Jul 04
Eight years of lies
“Our indebtedness could adversely affect our financial health and competitive position.”
This statement appears at the bottom of page 25 of the documents filed by Manchester United to to the US Securities and Exchange Commission on Tuesday, after the Glazer family had made clear that they intend to move the club registration to the Cayman Island and float its shares at the New York Stock Exchange.
The word “indebtedness” surfaces 43 times in the legal documents the Glazers were asked to provide and it’s a chilling reminder of the dire financial situation the club find itself in.
The Glazers’ latest idea aims to raise substantial funds to repay part of the £423 million debts that are currently burdening the club or, as Glazer expert David Conn writes on the pages of the Guardian, “To date the Glazers’ takeover has cost United more than £500m in interest, bank charges and fees, after they borrowed £525m to buy the club, then made it responsible for servicing their debts.”
Without entering the financial picture too in detail (Red Rants is, after all, a football blog) this puts everything United fans have been fed in the last eight years under a complete different light, portraying far from promising scenarios – scenarios that the majority of United fans had come to expect since 2005.
The owners have finally admitted that the club faces huge debts, yet they refuse to listen to any offers which shows how little they care for the club, let alone the fans.
The fans, yes. Us. The match going Reds, the Reds that have stopped going out of financial reasons or simply because they have grown disenchanted with the PR machine that Old Trafford has become in the last eight years, where does this statement leave us?
Without mentioning the last less than successful transfer campaigns, less than two months ago David Gill insisted that United were ready to give Sir Alex all the financial support he needed.
Some believed him, most didn’t and the documents filed by the Glazers clearly contradict Gill’s policy and statements over the last eight years and to suggest that he didn’t know what went on behind the scenes would be ludicrous.
Obviously the floatation could go either way and even be successful from a financial point of view, but the timing of the statement regarding the debts could have not been worse as United are desperately trying to strengthen the squad with money they, as their owners have clearly stated, might not afford to spend.
Being lied to is bad enough, being lied to for eight years by individuals perfectly aware of their actions is simply intolerable.
We want our club back.
Here you can read the Guardian’s David Conn and Jamie Jackson articles.
Dan (@MUFC_dan87)
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Tags: Manchester United News
The_Philosopher (397)
Redrich (215)
Opti (203)
Moscow (147)
Stephen (144)
Thank you for these truths.It has been obvious since the takeover that these fucking vermin have been like a plague of leeches on every fan of this club.The financial system is wrong where filth can borrow funds to purchase, yet have no personnel responsibility in carrying the debt or its servicing.They stole this club for one reason.To line their own filthy pockets with more wealth.I use the word stole deliberately because they steal from us!They steal from the club. Those scum need a reality check with a baseball bat in a dark alley.
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Yeah you can lie to the fans but you cannot lie to the SEC so thank God for that. In fact it is a testimony to how profitable the club is that we’ve been able to stay afloat even with the massive LBO debt burden.
I can only dream about the sort of transfer funds we would have had available without the Glazer curse.
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@colver: imagine if we hadn’t been burdened with them for the last eight years? Just think of the players we could have (and should have) signed. Mind boggling
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@Daniele: More importantly, how cheap the tickets would still be and thus the people that would still be able to go and how much better the atmosphere would be at OT.
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Finally we have in black and white what many of us have been saying from the start.
“Our indebtedness could adversely affect our financial health & competitive position”.
Your move, Gill.
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What makes me laugh is those ludicrous Man United Reds, who still support the party line of how wonderful GLAZERNOMICS are. Get fookin real you GLAZERNOMIC supporters. What I would like to know if any of you who understand economics can tell me please, is why would anybody want to buy United shares, when buyers they only get 1/10 of any vote, and NO DIVIDENDS. People would have to be out of their minds to further want to lace the bank accounts of the Glazers. I mean doesn’t such investment mean the Glazers will be getting ALL THE DIVIDENDS. Please I may be showing my ignorance here regarding the financial world, but I am not stupid enough to believe that people investing, don’t do so to get a return on their money. They wont be getting any return here for their investment will they? If any of you can help me get my head around this, then please explain to me why anybody would want to invest with no prospect of return – but just to further help the Glazers to get rid of their huge debts. It sounds like MADNESS to me, but maybe my ignorance is blinding me from seeing properly. Anybody willing to enlighten me please guys? Tell me any advantage to investors buying these shares, that’s all I ask – thanks!
