a few times, but was till an admirable contributer. Agree with JB, their second goal was one of those cases where luck was against us and it could have just as easily gone out as in the goal. There will always be times when this sort of stuff ocurs. But the ref was a joke. For me lost control of the game and slowed down the game with alot of needless free kicks, didnt realise that this was netball.
I think there is alot of undue critisism leveled at our players from some of their performances. EDVs was solid for me, as was the CBs the wings were where we looked most vulberable thorugh Evra and Giggs(who did play quite well, and his delicious chip to Rooney should just about have been Rooneys second, and through Christiano who and Brown. Dont get me wrong I love CR7 but again missing in the big game and put Brown under imense pressure by losing easy balls and not tracking back. Tevez tried hard, but just didnt look on song, Rooney was great, and so was Saha after his intorduction. Our CMs worked sufficently, and i dont think Arsenal dominated us in the midddle(especially when probably the best player in Europe atm was looking in some fine form).
A draw was a solid result for both temas, I thought that neither team outshone the other, with Arsenal playing probgably the more fluid football but Man Utd looking more dangerous on the counter an in their final third.
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SAMG; Bless your heart for seeing through the reality of Ferdinand’s two major errors. I have watched it over and over and I still can’t figure his way of thinking regarding the first goal. He even had plenty of time to go out and tie up Fabregas. Also the ball wasn’t hit so hard that Rio couldn’t have taken a whack at it on the goal line. If he missed, so be it, but at least give it a shot. The second goal would not have happened had the ref not called a stupid invisible foul on Saha. It should have been our ball and the dynamics of the final moments would have been different. That looked so bad you would think the Referee was wearing Arsenal red. Then Ronaldo never gave an effort against Clichy’s cross and Ferdinand refused to get grass stains on his ass or the second goal never would have happened either.
Bestie; Strong points as well. I would be easy on Anderson and Hargo though. Anderson will learn from his fair play mistakes. Trust me Fergie will teach him. It takes time to soak in though because these guys have it built into them from their cultural background.
South Americans are great at cheating and winning Academy Awards. As for Hargo, he looked a little slow out there. That could be because his knee is still a little tender and because he hasn’t quite reached match fitness yet. Other than that he played well.
You are so dead on about the club not showing it’s intent. We constantly show good opponents far too much respect when they should be respecting us. JB claims that if we attack we won’t have as much possession, but as I saw it today, Arsenal had most of the possession and was never pressed in their own half. How on Earth can you expect to create a reasonable amount of chances with that mentality? Also, we really need the pace and overlapping skill of Neville as well as his calming influence and leadership. Whenever we are severely pressured in our own box we seem to panic and we need a loud voice and leadership back their. Our organization in our back four seems to have been flushed down the toilet in the last three games. Five goals conceded (including the Kiev game). And every one of them a cheap goal created by poor fullback support and CB’s not concentrating and moving in the right place to defend. Fergie really needs to work on this for the future.
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For one, let’s agree that they are a good team and since they were playing at home, there is a chance that they will dominate possession. You see, United are not historically the team who boss possession knocking the ball around. It’s the quality of possession that we are known for, attacking at speed and killing teams off with the slightest mistake. Arsenal made two or maybe three errors, and we did pounce on them didn’t we?
And it wasn’t as if their possession was 60% and ours was 40. Check out the stats, Here. They were 51 and we were 49. Just a shade more. Not too bad I should think.
Agree with you that our defending was sloppy, to say the least.
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The ‘preoblem’ with Ronaldo in big games isn’t really that he doesn’t play well, it’s because he plays as a traditional right-winger as opposed to his all over the pitch ‘free role’. He tracked back yesterday more than I’ve seen him do in any match, he set up the first, scored the second and would’ve set up another id Giggs didn’t mis hit it. Don’t see the problem really…
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Look I don’t regard this as a matter of opinion I regard it as fact. The danger in the initial part of the first goal was from Adebayor. The major risk was he would nick the ball either over or under VDS and send it goal words. Rio reacted as he has been taught to and as he has done on countless occasions, get himself to the line to sweep up and scraps. Fabregas was NOT an option for Adebayor in that phase, there was no way to get the ball to him. Standard defences drill at that point would be to hold on the goal line until the situation stabilised and the goalkeeper had recovered particularly when defenders are available to pick people up. Sagna played the ball back before this. The man to blame was Brown; he had ample time to pick Fabregas up and he failed.
