Oct 19
FA charge Ferguson over conduct
It’s been what, two weeks now since the Sunderland game? In the intervening period we had an international break, during which tortoises completed two marathons. The normally proud Ferguson tended two apologies and, as the anticipation over the FA’s inevitable punishment grew, the officials came crawling out of their secret chamber and announced that Ferguson will be charged of ‘improper conduct’.
The Premier League fraternity were stunned. And out of their collective mouths escaped the words: ‘No shit, Sherlock!’
But it didn’t stop there. Apparently, Ferguson has another two weeks to respond. This is after tending two apologies (one in public and one to the FA).
Great work, FA!
At this rate they’ll take until next summer to decide to punish Ferguson with a fine/touchline ban/being forced to read Jeff Winter’s columns for a week etc.
Not that I’m complaining…
Related items from Red Rants:- Evra’s Ban Smacks of Inconsistency | Sunderland Preview
- Dear Ben Foster
- How to Buy a Player From Spurs: A Primer
- Cantona: Domenech’s the worst coach since Louis XVI
- Manchester United vs Portsmouth: Preview
Tags: News Snippets
October 19th, 2009 at 16:13
…its absurd that anyone gets punished for making post match comment..i foresee couple of touchline bans for Fergie…
October 19th, 2009 at 16:42
It’s not entirely absurd. He deserves to be punished but 5 matches would be harsh. He should not say things like that to the media. If he really was concerned about his weight and fitness(which he wasn’t), then he should filed an official complaint to the FA. What is irritating though is he didn’t point out the great incompetences of referees in the Premiership. Had he been charged for that then that would be absurd since they truly are an incompetent bunch
October 19th, 2009 at 16:54
it’ll take more than 2 weeks for Wiley to shed those extra pounds.
October 19th, 2009 at 17:03
@Jay wire:
Its disgusting how refs think they are immune from criticism, when they people who need to be criticised the most. Fergie called a fat ref unfit. If he called a player unfit, nothing would be made of it by the FA, they wouldnt care. But because its a ref this time, its a no go. Bullshit.
October 19th, 2009 at 17:17
@Dan: I think they are separate issues. Refs maybe incompetent, but that doesn’t mean a manager can make such remarks. If Ferguson gets punished, then I wouldn’t complain, and no one should really. Whether refs are competent or not however is a different matter. They are all professionals and they mustn’t be talked down to. Full stop.
The other issue is accountability, which is a separate matter. That has to be dealt with by the FA/Premier League be it through demoting them or using a points system to assess their decisions. Another solution could be to have a compulsory post-match where the refs are expected to field questions from the media where they can explain their decisions.
Whether you’re competent or not, nothing excuses disrespect IMO.
October 19th, 2009 at 17:20
What is shocking though is the complete lack of support (and hypocrisy) shown by both Jeff Winter and Graham Poll for a fellow referee, when the same set of people called for Fergie’s head for his lack of respect.
October 19th, 2009 at 17:28
To be fair I still think he should have filed an official complaint. He didn’t because he didn’t really think Wiley was unfit. But then again he doesn’t really look that fit come to think of it. But I have to be honest I can’t stand referees in the Premiership they are just too incompetent. We can all laugh at Liverpool but I was quite disgusted by the ridiculous decision making of that ref. Outside interference according to the most basic rules in football means the game has to be immediately stopped and the drop ball played thereafter. The FA like most of its counterparts around the world(esp here in Africa) are just full of rubbish. I don’t know how football is governed but the governance itself needs a total overhaul. Fergie will and should get punished but 5 matches is ridiculous. Two at the most in my opinion. The real issues that should be discussed are the incompetences of the referees as a whole but who should do that. The incompetent bunch at the helm of the FA? The same ppl who came up with the ridiculous and contradictory “Dubious Goals Panel”. A sad state of affairs indeed
October 19th, 2009 at 17:37
i think i speak for everyone when i say that the only answer to stop things like this happening in the future is…. robot refs!
October 19th, 2009 at 17:55
@Red Ranter: It’s because they recognize that Alan Wiley is a fat out of shape muppet who got what he deserved. Now Fergie is also going to get what he deserves because even if he was correct with his remarks, he was wrong for making them. But his crime does not and should not call for a lengthy ban as that is almost to ridiculous to contemplate. He apologized twice, and so give him a a one match ban and a small fine and be done with it. What bugs me is that he probably won’t be on the touchline vs Liverpool.
