Feb 15
Derby Man Utd: Live!
Welcome! Follow us live, as we live blog today’s FA Cup.
Update: Leave your comments in the comments thread now that the game’s over.
Related items from Red Rants:
- Rooney Out For A Month
- Man Utd Blog 2007/2008 Home Kit
- Derby County v Man Utd: Preview
- West Ham v Man Utd: Live
- The need for a right-back and a forward | Title race blown open
Tags: Live Blog
February 15th, 2009 at 17:38
the line up quite frankly sucks, but ah wells not much i can do
February 15th, 2009 at 18:00
NANNNIIII, why can’t the kid do this more often
February 15th, 2009 at 18:38
coz he doesnt fuckin play, thats why
February 15th, 2009 at 20:17
To be honest Nani was good for around 20 minutes. The rest of the seventy minutes he did nothing.
For me the moment of the match was Giggs weaving past defenders in a mazy run that Messi would have been proud of.
Ronaldo does seem to be out of sorts. Still a very dangerous player, but something seems to be wrong. I don’t know whether he is still carrying an injury or is sore about the Real deal falling through. But I loved his reaction to scoring the goal!
Gibson finally showed me what he is capable of. The other games Ive seen him play he’s been very disappointing. OK we are playing lower league opposition but he looked very composed and it was a sweet goal.
Strange how people were screaming for Tevez and Berbatov when we managed to score four without them. It was nice to see some goals after enduring all those boring 1-0 wins.
February 15th, 2009 at 20:18
wow… talk about eating humble pie…. i thought the line up sucked too, and i was predicting a good ole boring 1-nil win. but i am glad i was wrong. Wanna share some thoughts
How about that flying kick from Park? Cantona woulda been proud of that kick, on target, speedy, and good air time. move aside Bruce Lee, here come Bruce Ji.
Nani was good only during the goal, so was Gibson, but i guess goals are better than incisive passing without end product. Nani should get more playing time too i reckon, his goals, and pace, and crossing are something that the team can use more often. Park cannot cross for nuts…
Welbeck was very cool; this would not be the first time u heard it, nor will it be the last, but this boy has class. Join me and a thousand others in thinking that this fella might be the next big thing in our team.
Possebon hasnt shown me why people keep likening him to Scholes, chalk it up to the fact i havent seen him play enough, but i just dont see it. Not like how i can see plainly that Welbeck has talent.
Foster kept up his leaky record.
Giggs was superb. He was the main puppeteer in todays game. Totally at the centre of all our attacks. Methinks he should be the central attacking midfielder in all our ‘Must win’ or ‘big’ games.
How can you show respect to a bunch of people who are Blind, Stupid, Inconsistant, or ridiculous at any one time, but usually all together at once. Poor decisions on the Ronaldo goal. Not only that, but the FA would likely back their stupid refs and say something or other that makes no sense to people who have an IQ higher than 30
Anyway, good night for us tonight eh? Hoepfully we get to play Swansea, that would be more interesting i reckon. A PL side in the next round would probably be a boring affair.
February 15th, 2009 at 20:20
@colver: Yeah, The celebration was classic…. haha
February 15th, 2009 at 22:16
Match ratings , anyone? Broadcasting problems here in Mauritius.
And JB (since among the regulars, I agree with your views the most), what did you make of Gibson, Possebon and Welbeck. Gibson, correct me if I’m wrong, does nothing useful but scoring goals (though, that’s not really bad in itself
)
Possebon looks to have got brains and skills but lacks drive, whereas Welbeck looks good when he makes himself involved – basically I think he tends to drift in and out of games…
Well, that’s just from previous assessment, as I said I couldn’t watch tonight’s match…
Apparently Gibson produced a fine performance today? I remember last time he scored for us but he was truy terrible in all other aspects of the game…
February 15th, 2009 at 23:39
I think that Ronaldo is a shadow of the player he was last year. He continuously looses possession and seems to lack the zest he had last year.
I think that Gibson had a good game, particularly in the first half and so had Fletch by the way. Rafael still has to learn how to mark. He was left stranded quite a few times. Giggs was sublime. Nobody can blame Foster for the goal and he made a very good save.
February 16th, 2009 at 0:09
The thing that really annoys me about ronaldo is his free kick shooting at every bloody oppurtunity. Seriously, anywhere from 40 yards in and he bloody shoots, always usually into the wall, i mean yes he scored some good free kicks last year but come on, shooting from 40 yards every time, some one needs to have a word with him, or 1 of the players just take it off him. You should not be shooting from that far out, get giggs to cross it in and lets see if some1 can get their head on it, yes it looks amazing when ronaldo gets them in 40 yards out, but they are so rare, he only got 2 to my knowledge against bolton and pompey last year, and just stoke this time, he really needs to get a ticking off and told to stop being so bloody stupid and not shoot from unrealistic positions.
As for some of the youngsters, gibson did ok today but for me he will never be a united player. He has a good shot on him to his credit, but apart from that i think hes pretty useless and shouldnt be around for long. To wink asking about possebon, yes he has gone back a bit of late since getting injured but he has a real football brain and i think he needs time, but i think he is absolute quality personally. Wellbeck i have been raving about for a year, this kid has so much talent, but will he ever really get much a chance or will he only ever be 4th choice. Time will tell. Foster i think needs more games too, i think hes a good prospect though, and rafael looked comfortable as well. The result was pleasing and i just hope we continue this goal scoring form against fulham and go 5 points clear at the top.
February 16th, 2009 at 0:43
Player ratings:
Foster – good solid performance bar one or two shoddy bits of kicking early on. One excellent save and good distribution, particularly for the offside goal. Commanded his area well and there was nothing he could do on the goal. 7
Da Silva – not too much to write home about. Got skinned a couple of times by Teale in the second half and was caught out of position on a couple of other occasions. Not the same attacking force as he usually is. Needs someone to sit down with him and teach him not to commit himself so much when facing down a winger. 5.5
Ferdinand – defended well and in command of the whole situation. The Derby front line was never going to test him unduly. 7.5
Evans – competent enough display but he did look a bit clumsy when under pressure in deep positions with the ball. Gave away a couple of unnecessary free kicks. 6
Evra – wasn’t a 100% but kept his flank secure and offered good impetus and penetration from deep positions when attacking. Good to have him back. 7
Park – other than his goal scoring chance I didn’t really notice him that much. Didn’t do much wrong but didn’t set the world alight either. But given he probably had the longest trip of our international contingent that’s understandable. 6
Fletcher – lacking the spark of the first couple of the months of the season but he still give a good performance. Linked up with Giggs well at times but should have done better with his early effort. 7
Gibson – real performance out of the blue for me. Movement and positioning were good and his passing was forward looking, accurate and fast (not dissimilar to Carrick in style). Goal was a good finish and he helped to control the midfield. I always had him filled down as a Chris Eagles, one or two quality moments but never really looked United quality. However if he can put in a few more performances like that he might well have a future in the squad. I would expect that much will depend on his CC final display. 7.5
Nani – played well in the first half, capped with an excellent goal. Faded a bit in the second and had one poor dive. Much less selfish today, had his passing head on.. 7
Giggs – class apart today. His passing, flicks and vision took Derby apart today. If his team mates had really been on sync with him today we could have run up a cricket score. 8 and MOM
Ronaldo – Had a couple of good efforts on goal, one goal ruled out (marginal offside) and one excellent header. His passing was often wayward, right idea normally but poor executing. Good work rate and tried hard. 7
Subs
O’Shea – first thing of note, fail to control a routine pass from Ronaldo and let it go into touch. Second thing of note, fail to close your man down who then hits the cross for the goal. Fine after that to be fair. Note to coaching staff, waken him up before sending him on as a sub next time. 6
Welbeck – absolute peach of a goal but I didn’t really know he was on the pitch before or after that. Still he is doing his case for being reserve striker over Campbell next year no harm at all. 7
Possebon – Not much time to judge him but on what I did see he looked sluggish and slow. Looks to have gone backwards since his injury against Boro. Doubtful that he will feature much for the rest of the season as he really doesn’t look anywhere near up to pace required for intense first team games. 6
February 16th, 2009 at 1:02
Just got home so I haven’t seen the game. Very happy to see the scoreline too. Look forward to seeing the game and getting a better feel for what happened. But before I even see the game I am pissed off with Foster for giving up a goal. Why? Because I wouldn’t be me if I never blasted Foster regardless of whether he did well or not. At least I’m a consistent SOB.
February 16th, 2009 at 1:08
Even though we won easliy I question the fact that Ronaldo is not being rested enough meanwhile Rooney, Berbatov, Tevez and Welbeck did not start. Ronaldo is our most valuable commodity and he is not having a great season. It seems that rest would be something that he could have used.
February 16th, 2009 at 1:19
Ronaldo seems a little off the pace, both psychically and mentally. Watching him today you could see that he lost quite a few foot races to the ball and his mental agility in tight situations was sluggish to say the least. The annoying taking of Free Kicks in very low percentile situations also speak to this problem.
This, worryingly, has been the pattern of his season so far and not an anomaly that occurs periodically. More worrying, is that it seems to be getting worse for him as time passes.
You would have to think that he has become tired or even approaching the exhaustion stage with all that has happened for him over the last 12-18 months (the amazing highs of last season, the Madrid affair, the injury, the Ballon D’or, the WPOTY). It all could be enough to put this young man off his stride!
With SAF’s insight into player development, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him sit for a couple of games, maybe come on in the 2nd half against Blackburn, and with the Inter matches firmly in our radar now, this guy needs to regain some strength, some desire and without a doubt, some poise.
With Ronaldo, at even a resemblance of his old self, we could seize the rest of this season and make it truly epic!!
February 16th, 2009 at 1:45
I was, again, immensely impressed with Rafael!! Hugely skillful on the ball and showing amazing instinct for one so young. Admittedly he does display some positional immaturity but with his exuberance and flair you tend to forgive this shortcoming.
He does what I’d wish Anderson would – take the game by the scruff of its neck and shake it until something happens!! Am I dreaming, or could this boy be our next Scholes??
February 16th, 2009 at 2:11
@Grognard: Foster was shaky again for me, but the goal was not his fault!! If blame is to be laid then Welbeck was the culprit!!
February 16th, 2009 at 2:56
@Grognard: Ronaldo talks himself into games. I don’t think dropping him is much of an option with Fergie. Guess he sulks if he is kept on the bench. I couldn’t watch the match my examinations coming up, but what was his reaction like when he was subbed? I am quite confident that he wouldn’t have liked it.
February 16th, 2009 at 2:58
@Redrich: Funny isn’t it, that each time Foster concedes a goal it isn’t his fault?
February 16th, 2009 at 3:03
@Redrich: SAF’s insight into player development? The guy has not been upto his usual standards from the time he came back from injury. In the last infinite times that he has taken a free kick, he has managed to clear the wall only thrice? or four times? He is clearly out of sorts, it is only his greatness that even though he is performing distinctly average he is still a threat.
I personally feel that he doesn’t want to sit out of games and SAF doesn’t want to offend him. because otherwise, any other player in the world would have got some forced rest by now. Leave alone the fact that he was the best player of the world last season and not even close to his best form this season after a good six months into his season.
February 16th, 2009 at 3:04
@UnitedUnited: Well that’s a cynical point of view. You obviously don’t like him as a player but you can’t argue with the fact that he makes us a better team when he plays anywhere close to his best!!
February 16th, 2009 at 3:06
@UnitedUnited: You, obviously don’t know SAF very well do you!
February 16th, 2009 at 3:14
@UnitedUnited: Foster has a long way to go if he is to be a strong PL goalie, but the goal was clearly not his fault!!
February 16th, 2009 at 3:15
Anybody out there??
February 16th, 2009 at 3:36
Just two things about the game:
1. Welbeck is Class! Hint of a Henry about him (dont know if he has Henry’s pace) I last saw Henry score this exact goal once (that was against us I think) Very very promising. SAF might be tempted to save his 30m (on Tevez) and promote Welbeck to 3rd striker role (and it wont be too unjustified as well) The guy simply comes up with a goal (and most of the times an outstanding one) whenever he is on the pitch! I am more excited about him than Campbell.
2. Ronaldo has to be the best header of the ball in the world AT THE MOMENT! I dont know of anybody else who scores with the head so often!
February 16th, 2009 at 4:13
@jos: I do think SAF is pondering the 30mil on the Caveman but Welbeck is not the answer. Just not a proven commodity for him to take him to the bank. Lyons striker, Benzamar,(sorry about the spelling) is his striker of choice, and if he can land him for anywhere close to that 30mil then Carlito will be on his way!!
February 16th, 2009 at 5:21
Well I finally got to watch the whole match on delay and I have to say that it was a solid win but that we looked a little shaky on defense. So I’ll blame Ben Foster for that. No, seriously, I do blame Foster for that. I think the problem with Foster other than his lack of assuredness back there is his lack of proper communication to his back four. Quite often Rio and Evans needed a little help from Evans on high balls and Foster was indecisive and frankly, he just needs to bark out orders more often. Ans I do not blame him for the goal as it was a well placed header. But once again, when a great save was required, Ben was nowhere to be found. Perhaps that’s unfair but the truth is I rarely see this boy make a save of any consequence. I’m sorry but I just don’t see him being EVDS’s heir. NO FUCKING WAY!
As for the team performance, not bad but not great either. Lets not forget that we were playing Derby Fucking County. A bunch of tossers who as far as I am concerned we should be beating 7-0 or 8-0. Unreasonable and unrealistic? I don’t think so.
My biggest complaint for this game is a plea and a shout of frustration about the state of refereeing in the game and the absolute blindness of the game’s linesmen week after week when it comes to off side calls. MY GOD! What the frak is wrong with these people when they can’t get an off side call right more often than not?I have now counted 6 goals by Cristiano Ronaldo called back because of crappy an unjust offside calls.
Is this some kind of conspiracy? Today’s call was just ludicrous and ridiculous in it’s delay. Then they go an award the goal to Gibson when Park was clearly in an offside position and in a area that could cause problems on the play for the keeper. Honestly people, I have had enough. I find unacceptable that a League that rakes in millions every year from hard working supporters cannot figure out a better way to enforce correct calls in games. Use instant fucking replay for crying out loud. And make every 50/50 call an automatic “tie goes to the attacker” rule. The game needs goals, not misery. I don’t care if the game is stopped and they have to add 10 minutes of injury time, I want accuracy and fairness. Do you all realize that Ronaldo would be well over 20 goals this season had it not been for blind as a bat linesmen? I think we all might think he was having a much better season than we do had his six on side goals that were ruled off side, counted. It’s bogus and it’s criminal.
Now regarding other players in the game. Good performances by all but for me Ryan Giggs was a standout. He really has come a long way since that Chelsea game which seemed to wake him out of his slumber and remotivate him. Since then he has simply been brilliant and amongst the best players in world football. The back four had some shaky moments but were fine for the most part. Who is that young and short left back we got? I think his name is Evra? Seriously, it was nice to see Patrice back in the lineup. I almost forgot we had him. Evans and Rio were good and Rafael was once again impressive in spurts although his defense was a bit off in the game.
Gibson took his goal nicely even though it shouldn’t have counted. Park was alright but not as great as some think and Fletcher was steady if not spectacular. And how about Lil Man Nani? That was a great goal and a look at the Nani of last year. Craig must have loved that one. If Ronaldo would do more of that cutting in and driving a great shot, then we would be in Heaven.
Special praise has to go Danny Welbeck for a truly brilliant and highly clinical goal. That was a Thierry Henry special and I was very impressed with how much ease and comfort he took that shot. Very confident and stroked with world class panache. Reason number one why we should not sign another striker next season. Fergie do what you must do with Tevez but bring back Campbell and elevate Welbeck to our main squad. The boy is quality and he deserves to play. Fuck Benzema or any other pipe dream of a striker out there……..except Huntelaar of course. Sorry DAN, I couldn’t resist.
Finally a few words about Ronaldo. I love the lad even though his head is somewhere else and he has continually frustrated me with many aspects of his game this year. But then he also has moments like his off side goal and his brilliant header that make you marvel at how diverse and truly skilled he is. But I have to say that he is still far from being himself and I’m not sure why? No more excuse about injuries and a slow start due to fitness. His problem is 100% lack of focus and concentration related. In other words his mind is elsewhere. Where he has really fallen off this year is in his one on one confrontations and of course his free kicks. Elevate that ball Cristiano. I don’t care if it goes high. I just can’t stand seeing it hit the wall anymore. I pray and sincerely hope he isn’t planning another piss off display and demands to go to Madrid this off season. If he’s happy and it’s just a genuine slump in form, fine, but I have a sneaky suspicion there is more to it than that. And Fergie, for crying out loud, Ronny does not run the show. I don’t care if he demands to play every game, there comes a time every 8 or 9 games when you need to rest him. He’s tired and it showed today.
Well that’s that. Now on to our next conquest. God I love this team.
February 16th, 2009 at 5:47
On Ronaldo, I think that while he clearly hasn’t been up to the same level as last season, that doesn’t mean his head is elsewhere or he’s gotten too cocky. He’s always been too cocky! Because we have the constant transfer saga we interpret his actions/failures in light of it, when we have no idea what is causing a loss of attacking form that is affecting the whole team. SAF is one of the greatest man-managers ever; if he thought Ronaldo’s head wasn’t in the game and it was a detriment to the team, he wouldn’t play him, simple as. My personal opinion is that it’s laziness brought on by the Double: we are only now remembering how much work went into two weeks of glory.
On a side note, I don’t know if any of you guys have noticed but there seems to be a buzz developing around Giggs for PFA/FWA Player of the Year, mostly because a bunch of journalists have realised that he’s never won it before and it’s their duty to correct this wrong (presumably in the process wronging someone who actually deserves to be called the best player in English football 08/09). I love Giggs but he’s hardly been an ever-present this season, and being as most of our success this season has come from Carrick and the defence this situation has reminded me again of the underappreciation of the defensive art. What do you guys reckon? Should Giggs get it just for lifetime achievement? Or who should win it? (my vote would go to Vidic, but what do I know?)
February 16th, 2009 at 6:24
@Grognard: Its time for you to admit Huntelaar isnt the real deal. I know it hurts, cause my man Quaresma is a flop as well. But you cant honestly be upset that we didnt get Klaas.
February 16th, 2009 at 6:35
If anyone had doubts about Wellbecks quality, I hope they are gone. After seeing his celebration or lack there-of, i knew the goal was sheer skill and not luck. He acted as like it was a routine play and that he expected to score form there. I cant wait to see what this kid has in store for us in the next decade. I am absolutely sure(barring injury) this kid is going to be a legend.
February 16th, 2009 at 6:46
@johnsom33: Maybe its a tad harsh, but what else did he do when he was on? I didn’t really notice him out there… I’m just saying, promoting him to Legend status at 18 might be stretching it…
February 16th, 2009 at 7:15
@Redrich: Well Benzema is as much unproven commodity as Welbeck (in PL/England context). I dont think Fergie takes that big gambles (30+ million on unproven players). Benzema is definitely not coming to OT (maybe it was just a ploy to lure Chelsits/city to lure them into buying him!) I can bet no way is fergie let gonna go of a world class player like tevez and replace him with a PL unproven “shitbag” benzema for 30+m. After burning his hands with Veron Fergie has become too cautious. All his big buys have been PL proven and he is not afraid to pay big late (e.g. Berba, Carrick etc)
Of course you can point out Hargo but he was chased for ages and we got sucked for big bucks by those munich based cunts (not their fault though, as it was us who desperately wanted the player). But Benzema is not the same (he is not english, and is yet to light a big tournie). Also Nani/Ando came with big price tags (but actually little payments upfront and big performance based payouts something I hardly think that wily fox Aulas would allow!)
February 16th, 2009 at 7:30
@johnsom33: Sorry mate but I do believe that Huntelaar is the real deal. Forget what is happening at Real. He was bought and given no chance to establish himself there because of the political situation and because Raul insists on Higauin playing up front with him. He is not the first great player to go to the wrong team. So no, I’m not admitting anything and I still feel he would have been great for us. Real are a bunch of asses who have mismanaged players for years.
February 16th, 2009 at 7:32
@johnsom33: You picked the wrong day to say it mate. Yesterday Huntelaar started and he scored a goal. Can’t be too quick to judge until he’s had a good run in the side. Which he hasn’t so far.
February 16th, 2009 at 7:33
@johnsom33: You noticed that too. I like players who don’t celebrate every goal like they just won the World Cup. It’s like the way old school coaches in the NFL used to instruct their players to not celebrate after touchdowns. The message was clear. Show the opponent that you’ve been there before. Nothing is more intimidating to an opponent than when a team acts like a scoring is a hum drum second nature event. It’s cold and very Terminator-like. Just score turn around, look at them and say “I’ll be back”.
February 16th, 2009 at 7:37
@Drew Vader: Nobody is promoting him to legend status but you are forgetting that he is a striker and the way you define and judge a striker is how he takes his chances. Some of the greatest strikers can be invisible for 89 minutes and it doesn’;t mean they are playing poorly. It just means that the ball is not making it’s way to them. But when they get that one chance, they pounce on it and make it count. Welbeck has shown that this season in his few auditions. His goal today was clinical, opportunistic and extremely well taken from a sharp angle. Cool as a cucumber and that’s the sign of a natural goal scorer. Don’t dismiss him because he didn’t play like a midfielder with the ball at his feet every ten seconds. He showed his class when it counted.
February 16th, 2009 at 7:38
@Red Ranter: Thank you RR, I knew I could count on you. I need all the Huntelaar support I can get.