That bit of defensive procedure has saved our hides on numerous occasions before and is exactly how a defender should conduct himself in that situation. To think that a defender only ends up in the line during a free kick or corner is incorrect, put simply.
As for the second goal, Rio plays with his head not his heart. He was never reaching the ball so a lunge was a waste of time and would serve only to leave him with ‘grass on his shorts’ and out of position for the rest of that attack. By staying on his feet and getting into the area he retains a chance, albeit a small one, of making a block or a clearance which would save the game. As it was if the ball hadn’t crossed the line Ferdinand would have been up the other end of the box blocking Walcott’s follow up. Frankly I would rather my defenders played with some degree of intelligence rather than flying about like demented lunatics to fulfil the fans requirements.
It is funny that not one commentator, pundit (not Kamara, Gray, Hansen, hell not even RTE), newspaper, website or message board that I’ve seen (and I’ve seen a lot of them this morning and last night) have even hinted or suggested that Rio was at fault for either goal; that is other than you and Samg.
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JB; I’m sorry mate but your defense of the situation is not holding water. Just because you say it’s so, doesn’t make it canon. In my humble (and I am humble despite what you may think) I cannot agree with you on any of your statements. Simply put, you have an alternate theory on the events than myself or Samg. Thats OK and I respect it although I respectfully disagree on the grounds that I am also schooled in the tactics of football as well, I am not blind and I have my own view on the events.
You are adament that Rio could not get to the second ball. I have watched the video over and over from different angles and I am of the belief that he had a 75% chance of clearing that ball successfully. Especially with his height and long legs. Where I am really in disagreement with you is the first goal. I’m sorry mate but I really don’t know what the Hell you are talking about? I have spoken to two coaches since and one of them happens to be Bob Lenarduzzi who used to be the manager of the Canadian National Team here in Vancouver. Now Canada may not be a football power but this man has years of experience playing the best teams in the world as a player and coach. He agreed with me fully. In Fact he was the one that brought up the Rio controversy on the second goal to me. He referred to Rio as a “Lazy asshole”. on that play. He did agree with you that corner kicks are not the only time a defender should plant himself on the goal line but he thought that the danger on the first goal was Fabregas unmarked right in front. He like myself claims that the responsibility for Adebayor lays with EVDS. Ferdinand had to take Fabregas because Vidic was out of position due to the big mistake made by Evra in not covering Sagna on the overlap.
Now the only reason I used this childish ammunition is to point out that there are people out there who know a lot about the game that are not in agreement with your THIS IS THE LAW ACCORDING TO JB doctrine.
As you know from past posts, I have the utmost respect for your views and I have never challenged you on them like this before. But like myself, you are a fan and we have the right to have different viewpoints and opinions. That doesn’t make you wrong JB, it just doesn’t make me wrong either. I do know this however, that Fergie was fuming over the defensive lapses. Somebody made mistakes. I’m not saying it was just Rio but his lack of focus and concentration has been an issue ever since the Kiev match. He’s not all there. He’s either fighting an injury or he’s tired and needs a break. Mentally he is not always in the game.
Unfortunately I am often attacked by fans for being negative and hard on the the team. This is true only at times when I feel that criticism is deserved. Trust me my frustration over yesterdays game is probably mild to the dryer using shoe throwing rant that Fergie probably leveled on them in the dressing room. Although I am only a fan I watch the game from a coaches point of view. For me every mistake is magnified. I will also level praise in waves when it is warranted. But only my negative comments seem to get any response. I find this frustrating yet humorous. People are fickle. What I am not is blindly faithful. I’ll call it as I see it. This team is too good and Rio is too good to give games away like that. I would have preferred we received a good thrashing of 4-0 than take this disappointment. A 4-0 loss you can just accept as not being our day.