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@Craig Mc: Whoever thumbed down this comment, but didn’t have the decency to comment and say what your problem is with it, then says it all about you really. I truly want my club out of debt, that the irresponsible Glazers and even more irresponsible David (debt is the road to ruin) Gill got us into. I want to understand why investors, would be motivated to buy United shares, when they seemingly get nothing from it. Please explain to me why anybody (faithful United supporter) would do that, what advantage is there for them. I want to understand that’s all, if there is some advantage, then fair enough, but what is that advantage. If on the other hand Mr thumbs down, you are a GLAZERNOMIC supporter – well nuff said – the thumbs down would naturally follow for you!
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Plenty of shares in the US don’t pay dividends. Microsoft didn’t used to and Apple have only just started paying a dividend.
If a company earns money and puts it in the bank, rather than paying it out in dividends, that money in the bank counts as an asset. And the value of that asset ought to be reflected in the share price.
People also buy dividendless shares if they think the value of the company will grow, going forward. They aim to make their money from a rise in the share price.
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@ChrisW: OOPS
, sorry Chris I only just saw your 12.49 post – thanks for that, I see the advantage for buyers now then!
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David Conn’s article states that United have 659 million supporters worldwide. Surely, at least a couple of these are assassins? Maybe we could pass around the hat and get them a job.
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Rephrase for the Glazers – Our indebtedness HAS already adversely affected our financial health and competitive position.
Yet not the Glazer’s health and competitive position, but Manchester United, Our beloved clubs – Love United, HATE Glazers!
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LUFGG love united fuck glazer & gill
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Some people are just determined to find the negative in everything. David Conn should be aware that share prospectuses always list all conceivable issues to cover themselves legally. It doesn’t mean that management are currently worried about the debt.
Besides, the whole point of this floatation is to reduce debt. They have stated that no dividend will be paid on the issued shares and that all the proceeds will be used to pay off debt. The amount may be more than $100m too – apparently this is just a “placeholder”.
Let’s hope this floation goes ahead. If it does the club will have more money to spend because they’ll be paying less debt interest.
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@ChrisW: Mate with all due respect, the Man Utd management may not be worried about the debt, but so very many loyal Man United red fans are, and they are not just being negative, they are genuine fans who care. If the IPO goes ahead and succeeds, and the money does ALL go to pay off debt, terrific. However, what if it is not successful, no where for Glazers and their huge club debta to go then is there. Don’t get me wrong Chris, I love United, and so much more than I care about Glazers and Gill, I hope for the clubs sake the IPO does take off. You didn’t answer the question though of why the investors will not be getting dividends? You seem to understand economics Chris, so can you just say what advantage will any investors be getting by buying the shares – I would appreciate it if you could, because I am just not getting why anybody would want to invest large sums of money? I don’t truly understand stocks and shares, so what does it mean to have shares that don’t bring proper voting rights, or dividends. I thought I understood that shares in a business etc, meant that you got a share of any profits. Have I misunderstood this?
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Regarding dividends, see my answer to you above.
If there is no interest in the IPO and it doesn’t happen then that will be because the Glazers wanted to price the shares too high. But anyway I don’t see any danger. If things got desperate and they needed the money then clearly they could float shares at a lower price.
But things aren’t desperate. Gill is right, the debt is sustainable, it’s not a threat to the club’s survival. But it does limit our spending and it would be great to reduce or get rid of it.
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Craig I suppose the optimistic outlook is that the funds raised through the share issue are used to reduce the debt load. The initial amount is rumored to be only $100M so we will still have $300M outstanding.