February 16th, 2009 at 7:47
@Drew Vader: And to add to what Grognard said, I made an observation during the live blog and it was that Welbeck was shunted out wide. I’m not sure if that’s his natural position. It perhaps also explained why he wasn’t noticed much till his chance. But the finish was exquisite. All that said, I still think he has a long way to go. He doesn’t look very pretty with the ball at his feet. He looks a little clumsy at times.
February 16th, 2009 at 7:49
@Grognard: Actually johnsom33 was promoting him to legend status. (here)
February 16th, 2009 at 9:08
@jos: While Benzema is unproven in the PL he is a first rate striker, strong, big and mean. His track record at Lyon is impressive and his star shines brighter when up against CL opposition. For me this is an odds on gamble and certainly one that SAF would lay big money on!
While Danny Welbeck certainly has shown some promise for the future, he still is very unproven in a regular first team role and to even talk about a comparison between him and the likes of Benzema seems inappropriate!
February 16th, 2009 at 9:37
Foster is shaky. Give me Adler, with a few endorsements from Grog and a few vid clips, i think the guy has a future. I even heard he is a United fan. fuure 1st choice: Adler Second Choice: Frosty. Sell Pig for a couple of quid.
February 16th, 2009 at 9:41
i remember the totenham game FA cup, Frosty has poor fuck all positioning and we conceded a goal. Frosty cant be the heir to VDS, he just would not make the cut. A one season wonder at Watford is not enough for a guy to be touted as the next United number 1.
February 16th, 2009 at 9:46
@jos: “munich based cunts” you are going to get stickd for this by grog!
February 16th, 2009 at 10:23
I thought it was a great performance from the lads, and aside from one slack piece of marking by an 18 year old striker, we’d of walked it. Several patterns:
1. I apologise for my earlier season disparaging remarks towards a certain legend named Giggs. I have no idea how he’s doing it, but he’s getting better. His run in the second half was one of the most beautiful things I’ve seen on a pitch this year. Some of his link up play with Ronaldo was sublime, if only Ronaldo had his speed of thought. Come to think of it, if Ronaldo had Giggsy’s temperament and professionalism, he would become the best player the world has ever seen. Pity.
2. Ronaldo is having second season syndrome, in his fifth season. If he does one more stupid blind backheel to the defense I swear I’m going to get on a bus, drive up to Manchester and punch him in the face. Yes, you’re quite good, you don’t need to show it with pathetic little tricks that fail. I’m not even getting into freekicks.
3. Gibson was actually quite good, he and Fletcher dominated midfield and were quite progressive. Encouraging, could Gibson be the next Fletcher? (underapprecaited and midly talented at a very young age, matures well and slowly gets into the team?)
4. We are a different team with Evra playing. O’Shea might be dependable and vanilla as you like, but Evra is simply superb, and brings a new dimension to our whole performance.
5. I’ve been a big fan of Foster since watching him at Watford, but even I am starting to worry. To be fair to him, almost every goal scored on him has been perfectly placed, and I do wonder about his luck (off the back of a CB’s head looking the other way, perfectly into the corner? Really?!) but at some point it comes down to him to keep clean sheets. I’m encouraged by how massively pissed off he was at conceeding, he knows what it means. He’s young, inexperienced but has the right tools. His stop from Teale in the second half was fantastic. His distribution is also a new weapon to add to our arsenal. I don’t think we can judge him til he’s played behind our best team.
6. We won comfortably while resting Tevez, Berbatov, Carrick, Vidic and VDS (and Rooney). As we should, but good to see.
7. Welbeck’s finish screamed Henry, his celebration affirmed it. Fine with me, there are worse people to idiolise in his position. I’m beginning to wonder if the kid’s actually quite good…
8. Official’s can’t have it both ways. If a linseman can’t see the flick on from Giggs in real time, there is no way he can therefore judge Ronaldo as offside when the flick was made. It was clearly ‘told’ to him by someone else, which goes against the rules. I’m fine with them doing whatever they want to get to the right decision, and I thoguht he was just offisde, but you can’t claim that no fourth officials help with calls, and then have that happen. It can’t work that way. Of course nothing will be done, because officials are like the damn Pope in the Vatican, to criticise woudl be sancrosanct. And we wonder why they’re crap.
9. Rafael excites me, but he also scares me. Gary Teale is alright, but shouldn’t be skinning you many times if you’re a first choice RB at the world’s best club. I know he’ll learn, I just wonder how many important goals we’ll conceed in that process.
10. Nani’s goal per start ratio must be awesome.
February 16th, 2009 at 10:56
im sorry define shaky? foster did nothing wrong! you cant have a go at the guy for not making a save, when you have a Man utd defence thats good enough for the first team in front of you! foster had a great game and did what he could. He wasnt shaky in the slightest.
February 16th, 2009 at 11:23
@Redrich: What you say about Benzema was true about a certain Kuyt in dutch league several seasons ago
would you like him in ur team now?
Point is french league’s exploits notwithstanding, benzema is still PL unproven (and was a big failure at euro’08). he isint worth 30+m (the price Aulas will fleece out of us). I will go mental if Fergie ships out Tevez and brings Benzema! At least Tevez loves utd. To me it’ll be akin to murdering the finest traditions of our wonderful club.
I’d rather give proper chance (and it is not undeserved at all!) to Welbeck rather than spend 30m on a frog.
February 16th, 2009 at 11:29
@john freakin’ o’shea: Hehe its sometimes okay to antagonise our grogster. Nice exercise to improve one’s vocabulary of fashionable swear words
But seriously I once lived in Munich for like 6 months (in 2004) and made great friends with several absolute Bayern Munchen haters! We’d watch Bundesliga games in my room and whenever Bayern played we’d boo like anything (got my education of nice german swear words there
Anyway Bayern are not my team so it doesnt matter to me at all! I just madly follow utd.
February 16th, 2009 at 11:40
@Grognard: I don’t know if you were aware of what happened with the linesman on that goal. He wasn’t sure if Giggs had touched the ball on the way through and requested confirmation from the fourth official, ergo the delay in the offside call being made. Looking at the replays on the highlights programme later on the call looked to just about be correct.
@Beachryan: To be fair to the linesman he knew where Ronaldo was when the ball got to Giggs, he just wasn’t sure if he touched it. Personally I don’t have a problem with it, ultimately they made the right call despite the confusion.
February 16th, 2009 at 11:57
@jos: Comparing Benzema to Kuyt? Here is one difference for you, one was linked with £10m moves to Liverpool and Newcastle, the other £30m moves to United, Barcelona and Real Madrid. Next difference, one has a good pedigree in the CL, the other barely featured prior to moving to England.
Yeah he is EPL unproven, but so what, do you want our shopping restricted to these shores in future? On that basis Michael Essien would have been a pretty shit buy, as well as that short arse left back that plays for us now. Every transfer is a gamble, but for me Benzema is worth the risk.
That said there wouldn’t be a question of a gamble if Tevez was performing better. But the way he has played this season he just isn’t worth the fees that are being knocked around for him.
February 16th, 2009 at 12:19
@JB: Being linked with clubs has no meaning really. Agents do that for lot of players all the time! benzema is still playing for Lyon and I dont know if there are any vacancies for him at Real/Barca etc. Would you have Eto’o or Benzema? Its a no brainer really!
And all I am saying is its not in Fergie’s nature to gamble when it comes to big money moves (else Torres would have been a utd player!) After burning hands in the Veron affair, the gaffer has become very circumspect. Now we have big money moves only for PL proven players! Evra wasnt a big money signing at 5.5m (comparatively). SAF could have picked Berba for 1/3rd 2 seasons back but he hesitated. I havent seen the kind of one-minded pursuit/haste in many very obvious transfers (those who are not PL proven) as in case of Berba/Carrick. I mean once SAF make up his mind on a player he will inevitably end up at OT. But I havent seen SAF making up his mind for big players outside of UK. Just hargo comes to my mind as exception. Ando/Nani were probably our ex No.2’s buys.
And Tevez has had a decent season so far. Not good, but not bad either. I still feel he has got some say in the way this season will end for united! We are still fighting for 4 more trophies this season.
[ just proves, like Grog, I am no Benzema fan! ]
February 16th, 2009 at 12:43
O Neill For Fergie!!!
You heard it here first!
February 16th, 2009 at 12:46
For the first 25 mins, Nani looked every bit ‘the next ronaldo’ and very much like c.ron at that stage of his career. I hope we give him enough time/games to develop.
February 16th, 2009 at 13:10
@jos: The point in being linked with other clubs was that Benzema is viewed as a player for Europe’s elite clubs, while Kuyt was always going to be a second tier level player.
I disagree on the point that SAF has become more cautious since Veron. You seem to have discounted the fact that there were sustained pursuits of Ronaldinho, Torres and Robben, not to mention a strong interest in Essien since then. The Berbatov transfer did not materialise due to the fact that funds weren’t released from the RVN sale in time to get the job done before Spurs. And regardless of whether you think Nani and Anderson were CQ inspired signings, they were most likely authorised by SAF and they are ultimately his gamble.
Infact I would say the main issue with the Veron transfer was that he was never SAF’s primary target. After the collapse in the Vieira transfer, SAF had a massive pile of cash of burning a hole in his pocket and splashed it on a luxury player we never really needed. That is in stark contrast to his recent, almost myopic activities in the transfer market. As you said, these days he sees a player he likes and will pursue them to the ends of the earth. Even if the transfer looks unlikely you never get the impression he will go for an alternative just to plug a gap (i.e. Senna). So if Benzema is a player he really likes he will likely go for him, regardless of playing in the French league, price or anything else.
And as you said Tevez has a decent season. But has he had £22m (at least) good a season? I don’t think he has.
February 16th, 2009 at 13:15
For me Benzema has a lot of potential but is not the finished article because to develop he needs to move to a more competitive league. Therefore Id pay no more than 20 million for him. At that price he would be a good buy IF AND ONLY IF he wanted to join us. Frankly he has shown no desire to play for us. If he joined us it would be as a stepping stone to Real or Barcelona or Milan and I have no desire for such players at our club. One is enough.
Welbeck shows promise but he is only 18 and he is certainly not at the level Rooney was at that age. He has time on his side and as fourth striker he’ll get chances. For our third striker if Tevez leaves we need someone who is on a par with Rooney and Berbatov because Rooney always misses games each season and the amount of games we play it is useful to be able to rotate strikers.
If Tevez leaves Id want Rossi as a replacement. Assuming a buyback clause is in place we should get him for around 12-15 million and he comes with Champions League experience and a couple of years experience in La Liga.
I do not know what is wrong with Ronaldo.
My theory goes like this.
In the previous seasons he was showing improvement each and every season. He was on the way up and growing in confidence with every game. He believed he could become the best player in the world and he achieved this dream.
Then he suffers a massive setback with the injury and the failed move to Real Madrid. These are huge psychological blows to his fragile self-esteem.
He returns from injury too early and is out of shape, lacking in match practice and still hurting a bit from the injuries. Predictably he plays badly.
He is his own harshest critic and gets angry and frustrated with himself. He feels like an imposter receiving these individual trophies because he knows his performances do not justify his title as best player in the world. He begins to doubt himself-perhaps the last seasons were a fluke. This negative attitude brings his game down.
Gone are the cocky self-assurance and arrogance that gave him the audacity and confidence that made him such a great player. Instead he is a bit tentative, tries too hard to impress and opposition players sense his weakness and are encouraged to have a go at him.
More players are fouling him because of his high profile and as his body is a bit brittle he cannot ride the challenges as well as he could, especially as he is lacking in match fitness. I mean even Robbie Savage took him out on Sunday.
We can win the League without Ronaldo at his best. But we need him to be on top form for the Champions League games. I say we get the Inter game out of the way, then give him ten days off so he is fresh for the second leg.
February 16th, 2009 at 14:11
Benzema is a quality player, but his personality is terrible. That is why I dont want him in real life, only on FIFA video games. End of story!
I just wonder how the weather in Manchester is? Im going to the Fulham game and Ive just recovered from an illness.
Still, going to Old Trafford is swell, and I have waited for this trip a long time. Im gonna scream my head off! 
So I wont be on this site the next few days, but I will try to get to some internet before the game. Cheers, and may United win. 
February 16th, 2009 at 14:38
@Traverse: Eh when Ronaldo was 21/22 he was borderline the best player in the world, which Nani quite clearly is NOT
February 16th, 2009 at 14:40
@ RDE – Congrats mate, enjoy it! Cold and rainy
Anyone know if Anderson is fit? If so, when is he going to get another game? Midfield 3 against Fulham?
February 16th, 2009 at 14:42
@RedDevilEddy: That’s what everyone said when I said sign Eto’o when he was transfer listed during the Summer. Now look at him he is the best striker in the world and probably would,ve come a hell of a lot cheaper than Berbatov. Ronaldo and Rooney have what could be called shit personalities. Does that mean that we are going to just get rid of them? Football is a game of skill, anything else is just extra
February 16th, 2009 at 14:54
I don’t know why all this talk about Benzema keeps appearing anyway. We are struggling to fit Tevez, Rooney, Ronaldo and Berbatov as it is. When everybody is fit the obvious fall guy is Tevez, made easier by the fact he is here on a temporary basis at our discretion. You swap him for Benzema at the end of the season and the situation is made even more difficult. Who gets dropped? It won’t be the brand new £30m striker. I can’t see it being the favoured son or the current WPOTY. And I would be surprised if the guy who was bought for £32m just six months ago was relegated to the bench (much less have the right attitude for it). So bar a radical shift in the current situation I reckon the Benzema talk is very much a pipe dream for now.
@RedDevilEddy: I have heard this a couple of times from different people. I would love to know what the source for his personality issues are. I’ve never seen anything in the press to suggest he has an attitude problem etc. Is it because of the way he looks when he plays? Or is it because he said he would like to play for Madrid/Barca?
@colver: I don’t know, if he helped bring the success of Ronaldo I could happily overlook the desire to play for Madrid/Barca one day.
@jos: Despite his excellent form the rumours in Spain that Eto’o may leave the Nou Camp at the end of the season just won’t go away. That provides a bit of credence to the links with Benzema and Adebayor.
February 16th, 2009 at 14:56
@Beachryan: He is still doing conditioning work after the injury. No word on a timescale but he isn’t expected to be available for either Inter game.
February 16th, 2009 at 15:25
@ JB – Thanks. Bugger. Have missed watching him. Though like Rooney, I’m alright with our performance in the meantime
February 16th, 2009 at 15:27
@Beachryan: I will enjoy it, thank you.
I dont get to travle to Manchester so often, so when I do I enjoy it. Havent been there for a long while now. Hopefully we win.
Anderson will be back for the CC final. At earliest. The most probable return date is Inter at home, but he might play against Spurs.
February 16th, 2009 at 15:34
@JB: @Liam: To both of you, Benzema is a fucking bastard. In an interview with some French press Juninho admitted that Benzema is very “gangster-like”. He doesnt give shit about anybody else, and he may threat you if you disrespect him. He doesnt like to see people around him being better, and he is a fucking glory hunter. And not in a good way! Very selfish, and his kind of personality drove Ben Arfa away, Ive heard. Do I want that kind of player at United? Of cource not! We have different types in our dressing room, and I bet Benzi wouldnt fit in well. Ronaldo might be a prick sometimes, but he is friendly. We have the likes of Giggs, Scholes, Rio, Evra, Rooney, Carrick and Park here. Family and sosial people. Berbatov is new, but also friendly. I dont want a fucking gangster in our team. He might hurt a player on purpose!!!
Nah… Or maybe… 
And Etoo wanted out of Barca because he felt the racism was very harsh in Spain. Plus, Ronaldinho and Raikaard had together messed the atmosphere up, and not many players wanted to stay. And Etoo has always had the quality to be one of the worlds best strikers. He thought Barca wasnt right for him, and at that time who could disagree. Now is a different story.
February 16th, 2009 at 15:46
Okey, Im leaving now. Talk to you when Im in Manchester. Cheers, and hooray the lads!
February 16th, 2009 at 15:46
@RedDevilEddy: surely that’s a bit of an exaggeration. What’s he going to do, show up at training with an AK47 and start poppin’ caps in their asses
Don’t know if you’ve seen Anderson in normal clothes but I would describe his attire as very ‘Gansta’ like.
February 16th, 2009 at 16:09
@RedDevilEddy: I presume this is the comment in question.
Coupet slams gangster Benzema
Your comments seem a rather literal interpretation of the phrase gangster. The complaint seems to be that he has become surly but then the Count hardly appears a happy, go lucky character. Ironic that Coupet complains that his focus on himself makes part of the sport die yet we laud Ronaldo for the similar focus that has driven him in his efforts to become the best player in the world.
As for the relationship between Ben Arfa and Benzema the following article might put a different spin on it. To be honest things like these happen at football clubs, Sheringham and Andy Cole barely spoke to one another when they were both with us.
Relations frosty between Benzema and Ben Arfa
P.S. Eto’o didn’t put in a transfer request, Barcelona transfer listed him at the end of last season.
February 16th, 2009 at 17:35
@JB: Thank you very much dear Sir, good and informative match ratings. That was very much appreciated!
More or less confirmed some of the opinions I had, with some interesting insights…
@michael: Yeah, I was also a bit surprised by the talk of Giggs landing the awards.
Clearly he would have deserved them from his past career, but I think anyone who has been atching United up to now can see that our player of the year has been Vidic. On the other hand, if Giggs continues to play like he has been playing for the rest off the season (maybe with one or two good european performances) he could really edge Vidic in the standings for POTY et al.
@jos: Now that smacks of uninformed rethorics. Sorry but to suggest that Welbeck is on the same level as Benzema is stretching the imagination. Welbeck right now is a great little player slowly making his mark. Benzema, onm the other hand, is time and again bailing out an underperforming Lyon (compared to high standards they set themselves previously, what with Juninho growing old too). If it wasn’t for Benzema, Bordeaux would already be on top of Ligue 1. But I would definitley love it if Welbeck could indeed turn out to be world class though I doubt it – due to his tendency to “disappear” from games.
The true question is whether we really need him. I would venture a No, as JB said Roony and Berba are definitely starters, and that we also have Macheda who’s been doing really well in the youth ranks, as well as Ravel Morrisson, who has a fantastic scoring record for a midfielder.
February 16th, 2009 at 17:45
I am no Benzema fan either and I don’t personally want him here, but let’s be fair… Is he really the possessor of an awful character? Barring the usual suspects from Chelski, I can’t think of any footballer (well-known I mean) in the world having worse personality than Ronaldo.
Reading the Coupet article, I must also point out the phrase by Colgate – endorsing goalkeeper: “And seeing that makes me sad because I know him well and can tell you he is a top guy. But at the age of 20 he is already ‘the gangster.’”
February 16th, 2009 at 18:02
@Redrich: The point is this, Berbatov, Rooney and Tevez are our first team strikers. Even if Tevez leaves our starters are Rooney and Berba. We do not need a world class striker sitting on the bench feeling frustrated and becoming a distraction and a cancer. We are better served to promote Welbeck and bring back Frazier Campbell so these two young players can adequately play the role of strikers #3 and #4. If Tevez returns, then loan out either Campbell or Welbeck and make the other one #4. I do not see the need to spend a lot of money on somebody who will sit on the bench. Not when we have two players that in my eyes are ready to be given more responsibility and a longer run with the first team. Spend the money for a center midfielder or a goalkeeper for the future.
February 16th, 2009 at 18:04
@Darth Red Diablo: I also agree with you, and so does Scott of ROM, but to be honest I think that any knowledgeable fan of the “big four” want O’neill as their next manager…
February 16th, 2009 at 18:06
@john freakin’ o’shea: That’s a great observation. Foster for me has terrible positional sense and he is also a little slow to react to shots or crosses. That slight delay makes him look bad. That’s not a physical problem as it is mental. He seems adequate as a backup for a club like ours but he is in no way the heir to the throne. Adler, Boruc, Frey, Akinfeev, Neuer, Wiese, are all far superior young keepers that would be the heirs to that throne if given the opportunity. And yes, Adler is a United fan which would help in terms of signing him and getting him to stay loyal.
February 16th, 2009 at 18:08
@john freakin’ o’shea: His dislike for Benzema is sweet enough for me to forgive him for his Munich remark.
February 16th, 2009 at 18:17
@jos: Actually a good 40% of Munich hates Bayern because like Manchester it is a two team town. Many forget that the oldest club in Munich historically and traditionally is a team called 1860 Munich. Despite their fall from grace and positioning in Bundesliga 2, they still draw a large fan base and play in the Allianz Arena also. On those days the outside is colored blue and on Bayern home dates it’s colored red. That stadium is so cool.
February 16th, 2009 at 18:20
@jos: Actually, the whole of France were failures at Euro 2008, and the only reason why Domenech isn’t shown the door is that the French federation is broke. Right now, Domenech’s aura is comparable to that of McClaren’s end of regime.
February 16th, 2009 at 18:21
@JB: Yes I am aware of that JB and I watched the replay a number of times but I must say that I’m still not convinced that it was offside. But yes, it was very close. My frustration though goes back to a half dozen disallowed Ronaldo goals that were wrong calls and I just wonder if there is another player in world football that has had that many goals disallowed by borderline or wrong calls. It’s terrible luck and oh so frustrating.
February 16th, 2009 at 18:25
@Traverse: I find it kind of funny that after his couple of short auditions where he did absolutely nothing, Tosic seems to have become the forgotten man. I’d like to see more of him because Fergie needs to know if this lad is going to push Nani and Park for a starting position in the future.
February 16th, 2009 at 18:25
@Grognard: Your point about not spending the £30mil and promoting youth is a good one well made. I am not sure how likely it is mind. I’d love to see Campbell and Welbeck promoted (if Tevez does leave).