October 19th, 2009 at 18:06
@Grognard: SAF has two weeks to respond – so any ban will happen after that. Could happen for the Chelski game but, I doubt it will come down even that fast.
I expect a hefty simply because FA are going to use the opportunity since it is SAF. Personally I don’t see any difference in what Wafa did with his eye glass innuendo – it basically called the ref that day blind – SAF did the same – made a reference to the physical capability of Wiley that day. Yet, Wafa gets off with a don’t do it again – SAF will get something ridiculously heavy handed to say a) Look we don’t favor United b) All you others beware cause we aren’t afraid of SAF, we certainly won’t be scared of you.
1 game touchline ban will be border line okay – just to serve as a reminder that as a manager you do need to conduct yourself appropriately but, overall has done little wrong than state his opinion.
October 19th, 2009 at 18:12
I think they’ll wait till 1 Nov before sentencing him. He has thus far been charged not convicted. He has till the 1st of November to appeal so he’ll definitely be there for the Liverpool game just maybe not the Chelsea one
October 19th, 2009 at 23:30
@Grognard- Just in case you didn’t see my response I’ll just copy and paste it here.
October 19th, 2009 at 23:31
@Grognard- I’ll 1st respond to ur Messi arguement because it is the most provocative. How is Messi a better player when both are a 100% fit? Easy. He is a far better dribbler for starters. He is actually more prolific in front of goal. Yes. He is the most unselfish attacker to have played football and he still finds enough time to bang them in. I mean as you correctly pointed out, he doesn’t even take freekicks or penalties but still he got only 4 goals less than Ronaldo in his prime. 38 GOALS. He can still score a freekick mind you though Xavi is the main taker as he did against Atletico Madrid. Now even more astonishing is the assists he came up with. It’s ridiculous. 24 assists. I mean come on. The thing about him is just a sniff at goal and it’s over. He doesn’t need to take a thousand shots like Ronaldo. Every single shot counts with Messi. Even at 50% fitness he ran rings around our defence which was the best at that time at Old Trafford. He completely shattered every team in the Champions League incl us last season. You should have watched the game vs Lyon. He was out of this world. You talk of Ronaldo’s strength in the air. Did you even consider the guy’s height before such a ridiculous comparison. I mean he actually suffered from a growth preventing disease and you expect him to compete in the air with the notably tall Ronaldo. You see Messi doesn’t even need other players to sacrifice for him in terms of their positions etc, he still plays to the highest standard. Yes he can play from the left and thru the middle. You clearly don’t watch Barca games because his versatility is often pointed out as one of his greatest assets. I’ve seen him and Eto’o and Henry switch positions at will the same way he did when Ronaldinho was still there. His international record is still wanting on the stats side but have you looked at the whole story. Like Rooney he went to the 2006 WC still recovering from a long term injury. He hardly played anyway. This time around Argentina decided to put a joker in charge of the team and you expect anything good from that? It’s unfortunate that I’ve supported Barca since 1998 and Argentina since I started walking. I actually watch and follow these teams. You don’t watch Barca as your assessment showed. Esp when you said can he play through the middle and on the left. Oh and btw he is more fleece footed than Ronaldo contrary to what you believe. He has better vision and is far far far more intelligent as a player. And he can even play as an CAM. Can Ronaldo do that? Not a chance. Sorry but your boy Ronaldo has no answer on Messi. Not even a glimpse of a look in. Yes I’m a Barca fan but I’m bigger on United just before some ppl accuse me of certain things. I’m United 1st and foremost but Barca and Juve have always been my 2nd and 3rd teams respectively.
October 20th, 2009 at 0:34
@Jaywire
AND!!! messi is a good TWO years younger than ronnie. Hard to believe actually. I watch every barca game,, all of them, and i agree completely with what you said 100 percent!! messi is simply unbelievable, and no one even comes close. in my opinion ofcourse…
October 20th, 2009 at 0:49
@Red Ranter: Respect should be something earned and not a given entitlement as soon as they put on a black jersey.
We see the refs fuck up so many decisions, it’s hardly surprising that they take flack from both fans and managers alike – and when they step on the field looking like a dough-boy, they should be prey to all their detractors.
SAF will always give them his worst, and the FA have been waiting to pounce on him for ever and a day. He’s already apologized and so the admission of guilt has already been issued.
What remains is how well the FA can embarrass themselves while convening over his fate!!
October 20th, 2009 at 0:59
@Jay wire: Just curious…..