Anyway you’d have to be pretty dumb to buy Manchester United shares given that our debt payments each year are around five times our profits.
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@colver: Colver, I am just wondering if it is just ONLY THE IPO funds that will be used to pay off the club or rather the vulture Glazers) debts, and that once the debts are cleared, then those who bought shares through IPO will get dividends on profits, as shareholders for the money they invested??? I am just bloody confused about how these things work mate
.
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Who the fuck would buy class A shares worth a tenth of the voting and not even full dividend rights? The sheer cheek and audacity…
Glazers and their cronies Gill and Fergie are here to stay fellas. Only last week Fergie was begging for season ticket sales on behalf of his masters after a season of winning fuck all. Ferguson you fucking coward, better to threaten to stand down then get involved in something so criminal and disgusting as raping and pillaging the club. These guys don’t care a jot for the fans, without the Glazer takeover we could have sold every ticket for free and ended up in the same financial position
We can bemoan the lack of world class players, the ticket prices, being treated like idiots by the club, but we can’t do anything about it except swear and curse at the people responsible. So I’ll do just that, fuck off out of this club Gill you greedy piece of shit
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@Moscow:
.
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Craig MC any dividends we would have to pay out would be much much much much lower than the interest we were paying on the debt paid off.
For example if we were paying around 10% interest on the $100M we pay off with the equity issue then at most we’d have to pay 2-3% dividend to shareholders.
Also remember that dividends are optional. We are free to cut the dividends if we run into financial trouble but debt holders are entitled to their pound of flesh
Trust me if the Glazers use this float to pay off some of the debt it would be great news for the club
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@colver: Yeah mate, I understand your point about the dividend payout being less than the debt. However, on Anders Red site he was saying that the IPO states that no dividends will be payed at all to the buyer, not on the IPO, as all money made from the float will go towards the paying off debt. So STILL nobody has answered my question – that is what incentive will buyers of our club shares have, IF THEY BUY. Very little voting rights, and no dividends to inspire them. What I want to know is IF and HOW buyers of our club shares will ever get a share of profits in the long run? I am going mad, isn’t this an easy question to answer from any of you who know about stocks and shares???
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@Craig Mc: That the share price will rise and their shares will be worth more money, so they can sell them on.
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@Traverse: At fookin last, someone answered my question – thanks Trav. So the incentive to buy is the hope that the stocks will rise, become more in demand, and can be sold on at profit – GOT IT mate, took me some time, but I got there
.
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So the piece of shit owners and lap dog David Gill are going to continue to bleed our club dry by any means necessary. I have lost pretty much all hope of them leaving the club. And anyone thinking things will change after Fergie leaves will be wrong too because they will just insert another company man like David Moyes into the seat. LUHG
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See my answer to you at 12:49.
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Craig MC whoever is arranging the float will get a sizable sum as an “underwriting fee”. The shareholders sole inducement is a share of the ownership of the club. If there are any profits left over after paying debt (DEBT HOLDERS HAVE A SENIOR CLAIM SO GET PAID BEFORE THE SHAREHOLDERS GET ANYTHING) then most of the remaining profits will be reinvested into the club to increase future earning power so that shareholders benefit from the same percentage share in a much larger enterprise and this will be reflected by an increase in the share price and if they are lucky they will also get a portion of remaining profits as a dividend.
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Lies, lies and more lies. Gill, Fergie and the Glazers have been telling us porkies for years. I hope this floatation is a flop because it’s a farce and just another nail in the coffin for our fantastic football club. These wankers make me sick, why don’t they piss off and give us back our club. Wait for the classic Fergie/Gill qoute “There is no value in the market” What a joke. We have no money, and will have none until these leaches fuck off. I’ve given up my 3 seasons tickets this year because I will no longer give money to a corrupt, evil and sickening regime. We need a bad few years and maybe then they’ll go.
Shane
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“Our indebtedness could adversely affect our financial health and competitive position.”
Aww how good of them to admit it at long last. Only confirming what we all knew back 7 bloody years ago.