February 16th, 2009 at 18:47
@colver: Rossi stated yesterday that he has no interest in coming back to United to be a backup. Although he isn’t bitter, he did not enjoy his time sitting on the bench and rotting in the reserves when he was here and like all smart North Americans, he knows a bench position when he sees one. I’m often amazed how some player will go to a big team to sit on the bench fully knowing their are two or three players in front of them in the pecking order. I’ll never understand that. It must be a European and South American thing, because no pro sports star in North America would accept a trade to a team where his future would be up in limbo and there was a better than 50/50 chance he would be sitting on the bench. Rossi knows better and he knows that at Villarreal he starts and is counted upon every game.
February 16th, 2009 at 18:55
@JB: I think the bottom line that makes most of us dislike Benzema is not so much the moodiness or attitude but the loud allegiance and desire he has shown for Real Madrid. That alone places a round circle with a bar running through it on his chest. Verboten! I don’t want players who would prefer Spain and especially Real Madrid. Especially when the chances are high they would be our #3 striker. They can have him. I say sign up Carlito because at least he gives a damn about the club and has given his best for it up to now. It also looks that if you pay him properly, he is willing to accept the role he has been given.
February 16th, 2009 at 19:12
@Grognard: I don’t object to that as a reason not to sign him. I do have an issue if people start taking his desire to play in Spain and use it to paint him as having a bad attitude or temperament with no little or no other evidence to support it. It sounds more like sour grapes with regards to what happened with Madrid last summer than anything else.
@Nick: Lets say you go into next season with Rooney, Berbatov, Welbeck and Campbell as you strike force and we are fighting on all fronts and say Rooney breaks a bone in his foot and is out for ten weeks. Would you really be comfortable with two unproven kids as your only back up. As someone else said it isn’t as if either of them is a 18/19 year old Rooney. Campbell hasn’t been a rip roaring success at Spurs and whilst Welbeck has scored some good goals you would have to wonder if his all round game is developed enough at this stage.
February 16th, 2009 at 19:33
It’s a simple case of paranoia and mistrust. How can a team naively go after a player who has stated many times his dream and burning ambition is to play for Real Madrid? If we were Barcelona or either of the two Milan’s I’d still be concerned but not as much. I think the team matters to him but with some of these players, weather and culture mean a lot too and without disrespecting Northern England, it does seem to turn off a few. I mean if it was all just a case of playing for a team with a fantastic winning tradition, well I have news for Mr. Benzema, Real Madrid is not as great as United in that category over the past 20 years. And what they did in the 50’s and 60’s certainly doesn’t count now. This is why I always get upset with the appointing of Phelan as an assistant. Queiroz had pull with Latin speaking players. He gave them reason to come and a comfort zone that culturally was important. Now the players are left to help a player settle in and get acclimated to the new surroundings. In that scenario, United doesn’t have as much of a pull with that group of players as it once had.
February 16th, 2009 at 19:50
I just read Alan Hansen’s article on Giggsy on the BBC and he is one of those that is touting Giggs for PFA player of the year. With all due respect to Giggs whom I love, is he and the 50% that voted in their poll smoking something foreign and illegal? Honestly, how frakken stupid can some people be? Giggs has been excellent ever since the Chelsea game. Before that people were crying out loud for his retirement. He looked tired, slow and disinterested for the first 18 EPL games this season. But how people and even professional writers love to jump on the bandwagon. If Giggs had played from opening day until now like he has in his last seven competitive matches, then yes, he deserves that award. But he hasn’t. More respect and admiration should be shown to Nemanja Vidic for having the kind of dream season I have never seen before from a center back. Enough of the romantic sentimental BS. It’s time the most deserving player in the league got his due.
February 16th, 2009 at 20:09
@Grognard: Well my point is this. In the PL this season Berbatov has scored 6 in 21 apps., Rooney has scored 6 in 18 and Tevez has scored a stunning 3 in 18. These are hardly stats that makes me want to stand pat at the end of our year!
To suggest that we don’t act because it would be awkward for a star player to sit on the bench doesn’t address our needs and wont improve our scoring prowess. Welbeck and Cambell may well be our future, but not for a few seasons. Tevez hasn’t proved he’s worth the 30m price tag this year and with the apparent need for a different dimension to our strike force a change here seems appropriate.
I cite Benzema because SAF in a long time admirer and on the face of things he has the physical attributes and the scoring record to fit our bill. A big, strong and mean presence up front would, IMHO, complement the wonderful finesse play of Rooney and Berbatov.
February 16th, 2009 at 20:57
@Grognard: pretty harsh. giggs has been consistent all season. it was when he was played out wide, people were calling for his head.
February 16th, 2009 at 21:08
@Dan: Open your eyes mate. He was complete and total shite for the first half. He woke up against Chelsea and his been wonderful ever since. Even in the middle he sucked up until Chelsea. Look, I don’t like being harsh with Giggs because unlike Scholes, Giggs is one of my all time favorites. So if I think he was shite in the first half, he must have been because i am not immune to bias and playing favorites.
February 16th, 2009 at 21:16
@Redrich: The problem is that you are basing your value of our three forwards on goals only. How quickly you forget the other things they do for the club as well as Berbatov’s dozen assists and Rooney versatility and work ethic as well, Tevez can hardly be blamed for not scoring a lot considering he has sat on the bench for most games. Benzema may be a favorite of Fergie’s but Fergie and United are not favorites of Benzema’s. That’s an important factor. I’d rather have a Tevez who loves the club and it’s supporters stay, rather than a moody and selfish player like Benzema that already has enemies at Lyon and who dreams of a life with Real Madrid. Fergie needs to wake up on this and stop going after players who have stated their lack of interest in playing for our club. Go after an Aguero or a Huntelaar. They are examples of top strikers that do want to play for us and examples of players who are not entirely happy in Spain. It’s practical and it’s smart business. As for who starts, let the competition begin. I for one would never start Benzema over Rooney and Berbatov. I have stated for two years now that I feel he is overrated while others state that Huntelaar is. So fine, my compromise is Aguero. Now nobody can say that boy is overrated.
Still, if we lose Tevez, I am all for Campbell and Welbeck being promoted. We do not need a world class superstar sitting on the bench. Let 2 young English lads who are happy playing in England have that role until they mature enough to steal a starting position. In the meantime they can contribute like Ole and Sheringham used to.
February 16th, 2009 at 21:19
please can someone tell me why tevez wasnt playing today?
why did the worlds best player have to be on the pitch vs mediocer opposition out of position at that!!?
you can see when hes playin recently, espcially vs lowly opposition that he cant really be fucked, attitude stinks..
that clearly being the case why the fuck is he playing??
i just dont understand why does the boy have to play every fuckin game off the season??
is fergie too scared to drop him? how much influence does Ron have on the old boy??!
Or is Frgie simply trying to mentally destroy Tevez? the man must be so frustrated at the way hes been treated. hes such a great footballer & all round pro why treat him with such contempt?? i mean its just an embarrasment the way he has been treated this season far as im concerned. so many blatant snubs that are usually completely unjustified…
February 16th, 2009 at 21:31
@Grognard: Newcastle at home, our biggest attacking threat. Boro at home in the CC, good leadership and linked the midfield and attack very well all night. Good performances in CM against Aalborg away. Performs solidly as part of the attacking quartet in our best away performance in the first half of the season at Blackburn. Another good performance against West Brom at home from CM and tears Everton to shreds in the first half in the next game. Integral to the excellent attacking display at home against Blackburn in the CC. Comes on against Spurs and almost single handedly wins the game for us with a brilliant free kick and a couple of excellent crosses resulting in two good headed opportunities. Sets up three goals in the WCC semi final.
Sure you can pick out some bad games as well but if that is total and utter shite then god help the rest of the squad.
February 16th, 2009 at 21:35
@realred: All players are different. When they are out of form some need to play more games others need rest. Rooney for me is a good example of a player who needs to play virtually every game and does not thrive from being rested. Ronaldo may be similar, SAF may believe that the way to get him back up to speed is to play him into form.
As for Tevez, SAF stated in his press conference that he was rested for the league games this week.
February 16th, 2009 at 21:36
Tom heaton is saving cardiff’s ass
February 16th, 2009 at 22:01
k cheers jb, @ least i have some explanation….
February 16th, 2009 at 22:37
@realred: I think he rested Tevez because of the international he played. But I agree that if anybody needed a rest it was Ronaldo.
February 16th, 2009 at 22:40
@JB: Sorry JB but I rate his first half as terrible. Yes he had his moments but overall I think he was poor. And I know I’m not the only one that felt that way. Go back before the Chelsea game and read peoples comments after games. Giggs was not a popular guy int he first half. Frankly, I think you evaluations are bit kind and are filled with loyalty. I called them as I saw them and clearly we were not seeing the same thing. That’s fine, we can’t all agree.
February 16th, 2009 at 23:06
@Grognard: The measure of this game is goals!! If you don’t score them you will sooner or later fail in your attempts to win trophy’s.
I agree that forwards have other aspects of their game that can be equally as important but if we are to score more then a change in the dynamic of our strike force is needed.
I really don’t know about Benzema’s poor attitude toward United. If it’s true then of course we wont want him, but I think we need someone like him that offers a 3rd dimension along with speed and finesse.
February 16th, 2009 at 23:07
I’ve just started listening to the Stone Roses’ debut album…
Makes me wander what I have been doing all this time…
February 16th, 2009 at 23:17
@Grognard: Personally I think there was a Giggs is shit bandwagon rolling along before the Chelsea game. Consequently he was getting judged based on those preconceptions. The only thing the Chelsea game did was to provide such compelling evidence that it blew the notion he wasn’t performing out of the water. Mind you the press have now taken in to the other extreme and are calling for him to be POTY. A nice notion nostalgically, but unrealistic given the number of games he has played.
February 16th, 2009 at 23:29
I have an explanation for Benzema’s indifference towards us…
Many french players grow up while looking up to established players making their mark on the game internationally. Right now the most fanciable clubs from a french perspective are:
1. Arsenal
2. Real Madrid
This is because Wenger turning Arsenal into a success story based upon french foundations. Even 2 or 3 years ago, at a time when the dippers or us would have more or less the same number of established first team players, the biased french media would always laud Arsenal’s sexy football. We, on the other hand never had a genuine french superstar since Cantona, and that was at a time when the EPL’s broadcasting was not ubiquitous.
Zidane, on the other hand spent his best years at Real, being the star among stars in the galacticos. Benzema, being of north african origin and coming from (I suppose) modest origins would identify himself easily with Zidane.
He looks like a typical suburban kid enjoying rap and stuff, and I don’t expect him to be totally concsious of what signing for a circus club like Real means – no disrespect to suburban rap loving kids
…
February 16th, 2009 at 23:30
@JB: Sure don’t all the old, senile players just need to go and jump in a lake somewhere and let the amazing performers such as Nani and Possebon take their place? I mean what have our record appearance holder, our captain and the player who got us to the final of the CL last season ever done for us? VDS clearly needs to move over for a younger replacement too. Oh wait…
February 17th, 2009 at 0:17
@Liam: Ince, Robson, Mcclair and Hughes did fuck all for us too… How’d that turn out again?
February 17th, 2009 at 0:29
@Traverse: McClair and Robson both played for us pretty much until their legs gave way.
February 17th, 2009 at 0:51
Like Neville.
February 17th, 2009 at 0:54
@Traverse: Sorry you have lost me, haven’t a clue what your point is.
February 17th, 2009 at 7:59
@Redrich: If your stats is a motivation that we should buy a new striker, then it will at the same time be interpreted that SAF made a BIG, EXPENSIVE mistake in buying Berbatov. SAF will not let that happen. I was against the Berbatov purchase, but I can see the logic behind it, and quite frankly, half a season later, I’m happy about it. Truth is, Tevez was originally bought as a Rooney substitute. As unfair as what it seems (and as much as what it hurts me personally), SAF got him because we were too dependent on an injury-plagued Rooney at the time. Tevez provides the perfect foil for Rooney.
Regarding this Benzema nonsense. Why should we get him when we can have Rossi for about 1/3 of that price (Benzema won’t sit on the bench either). With Wellbeck and Campbell backing our main strikers Berbatov and Rooney/Tevez, I really can’t see the need for Benzema or any other striker. That will indicate a lack of vision from SAF.
I mentioned last week that Wellbeck reminds me of Henry, and Sunday he really confirmed that. I personally would love to see SAF use him more on the wing because I think he has class when he starts on the wing. If he progresses the way I can see he could, I then believe we have cover for Ronaldo on the wing.
February 17th, 2009 at 8:08
I still stand by my principle of Giggs and Scholes legend-hurting excurtions, but it appears I am starting to eat my words. Instead of feeling bad over it, I am actually very happy eating it for Giggs. He’s still my hero (like Anderson and Tevez).
February 17th, 2009 at 8:08
@Karl: Well said Karl. Couldn’t agree with youmore mate. Especially you points about Welbeck. Danny is showingme great versatility and I think he could end up being very valuable for us in the near future. And Benzema is the last thing this club needs, unless they are craving a cancer.
February 17th, 2009 at 8:15
Taking away his his goal on Sunday, I feel Gibson actually had a very good game. Much better than his previous outings in the 1st team.
Even so, the 2 Darren’s on Sunday just made me miss Anderson even more. Damn, I wish he could come back.
I was upset when I saw the line-up, but again, SAF humbled me. Nice. I do feel that even though we scored 4 goals, the game was very ’scrappy’, especially in midfield. But overall, nbot a bad performance. Feel sorry for Ronaldo, but I can see he is getting back to his best. Perhaps relinquishing free-kick duties every once in a while can help with his confidence?
The only dissapointment I have of this weekend is the fact that Fabio didn’t play. I would still love to see him in the same team as Rafeal. I guess I just need to be patient.
February 17th, 2009 at 9:19
Grog im with you 100% regarding giggsy, iv just kept my mouth shut coz thers little point fighting public opinion!!
I think hes been our main problem the entire season, i think his contribution has been incredibly limited considering how many games he’s played…
hes been beeter since chelsea game in fairness to the big man….dont get me wrong like veryone else i know that he is aserius legend in the game.. i just feel were really scarping the barrell now @ the age of 36, he aint gettin any better despite reports, his productivity is low ,, real low.
i mean it just angers me that he’s played such a large part of our seaon, think the situation aint been handled well at all. Nani’s development has seriously been halted by fergies long running loyalties this season. Giggs is our past, Nani is our future.
February 17th, 2009 at 10:24
@Karl: I miss Hargo more than Anderson, to me the Brazilian is a falacy, Gibson has scored twice for us and Anderson has failed to score ever.
I know he is young which everyone keeps teeling me and I do like the kid, but he only a year younger than Messi and Fabregas and when they were his age they were ceratinly more advanced. It is easy to blame Fergie but is Anderson the real deal or not? I will stress I hope the first option as I like the lad.
February 17th, 2009 at 10:30
@realred: Don’t get me wrong. I said that Giggs first half was not his best and that he has played very well since the Chelsea game. I worry that we are relying on him far too much and when it comes to crunch time in April and May, he won’t have anything left in the tank. Fergie must give Nani and Tosic more time to assert themselves. If for no reason than to rest Giggs for the stretch run at the end. My feelings are we will lose games at the end because we put to much reliance on Scholes, Giggs and Neville. Experience is great but not when the opposition is younger, better and faster. When we run in to good teams and need the points or the win in cup competitions, I wonder if those old boys will have the juice when it matters? It’s times like that when I really miss Hargo. Boy we will miss him when we get near the end of the season and everything is on the line. The kids need to step up big time.
February 17th, 2009 at 11:32
Hey everyone !
Haven’t written on here for a while and I need ma fix 
Been readin thru the comments and I noticed some different debates, so i’ll try and offer my meagre two-pence on each.
On Nani. IMO, I feel SAF’s handling of this lad comes down to two things, his lack of concentration and game appreciation. Something which is fortunately improving with every performance he has, why? Because by limiting his performances that bit more, he is forced to, when playing, concentrate more and be more productive(less selfish) in order to stake a claim for his place nxt time. Nani is a very talented player, but as most of us know, he does tend to drift in and out of games and exhibit poor decision making, which are side-effects of those two negative traits he has. Fergie is working on this and although we moan about him not playing now, he is getting better this way and in the future will be a more devastating player.
On Ando/Gibbo. Anderson for me, is stil an over-rated brazilian. Comparing him and Gibbo, I honestly feel Ando only has his strength, tenacity and younger age as advantages over Gibbo. Gibson is a better passer, more composed, better tactical dribbler(keep ball/possession), can shoot(and score) and doesn’t burn out by the 70th minute. Unfortunately, SAF is one to exploit player’s versatilities and because Gibbo can ‘almost’ play on the right, SAF has usually played him there to accomodate more positionally rigid players. It’s no co-incidence that Gibbo shone in the last game when he actually played in the middle, or in the other few games he has. Like Solksjear said, ‘the lad is a Ferrari, the only problem is gettin that ferrari out of the garage’.. and I hope playing him in the Carling Cup final will help ignite that engine.
On Benzema. I still like this player and would like to see him at OT. He is fast, agile, good with both feet, can head the ball, dribble, pass and most importantly, score goals. Take away his obsession for Real Madrid and he is the perfect striker for us. However, it is inevitable that grumblings and locker-room divides would begin to occur when we have so many stars on the bench; what with the media aiding and abeting, I mean, look at the fuss made over tevez missing just a few games? We have some promising youngsters and I for one am ready to take a gamble on them; Welbeck, Campbell, Macheda, even Petrucci. These lads were bought or developed to play for United and I see no reason why they shouldn’t be given a try, instead of spending £30mil on players who are likely to leave us in the future. Also, as much as I love Rossi, he doesn’t have the physical attributes to survive in the prem and would almost certainly be a flop.
On Giggs. Fair enough, the recent love-in does seem OTT. But people have to remember, Giggs is not a natural Central midfielder, like Phelan said, he is re-inventing himself and this takes time. Thankfully, it seems he is gettin excellent in this central role and the dividends are beginning to show. Maybe the calls for him to be Player of the year are borne out of sentimentality, but this is a player that has played the longest in the premiership, shining right from it’s beginning, broken all sorts of records and displays the utmost professionalism. Now, at 35 yrs of age and in the twilight of his career, it would be more than befitting for Giggs to carry that award, even if he half deserves it.
February 17th, 2009 at 11:58
Giggs has played well since the Chelsea game and on current form he is definitely a fixture in central midfield. The games where he has played upfront (like the Derby game) and on the wing, he has not impressed. So if we are going to play him at least keep him in central midfield.
However I also doubt that he can keep this up and if his form drops our season will suffer. A priority signing this summer should be a midfield playmaker who can replicate what Giggs has been doing for us these past weeks.
I don’t have any stats at hand, but I think Giggs is probably in the top 3 in terms of assists.
I miss Hargo like hell as well. Im facing up to the reality that because of his injuries he’ll never be able to play a regular role in the first team. Anderson hasn’t been as good this season. Fletcher is mediocre. Gibson has only had one good game against a Championship side. It is no wonder that we’ve settled on Giggs and Carrick as our first choice midfield pairing.
I also worry about Rooney getting injured for six weeks next season and having to play Welbeck or Campbell alongside Berbatov.
Still Tevez hasn’t done an awful lot with the run of first team games he’s got in Rooney’s absence. He has been good but just confirmed that he is overvalued at 20M plus the 10 million we’ve already paid. That is the bulk of our summer budget and we need that money to buy a central midfielder.
Welbeck I like and think he has a lot of potential and can slowly over the next few years be phased into the third striker role. Id also like to see him get some games as the right forward in a 4-3-3.
Campbell I think we should sell to raise some transfer funds. We’d get 10 million for him because he is British. He has not really impressed me when he played for Tottenham and all the hype about him is on the back of a good season in the Championship.
If there is no-one else available who could accept the role of third striker and be bought for less than Tevez, then maybe it is better to be ripped off for Tevez and be sure to rotate him to keep him fresh.
February 17th, 2009 at 12:37
@colver: Giggs is top of the assist chart for all competitions, with 14 (Ronaldo and Berbatov next up on 9 each).
February 17th, 2009 at 14:12
@JB: i dont believe that for second given the fact that he has less then 5 in the PL, who told you that?
February 17th, 2009 at 14:17
@Gabriel: ive always liked gibson, but to say that gibson is better then anderson is down right crazy! he isnt anywhere near the class anderson is!
February 17th, 2009 at 14:20
@realred: Giggs and Nani play in different positions, Nani is his own worst enemy with his inconsistency, and his decision making.
Tevez didn’t play on Sunday as there is a game on Wednesday.
February 17th, 2009 at 14:56
@Dan: Overall, Ando is a much brighter ‘prospect’, I know that. What I said in my post is that in certain aspects of the game, Gibbo trumps Anderson and vice versa. I didn’t say either was a better player.
February 17th, 2009 at 14:58
@Grognard: The Phelan isuue always gets brought up, but nobody knows what he does or doesn’t do, if CQ was still at the club he would be the one getting credit for our recent clean sheet record. Does anyone believe that Fergie would appoint a total muppet as his number 2?
February 17th, 2009 at 15:14
@Stephen: I used to be among the ‘Phelan Witchunt’ mob, but i’m beginning to see a correlation between his appointment and our defensive solidity. Is it any co-incidence that as soon as Phelan – a former defender – became ass man, we began to enjoy more clean sheets while still ‘trying’ to play our attacking brand of footy? I don’t think so. Clean sheets, need I say, which have been vital to our current positioning in several competitions, what with our attack stuttering early on, due to Berba’s arrival and our other attacker’s timid attempts at goals. The guy shares similarities with Steve Clarke(former chelski, now west ham ass-man) and I for one am happy a red-at-heart is doing such a great job for us. At least, unlike a certain Carlos Q, he won’t readily jump ship as soon as any other tantalising offer appeared on the table.