And finally (sorry for the long post) I also make the argument that you watched the game from either one of three different Setanta feeds. The one I received had the commentators very critical of Rio on the first goal. And I noticed other bloggers on other sites mentioning his name in disgust as well. Sorry but Samg and I are not alone in the wilderness. And sorry that I cannot see the game from your perspective either. I’ll say this much. You are not wrong, but I am not either. It’s just two different footballing philosophies colliding. I hope you can consider that comment as a fair end to this battle of the minds. Now on to the next game.
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Look grognard if you really need proof that Jb is right in saying that its standard procedure to guard the line if VDS is making sure Adebayor can’t pass to Fabregas and theres no keeper on the line then someone would need to be there if Adebayor tries to chip it which seemed to be his only option, unfortunately VDS tackles him and it luckily ends up with Fabregas, in the end he’s still in a fairly good position if Fabregas happens to panic and just hit it anywhere, with no accuracy or composure, as it may end up hitting rio I can remember more than a few times that the balls been cleared off the line by rio. And for video evidence:
http://www.d1g.com/video/show/1288279
As you can see on the second incident instead of marking the free man(bale) wes brown goes towards the line in case berbatov tries to chip him, as VDS has blocked any pass which could be made towards bale….
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Thanks Connor, its good to see I’m not the only one who has seen us do it before.
There are 2 distinct phases to the first goal, the Adebayor chance and then the Sagna cutback to Fabregas. Fabregas in not a threat in the first section because there is no realistic way for Adebayor to get the ball to him directly. The only option is for Adebayor is to go for goal directly and with VDS having to come out to block means the goal is vacant. The priority danger there and then was either Adebayor chipping the keeper or a ricochet off VDS heading goal wards. The only way Rio can influence the game is to get on the line to clear anything that gets through and trust the rest of the players to do their jobs. He has to deal with the danger that was presented to him there and then, in the first phase of the attack and he did. Now if he could see into the future and knew noting would come through in the first phase then he should have went directly to Fabregas, unfortunately he is not. It may not have been the standard defensive drill in the Canadian national team in the 90’s but it is ours now.
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I guess we all agree that no one is going to budge from their point of view here. So let’s call it a truce, shall we?
I still think Rio was right to be on the line, it was Brown who went ball watching. His fault entirely. But what has been worrying me more in general about the team is the way we concede possession so cheaply. We’ve been doing that plenty of times in the past, and this time it came to haunt us.
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Fair enough chief, that is the last I will say on the subject. One thing I will say though, you can probably trace most goals conceded to possession been cheaply lost somewhere on the pitch.
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I also think that Rio was right to be on the line. As JB said, he wasn’t to know that the ball would fall to Sagna, who would then play it into Fabregas. But as Grognard said, everyone is going to have different opinions on whose ‘fault’ it was – maybe due to the commentaries on TV – but it’s over and done with now and onto the next game.
I know what you mean about giving the ball away. The only team I’ve seen who never did it however were Chelsea under Mourinho, and now look how they are playing with less restrictions.
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God preserve us all when somebody treads on sacred cows. I want to call a truce because on this blog and only on this blog to I find myself bashing my head against a wall. I actually find it sort of humorous. Regardless of who is rightor wrong, this blog’s majority participants have an unbelievable take on things to do with United. Perhaps it’s because I have participated in more generic football blogs that didn’t show so much blind frakken loyalty. It’s bloody exasperating as I’m sure most of you find my semi-neutral views bi-partisan. I’m United through and through but I am not from the region and so my loyalty is often controlled by simple logic and objective criticism.