Would love to hear what that smug, ponce gill has to say about this. He has an answer for everything, the tosser.
Absolute fucking leeches the lot of them (and yeah that includes fergie “theyre great owners, debt isnt a problem etc etc” too).
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And what the fuck is this about registering a holding company in the cayman islands? The cayman fucking islands? Hmm dodgy comes to mind.
What is it that they are so desperate to hide i wonder?
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@tonymontanna4united:- banking in the Cayman islands is a money saving asset. It is either paying no tax on our club income, or paying 35 million to the US government and donating to the US treasury coffers. So I am with the Cayman thing mate, and a lot of big companies are moving their funds to the Caymans, IT IS LEGAL MATE, and it is tax free.
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@Craig Mc: You may as well be speaking another language when going on about business matters mate
Just the stereotype view that the cayman islands is only ever where con men and big time gangsters end up putting their money. Nice and shady, which is about the sort of scene that would probably appeal to the glazere.
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@tonymontanna4united:
– Perhaps all big business powers that be are gangsters in their dealings mate, even all that we consider legit. Just look at what is going on with the rogue dealing of Barclays, RBS, and now supposedly sanctioned by Bank of England – with their dodgy lending between banks. Are there any more honest blokes left in big business mate? Seems most of them are big fat liars – right 
. So I just get up, munch down my cornflakes, and put my head back in its haze for the rest of the day. Gotta be one of the 3 wise monkeys these days Tony mi man – See all, hear all, and stay schtum 
.
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@Craig Mc: Its the death of the working classes i say mate.
but i really am so old fashioned in my views.
No one has any pride, no one seems to be just honest, hard working decent people anymore.
Its just all greed, selfishness and getting by doing as little as possible.
Especially the people at the top, in high business.
God i must sound so old
Cant help but feel for all the technological advancements, the so called better quality of life, and all the benefits of having more money (on the whole) than we did years ago, people were alot happier back in the good old days despite having very little.
Your word was your word, and people had their priorities in order.
Simple folk that loved their families, loved a drink/smoke, and loved their football. All material/monetary wealth else was immaterial.
Damn, was i born in the wrong decade or what
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@tonymontanna4united: Totally agreed mate.
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Off topic but Van Persie has confirmed he will not sign a new contract with Arsenal.
I just wonder where he will be playing next season?
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@RedOrDead: We could do with a target man like him.
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In this order:
1) Glazers out
2) Gill out
3) Fergie out
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If the IPO is unsuccessful, the Glazers will have two options:
1) Higher investment for players to keep competitive but lower profitability
2) Buy back bonds and higher profitablility but leave us even further behind our competitors.
Now I understand why Fergie said he’d love to be 2nd best after our CL humiliation at the hands of Barcelona.
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@Moscow: If we get the glazers out everything @Moscow: The best bet is to raise $600mil in the IPO, pay off ALL DEBTS and give Fergie £100mil 2 months too late to buy Hazard, Modric and Van Persie!
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give it another 8 years and we might be top 6 team. every one that is attacking fergie should put their feet in fergieis shoes because dont think for one moment he is enjoying the current situation and seeing city stealing our transfer targets and pipping us for the titlE. Fergies public defence of the glazors is actually for the benefit of the club because he knows if he is replaced there is no oone out there to steady the ship. Like I am sure fergie would love to buy players like nasri and play nice football but in reality we cant so he is doing the best he can we mediocre players like, welbeck, cleverly, young and to a point wayne rooney. Rooney had all the potential when is was younger but he has regressed and he has now become jack of trades and master of none and the euros proved that. I am not saying he isnt quality because he is. But he just isnt silva, modric, ronnie etc. Hopefully kagawa in behind him will see him return as a master striker and have welbecks ass on the bench
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@ash is the man: I used to think like that, but when i actually stepped back and thought about it, i came to the conclusion that the real reason why fergie is keeping schtum is actually because he doesnt care about off field politics, and because i get the feeling he genuinelly thinks theyre great owners.