February 17th, 2009 at 15:16
@Gabriel: we where great defensively last season to! phelan is still muppet!!
February 17th, 2009 at 15:17
@Stephen: yes, because he has!
February 17th, 2009 at 15:20
@Gabriel: He was a midfielder mate, but I agree if he was foreign people would be saying he is a genius, and I agree he won’t leave us to forward HIS career.
@Dan: What are you basing that on mate?
February 17th, 2009 at 15:43
@Stephen: true mate, he was a right back too, wasn’t he? anyways, it’s easy to blame the local guy sometimes and I was guilty of doing it too. However, Phelan is doin a great job and the players, including the junior members, do seem to be able to function properly in the team, irrespective of when and where they play. The squad is in great shape and the whole backroom staff deserve some credit too.
February 17th, 2009 at 15:49
@Dan: The stats I saw from him have him with 4 in the PL, 2 in the CL, 2 in the FA Cup, 3 in the CC and 3 in the CWC.
February 17th, 2009 at 15:49
@Gabriel: He was a a CM ideally but filled in similar to Fletch.
I agree calling him a muppet really has no grounds, nobody really knows what he does or not do, because he doesn’t put his hands together in prsying form and isn’t European may have something to do with it. All I can say is we are well organised and things are going well, so if we blame him for the lack of form earlier in the season surely we should praise for the recent shuts outs?
Truthfully I believe the success is down to the manager, and people calling for his head earlier in the season really shut hang their heads, it is a long season and sometimes you have to play ugly to win and that is what we did. All sides want points of the European Cup winners and play for that, and everyone at the club deserves credit.
February 17th, 2009 at 15:59
@Stephen: To be fair we don’t really know what impact the coaching staff has at times. But if Phelan was being blamed for our difficulties earlier in the season then the least we can do is give him equal credit for our recent good form and defensive solidness.
I will not lie and say I don’t have any reservations about him as our number two. I would have liked to have seen an outsider come in to bring in some new ideas, someone with a bigger network abroad, or someone with a bigger tactical reputation. But the difficulty with CQ was that he such a good number two that it was always going to be difficult to keep him long term. IMO we were essentially running with two managers while he was here. That said there is no one better placed that SAF to pick his OWN number two.
I wonder what our perception or him would be if he was called Phelinho, didn’t wear shorts all the time and had been picked up from a Spainish club…….
February 17th, 2009 at 16:15
@JB: I agree but having someone as a number 2 who knows the inner working of the club, and the Premiership has bennefits too, ask Wenger he has Pat Rice.
Fergie has got a decent record in appointing number two’s, Knox, Kidd, McClaren were also good assitants, so maybe we have to bow to his judgement, because he would never apoint a muppet.
February 17th, 2009 at 16:41
@realred: By my rough head count Giggs has made 19 starts this season, with eight of them as a winger. Since Nani exclusively plays as a wide man this would be the only time that Giggs would be in direct competition with him and effecting his development. Yet in those eight games, Nani has played on the opposite wing four times, was suspended for one and given time off in Portugal during another. So that is two games he has been directly responsible for keeping Nani out of the team. Let’s just hope that Nani does not have a similar propensity for blaming everybody else for his lack of progress or he will likely never make it with us.
As for productivity his joint goal/assist tally stands at 17, joint third for the team. Only Berbatov and Ronaldo can better his tally. Not bad for a 35 year old guy that has had made fairly limited appearances in comparison to his direct competitors.
February 17th, 2009 at 16:46
@Stephen: True, but conversely CQ brought a great deal to us in terms of fresh ideas, tactical innovations, expanded scouting networks and modern medical and training practices. I suppose it depends on what SAF was looking for, revolution or consolidation. Regardless the appointment seems to be working well enough so far.
February 17th, 2009 at 17:24
@JB: I agree but in his first term at the club people were critising CQ for his negative football, but all i am trying to state as I believe you are that Phelan really isn’t a muppet or a fool, maybe not everyones first choice as number 2 but he isn’t doing a bad job judging the results.
February 17th, 2009 at 17:42
@Stephen: Ironic that CQ was the scapegoat for everything going wrong in 2005 and then was talked about as the mastermind for all the success at the start of this season. I suppose it shows the inherent difficulties in judging coaching staff from a position outside of the club (or the black and white attitudes of supporters).
February 17th, 2009 at 17:48
@JB: Spot on mate, also he has left us twice and who sayes he won’t again, I certainly wouldn’t want him as our next manager as his record regardless of how you interpret it isn’t good.
I will not forget that he did a superb job for our club no doubt but he is now history and we just need to move on, abd we are not in a bad position this season without him.
February 17th, 2009 at 17:55
i think someone mentioned Tom Heaton on loan at Cardiff and was excellent yesterday….pulled of miraculous saves left and right against arsenal yesterday..almost reminded me of Shay Given…he is a starter for them and kid is very talented with a good head on his shoulders…i believe he should be given a chance here
February 17th, 2009 at 18:56
@Stephen: One thing I know Phelan doesn’t do is speak Spanish or Portuguese. And that was the point I was making. It had nothing to do with coaching as much as it was a statement regarding some foreign players needing a father figure who they could talk to in their own tongue. CQ offered those players that. Phelan in no fault of his, obviously can’t. I think that this is hurting the team because Anderson, Nani, the Twins, Possebon and even Ronaldo need to be able to freely discuss team issues in their native tongue to someone that will listen. This more than anything is the number one reason why players from South America prefer playing in Spain. LANGUAGE.
February 17th, 2009 at 19:01
@Grognard: What about Berba, Vidic, Evra, Tosic, Tevez who don’t speak Portuguese you can’t base the side around those players soley.
We don’t know they need a father figure, why should they discuss issues in their tongue, this could create a problem of its own, also mate South americans play in Spain also for the weather.
February 17th, 2009 at 19:01
@Gabriel: I’d sooner sacrifice a few more goals against in order to open up a free our attacking players and let them be themselves. Instead of tracking back all the way and having forwards take on marking duties. For example, people blamed the goal we gave up against Berby on Welbeck not marking the player. Well I’m sorry but a striker has no business tracking back that far anyway. He should be nearer to the center of the pitch preparing for a run that will free him for a more direct ball that will start a counter attack. I’m not big on the Rooney style of forward play that requires a lot of defensive work from my forwards. They are paid to score goals, not prevent them. Under Phelan they have forgotten how to score goals and do a better job preventing them. I for one do not prefer this.
February 17th, 2009 at 19:02
@Dan: Well said Dan. Couldn’t agree more. Phelan is indeed a muppet and total wanker to boot.
February 17th, 2009 at 19:05
@Stephen: No I disagree, I think we should call him a muppet. Why not? I think muppet suits him well. Now if he was only purple.
February 17th, 2009 at 19:05
@Grognard: A muppet and a wanker?, thats far too harsh mate and unfair.
February 17th, 2009 at 19:14
fergie is to blame for choosing phelan , i dont have anything against him really.
February 17th, 2009 at 19:17
@JB: We have had nine 1-0 wins this season. On the chance that we tied four or five of those 1-0 wins instead of being lucky to get that one solitary goal, I think we all would be calling for Phelan’s head. My point is we have been awfully lucky with our decisions this year because frankly 1-0 doesn’t cut it in my books. We have been playing with fire by not playing the style we have become to accustomed to. Less pace, fewer shots at goal, more delaying tactics, calling off the dogs once we get a lead, these are all tactical choices in my opinion and they were never choices that Fergie has become famous for. No they are the choices of a defensive minded coach. Mike Phelan is the obvious choice. Subtract 8 points from our total and we would all be crying for his head on a spike.
So forgive me if I am one of the loud ones calling him a muppet because I feel he has had a lot to do with our significant decrease in offensive output this season. Last season we only gave up 21 goals in the EPL so there is no reason to think that our solid defense is a case of Phelan’s so called genius. Also, if he has a lot to do with the training of players, he may have a lot to do with the increasing and alarming number of leg injuries this season that have had nothing to do with contact. Perhaps he hasn’t been getting the boy as physically fit as they need to be to avoid injury. That’s just a theory of mine and I could be wrong, but then again, I have no problem blaming 9/11 and the economic downturn on Phelan because frankly, I don’t like him and I think he has hurt the team’s quality and style of play. If I didn’t know better, I’d swear his name was Phelani and he was Italian, because Unite dhave played very much like an Italian team this year.
February 17th, 2009 at 19:25
@Stephen: They aren’t Latin. It’s the South American’s, Spanish and Portuguese that act like babies and who need fatherly cuddles every day. Don’t ask me why but culturally they get homesick a lot more than a Pole or a Czech or a Russian. Culturally they are emotional and highly volatile people and they need somebody who can realate to them to help keep them in line and happy. Just look at how much better Tevez, Anderson and Nani were last year. If they had issues or concerns, they went to CQ and had a talk. Who do they talk to now? I just don’t see players like Vidic and Evra and others needing that social and language bonding and warm shoulder like the Latino contingent. It’s not just language, it’s a cultural thing and these players show insecurity or even homesickness at times. CQ was a savior for us in these matters. Just my opinion.
February 17th, 2009 at 19:29
@Stephen: Oh well Stephen, you are just going to have to live with it, now won’t you? Life isn’t fair and I’m not going to take it back because I never called anybody on this site that. Just a coach who I don’t care about and who I think should be working for somebody like Millwall or Blackpool, and not wasting my time and the time of millions screwing with the greatest club in the world. Ours is an international club and we need an assistant that is qualified for that kind of tactical and social dynamic. Phelan isn’t qualified to coach the LA Galaxy for crying out loud.
February 17th, 2009 at 19:30
@ROOOOONEY: Proof positive, Fergie isn’t perfect. Like all of us, he can make an error in judgment too.
February 17th, 2009 at 19:53
@Grognard: You’ll forgive if I don’t think at argument holds much water. True we would be worse off if some of these 1-0 wins were draws but then you could say the same about our draws this season. A more pertinent set of statistics might be the number of one goal margin wins. In the first 24 fixtures this year 9, last year it was 7. Marginal difference in my book. You could easily apply your same if, but, maybe analysis to last season.
Overall our points total is three points down on last season, given the distribution of the away fixtures this year I think we stand pretty much where we were last year. Again goal tally is down six in the corresponding time period. Factor in front loaded away fixtures and Ronaldo’s dip in form and the current goal tally is not unreasonable in comparison to last year.
To be frank I don’t think anybody is calling Phelan a genius (or at least not seriously). But to be honest there is nothing that suggests to me he is the complete muppet you like to make out. Seems to me that the man was judged on appointment and that judgment stands. Can you honestly say if we had scored another 8-9 goals this season in the league that you would be praising his impact? I somehow doubt it.
As for the injury situation, wouldn’t have anything to do with the seven additional fixtures and trip to Japan this year would it? Since the fitness team is the same one that was being used last year.
February 17th, 2009 at 20:07
We don’t necessarily need a Latin assistant manager. But it would make sense to have a Latin coach who can help our Latin players develop and be someone they can talk to about personal issues.
We have the twins, Possebon, Ronaldo, Nani, Anderson……that is SIX players who have Portuguese as a first language. Do we have anyone on our coaching staff who can speak Portuguese? I doubt it!
February 17th, 2009 at 20:21
@JB: The point I was making JB was that when a team is playing well offensively and creating chances galore, the occasional defensive hiccup is OK. This season we are not creating the same amount of chances and so I would say that many of our 1-0 victories have been much more fortunate than 1 goal victories last year. Bottom line is I would take a 3-2 win knowing we created 10 good chances to score than I would take a 1-0 win where we had two or three good chances to score. Law of averages is going to catch up to us in a couple of those 0-0 games we have been in and that we have salvaged late. Against West Ham we really created two good scoring chances in my opinion and two or three more half chances. That’s just not good enough. Concentrating too much on defense is great if you are always guaranteed a clean sheet but that too will eventually come to an end. When it does, will we have the offensive response to outscore our opponents? I hope so.
So with all due respect, my argument does hold water because it’s based on the law of averages and our limited creation of goal scoring opportunities. It’s not about where we were last year and how we compare. Like i have said before, statistics are for losers. The bottom line is we are playing this season at a different offensive level than last. Our defense may seem better but really, it’s not that different. Last year we were outstanding defensively but we also played a game with more pace and more imagination. Our play around the opponent’s box this season has been woeful at times. Our breakdown in that area and our poor finishing at times has betrayed all the other great aspects of our game. Ronaldo’s dip in form is the main reason. Last year we were so dependent on his offensive contributions and he delivered. This year we still play the same way but slower, more plodding and Ronaldo isn’t the same player this year. Bottom line is that nobody, not Rooney, Tevez, Berbatov or Nani have picked up the slack. That has more to do with the system we play and the fact that when we move the ball around, we still seem to drawn into getting the ball to Ronaldo rather than trying to free somebody else. When Carrick has been on his game, he has made a constructive effort to find Berbatov with some fine long balls that have turned into goals. We need more of that. We need to put more pressure on others to score goals and take the pressure of Ronaldo. That requires offensive restructuring and re coordinating our attacking style. Sitting back and being patient for that one goal in a 0-0 game is eventually going to cost us.
I’ve noticed leaks in our back four of late but we have been fortunate not to get punished. With any luck, West Ham could have scored 2 or 3 against us, but they didn’t. So the beat goes on but I wonder when we will be found wanting defensively and whether our offense will be there to pick up the slack. Anyway, it’s an interesting subject because it’s messing with the old “if it’s not broken, why fix it theory”. As long as we win, what does it matter whether it’s 4-1 or 1-0? Well, I just feel more secure personally knowing that we are capable of scoring two goals a game, as opposed to one, especially on the road and especially against the big clubs.
Also, I know the traveling to Japan and the injuries have all played a role in this but surprisingly, it has not hurt us defensively. Offense needs time to gel. And lineups can’t constantly be rotated if this is to happen. Ask Rafa.
February 17th, 2009 at 20:27
@JB: Regarding Phelan. You know I wouldn’t have a problem with him if his title was just one of the coaches on the team. The problem I have is that he is second in charge and for me, he isn’t qualified to be that. So I call him names out of frustration because I do feel he has a lot to answer for. But I also am willing to give him credit in helping our already great defensive team be that much better. It’s in attack and in communicating with some of our foreign contingent and helping motivate and calm them down where I feel he has failed. But Fergie also has to take some of that blame now doesn’t he? Still, I am pleased overall with our position because we overcame a Hellish first half schedule and hopefully if we keep the pedal to the medal, we will run away with it in the second half. Honest, I’m not all doom and gloom.
February 17th, 2009 at 20:31
@colver: That is the crux of the point I was trying to make and you said it beautifully. If we are going to make a constructive effort and build this team around Portuguese and Spanish speaking player, then we need a coach and a motivator who can deal with them on a day to day basis. And I’m not talking just an interpretor. They need a father figure, a mentor a coach who can help them deal with the rigors, pressures and requirements of playing for such a big club in a foreign land that is so different than where they come from socially and weather wise. Well said mate.
February 17th, 2009 at 21:05
@Grognard: The point you were making is about the security of our results and our insurance against unknowns (essentially 1-0 wins are fragile). However I have seen nothing to suggest that a 3-2 win is anymore secured than a 1-0. You argue that law of averages will catch up on the 1-0 and you are likely correct. But law of averages will catch up on 3-2 results as well. Eventually you will come up against defensively secure teams and come unstuck. Six of one, half dozen of another. The difference is 3-2 games are more entertaining to watch and are (and I’m fairly confident in this assumption) your natural preference. The attitude of ‘you score three, we will score four’ is no more a guarantee for points than a clean sheet mentality.
I can’t agree with your comment that it doesn’t matter where we were last year. You mentioned nine 1-0 wins but what does that really mean without any form of context or comparison? I agree with much of the rest of your critique on our style. If I may speak on your behalf, the main thrust of the argument seems to be we are too based around Ronaldo offensively and when his form dips, we suffer. All fair points but given that this team set-up and focus on Ronaldo appears to be at least partially driven by CQ, I can’t see how it can be used as a stick to beat Phelan with. Would CQ have set the team up completely differently to reduce our reliance on Ronaldo this season? Maybe, maybe not but either way the system was not Phelan’s brainchild.
On the point of rotation, the following article raises a few interesting points.
Sir: The Old Dog and his New Tricks
@Grognard: All I’m asking for. As I said I have reservations myself but I doubt the man is as useless as is made out.
P.S. On stats, they are for losers if they are the sole basis of an argument, but I wouldn’t dismiss them so casually. However you might consider using them sometimes, they can provide useful context and factual back up for arguments and at times they have surprised and challenged some of the preconceptions I hold
February 17th, 2009 at 21:07
@colver: I agree but being Latin would be more a tie-breaker for me. I’d rather get the most capable candidate, with nationality as a bonus.
February 17th, 2009 at 21:51
@Grognard: “I am going to live with that won’t I”, thanks for that and I have never adressed you like that.
All I was saying there was no need for calling someone who you simply don’t rate a wanker to me is not justified, and trust me I know about the ups and downs of life I am not a kid.
February 17th, 2009 at 23:01
I think these 1-0 wins have a lot to do with the personnel. If you have primarily defensive minded players it is natural you end up playing defensively.
We no longer play with two natural wingers….we play with Park a defensive winger. In central midfield we have Carrick and Fletcher who are primarily defensive minded and Anderson who to me seems more of a hustler than the attacking midfielder he was billed as. Giggs has been great as an attacking midfielder but we can’t rely on a 35 year old all the time.
Rooney’s absence and Ronaldo’s poor form are HUGE reasons for all these 1-0s. The backbone of our goal total last year was the Rooney/Ronaldo factor. Rooney is the heartbeat of our attack. Ronaldo (on form) is our best finisher by a country mile and last season was absolutely ruthless in front of goal. You can also factor in Evra’s suspension/injuries.
We were raised on attacking football. But the major reason for our improvement in Europe last season was a better defence. I have too many memories of European nights when we concede two or three goals in a game and go out on away goals rule or just get outscored over two legs. That Barcelona 4-0 defeat from the 90s hurts like hell still, that Milan game when Kaka scored two against us pisses me off as well, hell the first leg against Roma when we lost 3-2, the Real Madrid game we lost 4-3 or something. Great entertainment but that is not how you win in Europe.
If we do not concede at home and get an away goal…..we have a pretty good chance of going through whether that is against Barcelona, Inter, Bayern or any other of the favourites. That would have been unthinkable a few seasons ago. But we did it last season and if our defence holds up and one of Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez, or Berba scores over the two legs that seems doable.
February 17th, 2009 at 23:10
@Grognard: it’s not like we don’t have anyone in the backroom staff speaking Spanish or Portuguese. That Rene guy is our first team coach and I’m sure there are more.
February 17th, 2009 at 23:18
@colver: Im pretty sure Park and Nani attack about the same amount of times during a game. In fact Nani could learn from Park with regards attacking movement IMO.
@Grognard: the team is hardly built around Spanish and Portuguese players. Ronaldo is the only first team starter who is Latin. Maybe you could count Tevez too but if you get into this then you are going to need people speaking about 5 languages. Also is there a problem with players learning English
February 17th, 2009 at 23:33
@JB: If you scored three, your confidence to score four is greater especially since you must have created enough chances to get three in the first place. On the other hand, if you only scored one, that indicates a defensive approach or more difficulty creating opportunities to score. This of course is not always the case but it usually is 8/10 times. I’d rather have the confidence to go for a 4th than to struggle to get the 2nd because offensive confidence is so rare in the game today.
February 17th, 2009 at 23:37
@JB: Considering how easily footballers can go in and out of form, statistics, especially from a past season are not that valid. I’m a statistic nut when it comes to sport like baseball where the stats to speak volumes and where player seem to play more consistently for longer periods of time than footballers. Again, this may be a bias I have because I was born in North America but I find football stats to be a waste of time. I’m willing to admit that I may be wrong though.
February 17th, 2009 at 23:41
@Stephen: Stephen, you are being overly sensitive. That was not meant as an insult to you. It was just me saying that no matter what, I’m set on my opinion and nothing is going to change it on that topic. Problem with words on the internet is that they can be misunderstood because the intent and the emotion behind them isn’t always clear. That’s why they invented smileys. Perhaps I should have used a smiley there so that you wouldn’t have taken that comment like you did. Sorry for the misunderstanding you got. Nothing malicious was intended.
February 18th, 2009 at 4:45
@JB: Well a 1-0 win infers that you have a very good defense and an OK offense. On the other hand a 3-2 win says that you have a potent offense and a leaky defense. Kind of depends where you see your priorities. However, a 3-0 win can only suggest the best on both ends of the pitch.
February 18th, 2009 at 5:14
on a lighter note, For twins to feature in a match together on a professional level. when did it last happen, if ever? (I suppose it did considering our twins played together their entire lives)
i personally cant wait to see it happen for the red devils. i am relishing the novelty of the idea.
February 18th, 2009 at 5:26
Phelan, to me, has taken some unfair stick from this blog. He is after all the assistant to SAF and not the second coming!! His contributions are hard to quantify because we don’t see behind the scenes at OT. At any rate to delegate either blame or kudos in his direction would be at best, purely speculative!
With the whole football world, assumingly, droping their CV’s in SAF’s inbox, there is probably a reason why he chose Phelan. Could this just be the man he trusts to do the “SAF thing”?
I’m also not sure that he doesn’t speak Spanish or Portuguese, but assuming he doesn’t, the use of an interpreter for those not yet speaking English would be a simple solution, I think, and one they’ve probably acted on.
February 18th, 2009 at 5:31
@Wink: Not only a novelty but a tough exercise in player identification.