Does that order of preference change at all??
What happens when United play either Barca or Juve? Just how much more do you root for United than you do for Barca or Juve??
Is there any chance you could add another team to your support cartel?, and if so, could they displace someone in the top three??
And finally, when you go to the casino, do you place the same amount of money on “Black” as you do “Red”??
October 20th, 2009 at 1:51
@Redrich – I’ll answer your query in the hope that there’s no sarcasm aimed at me. Anyway I’m United 1st and foremost. I don’t even bother with Barca blogs or Juve ones. I just will not place any other form of secular entertainment above United let alone football clubs. I’ll tell you of three events. Two of them in the treble season. Group game vs Barca. I was absolutely hoping to see Barca being thrashed for their stupid insults on them being a better institution than us. Game ended 3 all back when United feared noone. Then came Juve in the semis. Zidane had destroyed us completely in the 1st leg at OT though we got a last minute equaliser I think through Giggs. My dad was giving me crap over it and we were not on talking terms that week. Then he was on my back again due to bloody Inzaghi in the 2nd leg in Turin. This is a player I adored and he was just being a nuisance with his goals. And thanx to Zidane, his English replica had to miss the final. I was gutted. Finally, I can’t leave out last season. Oh what a disaster. I was furious with a friend of mine a fellow Barca supporter with whom I was watching the match. He knew very well that I’d want United to win at all costs. We were both seriously pumped up for the game since I always used to destroy him on FIFA09 with United. We were battered that day and we almost got to fists because of his constant bursting out of “BARCA, BARCA, BARCA”. Point is I’ll never ever even think twice when we face any other team. It’s a bit more tricky with a Barca vs Juve game but thankfully I haven’t seen one yet. I’d probably pick Barca because of the three they are the most entertaining but most volatile too. And I don’t gamble
October 20th, 2009 at 1:56
@Jay wire: @mike: Its obvious you guys are Messi fans so your understandbly biased. I am a Ronaldo fan so the same bias applies to me as well. Often when comparing players its normal for someone to argue their preferred players merits and highlights the weakness of the other players. so Keep in mind when that im not saying Messi is a poor player by any stretch of the imagination, I just think Ronaldo gone.
Ronaldo is better to me because he is a complete player who can score from anywhere and in anyway(he scored with his penis for crying out loud). He has a better shot than messi, and he can head the ball better than Messi. Now I know you said thats not fair because Messi is a midget, but that only factors more into Ronaldo being better. Physically Ronaldo is bigger faster and stronger than Messi. When it comes to quick little burst of speed then I would give the nod to Messi, but in terms of raw pace Ronaldo is up there with anyone in the world.
I agree that Messi has better vision than Ronaldo, and posibbly better intelligence. and then there is the close control… Messi is on a level all to himself when it comes to close control, Ive never seen a player who can run at full speed with the ball right at his feet. Ronaldo is fast with the ball but he kicks and rushes after the ball. Messi can sprint and dribble simultaneously(if that makes any sense.
Also I think Messi benefits from playing with a fantastic club that suits his style to a “T”. Tim Vickery of the BBC made a great point in explaining why he shines with Barca then seems rather ordinary when playing with argentina. He argues that with Barca Messi is surrounded with “friends and allies” who are all equally talented and technically gifted. So Messi always has options around him and people who can play little 1-2’s with. In argentina he is often left isolated, forcing to make plays etirely on his own. If you look at the bulk of his goals they are a product of great team play and build up(note* Im not trying to paint this as a negative, this is the way football should be played). It is why no one on earth could play his role any better than him, even Ronaldo. But I feel that if you put Messi on virtually any other team, he would struggle to match his performances with Barca.
Ronaldo on the other hand is more versatile, He can play on either wing and as a striker. Many on this very site argued that Ronaldo was only able to score so many goals because our team was set up around him and with out players like rooney or tevex playing so unselfish he wouldnt be the same. I think if you see the start he has made with Madrid he has blown that notion right out of the water. I also fancy him bettering his 42 goal tally, because teams in spain will actually let him play. He wont have to worry as much about players trying to kick him out the game or teams parking the bus.
This is getting way to long so im gonna end with this. I believe Ronaldo is the better player, but I can understand if someone feels otherwise. What I cant understand is how someone tries to argue that Messi is “Miles” better, because that is absurd.
October 20th, 2009 at 1:59
@Jay wire: also just for clarity, are you saying that Ronaldo is a poor free kick taker?