Maybe he also feels a little guilty too. I mean, it is down to him afterall and his act of total selfishness regarding the rock of gibraltor race horse fiasco that led to the sale of the club to glazer. Thats got to weigh on the guys mind surely?
As for being in an awkward position where he feels he cant say anything, well tbh again i cant believe that good old working class fergie is biting on his tongue, scared to rock the boat.
Because throughout his career, hes never been scared to make his feelings known. How many times, under the PLC, did he make demands and ultimatums to martin edwards, asking for more money.
Every time he was risking his job in doing so, but he knew for the sake of the club and the direction it needed to be going, that these demands needed to be made.
Ultimately it usually ended with his demands being met the majority of the time, precisely because he wasnt standing for such shit off the suits and other board members.
Now though im supposed to believe that poor little fergie, is so desperately wanting to scream and shout to the world about our predicament, but cant because he feels scared he might lose his job because of it, oh and he might actually be harming the club by doing so?
Bull shit.
If fergie aint speaking, its because he doesnt want to speak.
If he says he supports the glazers and their regime, then you’d better believe that he very well does back them and their corrupt bloody regime.
I know some people cant stomach that, and wont want to believe that, but i without a shadow of a doubt feel thats the real problem in all this.
That fergie didnt say owt, because he didnt want to say owt. Probably because his vision was so blinded by his own power, he wasnt interested in what was going on off the pitch.
And as such he has continued to support the glazers, throughout their rotten tenure, and im sure will continue to do so even after they have left.
Keeping silent, was never going to be of benefit to the club. How could it? Let them rape and pillage for the forseeable, and keeping quiet is going to help that?
Keeping silent is only papering over the cracks and postponing the inevitable. The debt still remains. The glazers are still going to be taking liberties. Were still going to be restricted in the transfer market.
But its not a problem because we’ll forget about it for the minute so we can win some nice shiny trophies
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@ash is the man: The IPO means we’ll be more likely to compete because we will have an extra £50mil a season we’re not paying off debts with.
We’ve pissed away £600mil on that shit in the last 8 years, if we have that extra in the next 8 we’ll be fine. As long as it goes to the team and not the Glazers pockets, which this IPO suggests they now know they need to spend more on the team. NLF this aint.
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@Traverse: If you look at how the NYSE listings worked,
the $100mil figure is a number or risk underwriters and the size and price of stock have yet to be fully determined and will most likely to be at least the size of the current debt(maybe less or more).
Around $400+mil is left after repayment of bond issues and can be at any time be reactivated to produce operating cash(slowing down the remaining debt payments with minimal risks). This means that annually the club will receive cash from shares. This is how good chunks of NFL teams operate.
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the real reason fergie hasnt complained is because of his pride. fergie was always eager to jump on martin edwards back because martin always had the tendency to interfare in the teams affairs. fergie was willing to sell his soul as long as the glazers left him alone. MAKE NO MISTAKE FERGIE LOVE UNITED, BUT HE LOVES HIS PRIDE MORE. THE AIR THAT HE IS THE BE ALL AND END ALL OF UNITED IS WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT TO HIM.
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They’ve lied to us that much its become second nature. There’s money in the bank, there’s no value in the market, financially we’re fine. I wouldn’t put it past them putting the naming rights for old trafford up like they did at newcastle. I hate them yank twats!
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It just ties in with everything I have been campaigning about. the complete lack of honesty, the sacrifice of any loyalty. These are desperate times and its no coincidence that we enter another year of price rises, ANOTHER red shirt and now (lowest of all) a dreadful plea from Fergie for people to renew season tickets.
Yet he continues to tell us how great “the owners” are. Rewind 20 years and fergie would drop our best players because they were late for training, he’d change formation with 20 minutes to go, he’d bark orders from the sidelines, he’d have the players walk off at half time dreading the hairdryer treatment that was coming their way.
Now he’s in a video telling us that no other club can bring you the excitement that United brought us this year. (????) Oh – and “please can you renew your season tickets”
Dark times
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