February 18th, 2009 at 6:29
@Redrich: It’s not a case of an interpreter as much as it’s a case of feeling comfortable culturally and ethnically with somebody and knowing you can talk to them if you are having problems or you are concerned about something. This does not work with an interpretor. One on one talks are very personal and they build trust. Bringing in an interpretor does not work.
February 18th, 2009 at 6:35
@Redrich: The point isn’t that I would prefer us to have 9 straight 3-2 wins over 9 straight 1-0. In that case I would prefer the 1-0 wins because a consistently leaky defense is a major problem. What I was trying to get across is that I trust a team to be able to score late in a game when they are tied 2-2 as opposed to when they are tied 0-0. The fact that they created enough chances to score two goals already, tells me that they have the ability and confidence to snatch the winner. 0-0 on the other hand can go either way and may just stay that way as it does not send confidence swarming through the team.
A team that can score goals is more difficult to beat because the opponent has always got to be cautious and protect against a goal. A team that struggles to win games 1-0 may have a tight defense but as we know, no defense is infallible and in time they will be breached. Can we count on the team to score the necessary amount of goals to win a game when our defense has had a bad day? That is my concern.
February 18th, 2009 at 11:56
@Grognard: No worries mate
February 18th, 2009 at 13:02
Well we finally get the ‘game in hand’ stuff out of the way tonight, and get our ‘true’ place in the league affirmed. Obviously all the signs point to a victory (Fulham have barely scored on the road, our OT record this year is ridiculous) but it’s not all quite that simple. We know Fulham will set up shop and try to stop us scoring, but hopefully a fresh Berbatov and fresh-ish Tevez can do the business. Fulham work very hard and in Hangaaland have one of the best defenses in the league, we certainly won’t be trying the high ball trick!
I think we’ll win, and if we score early I can see it as a real cathartic experience for the boys. I’m bizarrely predicting a first goal from a Ronaldo free-kick, purely based on chance dictating he has to score eventually
—————VDS————–
-Rafa—-Rio——–Vida–Evra–
——–Carrick—Scholes——-
–Park—————–Ronaldo–
————-Berbatov———–
————–Tevez————-
February 18th, 2009 at 13:52
my team for today:
vds
Da silva(is better then da gold)
evans
vidic
Da silva(is better then da gold)
nani
carrick
giggs
tosic
berbatov
ronaldo
February 18th, 2009 at 14:53
@Dan: Fergie won’t play the two Da Silva’s and Evans, he will play Nev, Vida and Evra or Tosic.
February 18th, 2009 at 15:39
@Dan: gotta say i like that team! don’t know if it’ll happen though, isn’t Teves due a run out?
February 18th, 2009 at 16:22
@Redrich: Can you imagine if both Da Silvas were on the field and in a corner situation, they were both the last men in defence? (as most fullbacks are in offensive corner siutations)
The Opposition gets the ball and tries a fast break with the striker leading and he sees two players who look alike come at him? bet he would be confused.
Or if one if the twins make a last ditch tackle and commit a foul and gets a card, who does the ref give it to?
man, i really cant wait for it to happen honestly…
February 18th, 2009 at 16:45
I think Evans and Rio will start. They need to become comfortable with each other for the Inter game.
I would so love for the twins to both play.
When exactly is Anderson due back?
Why did we buy Tosic in mid-season if he’s not playing?
February 18th, 2009 at 16:48
@Wink: I was interested about the twins thing so i found these out:
Hamit and Halil Alt?ntop, Turkish football players(Schalke)
Archil and Shota Arveladze (born 1973), Georgian international footballers(Dynamo Tbilisi,Trabzonspur)
Vasili and Aleksei Berezutskiy, Russian football players (CSKA Moscow)
Guillermo and Gustavo Barros Schelotto (born 1973), Argentine football (Boca Juniors)
Philipp and David Degen, Swiss national footballers(FC Basel)
Frank and Ronald de Boer (born 1970), Dutch international football players(Ajax, Barcelona, Rangers)
Lukáš and Tomáš Došek, (born 1978) Czech football players (Sk Slavia Praha)
Miguel and Javier Flaño, Spanish footballers(Pamplona)
Hossam and Ibrahim Hassan, Egyptian footballers(Ahly , Zamalek)
David and Peter Jackson (born 1937), English footballers(Wrexham, Bradford City,Tranmere Rovers, Altrincham…)
Erwin and Helmut Kremers (born 1949), Germany international footballers(Fc Schalke 04)
Kazuyuki and Koji Morisaki (born 1981), Japanese footballers (Sanfrecce Hiroshma)
Antonio and Emanuele Filippini (born 1973), Italian footballers (Livorno)
Dennis and Gérard de Nooijer, Dutch footballers(SC Heerenveen, FC Dordrecht)
Andreas and Thomas Ravelli, Swedish footballers (Osters
Cristian and Damiano Zenoni (born 1977), Italian footballers (Pistoiese)
all these twins played together at some stage, not as unusual as you would think!
February 18th, 2009 at 17:17
@Stephen: evra or tosic? they play in different positions…
February 18th, 2009 at 17:24
@Dan: Sorry mate, I meant Fergie will start Evra not Fabio, and he also won’t start Tosic, probably Park.
February 18th, 2009 at 17:25
@Karl: I suppose he bought him to settle in for the later part of the season really for next season.
February 18th, 2009 at 17:34
@Karl: Tosic was in the middle of a winter break when we signed him, and i believe he was working his way back from injury (don’t quote me on that though).
He’s a good young player in a new league learning a new language and stepping up a massive degree in quality terms (no disrespect to Partizan), he also has 3 or 4 players ahead of him in the pecking order all of whom are tried and trusted.
Give Tosic time, he’ll come good, he just needs to regain his fitness and grow into the squad. Buying him mid-season is a great idea as it gives him half a season to prepare for next season when his role in the squad starts in earnest.
February 18th, 2009 at 17:36
@Stephen: i know they wont start, that team is who i FEEL should start, not who i THINK
February 18th, 2009 at 17:38
Talking about tonight’s game i would love to see a rout. People keep sayings “United win 1-0 and they’re the best team in the world, but George Graham’s Arsenal win 1-0 and they’re boring!” Well to those people i tell them to try watching us, sure we’re not sticking them in the back of the net, but we’re light years ahead of that dull Arsenal side. Those goals WILL come, and at home so far this season we’ve turned Old Trafford back into the terrifying fortress it used to be.
I’d like to see the following team:
VDS
Rafael, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra
Ronaldo, Carrick, Scholes, Nani
Tevez, Berbatov.
I think Nani did well against Derby and his unpredictability can lead to goals. I can’t wait to have Rooney back when he is brought on in the second half for a run out
February 18th, 2009 at 17:40
@Dan: Fair play matey, will be great to see the twins start I must say, but their time will come and it’s not too far off!
February 18th, 2009 at 18:01
@Grognard: I agree with all of that, mate. But 3-0 is better than 3-2 and better than 1-0. So our next logical step would be to improve offense while maintaining our dominating defense!!
February 18th, 2009 at 18:08
@Grognard: I would say that if feeling “culturally comfortable” was a big issue for these players then I suggest one of two things. (A) Stay at home or (B) learn English. After all it’s their careers that are at stake!!
February 18th, 2009 at 18:29
team news anyone?
February 18th, 2009 at 18:51
@phoenix red: Thanks for that research mate. That was very eye opening. Many more than one would think. Just goes to show you that twins stick together, even in career paths.
February 18th, 2009 at 18:56
@Redrich: Absolutely. But the point is assumed that if we can win a 3-2 game by scoring plenty of goals, the chances are that they’re would be plenty of 3-0 or 4-0 wins as there is no way our defense could ever leak so bad as to give up two goals per game. But on the odd occasion that they do, it’s nice to know that our attack could make up those goals. These days I’m not sure if they could. For example, if Fulham were lucky enough to score two first half goals today, would we have the attacking power to fight through their ten man wall and score not only two tie them but a third to win? We haven’t been tested in that fashion yet.
February 18th, 2009 at 19:08
@Redrich: We’re talking about dumb and fairly ignorant people here. Most players from these regions barely have high school educations. Most of them come from poverty and learning how to read and write in their native tongue is challenge enough. Most eventually learn the language well enough over time but the problem is, how to keep them happy and content until that day comes. For example, will Anderson, Nani and the Twins stick around long enough with United, before they are proficient in English like Ronaldo is. Ronaldo has been with us almost six seasons. His English isn’t great but it gets him by and we can understand him. But when he is upset or in a melancholy mood and needs to vent his frustration or talk to somebody in authority, English is not the language he wants to use. That’s why CQ was so valuable to the team. The foreign lads don’t have that understanding father figure who calms them down and speaks to them in a way that helps them understand the big picture and their role better. Football is unlike any other big business. One would rarely hire somebody who spoke no English and have them come and work in an office of like minded individuals who speak English. But in football this is done all the time.
I’m just being honest and concerned about Fergie’s long term plans with these Portuguese speaking lads. They need some cultural security and with all fairness to Mike Phelan or anybody else in authority at the club, they aren’t getting any of that since Queiroz left. So without criticizing Phelan (which I’m not presently doing), somebody has to be hired that speaks their language and who has coaching and player managing experience.
I many not be a Phelan fan but I am also not going to be unfair to him in this regard. Fergie should have thought about these players when he hired his assistant. When a team makes a constructive effort to pursue certain types of players from a specific region, it makes sense to hire a coach who will not only translate for them, but who will be their connection to authority and an ear for their concerns. With that said, every foreign player should get a Rosetta Stone English software package for their computer and start learning the language immediately.
February 18th, 2009 at 19:15
@Grognard: Good points there, mate. Football is also one kind of team sport where a certain club will look to employ a Guatemaltese player if he’s deemed good enough by the scouts. They can’t dismiss the player and tell them to go learn english as talent in itself can be so rare – cue Palacios and Valencia.
February 18th, 2009 at 19:27
We want the team news!!!
We want the team news!!!
We want the team news!!!
February 18th, 2009 at 19:32
The match K:O at 8:00, so dont be expecting team news for another 45 minutes
February 18th, 2009 at 19:38
right, should i watch the match now, online? or should i wait, ignore this site for 2 hours, ignore bbc for 2 hours, and watch the extended highlights at 10?
February 18th, 2009 at 19:45
@Dan: Sorry what does K:O means – english not being my mother tongue and all…
February 18th, 2009 at 19:58
@NicoQB: Kick Off
February 18th, 2009 at 20:02
@Dan: Thanks for that… [feeling very stupid now]
February 18th, 2009 at 20:03
@NicoQB:
February 18th, 2009 at 20:14
Team:
VDS
O’Shea
Rio
Vidic
Evra
Ronaldo
Carrick
Scholes
Park
Tevez
Berbatov
February 18th, 2009 at 20:37
Seems like none of the usual suspects are going to post the team news… So here’s a first for me then:
Man Utd: Van der Sar, O’Shea, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Ronaldo, Carrick, Scholes, Park, Berbatov, Tevez Subs: Kuszczak, Rooney, Nani, Rafael Da Silva, Evans, Fletcher, Gibson
Fulham: Schwarzer, Pantsil, Hangeland, Hughes, Kallio, Baird, Gera, Murphy, Davies, Dempsey, Zamora Subs: Zuberbuhler, Nevland, Dacourt, Gray, Milsom, Brown, Smalling Referee: Andre Marriner (W Midlands)
February 18th, 2009 at 20:39
@NicoQB: Nevland? Erik Nevland??
February 18th, 2009 at 20:42
has anyone got any streams?
February 18th, 2009 at 20:42
Huh, I wonder what’s up with Giggs?
February 18th, 2009 at 20:45
Why is nani dropped for a game like this, i just dont see the need for park in a game like this against a fulham side that im sure will sit evry man behind the ball and never really threaten. Im a pretty big nani fan and i can understand in certain games he just doesnt cut the mustard, but he was excellent against derby and he needs a run of games to show that kind of performance on a regular basis, not get dropped every game. I could understand if he wasnt playing for some world class player who is better attacking wise than him, but park is and never will be half the player nani is. Call him annoying and inconsistent if you want, but nani sure as hell can produce that little bit of magic park never can. Just annoys me seeing him and the fletchers of this world getting consistently picked in these kind of games.
Glad to see scholes and carrick in the middle by the way. Hopefully we can stuff a couple past them but will probably be 2-0, tevez and ronaldo scoring. Oh well, lets make the 5 point gap by this evening.
February 18th, 2009 at 20:57
Any streams for the Fulham game?
February 18th, 2009 at 20:57
any links
February 18th, 2009 at 21:02
Not in english, but here’s one: http://www.freep2pfootball.co.uk/Game%202g.html
February 18th, 2009 at 21:05
@Matthew: maby cuz he picks up O’sheys slack? saf will probably make the switch sometime. or maby saf is scared of clent dempsy on the right
February 18th, 2009 at 21:14
scholesssssssssssssssssssss
February 18th, 2009 at 21:15
Love that boy. Love him.
February 18th, 2009 at 21:16
@t_reason: Did scholes score? what feed r u watchin it on mate? someone pls tell me something!!
February 18th, 2009 at 21:16
good link here
http://www.soccerdreamer.com/manchester-united-vs-fulham/
February 18th, 2009 at 21:23
@Gabriel: yes, trademark scholes..tho schwarzer helped it on
http://www.freep2pfootball.co.uk/Game%202g.html from Nick is working fine
February 18th, 2009 at 21:27
Fuckin’ UEFA cup!
Fuckin’ South African broadcasters! 
Fuckin’ slow Mauritian internet! 
February 18th, 2009 at 21:34
great, I turn off my stream to try and find an english one and I miss the 2nd goal
February 18th, 2009 at 21:59
Christ, sounds like I’m one lucky bastard as I have Setanta here in Canada and never miss a game. It’s tough when you have to count on the useless Internet to watch your games. My heart goes out to some of you.
Scholes has been magnificent but then again, so has the whole team. Ronaldo has shown energy and Berbatov has worked hard. My God we must have scored more off side goals than half the teams in the EPL have done legitimately. Berba has been unlucky or he would have had four goals in the first half. Tevez needs to pick up his game a bit and Park needs to get better positioning when he makes passes near the box and when he distributes them. Quite often balls are behind him or he pass behind others because he does not work angles as well as he should. Carrick is playing well but he really does tend to fall back and hide when he plays next to Scholes. Nani should have started on the left side today. Fulham have shown no interest to attack so I see no point playing the more defensive minded Park. Nani would give us more options from both sides.
O’Shea has played well enough but I still would have started Rafael or Neville over him and what about Wes Brown? Is Brown injured again or what? There should never be a need to play O’Shea at RB unless it’s as a sub late in a game.
Hopefully we will come out in the second half with the mentality to kill Fulham off and go for that 3rd goal. I hope we do not let them back in the match by taking the pedal of the medal and falling back. I want to see this team have the eye of the tiger and a killer instinct.
February 18th, 2009 at 22:01
scholes was out of this world in the first half
February 18th, 2009 at 22:07
@Grognard: Yeah, that’s the second United match in a week I can’t watch because of problems on the broadcaster’s side.
Now, from past experience I predict that United are going to switch off for the second half. I’d loved to be proved wrong!
February 18th, 2009 at 22:18
Just as I predicted, the boys have come out flat in the second half and have lost a bit of their fire and desire. Time to take Tevez off and bring Rooney on.
February 18th, 2009 at 22:19
OK, so why take Berba off when Tevez has been the one who was invisible? I guess it’s to rest him for the weekend.
February 18th, 2009 at 22:21
What a return for the Electric Roonaroooooooooo! WOW! Snaaaaaaaaaared!
February 18th, 2009 at 22:22
WAYNE ROONEY
how I missed you
February 18th, 2009 at 22:23
@Grognard: nice…assist
by Park huh?
February 18th, 2009 at 22:24
1 touch, 1 goal
February 18th, 2009 at 22:25
How good was VDS’s smile there…
February 18th, 2009 at 22:45
i dont get it , is park really that unlucky to not get a goal
February 18th, 2009 at 22:59
@Liam: Nah, it was a missed shot that Rooney was lucky enough to get on the end of.
February 18th, 2009 at 23:10
I think SAF took off Berbatov instead of Tevez two reasons.
1. To rest Berbatov.
2. To give Tevez the chance to get through this lean spell, you can only score and regain your confidence through games and time on the park.
Sadly it didn’t work out and Tevez was pretty invisible for the majority of the game.
Great to see Rooney back, i think keeping him back until he was 100% instead of rushing him back was most definitely the correct decision. We won all the games he was out injured for and now that he’s back we’re prepared for the Champions League. Bring on Inter!
February 18th, 2009 at 23:13
@Grognard: I’m sure he was just faking the shot to put off the defense. His vision is second to none.
February 18th, 2009 at 23:13
Just like to point out that the Reserves came back from 4-1 down to beat Wigan Reserves 5-4.
http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid={B4CEE8FA-9A47-47BC-B069-3F7A2F35DB70}&newsid=6627398
February 18th, 2009 at 23:27
Well if that isn’t a clear enough indication to the world who the very best team on the planet is, then I must be smoking something illegal. United played with Fulham tonight. Just played with them like they were children. At no time did I ever feel like our defensive streak was ever in jeopardy. In fact, I’m almost certain that when we finally give up a goal, it will be due to a penalty decision due to an accidental hand ball. In the past few games it almost seems that teams are counting on that for their chance at a goal.
RATINGS:
EVDS – 7/10 I’m getting tired of saying this but does this guy even have to dress? Why don’t we just forget about goal and dress an extra attacker?
O’SHEA – 7.5/10 Played well and had a real attacking spirit. Had a major hand in Berba’s goal and was pretty solid defensively also.
RIO – 7/10 At times he looked a step slow but his ability to recover was great and he never really made a wrong move. He has been shirt pulling a little too much of late for my liking and one of these days he’s going to get called for it.
VIDIC – 8/10 As solid as always and always in great position to nullify any chance of an attack. Good solid play and great positioning all game. Nice attacks on corners and was unlucky not to do better having got his head to two or three balls.
EVRA – 7.5/10 Nice runs and overlaps but his close ball control kind of evaded him today. He;s still trying to find his fitness after a layoff and he was skinned a few times by Paintsil. Still, we are so much more explosive with him out there.
PARK – 7/10 Works so hard it’s kind of hard to get mad at him when he overruns a ball or makes a poor pass. Set up Rooney beautifully though and had some great runs that created free kicks. Needs to grow some feet though as he still misses to many balls because he lacks the leg reach to get to balls.
SCHOLES – 10/10 As the commentator said, the man put on a master class at the position. Showed initiative, purpose and attacking ambition in his play. When he is playing well, you see very few back passes. His distribution was incredible and I do not recall him missing on one pass in the entire game. Truly an exceptional achievement. When he is properly rested and fresh, he certainly is capable of putting in a performance like this. Nice to see his goal and he actually hit a few low scorchers today which was nice to see. Reminiscent of the old Scholes. Message was clear, the Ginger Ninja is far from finished. This was a perfect performance.
CARRICK – 7/10 Quiet but very steady game. Never got a thing wrong and defended well, especially in our box. Needs to work on his corner kicks better as they lack the pace to threaten. He really does tend to fall back more and hide when he is partnered up with Scholes. I would have liked to have seen a few more long range through balls.
RONALDO – 6.5/10 Just wasn’t with it today. Showed some great energy and cut inside a number of times but always his shots are either blocked or miss hit. I am very concerned over the numerous miss hit balls he has offered us this season. Last year his connection with the ball was sublime and very accurate. This year he seems to be hitting a beach ball that has a mind of it’s own. Is it the ball or is there something wrong with his mechanics or head? I don’t know but I am really concerned.
BERBATOV – 8/10 Worked really hard and made a lot of great plays. Scored a goal but should have had three or four based on his chances. Really looks more and more comfortable with his role and his confidence seems very high. Did a decent job of tracking back too.
TEVEZ – 6/10 A poor game by Carlito’s standards. Had a goal disallowed and set up Bebra for what should have been a goal but other than that, was completely invisible. His dribbling was poor and most of his passes were terrible. Just one of those games where he wasn’t involved or on his game. Nothing to be concerned about.
ROONEY – 8/10 Showed energy and passion out there and made a great entrance scoring on his first touch on a ball that was a harder to control than it may have looked due to it’s pace. Tracked back and looked like he was in good fitness despite the layoff. Glad to see him back.
EVANS – 7/10 Played out of position when he came in but never got a thing wrong and showed some attacking ambition.
GIBSON – Not enough time to rate but he did have a great crack at goal from 25 yards out and hit it well but just wide.
FERGIE – 9/10 Once again he got things right and really knows at times how to fill out a squad and give players a rest accordingly. I think his decision to take Berba off early was smart as he well be fresher for the weekend. Still needs to rest Ronaldo more. Amazingly keeps this bunch motivated and focused. He’s da Man.
February 18th, 2009 at 23:29
@Liam: I was joking mate. It wasn’t a shot or a fake. He meant the pass 100% but it was a little too hard. Fortunately Rooney got to it and hit it well enough to get it in. It was a great play but Park needs to learn to finesse a ball once in a while. Nice goal anyway and he deserves credit for it.
February 18th, 2009 at 23:31
@Grognard: Just got back from the game and do my eyes fail me the over rated Scholes a 10!!!
February 18th, 2009 at 23:45
i thought Ronaldo started off pretty well but faded in the 2nd half…ii seems Fergie likes Gibson but don’t know why really…Tevez’s touch has been awful off late and with Rooney back in contention once again…i feel for him…sincerely hope Brown gets fit soon..despite O’Shea having a blinder of a game at RB..