Right or wrong, I feel like I’m being overwhelmed by skewed logic that resembles Christians trying to convert Atheists. Or is it Christians being thrown to the lions and I’m playing the role of the Christian. And before you attack me further, know this. I’m saying this with a smile on my face. It’s fun to politely argue viewpoints. It’s what articulate ranting is all about. Exchanging differing views can often be educational if one allows himself to be respectful of alternate thinking. Lets call this round a 1-1 draw.
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Grognard: I fully intended not continue the debate but I feel that you deserve some response after calling into question the objectivity and logic or myself and others.
My allocation of blame on the first goal:
Giggs – loose touch on the throw in, gives the ball to Hleb.
Anderson/Hargreaves – tactical indiscipline caused them to be drawn to far up field, giving Fabregas and acre of space to work in.
Hargreaves – has a yard head start on Adebyor and looses him.
Vidic – get caught in no mans land.
Evra – a minor point, but is slightly slow to react to VDS save (but not out of position)
Brown – too lazy to mark Fabregas.
VDS/Rio – did what they should to the best of their abilities
Does that look like the assessment of someone with Red glasses on?
I have also provided a detailed analysis of why exactly Ferdinand should NOT pick up Fabregas (82) and should instead station himself on the goal line. Others have seemingly agreed with that take on the situation yet the suggestion is that it is we who have blinkers on. If you want an example of skewed logic just take a look at your own criticism of VDS. You criticised him for his performance IN the match because you think he is no longer the right man for the job and that when a big save is needed he doesn’t deliver. Where exactly is the objectivity and logic in that? It is like criticising a Formula 1 driver for finishing second in a race because he crashed in a race a month before.
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JB; I give up. You win. Shoot me now!!!! You clearly are set on your analysis and somebody deemed it correct and there is no debating it. Therefore we will consider it law. Sorry mate but that’s really arrogant. And I’m sure you think I’m arrogant. So lets just let it rest. We both think each other is full of crap on this one. In the past I have always respected your opinion because I COULD see the logic in it. Yet everything I have brought forward has been deemed wrong just because you say so. Please don’t take this badly as it may sound rude but I am very serious about it. Who made you supreme overlord? Have you even considered that you and the others you claim to be your allies could possibly be wrong?
Although I don’t believe I am wrong and people I have talked to who are solid well respected football minds here in Canada don’t think I’m wrong, then I don’t see a way to settle this.
It’s fair to say that on many things we definitely see the game and the way it is played differently. Fair enough. I still respect your opinion greatly even if I disagree with it at times. Hopefully you don’t let my stubborn streak piss you off too much as my intention is to just make my points strong enough that you can see from where I am coming from.
I honestly believe my cultural upbringing here in Canada and the fact that I have been greatly influenced by nasty American values and ways of thinking, makes me see things and sports from a different perspective. Unfortunately my American football mind set takes over some times. So hopefully you don’t take too much offense from our intellectual battles.
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No you can have your own analysis of the goal, you are perfectly free to. What I object to is the suggestion that everybody elses analysis lacked objectivity or was not based in logic. What I say is not law, I am not supreme overlord, lose the presecution complex it doesn’t suit you.
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Grognard enough with all this ‘God preserve us all when somebody treads on sacred cows’ ‘Therefore we will consider it law’, its unnecessary and its wrong to call illogical because they disagree with some of your points. Don’t get me wrong I think about 80% of the time i agree with you, but even then its just the way you get your point across often annoys me, the whole ‘everyone’s against me and I’m the only one who has an unbiased opinion’ crap is just stupid. AND you use the word ‘rant’ FAR too much. But still, I think you should apologize to whom you called illogical.;)
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*Wrong to call people illogical
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Sorry for the illogical jab. It never occurred to me that it was so offensive. I just couldn’t see the logic in Rio’s decision and so I made the comment. So again I do apologize.
And JB, it’s not a persecution complex, it’s just a stubborn streak that comes out when I believe in my soul that I am right. You of all people should understand that. RIGHT?
Sorry to all who were offended. It was never my intent.
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Alright fair enough, we’ll know that for the future. Apology accepted.
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