February 18th, 2009 at 23:46
who every says park meant that is deluding them selves. He didnt have a clue where rooney, or even the goal was, he shot, head down, and it went horribly wide. Luckily enough for him, wayne was there to spare his blushes.
February 19th, 2009 at 0:00
@Grognard: nice one Grog! listened to it on radio, not quite the same as watchin it, so thanks for the ratings! Great
to see a 3-0, are we 5 pts ahead? To the rest, catch us if you can! Oh yeah, whatever happened to the Roons settling in period after injury?
February 19th, 2009 at 0:41
Hurray lads!!!
Im posting from Manchester, quality display by the lads. Ill get back with a better review from my position tomorrow, when Im back in Norway. Scholes was quality, but I didnt see much of his goal from my seat. This was a masterful performance, and Im delighted we are leading by 5 points. Hopefully we can beat Rovers on Saturday and Shitty can hold the Scousers to a draw. I cant possibly expect Shitty to win at Anfield! 3-0 win was great for us, as it adds to our goal difference too. Im fully confident we will go on to win the league now, because we seem to control every match as if we were deciding what happens in real life. Like I said I will get back with more tomorrow, but I shall end with saying that I LOVE MANCHESTER!!! 
February 19th, 2009 at 0:44
Ronaldo was utterly shite today! Walked into some stupid offsides, had some shots that nearly hit me in the head(literally shaved my goregous head!) and was sulking all game. This must have been possibly the worst performance from Ronny this season, and I really hope he improaves. He seemed afraid to skin Pantsil, even though one nutmeg was brilliant. Gave the Fulham fans some stick for that…
February 19th, 2009 at 0:48
@Stephen: You read correctly mate. What should shock you more is if he got anything less than ten for that performance. I still stand by my feelings overall on Scholes. A great player but not one of my favorites and not as good as he has been made out to be. But when he is good, I will be more than man enough to give him credit for that, just as I am more than man enough to let him have it when he stinks out the joint. You can accuse me of a lot and I know I am controversial, but one thing I am is fair. I’m fair to every player except Ben Foster. Don’t ask me why, that boy just rubs me the wrong way. I may not like Park either but I am at least fair towards him when he plays well.
February 19th, 2009 at 2:01
@Grognard: As was I, I think he was caught in 2 minds, he was about to shoot and then out of the corner of his eye saw Rooney and ended up redirecting his shot which led to him hitting it harder as well. Still it doesn’t matter how they get there as long as it hits the net
February 19th, 2009 at 4:12
Bottle of wine, top of the table, enjoying the circus below.
February 19th, 2009 at 4:50
@Grognard: Good ratings, my man. Especially pleased by the 10 out of 10 for Scholes, an honest assessment of a man who didn’t put a single foot wrong!!
The 3-0 result was pleasing and will probably look like a solid beating when we look back in a couple of months. However I don’t think we really never got out of 2nd gear and this could have, should have, been a slaughter of the lambs!!
February 19th, 2009 at 5:19
@Nick: Berbatov was rested for Blackburn, starting along side Rooney. Berbatov on the bench at Inter, coming on, if we need a goal. Tevez could be better on the road in the CL, running and fighting for any chance coming his way.
My humble view, anyway!!
February 19th, 2009 at 5:36
@Liam: “Still it doesn’t matter how they get there as long as it hits the net”. Amen brother
February 19th, 2009 at 5:49
@phoenix red: VERY NICE! haha internet is a wonderful thing eh? Wonder when Man Utd will feature on that list with our own twins.
@Grognard: Mighty high praise coming from you. 10/10 is very apt though, he didnt even get his tackles an inch off during the match! even the commentators were bemused by his unusual good sense of timing. This shot must be chalked up to all the times he tries to hit his teammates with the ball when they go to pee on the side of the field during training.
Oh, and i had heard from the commentators pre-match report that Neville and Brown had both been ruled out from the match due to minor injuries. Nothing to worry about, today’s Manutd.com interviewed fergie about todays win also stated that players would be rested if they get even small injuries so as not to make it worse. reckon thats that case with brown. Rafael was rested for the next game as he is probably the only recongised fullback with oshea picking up a knock.
February 19th, 2009 at 6:05
@Redrich: That unfortunately seems to be the nature of this team. To stay in second gear and just not deliver that sadistic and killing blow. Inferior teams like Liverpool and Chelsea may not have what we do but when they have a team so thoroughly demoralized, they tend to run up the score to 5 or 6. We seem very content and satisfied once we get up 2-0 on teams. Perhaps it saves their energy and doesn’t expose them to injury by playing this way.
February 19th, 2009 at 7:03
@Grognard: good ratings but rooney 8,berba 8,but ronaldo 6.5?i think its a bit harsh,the expectation from him is so high,its unrealistic,you know.
February 19th, 2009 at 9:58
I guess it’s just me, but I actually thought Ronnie was great in the first half, looked like a real winger. Skinned his man multiple times and got some decent crosses in. Didn’t he also cross in for Park to ‘pass’ to Rooney for the goal? His shooting was rubbish, but crossing and wing play were great.
That Scholes performance is just beyond words. He was flawless. If he can do that, without any pace and little stamina, then I see no reason he can’t make 45 minute/30 minute cameos for another year or two. His cross field passes are terrifyingly precise, with no backlift, almost like a shot. It’s disturbing. All we can hope is that Carrick/Gibson/Ando/Fletcher try and learn a 1/10th of that…
February 19th, 2009 at 10:43
it seems gibson has promoted himself to the first team! I think he should be a box to box midfielder, when hes attacking he reminds me a little of gerrard, and when hes defending, he reminds me a little of hargreaves(before he came to united).
To be honest, gibson hasnt played any worst the darren ferguson, i mean fletcher
, and if anything, better.
February 19th, 2009 at 13:08
when the “squeaky bum time” comes, SAF `ll have rested players from the first 11, and perfect alibi for bench players cozz they played wonderful in very important part of the season…and are main reason why we are “1″ in the EPL…After B`burn game evra, VDS, Carrick, rio-vidic, ronaldo and rooney will step on trying to make that final push CC, EPL and CL….All in all….very good season for bench players(youth + old guard)
February 19th, 2009 at 14:02
Wow. Just finished watching the game. Scholes was perfect. Barely broke a sweat but his distribution was just perfect and yeah hardly any backpasses. And wow that goal. OK the keeper screwed up but to take it first time from a corner and get so much pace and power on it I always saw it going in.
Tevez was shit. OK he was having an off game but his passing was almost as bad as O’Shea’s and that is saying something. To be honest this is always his weakness and one of the reasons why he is not worth 30 million.
Ronaldo should really stop taking free kicks. He’ll score a couple of goals from free kicks a season but the rest of the time he is just wasting possession. It is also affecting his confidence. However apart from the free kicks I thought he was very good showing he can play as a traditional winger when he wants to, skinning his man, getting some good crosses in and being a constant threat.
I loved to see Rooney back. He seemed quite sharp and the goal will help his confidence. Looks like we’ll have him for the Inter games which will help us immeasurably.
Dan I love your enthusiasm about Gibson but one good game against Derby, a championship team, and a decent cameo against a Fulham side who’d basically given up doesn’t make him a first team player. Time is on his side and I think over the next season or two he could overtake Fletcher in the pecking order and play an important squad role but that doesn’t change the fact we need a quality midfielder to play alongside Carrick and it ain’t Gibson (or Fletcher).
Scholes and Giggs on their day are miles ahead of all our central midfielders, even Carrick. But while it is great to see them roll back the years, it doesn’t disguise the fact that many of the games they’ve played they’ve looked off the pace and past it.
Giggs has kept this up for quite a few games now and based on that Id start him against Inter (especially as he is better defensively than Scholes). But I do not think we can start with both Scholes and Giggs unless we go for a three man central midfield playing a 4-3-3 like we did something last season and I think that could get found out against an Inter midfield brimming with power and muscle.
Today we really turned on the style and after all those lean 1-0 wins it was a joy to watch. We get better each week. Our defense has been solid ever since we got back from the World Club Cup, now it looks like our attack is finally starting to blend and our movement, passing and pace is excellent. A million miles away from the slow, sluggish play of the start of the season.
My only question is why does it always take us till the second half of the season to get into top gear? If we’d hit the ground running from the start of the season we’d be running away with the title.
February 19th, 2009 at 14:08
Oh yeah and a special mention for Park Ji-Sung. OK he is the unluckiest player in the league and every time he gets a shot on goal a defender or goalkeeper produces an improbable block. Yes he goes over at the slightest touch. But he has played extremely well this season and really flourishing with regular games. We have enough flair players and creative players, and he really balaces our team with his incredible stamina, his tracking back, his intelligent positioning and link play.
February 19th, 2009 at 14:36
@ Colver – It’s interesting isn’t it – we seemed as though we could keep passing the ball forever without losing posession, except when it went to O’Shea or Tevez. And only one of them has a £30m price tag.
February 19th, 2009 at 15:40
@colver: err mate, i said nothing about him starting along side carrick, fact is he got promoted to the first team squad long before the derby game, hes in fergies good books!
I think you thought that i meant he has promoted himself into the first team, as in starting line up, he hasnt, hes been promoted to the first team squad.
February 19th, 2009 at 16:59
Sorry Dan, you are right I misintrepeted you. Definitely Id agree he is no longer a fringe player and is slowly being integrated into the first team squad.
It is interesting to look at Fergies development policies. Cup games mean nothing but if he gives a youngster game time even as a substitute in an EPL game that is a big deal!
February 19th, 2009 at 18:15
@sunny: Do you read my rating all the time when I post them? I think not because you would know that in the past I have always given Ronaldo higher marks than he sometimes deserves. Yesterday I decided to give him what he deserved. I love Ronaldo and I am one of the few voices that sticks up for him every day against a lot of abuse. But lets face it, he hasn’t played anywhere near his best this season and it’s not just the lack of goals. His overall play, his contact of the ball, the lack of a third gear and extra move to skin a defender has been missing. Yesterday he was an 8 in the first half but a 4 in the second. His finishing was off and his shooting was just terrible. His passing into the box from a wide position was also terrible. So trust me, if I give Ronny a low mark, he deserves it because I generally give him a point or two higher than he deserves. I like him that much.
Don’t get me wrong though, I don’t mind the criticism or being called harsh. That is your absolute right to disagree with me. I just felt I needed to explain to you where I was coming from. I mean I was also poked fun at for giving Scholes a 10/10 because many here think that I am anti-Scholes and that I hate him. Again, not true. How could I hate any United player. He’s not one of my favorites true, but he is far from an enemy of my state like a John Terry, Patrick Vieira, Thierry Henry, Didier Drogba and Rafa Benitez. After two years of writing on this blog you would think that I would have established some street credit and a reputation fro being controversial but also fair. Scholes may not be a fave of mine where Ronaldo is, but when they play well or poor, they will get what they deserve from me. I feel I’ve got a good eye and am a good judge of play, but like all of us, my ratings are just subjective and my opinion. Certainly not canon…….although I wish they were.
February 19th, 2009 at 18:20
@Beachryan: You are right about Ronny. He had a very good first half but he really tailed off in the second half. But then so did the team. They lost their intensity and slipped down one gear. For Ronnie I attribute it to two things. Fatigue and frustration. He clearly needs to be rested and he also was getting frustrated with his own misses as well as the far linesman’s off side calls. Ronny needs to grow up. He always gets bent out of shape when a ref doesn’t call a foul or when he is called offside. Right or wrong, the call stands and he needs to learn to live with it. I was a pretty emotional player when I played sports back in my day and I can attest tot the fact that bitching to the ref or just bitching to yourself for missing a shot does play on your mind and it can harm your focus and desire. Either way, he was a 6.5/10 for me if one takes the full game into account.
February 19th, 2009 at 18:22
@Dan: Darren Ferguson!
You don’t think ahh????? Dan you crack me up mate. 
February 19th, 2009 at 18:29
@colver: Park offers a great balance and a lot of intangibles that others don’t. I agree with you there. But he is not a very skilled player and luck comes to those who earn it with their abilities. Park has very little offensive talent so I have to ask myself why he started a game at home against a park the bus team like Fulham? If we had a Nani or even Giggs on the left side we would have scored 5 or 6 because less attention would have been spent on Ronaldo. Nani gives us way more options offensively than park but yes Park does offer great work ethic and desire. And occasionally his terribly inaccurate shots will land at the feet of one of our players like Rooney and end up looking like a great assist.
I think Park has great value against the bigger clubs who have a wide player who can attack and cause problems. I think Park will be a perfect player to put up against Leo Messi should we play Barca in the CL. He is a pest and a hard worker and if anybody can contain or keep Messi to just human output, Park is the man. But please, do not tell me he is the man who we should be putting out there against poor teams because he does hamper our offensive output quite a bit. Even though his work ethic and desire occasionally makes things happen. He’s a valuable asset but as a role player and nothing more.
February 19th, 2009 at 18:49
@Beachryan: Tevez, to me, seems to have lost his first touch!! The ball seems to bounce off him like a pinball bumper. I don’t know if he’s so intent in getting into scoring position that he forgets the basics, or what? But that 30mil tag does not seem realistic anymore.
February 19th, 2009 at 19:25
come on tuesday i cant wait….
February 19th, 2009 at 20:10
@Redrich: This happens to players who are not relaxed and who feel a lot of pressure to perform. They try too hard and the tension just doesn’t allow the muscles in the body to relax enough so that their first touch and their passes etc come more naturally. As much as I love Tevez, I often wonder if we will ever see the player South America was so raving about five years ago. His talent and control of the ball was supposed to have been sublime and that he would literally go through a whole team like Messi and score. As he has progressed in his career he has found the competition harder but I think it has more to do with how he handles the pressure. Playing for a team as great and as high profile as United has got to add a lot of pressure to any player. And I think his situation this year has just added that little bit more doubt and hesitation in his game as well as the added tension.
February 19th, 2009 at 20:41
Tevez I think would be better suited for Spain or Italy in a team where he could be the star and play every game. Being demoted to third striker has obviously shot his confidence and his touch has completely disappeared and he has been goal shy and done little in terms of assists.
Grognard as well as the big games I think Park has also been very useful in helping out Rafael on the right, taking some of the defensive pressure off the lad and letting him bomb forward without worrying too much about getting caught out.
February 19th, 2009 at 21:16
“Tevez I think would be better suited for Spain or Italy in a team where he could be the star and play every game”
That is just complete rubbish, who would he sign for abroad and play week in week out? Barca, Real, Inter? Football is about a squad and every member has a part to play, football isn’t about who starts every week it is about mixing your squad keeping players fresh.
February 19th, 2009 at 22:41
@Grognard: i seriously doubt that even Messi will exhibit the same kind of control he has in la liga here in the EPL..i don’t think i need to explain why…all the same what people seem to forget so easily is that even with Carlitos being the 3rd striker, he easily gets around 30 to 40 games per season mainly due to the number of injuries we sustain in a regular season..we always have couple out for the full season and a couple who play half of it..Rooney missed a good chunk of last season and he did this season as well but we are stronger this year because we didn’t have to striker shortage like last season mostly because Tevez is here..we spend around 30 million during a regular transfer window annually and if we can keep Tevez all the more better for us..Campbell can’t seem to keep a place with Spurs even when he has done reasonably well and Welbeck is at least a year or two from being regular starter or even maybe never…Tevez is world class no doubt proven goal scorer in the EPL..which is rare..Liverpool only has Torres…Arsenal has van Persie..maybe Adebayor…Chelsea has Anelka and Drogba…our edge has been our assembled cast of attacking football over the last couple of seasons…who better go for otherwise?
February 19th, 2009 at 23:07
@Stephen: Spoken like a true bench warmer.
Seriously mate, do you believe that? Players have egos and the better they are the bigger the egos. There are plenty of teams in Spain where Tevez could go and star for. Spain does not consist of only Madrid and Barcelona. For example, Valencia is going to be very hard pressed to hold onto David Villa. Do you not think that a Carlos Tevez would be a decent replacement for them? How about Atletico if Aguero leaves or even some of the smaller clubs like Deportivo or Mallorca?
If I was a good player and good enough to start on most teams, I’d say to Hell with the team concept and sacrifice and I’d demand a move to a team that would appreciate me, play me and that would have a chance at success with me in the lineup. We all can’t be champions of Europe so many would be very content to sacrifice that silverware for a steady job starting for a team and becoming a club favorite. And a star player should not have to become a sacrificial lamb for the good of his team. Carlito chose football because he loved the game, not the bench. Fuck the squad. That’s easy to say if you are one of the few great teams in the world, but most teams aren’t and their squad’s are not laced with world class players sitting on the bench. Carlos Tevez is too good a player to be sitting on anyone’s bench. I would not blame him one bit if he went signed for a team that ensured him a starting position. And to hell with being part of a squad. That’s code for you aren’t good enough to start.
February 19th, 2009 at 23:14
@RMJ: 30 or 40 games per season sounds nice but when 20 to 25 of those games constitute a 15 to 20 minute sprint and cameo sessions, it’s really more like he’s played about 20 games total. When you come in to a game in the 70th minute you hardly have the time to develop a sweat yet alone make any kind of impact. Tevez has a significant drop in minutes played. Who cares how many games he’s featured in? It’s the minutes played that is important and in that category, he has a right to feel pissed off and betrayed. He’s great to have as far as depth goes but that is also money that would be foolishly spent based on the minutes he has given us. Nope, next year I see Campbell and Welbeck making up those minutes and Carlito doing the Tango somewhere in Spain.
February 19th, 2009 at 23:45
@colver: no need to apologise mate, it was my fault for not being clear enough
@Grognard:
February 19th, 2009 at 23:52
thte way i see it, fergies job will be a lot easier without tevez! He would have is starting pair in rooney and berba(plus ronaldo and giggs!), then all those minutes that tevez plays off the bench will be welbecks/campbells.
In an ideal world, we will put a bid in for the kun(or any other young prospect thats already accomplished *cough*benzema*cough*) with campbell going the other way. Nothing against campbell, if it wernt for berba i would keep him, but campbells a player that needs a run off games to find form, an he does find his form, but at united, he wont get a run off games with rooney, berba and quite possibly welbeck infront of him.
Bloody hell im turning into grognard! i cant remember the last time i made a comment like this!
Only kidding
February 20th, 2009 at 0:10
@Dan: That’s funny Dan because my campaign to get Campbell brought back and partnered with Welbeck as our #3 and #4 strikers makes me feel like I’m turning into Dan.
February 20th, 2009 at 0:34
Well you can understand why Tevez feels rejected. He plays 2/3 of our games in a season when we win the Premier League and the Champions Cup…..then rather than sign him permanently we shell out 30 million on Berbatov who immediately starts despite Tevez having the pre-season of his life.
Berbatov starts slowly but Fergie is patient and plays Berbatov every game and Tevez gets these insulting 15 minute cameos. Then after a few months Berbatov settles and gets better and better to the point where he is undroppable, while Tevez is forced to play with a bunch of kids in the Carling cup and even when he scores four goals still doesn’t get to start in the Premier League.
Then Rooney gets injured and Tevez finally starts but doesn’t have the same chemistry with Berbatov he enjoyed with Rooney and is short of match practice and form and his touch just isn’t there.
Meanwhile Fergie stalls again on signing Tevez up permanently and Tevez is uncertain about his future.
Personally if I was Tevez Id walk just like Rossi did. He’s been mistreated and not been shown the respect he deserves. Fergie made no attempt to rotate except when forced to by injuries and clearly underlined Tevez’s second class status in the squad.
February 20th, 2009 at 4:12
look alive people
February 20th, 2009 at 4:13
@colver:Tevez feels rejected because he is being rejected!! Without an immediate improvement in his performances I just can’t see him staying, realistically. His contributions this year are difficult to quantify because he’s not doing what he did last season – score the big goal. Without trying to condemn him totally, I just feel that that the price tag is holding him back in advancing to the stability he seems to crave.
His work ethic is admirable and because of that I can see how he appeals to his fans, but with the quick flow nature of our attack, his skills, or shall we say, style, doesn’t seem to fit and now he doesn’t seem to be able to keep up with it all!!
February 20th, 2009 at 4:19
The bottom line with Tevez is is he’s not presently good enough to start for United but he could start for a lot of good teams out there. His price tag however is way to high for a striker that is not a prolific goal scorer. So whether we like it or not, he’s probably on his way because I cannot see United spending that kind of money for a player to sit on the bench when a Welbeck is probably more than capable of scoring the same number of goals given the same amount of time on the pitch.
February 20th, 2009 at 4:23
@Grognard: You’re dreaming in this respect man! The only reason that two Rookies will be in the strike force will be if SAF can’t spend any money this off season. Well, wait, that’s not that unbelievable any more is it!!
February 20th, 2009 at 4:24
I laugh when some call the EPL the best league in the world and then I watch total minnows like Shaktar Donetsk and FC Copenhagen have their way with Man Shitty and Spurs today. Lets face it, if you take away the real big money teams that are established and have built their squads over time, the league is crap. So lets not have any more people putting down the La Liga or even Serie A because their middle of the road teams seem to do a lot better in the UEFA Cup than English clubs. The EPL is nothing without Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool.
February 20th, 2009 at 4:58
http://www.goal.com/en/news/9/england/2009/02/20/1118189/cocky-welbeck-banished-to-manchester-united-reserves
should have banished ronaldo a longtime ago then….
February 20th, 2009 at 5:12
@Grognard: I’m not sure it is regarded as the “best” league in the world. It certainly is the most successful if you quantify the high profile it enjoys along with it’s commercial success with TV contracts world wide.
The top teams and the top players are probably better off in the PL than any where else but as you move on down the scale, it becomes a beacon of the stark reality that faces most pro teams trying to compete against all odds.
The problem with the PL is that nobody has ever confronted the idea of “parity”. The notion of all teams playing on an even playing field is just not Cricket!! Spending caps and squad limitations are just an alien idea to the way it’s always been.
The top four, as it’s been dubbed, are really an obscene exercise in elitism with the other teams either trying to claw their way into contention or seething at the fact that they cannot!!
February 20th, 2009 at 5:19
@Grognard: Oh, and by the way, please do not call me an elitist!!
February 20th, 2009 at 6:33
So says The Sun …
ALEX FERGUSON dumped teen ace Danny Welbeck into the reserves for being too cocky.
The Manchester United boss was incensed by the striker’s Eric Cantona-style goal celebration in Sunday’s FA Cup win over Derby.
And instead of picking him for Wednesday’s clash with Fulham, Fergie decided to knock the 18-year-old down a peg or two by dropping him to the stiffs for their trip to Wigan.
A United source revealed: “Alex was very angry about the way Welbeck celebrated his goal at Derby. He felt there was a touch of arrogance about it.
“Danny is just a kid and Alex does not like the thought of him getting too big for his boots.
“That is a lesson plenty of players have learned over the years at Old Trafford.”
Welbeck is rated as a star of the future by Fergie. He came off the bench against Derby to complete the scoring in United’s 4-1 win with a brilliant first-time curling shot into the far corner.
That led to his big-headed celebration, with his chest puffed out, reminiscent of French United legend Cantona.
At least he did not sulk at being forced to play for the reserves.
He scored twice against the Latics’ second team as United came from 4-1 down to win 5-4.
That positive reaction may well earn him a recall to the first-team squad when United take on Blackburn tomorrow.
February 20th, 2009 at 8:05
@Redrich: It really is amazing in world football how this elitism as you put it is constantly allowed to wield it’s ugly fist. In Germany it’s Bayern Munich every bloody year. In France it’s Lyon In Italy its a rotation between the two Milan’s and Juventus, in Spain it’s always been a two horse race between Real Madrid and Barcelona, in Holland it has always been PSV and Ajax and the most ridiculous of all has always been Scotland where there has been a two team league for a century now and then another ten teams below them. Celtic, Rangers, Rangers, Celtic etc etc. What amazes me is how this is not only tolerated by the league authorities but how nothing is ever done or introduced to bring about reform or change. Above all, why the other teams do not make a greater stink about the status quo.
This kind of nonsense was tolerated in North America for a time but then the 80’s came and the NFL brought parity into play. Then the NHL did the same and the NBA followed. Only Major League Baseball refuses to bring about parity by forcing extreme measures and salary caps to make the playing field truly level. Yet amazingly, baseball still has teams from the middle of the pack financially occasionally win the World Series. Money does not guarantee success in that sport. The New York Yankees will have a payroll this year that will be an incredible 250 million dollars. The defending World Champions payroll is slightly more than half that. But the nature of the game and it’s statisitical complexity makes it difficult to dominate it like in soccer. Soccer is really a very simple game at it’s core unlike baseball which depends too much on individual players physical and emotional peaks and valleys. It’s team game played by individuals whereas soccer is the ultimate team game that allows great players to blend together with much more ease and guaranteed success.
World football needs to copy the Americans and integrate a salary cap system and other measures that will bring about a just and fair parity. That will allow teams that utilize their resources within the limitations best to succeed. I used to be a believer that the prestige of a league was dependent on “dynasty” teams. Teams like Manchester United, Arsenal, Liverpool are dynasty teams because of their long records of success. The Montreal Canadiens, the Dallas Cowboys, Pittsburgh Steelers, Boston Celtics, LA Lakers, NY Yankees and LA Dodgers are dynasty teams with great historic prestige. It’s important that teams like that are consistently good for the overall reputation of a league. Having a team who finished last one year and champions the next may sound romantic but all it does is bring down the overall quality and prestige of the league. And if this kind of thing happens regularly or if you have new champion every year, that may seem democratic and fair, but it is not always seen as offering a quality product. But the flip side to that coin is having Celtic and Rangers win every fucking year. That my friends is a bloody joke and it should not be tolerated. Nor should it be tolerated every year that England be known as the league with the “big four”. Yes I like dynasties byut I don’t like monopolies. And that is what we have in football. MONOPOLIES. A few teams having all the spoils. It’s rubbish and it’s laughable. After all, what is the purpose of having a league and a season when the champions are a foregone conclusion. Only in soccer is finishing 17th in a 20 team league equivalent to winning a championship. Preventing relegation has become a form of championship run for bottom feeders. Some think that’s great, I think it;s pathetic. LOWERED EXPECTATIONS is nothing to be proud of. Football is a mess and it’s going to take Herculean effort to save this ship from sinking in these difficult economic times. I mean how much crap, unfairness and insults can people take before they say enough?
February 20th, 2009 at 8:06
@Redrich: Why would I call you an elitist?
February 20th, 2009 at 8:10
@jos: Jeez I never any of that in his celebration. In fact I liked that it was so subdued and reminded me of old school players who acted like scoring a goal was second nature. It has gotten to the point that ever y goal has some kind of ass clown celebration after it that when somebody doesn’t really celebrate he is seen as cocky and elitist. JEEZ WHAT A JOKE. Fergie needs to lighten up and fine Tevez every time he takes out the baby soother and acts like an idiot. Not penalize an 18 year old boy for acting subdued but confident.
February 20th, 2009 at 8:47
@Grognard: Well, I spend most of my spare time in a form of devotion to an elite team. I saw an irony here, that’s all!
February 20th, 2009 at 9:08
@Redrich: I wouldn’t call that being elitist. I’d call that having good taste.
February 20th, 2009 at 9:56
So reports today have Joorchabian saying United wouldn’t play ball, and Tevez now needs to look elsewhere. Am torn, as I feel most of us are.
Bottom line for me is that we win and play very well when Tevez is in the squad. It is impossible to tell how much of this is because of him, and how much in spite. There’s no doubting Campbell and Welbeck have shown glimpses of talent, but that’s all they’ve been. They are not at Carlito’s level, and he’s not that much older than them. I also think the contract stuff has dulled his performances on the pitch.
The big difference between him and other players Fergie has given the hard treatment to in the past is that he has this weird, ‘you don’t own me’ situation. Whereas everyone else would just have to get their head down, work hard in training and bust a gut to get better, Tevez will always have this get out of jail card in his back pocket. If we signed him up, he’d lose this, and I think become the better for it.
I still say (and maybe this has happened) we offer him £15m, for a 4 year deal, at the end of which he can walk away. It might be £5m less than what htey want, but he can stay in his settled life, with friends and the squad he’s comfortable with, and surely that’s worht something.
Problem is Kia. That’s it.
February 20th, 2009 at 10:26
@Grognard: I agree matey but neither of those teams could afford him.
Only time will tell if he signs, but if we have him on loan until the summer, then why pay the money now, surely the money is better in our account than Joorabchian’s, I love Carlos and hope he stays but not at all costs.
February 20th, 2009 at 11:26
@Grognard:
February 20th, 2009 at 11:32
Anyone else think we’re going to conceed tomorrow? Probably a good thing (has to happen eventually) and I really see Blackburn doing it. I think they’ll have a real go, and they’re not a bad side, with good attacking options. I hope we’ll still win, but just thinking of the trouble we had last year (Tevez last minute equaliser) has me fearing for us here. Would be a massive boost to Liverpool if we drop points before the play
!
February 20th, 2009 at 11:33
Bull fucking shit! when welbeck celebrated his goal, i didnt see arrogance, i saw something that i havent seen from our english youth in a long, long while, confidence! confidence in his own ability. Its no secret, that danny is a star in the making, if we were to sell him now i would demand £10million based upon his potential alone. So why is fergie bringing him down like this? when you have the “1st, 2nd and 3rd best player in the world” in your squad should he not have been put in the reserves as well?
SAF needs to get some of his hardness back, and stop pussy footing around his foreign players and start being fair.
February 20th, 2009 at 11:35
@Beachryan: Thats what chelsea were saying back in 2004, 4 years later, englands most wanted came to the bridge.
February 20th, 2009 at 11:44
@Dan: Isn’t Ronaldo a little arrogant?
February 20th, 2009 at 11:46
@Beachryan: To be honest mate I wasn’t even born the last time we conceded a goal, my Grandfather tells me it was against a small team from London, but they are long gone now.
February 20th, 2009 at 16:04
@Beachryan: Liverpool play Sunday mate.
February 20th, 2009 at 16:28
@Grognard: spurs 3rd string team mind…
February 20th, 2009 at 16:39
@Stephen: lol, nice one
February 20th, 2009 at 17:47
bout f-ing time… what the hell was he waiting for?
http://www.tribalfootball.com/man-utds-rooney-reveals-new-finishing-training-228545
February 20th, 2009 at 17:51
I dont belive that Welbeck story for a second, truth is he wouldnt have gotten a game now that Rooney is back. It better to have the boy playing 90 minutes with the reserves then just practicing with the first team(which Im sure he is still doing). this is just a case of the typical UK media making up headlines cause people are sick of hearing about beckham.
February 20th, 2009 at 18:07
@Dan: Dan you are so right Bro. Lets celebrate the actions or lack of animation of an English lad instead of sucking up to the gay gestures of the foreign contingent every time they score a goal. I thought Welbeck’s celebration was perfectly alright and I watched it again last night to see if I had missed anything. I’m sorry but I did not see the increased arrogance and cockiness that got him sent back to the reserves. What I saw is a confident player react mildly to the 4th goal in a game after the game was completely won. He didn’t go nuts as if he won the World Cup, he never started rocking his imaginary baby in his arms, he never took of his shirt and started to suck his daughter’s soother nor did he come up with any other of the very foreign and very gay celebrations that we have all been forced to endure over the years. Instead he acted like a player who had pride, dignity and had scored before. If we start punishing players for acting more like Thierry Henry after a goal, then we are losing perspective on things. I don’t like Henry but I have always liked the fact he never made a spectacle of himself after a goal. Shame on Fergie for punishing this lad for showing some pride and poise at the end of a goal. What the Hell is the world coming to when you get punished for that?
February 20th, 2009 at 18:13
@johnsom33: You know mate, you are probably right about that. Dan and I are probably overreacting and getting mad at Fergie when it’s the media as usual who are culprits here. With Rooney back it makes sense that Welbeck would be sent down in order to get playing time. I just cannot believe that Fergie would punish the lad for not celebrating a goal like all the other ass clowns out there who have turned goal celebrations into circus acts. Good point and I’d bet on your theory being 100% correct.
February 20th, 2009 at 18:15
Erm, the whole Welbeck thing is a complete non-starter, it’s completely fabricated. Like most things you read in the Sun. Why are we giving it credence by discussing it?
Anderson might be back for Carling Cup final, which would probably mean we’d play a 4-3-3 with Tevez, Welbeck, Nani up front, Fletch, Gibbo, Ando in the middle. Maybe. With the big guns on the bench just in case.
I’m beginning to doubt our chances now, as Harry is resting his spurs squad in the UEFA cup in preparation for the Carling Cup. What a f*cktart.
February 20th, 2009 at 18:22
@Beachryan: I agree the good old British media, load of bollocks.
February 20th, 2009 at 18:24
“New Arsenal signing Andrey Arshavin will pay for his hairdresser from St Petersburg to fly to London to cut his hair because his wife does not trust British stylists. (Daily Express)”
Has it really come to this? It’s too bad he’s too young to really remember what life was like pre 1990 in Mother Russia and that an ounce of practicality and humility wouldn’t hurt. And to think that I would go to that trouble to get an 1970’s style haircut like the one he has been wearing for years now.
EGOTISTICAL PEASANTS! I’m actually getting sick and tired of Russians like Arshavin, Pavlyuchenko and Voronin and their wives constantly put down life in England and all things English. Considering the sewer of a country they come from.
February 20th, 2009 at 18:28
@Grognard: Classic!!
Stalin and Lenin will be turning in their graves.
February 20th, 2009 at 18:29
@Beachryan: Lets be fair to Harry, he needs to try to win something for Spurs other than preventing relegation of course. The Carling Cup Final for Spurs is their Champions League final. I’d expect nothing but his best for that game. And I hope Fergie doesn’t knuckle under and do the same because it’s the kids that got him to the final. A quad is nice but not necessary. Rest your best for the important stuff. For me the Carling Cup has always been the B-Movie. Nothing I would pay money to see.
February 20th, 2009 at 18:36
@Stephen: Stalin and Lenin take most of the credit for having turned their country into a sewer.
I mean we have gone from 200 people long lines waiting to purchase bread or eggs to having some hack hairstylist who gives mullet cuts fly all the way to England to keep Andrey’s head looking like something from the 70’s Show. MADNESS! These people are so unhip and uncool it’s scary. And they complain about a country that invented pop culture, style and cool along with America. Proof positive of Russia’s dinosaur mentality. Apparently their number one television show in Russia is Hawaii Five-O and I Love Lucy because they are so hip and modern…….RIGHT! They probably think Goldfinger and Dr No are new movies too.
February 20th, 2009 at 18:43
@Grognard: That is fucking funny mate!!
By the way The Usual Suspects was a B Movie and look what Bryan Singer has achieved since then, the great X men films, three of them, X1, The league, X2 F A Cup and X3 the Champions league!
Lets hope it doesn’t turn out to be Superman Returns.
February 20th, 2009 at 18:57
There seems to be quite a bit of support on here for an American-style salary cap/earnings split (which is odd considering how much we’ve benefited for the lack of it). Yes, it would be nice if all the teams had the same resources available to them, but that throws up more problems. English clubs would still have more money than Ukrainian clubs. Is that fair? Players would rather go to live in London than Stoke. Is that fair?
There is a lot of disparity of football, especially internationally, but the fact remains that if I pay £30 to go watch United, I don’t want half of that money to go to the opponents. And when I buy a shirt I don’t want the cash to be split between every team in the Football League. Hoffenheim are this season showing that money isn’t a prerequisite for success (although it helps), as Allardyce showed at Bolton and Redknapp at Pompey.
It’s my opinion that while TV money should be split evenly at the end of the season, if a team attracts 70,000+ every game then they should keep the cash and if a team fails to bring even 20,000 fans then why should their poor performance be subsidised by better sides?
There will always be disparity, and attempting to alleviate it just hurts fans and players. Fans will be subjected to NFL/Reebok style kit monopolies and forced to pay the same for Derby vs Wigan as for Chelsea vs Arsenal, while players will have little faith in any team they join as building a side that can sustain success for more than 3 or 4 years becomes impossible, and ensuring a “fair” spread of youth players will likely result in something akin to the American draft system where crap teams get great players no matter what the player thinks about it.
Yes, it is unfair that we have benefited enormously because we have been successful as TV contracts have gone through the roof, but it is not as if those rewards were not earned. Circumstances were favourable, but they will always favour someone. Madrid were lucky that Franco was willing to let them naturalise the best players in the world and field a stolen team, but that team deserved everything they won.
The only fair system is one where success is rewarded and failure punished, and to pretend that eliminating the rewards for achievement in order to comfort the loser is fair is an out and out lie.
February 20th, 2009 at 20:50
@michael: Football leagues and culture has to emerge out of the Dark Ages. It’s stuck in some kind of Feudal stasis with no sign of common sense and reform in sight. God help us if we have to count on Michel Platini and Septic Bladder to become the game’s saviors. So many things have to be done and some would be looked upon as cruel and unfair but necessary. The Premier League must become what is advertised as, PREMIER. That means crap like Stoke and Reading Wovles and the rest of a sad lot of pretenders have got to be placed in a different league where they can evenly compete amongst each other. The Premier League must contain fewer teams and all those teams must have a pedigree and come from a city that has the population and resources to support a team of such high standards. And here is the thing, scrap the whole idea of relegation and promotion. You don’t see that kind of absolute nonsense in North America because American leagues consider themselves elite and prestigious. The teams that are allowed to enter such leagues do so because they are perceived to have the resources and a large enough fan base to warrant that standing. What gives the town of Durham North Carolina the bollocks or the perceived right to participate in a league with the New York Yankees? A town of 42,000 against a city of millions? Yet in England this kind of bullshit happens all the time and not just during FA Cup time. Why a city of 24,000 feels it belongs in any competition against a city of over 2 million is beyond me?
The problem with football leagues and their structure is the naive and rather stupid belief that a small community and relatively frugal team has the right to compete with a large team from a major city which has more supporters in the stands than the other town has in total population. Sure it’s romantic when a team like Hoffenheim can do what it has done in Germany this year. But it’s also a mirage, an aberration and a temporary freak of nature. One should not build a league with any substance and count on freakish events like that to happen regularly.
How on Earth is a league supposed to survive and prosper and have all it’s teams survive and prosper within it if it allows such disparity and unfairness to exist. How can Scotland as a nation possibly tolerate the injustice of a league where two teams have one the their league every year since 1985. That is comical and stands against everything that is fair about sports. This is not a knock on Rangers or Celtic. This is a knock on a League that allows this farce to go on year after year after year. It’s a disgrace and it’s an embarrassment. Why do the other teams even exist or why do they even bother to suit up every weekend? What is the point? They don’t have as good a players, enough money to compete nor the number of supporters to sustain revenue to make them more competitive.
If football cannot see that the time has come for major revisions and reform to take place and make the game more fair and basically more competitive, then the game will continue to be the laughing stock of millions of more intelligent people in the world who love competition, niot forgone conclusions. Spain needs a run where other teams other than Real and Barcelona win La Liga, Germany needs an era where Bayern is not the club that wins the league 8 out of 10 years. Italy needs to show that there are teams that play the game outside of Milan and Turin. The fact that teams from Rome have historically taken a back seat to these cities is a bit of an anomaly but then again, London hasn’t got too much to be proud of thanks to Manchester and Liverpool owning that dominance for the past 40 years.
It’s time for a salary cap, a spending cap and it’s time for teams to spend most of their money in player development. Build your dominance from the power of your youth system and scouting. I’m not for limiting the number of foreigners on a team, but I do believe that territorial limitations for youngsters is a joke. Limit the tv contracts and individual licensing agreements teams make. And if a Manchester United makes much more money than a Sunderland, that’s OK, as long as both teams are allocated the same rules for spending on players and staff. Play it even steven or get rid of the small teams. Perhaps the only solution is to have a league with only 10 or 12 big clubs. Manchester United, Man City, Liverpool, Everton, Aston Villa, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs, West Ham, Newcastle and a few others that historically have been financially solid and with a loyal and large fan base. Make this an elite league that stays the same every year. No relegation, no promotion. Let the Coca Cola League and all the others carry on as the are and reward them accordingly. For those teams, the ultimate is winning the Coca Cola League. They need not ever worry about playing in the Prem because that is a closed league for teams of solid financial support , fan support and municipal size.
It’s time to end the madness and this idiotic capitalist mentality thaty believes that a minnow has the right to compete with a giant despite the difference in quality and economic strength. It’s utterly ridiculous. It’s time for football to follow North American models for pro leagues and semi pro leagues. The teams in the American Hockey League do not suffer form the delusions or fantasy that one day they will be promoted to the NHL. They know their place and they know their role. It’s time that every team in England other than the ten or fifteen largest clubs got a the same grip on reality and realized that for them, the only competition that is and will ever be available to them where they play the elite, will be the FA Cup. REFORM and drastic REALITY is needed before football becomes a hinterland of empty seats and broken dreams.
February 20th, 2009 at 22:37
@Grognard: Well said, Grog!
It’s especially hard to fathom that when the season kicks off in August, 16 of the 20 teams really have nothing to play for!! Maybe they can elbow their way into a EUFA spot or shoot for the magic 40points that will allow then to begin their futile existence all over again the following year.
The cup competitions are scraps thrown their way by the FA so that some form hope can remain with their faithful supporters. This usually doesn’t work anymore either because the “big 4″ need to get ever bigger and when once the double was an amazing achievement, they now try for the treble and the quadruple.
I agree that the league is too large. Many of the smaller sides tend to bring down the standards and their short tenure only allows for 3 more also runs to sacrifice themselves the next season. You could make the argument that relegation and promotion should be an accumulative process, taking place over 2 or 3 seasons. If you’re consistently bad or consistently good then you deserve your respective fates.
February 20th, 2009 at 22:42
I’ve watched a lot of NFL. It’s boring. I’ve watched a lot of NHL. Unless they’re smacking the crap out of each other, boring. Baseball? fughedabahdit. I would gladly watch a game where Wigan 0 – 0 Hull and Newecastle 3 – 4 Liverpool are boring and exciting in equal amounts than the bland equilibrium the USA spews out.
All salary caps have done in ’soccer’ is mean they can pay Beckham whatever he wants, and the subs are on so little money that one of them cleans his pool to make ends meet.
It’s pointless even talking about it. It can never happen. European Court of Human Rights would be all over it for restriction of trade.
February 20th, 2009 at 23:39
@Traverse: i agree, i dont rate american sports at all, thats why they’re only big in america!
NFL? give me wasps anyday!
NBA? stoke vs wimbeldon on bloody muddy field is my fetish!
MLB? i’ll take test cricket and be glad with it
NHL? if i wont to see a bunch of drunken idiots beat the hell out of eachother ill go down to my local pub thank you very much!
February 20th, 2009 at 23:43
I’ve not checked this blog for a few days, but I’m glad that many of you guys are finally starting to see the light: yep, I’m talking about the apache Tevez.
The guy plays well except when it comes to the point that he has to make a pass.
More often than not, his decision making lets him down. Simply put, the guy has absolutely devoid of a footballing brain. I’m not putting the guy down, but it amazes me how to many the guy can’t be faulted because of his “effort”.
February 20th, 2009 at 23:53
@Grognard: “Everything that’s fair about sports”. I gather we have different ideas on what is fair, which is understandable, really. Your view seems to be that it’s fair as long as all competing teams have the same advantages and disadvantages, especially financially. This makes sense; if one team can spend £100 million on players while another makes do with 10, who do you think will end up with the better side? So I see where you’re coming from.
But I think that your view of fair is only achievable if we take the drastic step of creating a European super league, closing membership permanently and assigning players to teams through a lottery. And that isn’t fair on all the teams that get shut out, or the fans whose players get taken to their rivals or the players who have to move house.
My view is that nothing will ever be fair, no matter how hard we try. Even if we make it perfectly equal and fair at the start, there will be distortions over time until it no longer seems fair. It isn’t fair that Barcelona get Lionel Messi, but they shouldn’t have to share. It isn’t fair that 76,000 come watch us, but we shouldn’t have to split the proceeds. The solution isn’t to impose regulations that attempt to level the playing field, but to make sure that the system we have gives everyone equal opportunity regardless of other factors. Things like the UEFA coefficient system that perpetuate success as part of the system should be eliminated and the Champions League should be reformatted. The top team from every UEFA league should qualify automatically, with 2nd going to qualifiers. Then 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th (and maybe more) should play a playoff for the third qualifying spot in major leagues (UK, Spain, Germany etc). That would help teams who are actually good in knockout formats get in, as well as adding a bit of unpredictability to it.
But the main issue here is money; it’s the money that allows clubs to compete and that solidifies the positions of the top teams. So what we need is a system that spreads the money around to the losers, allowing them to build on their previous efforts. The problem is that teams may be tempted to do poorly for the cash, which nobody wants. Even with a solid system in place to do this, there would still be the problem of successful teams getting better sponsorship deals than others, further unbalancing the scales, and even with this accounted for, there is still the problem of attendance money. Some clubs just have smaller stadiums, whether because they don’t need more or because the ground is older than the club. It seems to me that interfering to correct these issues is “unfair”, especially with regards to stadiums. As I said before, when I buy a United ticket, I’m not buying £30 worth of Barclays Premier League, I’m buying 90 minutes of United. I’ll come back to my proposals for this in a bit.
The system you’re proposing is pretty much the European Super League, run like the NFL, and to be honest I think it sounds terrible. At the halfway point, there will be teams that can’t win but won’t get relegated, just filling up space in matches with teams that are competing. What player dreams of that? And then there’d be a functioning “old-school” league in every country, with relegation and their best players bought every year without fail. The funny thing is that it was proposals like yours (“let’s get all the best teams playing all the time”) which lead to the current football league instead of irregular competition, but you distort it by removing any downside to failure.
In my opinion, the fairest league system is one in which any group of people that wants and has the space to play once a week form a team, and become part of their national FA. As they progress through their regional leagues they can eventually get promoted into the national system, and through that come up into the top few tiers of football in their country. Once they’re there, if they win the top league, they will enter a cup competition for the other champions across the continent. In other words, I like what we’ve got.
To make it fairer economically, I would eliminate prize money. There is already enough available to the winners from sponsors, tv etc, so the money used on this should be spent by FAs on grassroots football, referees, anything. There would be an exception for promotion teams, who would each be given a figure a bunch of economists could work out based on wage bills or turnover or attendance or something compared to the average in the league. Sponsorship money would go to the league and get split equally between clubs, perhaps compensating clubs who develop youth (especially local/national youth) more than those who don’t. Gates would be kept by clubs, as would shirt sales.
This way, teams who do well will be rewarded, through kids buying the kit and standing at the ground singing their hearts out for a fair sum, but the huge amounts of cash generated by clubs like United and Real from adverts won’t help them get ahead and won’t compromise their interest. So there’ll be no need for a salary cap that stops players earning and prevents small clubs from signing big players because they can offer crazy wages.
I see why you want an American style system, but I honestly think it would drain a lot of the life from football, especially regional derbies, and the eventual likelihood of a world league of 6 clubs doesn’t mean we should hasten towards it. Money has been responsible for a lot of boredom in sport, but we shouldn’t stop a team dominating a league for a decade just because they might have been able to buy it. Fairness is for everybody, not just those who make it into an elite league.
I’ve just seen how much I wrote. Mental. Sorry.
February 21st, 2009 at 1:03
Grognard, i gotta say i agree 100% with what you said about the quality of the teams in the league. Teams like the stokes of this world really annoy me, they have absolutely no flair players, no one who is above an average championship player, no one who will ever be a somebody in the world of football, but a team who get praised for their brave displays when they sit back for 90mins and get a draw against liverpool or a last gasp goal we scored against them, why the hell do they get credit for sitting back all the game, its pathetic and its not what football is about. I really love football these days but despite not being that old i have to say from what i remember i much preferred football in the 90s. Just from watching old dvds from those days and the occassional premiership years i can see in those days the league as a whole in my opinion was to a much greater standard, i dont know for sure so maybe you can give your opinion but thats what i think anyway. In those days i saw 4-3s on a much more regular basis, i saw relegation teams getting big 3-2s against a top team when their own form was terrible. Top teams would regularly buy players from lesser teams because they were good enough. I ask you, apart from spurs, how many low level premiership players would ever be good enough to play for us. Even villa would probably only have ashley young and he would probably cost over £30million. I love us this decade but i cant help but feel the 90s with a more sportmanship attacking approach, free of crap defensive teams and players without a bloody sugar daddy making crap teams full of their wild ideas. Those were the days in my opinion even though i dont remember those days too well.
February 21st, 2009 at 1:55
@Dan: “MLB? i’ll take test cricket and be glad with it
“
You couldnt be more biased. i am an american and I hate everything about baseball. But there is no way you could convince me that cricket is a better sport. There is a reeason only former british colonies play cricket, and thats because the sport sucks so bad people would only play it when they had guns pointed at them forcing them to play.
as for the rest of the list, it is all just different strokes for different folks. I will say this though, If you want to see the best athletes on earth watch the NBA, guys like Lebron James and Dwight Howard arent even human. Lebron for example is 6′8″ and 270 lbs! yet he moves like he is 200 lbs.
As for the NFL I would be the first to admit that the games take waaaaayyyyyy tttttoooooo llloooonnnggggg. they have a commercial virtually every play. But if you can make thru the commercials you will find that the NFL is the Greatest freakshow on earth. they have 330 lbs lineman who could beat most of you in a sprint.
agree with me or disagree with me regarding basketball and the nfl, but what I said about cricket is FACT! That game absolutely sucks more than baseball.
February 21st, 2009 at 2:54
With all this talk of fair or not is not really the point. The PL has gone unchecked since its conception and we are now left with only 4 teams that could win it on any given year. The result is that the “big 4″ are getting bigger and the rest are getting smaller, the competition is getting weaker and a lot of games are, frankly, getting harder to watch. How to fix this should be the point of any discussion. Whether its a smaller league, a more thoughtful promotion/relegation process, a salary/spending cap, the introduction of strongly financed expansion teams or whatever you can come up with, something surely needs to be done about it!!
February 21st, 2009 at 3:24
@johnsom33: And how many countries play Baseball, and uh “Football”. You don’t like Cricket because you don’t understand it and if you live in the US, I just know how you could.
February 21st, 2009 at 3:44
@Traverse: It’s attitudes like that which keep reform from happening. Giving up before you even started. As for the NFL and the NHL, unless you are from North America and have grown up with these sports, I’d suggest you think about things before calling them boring. It’s like me saying cricket is boring because I’ve watched a few test matches. They aren’t your sports so you really aren’t in any position to put them down now are you mate?
The court of public opinion and basic supply and demand has ruled politics and law for centuries. If the sports begin to fail and and stumble financially, trust me, the European courts will wake up to the fact. Already Platini has gone in front of them this week trying to get a European wide salary cap implemented. So don’t tell me it’s impossible. Nothing is impossible when the re is a will and a way. That narrow vie is what keeps the game from ever developing into something truly special. It’s like the idiot who is so used to eating Kraft Dinner, the thought of a nice juicy steak is foreign to him. Sorry but I just don’t get that kind of thinking. Rome wasn’t built in a day nor will the game of football be changed for the better in a day. But doing nothing will just keep the game from evolving and that is criminal.
February 21st, 2009 at 4:02
@Dan: Unfuckingbelievable!!
I don’t believe you just made those comments. I never thought you were that ignorant. I’ve got news for you Dan, America is the center of the civilized world whether you want to agree with that or not. And the fact it doesn’t waste it’s time playing third world sports and has evolved into something bigger and better than you can fathom says a lot about your tastes and your tolerance bro. I give a rats ass if NFL football or NHL hockey isn’t big in Mogadishu, Khartoum or Katmandu. When you put down North American sports and call it bad you show your onw close minded and narrow views in your own special Dan-like way. All you are doing is just pointing a finger at your own intolerance and ignorance. I am not a cricket or rugby fan but I respect the sports and I don’t put them down without knowing jack shit about them. Most fans who don’t like US football or hockey don’t understand it and in most cases aren’t man enough to play it yet alone get into fight while playing it. So I’ll leave you to your handbags and nail polish and you can watch all the footy you like with all the girlymen and drama queens that millions of Man City and Chelsea pounds can buy my friend. Just think twice next time you decide putting down the sports of my culture. Sorry for the rant mate but that was just wrong. 
February 21st, 2009 at 4:06
@NicoQB: One of the big problem with many of the faster and quicker players in the game today is that their speed often betrays their heads and their skills at passing and shooting. Slower and more controlled players often look like the better shooters and passers because their bodies are in better control for the moment of impact. Tevez often runs and hustles to sat and too furious for his own good. This cause his whole body top tense up and lack the calmness and finesse that is needed to hit it a ball properly and to make a touch pass. Too much speed and hustle I feel is the reason we see so many terrible shots in the game today. If the game was a touch slower and calmer, the quality of the shooting and the quality of passing would be much better.
February 21st, 2009 at 5:36
@michael: The bottom line Michael is that professional sports need to adopt socialist ideologies if they are to survive in a future that will be financially more volatile than we have ever seen before. The days of supporters accepting the status quo are coming to an end. People are having to work twice as hard for their dollar and they can no longer afford to spend their money on a waste of time and forlorn hope. Unless League’s adopt measures to even the playing field between the haves and the have nots, the gap will widen even more and will actually mimic the world economy which is systematically destroying the middle class. You either will have lots of money or no money at all. The majority will not have any money and they will not tolerate this for long. Revolution in the world will be rampant and it will happen in sports too. Nobody wants to be the bitch of somebody more powerful and richer.
The EPL will have no choice but to impose a salary cap and spending restrictions in order to make things fair, or the league will implode. And for those who think the European legal system won’t allow it, think twice. Look back at Europe’s history and you will see numerous times when the system has broken down and succumbed to the will of the people. Nazi Germany grew out of the ashes of a frustrated race of people who were forced to pay unfair reparations for a war they never started. The Great Depression hit everyone in the 30’s because nobody took the warning signs seriously. Lets not forget the revolt of the people in the French Revolution. Anarchy is a scary thing and this New World Order that is taking over the planet will not survive without the will of the people.
The multi billionaires who are buying up the Chelsea’s and the Man City’s will be forced to sell and get a kick onto the first boat from where they came from. Economics will force it’s hand and these investors will soon get bored with their new hobby. It’s already showing with Abramovich at Chelsea and the Man City group will lose interest after a few futile seasons where they have failed to lure the players they want to their team and after their team fails to win anything. These rich individuals are playing with the hearts and souls of the fans of these two teams. It’s only a tax shelter and a hobby for them and they will get bored if things don’t work out for them. Then those teams will suffer a mighty crash.
What I am trying to say is that the game needs to get it’s shit in order before it loses everything. I am not a socialist but I am a liberal. I do not believe that football can continue to succeed and survive with it’s current capitalist right wing mantra. It may be ten years before things implode, it might be two years, but something has got to give. Escalating player salaries and transfer fees and the high cost of tickets are taking the game down a very dangerous path to destruction. And for those of you who disagree, fine, be that way. Trust me, when it happens I’ll be the loudest on the block stating that I told all of you so. I have studied economics and marketing for many years and I see the economic trends and mistakes that are being made by stupid people under the name of sheer greed. And it will blow up in all their faces. Apathy is rampant amongst those with the money as well as many followers who sit and do nothing and say nothing. Meanwhile their club is being systematically destroyed from within. Europe will be the first to fall along with North American sports that haven’t gotten their house in proper order like Major League Baseball.
I don’t begrudge a team like the NY Yankees the right to spend 250 million dollars on their team roster, but that still speaks of tremendous irresponsibility towards the game and sends a terrible message at a time when people are losing their jobs and their homes due to the greed and mismanagement of Wall street and the big banks that were entrusted to protect them. Meanwhile the Yankees increase their ticket sales and are moving into a new stadium whole everyone around them crashes and burns. What is wrong with that picture?
Sports need to move into a period where they use fiscal responsibility and common sense. Where they do the right thing and the politically correct thing. Where they give back to their supporters instead of steal from them by charging them to download a wallpaper or ring tone from their fucking web site. The greed and money grab has to stop because frankly, very few of us can afford it anymore. I want to see a league with teams that compete on a even playing field and who compete on the field because one team has done a better job recruiting and scouting players than the other and that may possess a better manager and strategist. What fun is it when one knows that Celtic and Rangers always win because they have more money than Hearts and Partick Thistle? It’s heading for total madness unless a man of reason and common sense steps in with the help of the European legal community to put an end to this fascist way of running sports leagues. Enough already.
February 21st, 2009 at 5:49
@michael: Thers only so much room in an elite league. It is not the right of every team to feel they should be able to fight for entry in that league. Frankly an elite league should only have teams from large cities and large grounds. So the small teams need not apply. There are league for them. Delusions of grandeur are epidemic in world football because of this relegation/promotion thing. Scrap it, it’s antiquated and ridiculous. It serves no purpose but to humiliate teams moving up ans well as moving down.
Some of your ideas have great merit but only if great reform takes place first. Baby steps do not work. Drastic tactics and sever measures must be incorporated so that fairness and justice is served. Don’t knock North American sports. They have survived and prospered much greater than world football over the past five decades and especially the past decade since most of them invoked salary cap and spending measures to create parity. In the NFL there has not been a repeat winner two years in a row of the Super Bowl since 1994 No team has ever won the championship three years in a row. In hockey there has not been a repeat champion in over 15 years. These leagues are not without trouble but they are much more stable due to the fairness in their class structure. Last year the New England Patriot s and Dallas Cowboys had the best records in the league. This year both teams missed the playoffs. When was the last time you saw that happen in soccer? Pretty easy to pick a winner in Scotland. England, Spain, Germany, France, Holland and Italy. There are no more than two or three teams in each league that are legit contenders every year. In North America that would be perceived as a poor product.
February 21st, 2009 at 5:57
@Matthew: If you think football in the 90’s was good, you should have checked leagues like the Bundesliga in the 70’s and early 80’s. 6-4, 5-4, 4-3, 6-3, were common scores and back then Bayern Munich was a great team but there was also greatness coming out of Moenchengladbach, Hamburg, Cologne and several other teams. The league was not a forgone conclusion and it was not unheard of to see the great Bayern occasionally get trounced by a team like Schalke back in 1975 by a score of 1-7 at home. And tha year Bayern won their second European Cup.
The game was open and attack oriented and not bogged down by the petty politics and economics that the game suffers from today. An 18th place team would never park the bus and defend for 90 minutes. They would have the courage to face their opponent and try to beat them by outscoring them. Imagine that!
It’s a shame to have lived as long as I have and see the game steadily deteriorate like it has over the past 40 years. And then to have some 17 or 18 year old or whatever tell me that I’m full of shit and that what I am saying would never happen. As if they have lived long enough to see what I already have seen in the changing landscape of world football. It’s frankly easy too predict the upcoming implosion and destruction of the pro game. Greed can’t help itself. Long gone are the days of “Total Football” and have been replaced with total stupidity and greed.
February 21st, 2009 at 5:57
@Redrich: @Redrich: “And how many countries play Baseball, and uh “Football”
nobody else plays “american football” because quite frankly no other country has the athletes to do so. sorry to say but only freaks of nature can play in the NFL. skill really isnt required, its 90% raw athleticism. from what I have seen from around the world, no other country can consistently produce the athletes to play all the different positions.
as for baseball? Like I said before I hate everything about baseball, it sucks balls, but cricket is by far worse. how many countries play baseball? Im glad you asked… how about all central and south america, Canada, Japan, Korea, China, Taiwan. none of which the US controlled.
who plays cricket? India, Australia, West indies… notice a pattern there?
February 21st, 2009 at 6:02
@johnsom33: Johnson, I recently was introduced to a bit of cricket from Red Ranter of all people and I must say that the sport is not bad at all. It’s just hat unless you played it or have been rable to relate to it from childhood, it’s difficult to pick up and totally appreciate it as an uninitiated adult. But i will no tlisten Europeans or Asians or anybody for that matter put down the greatness and majesty that is North American sports. They know nothing of these sports and the culture around them yet we know quite a bit about football (soccer) culture because we were open minded enough to adopt a sport that wasn’t featured or promoted in North America. So I chose to call myself enlightened as opposed to those who comment from sheer ignorance.
February 21st, 2009 at 6:14
@johnsom33: Nope I don’t see the pattern!! Only 2 countries play “Football” and by your count 5 play Baseball. Hardly a massive adoption of these majestic sports. And you’re right, pure athleticism, not much skill – just unadulterated, steroid induced, testosterone. Wow, now that’s special!!
February 21st, 2009 at 6:31
@Grognard: “And the fact it doesn’t waste it’s time playing third world sports”.says it all really
February 21st, 2009 at 6:48
@sunny: Yep, doesn’t have much time for the Third World anymore!
February 21st, 2009 at 7:09
@Redrich: well the pattern is that ecery counrty that plays cricket is a former british colony. as for baseball, if you didnt realize, central and south america is more than 2 countries. I would only expect an american to be that ignorant to suspect they were only 2 countries.
As for NFL being a bunch roided out freaks… your right. They are on steriods, but thats also why i love it, cause they put everything on the line(of course im not serious.)
February 21st, 2009 at 9:56
@Redrich: A great sport is not defined by how many countries adopt it.
February 21st, 2009 at 10:05
@johnsom33: Lets not forget Japan, Taiwan and other countries in Asia that also play baseball. In fact, baseball is more popular in those Asian countries than soccer. Trust me, America loses no sleep if Europe does not adopt one of it’s sports and still, US football leagues have existed, hockey is big in Europe and basketball is massive in many European countries. So the argument that no Norht American sports are adopted elsewhere is weak. As for countries that get by kicking cans in the alley and and committing genocide or something horrific, do I care if they don’t care our sports. America or Canada is not concerned that every third world shit hole picks up one of their sports. Soccer is popular in those countries because it costs nothing to buy a ball or make one with garbage and a little bit of tape. It really is a sport for everyone regardless of their economic standing. Unfortunately US football, hockey and baseball require equipment that costs a lot of money. That has more to do with many countries not buying in to it as well, hockey is a cold weather sport so only Northern and Eastern Europe and Japan can really take it seriously enough to attempt it.
February 21st, 2009 at 10:27
Dan, Redrich, johnsom33 and everyone who thinks one sport superior to the other:
We can argue ourselves silly, dismissing certain sports as extremely dull in comparison to certain other. But it’s one thing dismissing it off hand, and an entirely different issue dismissing it after having understood a that sport’s finer aspects.
For me, I watch college American football because I can relate to it because of my emotional investment in my alma mater. Despite the fact they aren’t beating sides to pulp, I can support them, and of course, since my understanding of American football is much better now than the days I thought it was just a set of helmet covered elephants colliding into each other. There is plenty of tactical nous involved in the game that makes me appreciate that sport. Of course, I can’t wrap myself around the spectacle that’s the NFL which doesn’t allow me to appreciate professional american football. But the sport as such is something I don’t mind watching.
Basketball is fun to watch, but I tend to prefer it in the last 5 minutes.
Which brings me to Baseball v Cricket.
Groggy may have mentioned my interest in cricket, which I admit, I am big fan of. So I make that disclaimer in advance. But I made countless genuine attempts at understanding baseball. I actually watched tons of baseball games in a genuine effort at trying to get it’s finer aspects. I appreciate the role of the pitcher in baseball, and it’s love of stats is something akin to that of cricket too. But the finer aspects of the game some how never rubbed onto me.
johnsom33, I can actually see where you are coming from when you call cricket boring. But then you may be comparing a three-five hour baseball game with cricket’s five day version which, if you ask me, is unfair. Cricket is one game that has shown the greatest willingness to evolve with the times (and it has three different versions to it). I could argue that a three hour cricket game (yes there is a three hour version of the game too) is infinitely more engaging than a baseball match. But that’s my opinion and will be besides the point. So what’s my point?
In short, flippant dismissal of sports without a clue of the way it works is extremely juvenile. We can argue about a sport’s inadequacies after having a good idea of its finer aspects rather than calling it even before knowing what an LBW is.
February 21st, 2009 at 10:31
And btw, I have a new post up.
February 21st, 2009 at 12:05
LOL
i was going to put at the end, “im only joking, but in reality i prefer these sports” but instead i chose to leave it out to see how many of you think i was being serious. jeez grognard, ignorant? 
shame of the lot of ya! to think i was being serious! still quite funny looking at your reactions 
February 21st, 2009 at 18:30
@Dan: Dan if you were joking, I couldn’t tell. There was no way to indicate that you were joking. So I responded based on the information I was offered. So if indeed you were just having a laugh, you should have no problem disregarding my comments as irrelevant seeing as you were not being serious. In that case, nothing I said applies to you.