October 20th, 2009 at 2:12
Oh and concerning any other team joining that group. Not a chance. The 1st group which stands high above the others contains United. The other group is Barca and Juve with the former on the top shelf. Then down in the valley you have teams I follow on principle of good football and ambition eg Spurs, Sevilla and Roma. I’m a real student of the game so you must understand. I do admit I’m not as incensed by the likes of Liverpool or Leeds in the way other fans are because I don’t get the real deal of the rivalry like someone from England does. I tried. I can’t stand them though. Esp Arsenal and their misplaced arrogance and Liverpool with their hard headed supporters on TV phone-ins. City are simply a non-entity to me though they’re beginning to really get under my skin with their stupid digs at us. It’s just that some of the hatred and genuine bitterness is something I don’t get. Sometimes I wish I did in order to be the “complete” fan. I don’t even know why I’m mentioning all these things seeing that I risk being labelled at best a plastic fan or glory hunter or at worst be asked in very impolite terms to jump in a mine.
October 20th, 2009 at 2:25
@Johnson- Not necessarily a poor freekick taker but not a great one either. The thing with him is he improves his game all the time and now his freekicks are getting better overall. But he does need an awful lot of attempts to get one in often. The same cannot be said of David Beckham or Juninho or Del Piero etc, who seem to always find the target in many different styles and techniques. Poor he isn’t but not great either in my opinion. And btw Messi is actually a better dribbler in that he gets past a bunch of defenders “cleanly”. To be honest Ronaldo’s dribbling has been dipping in quality and success since 2007. The only thing that Ronaldo is better is in strength and aerial ability and perhaps marginally, pace.
October 20th, 2009 at 2:30
@johnsom33: The reason Ronaldo is the best player, is because he alone can change the outcome of a game!
Not just influence it, but single handedly take a game by the scruff of its neck and stress his will on the result.
There are very few players that can boast this power, but Ronaldo is one of them. His influence on us is plain to see, his influence on Madrid is obvious and without him, the whole Portuguese side would be looking in the mirror, combing their hair and wondering where to play next!!
October 20th, 2009 at 2:35
@Jay wire: where do you rate Ronaldo in the free kick pecking order? He has got to be top 3. Other than Juninho, I dont think there is another player that Keepers fear more than Ronaldo. Others may get it on target more but how often do those balls end up in the keepers hands? The ones Ronaldo does get on target either go in, or are parried away.
October 20th, 2009 at 2:47
Redrich- Those very same attributes apply to Messi as well. In fact if you watched the Bernabeau version of El Clasico when he played through the middle, he single handedly tore Madrid to shreds, you would concur. It was unbelievable yet quite embarrassing. Madrid is a team I can’t stand probably more than any other sporting entity but I felt sorry for them that day. He destroyed them. Another game was vs Lyon. They didn’t know what to do with him. Even coming off the bench he is deadly. I do understand how these things are a matter of opinion but I’m amazed when ppl can actually debate him and Ronaldo. I’d probably argue Ronaldo and Kaka. I sometimes feel maybe ppl don’t actually watch him play and take opinions from the media and stuff. I say that because I’ve noticed how many ppl here only follow the English Premiership in terms of actual game viewing and then they learn of the most notable events and players from Spain and Italy through newspapers and the internet. It’s just my feeling
October 20th, 2009 at 2:57
@Johnson33- I’d have Xavi, Del Piero,Beckham and Wesley Sneidjer ahead of him. The thing about these players is they are not always trying to get the ball in the net all the time even with impossible angles and distances. They play the ball in to be finished off by others if they have assessed that as the best option. Ronaldo a 100% of the time is trying to score himself. His freekick is unique though and quite reminiscent of Roberto Carlos but also mostly one dimensional. But it’s quite effective when on target but the same can be said of the rest of the players I’ve mentioned.
October 20th, 2009 at 3:06
Mind you I’m not saying Ronaldo is a bad freekick taker. He used to be, I can admit that he has improved but is still not among my great dead ball experts. And for everyone else who might think I’m just bashing Ronaldo, I’m not. At least not now. And when I actually do it has more to with his personality and not his football(which I do criticise in some things). Overall I think he is the 2nd best player as will be confirmed in December which is not that bad is it
October 20th, 2009 at 3:28
@Jay wire: “Overall I think he is the 2nd best player as will be confirmed in December which is not that bad is it”
So by that reasoning, currently Messi is confirmed the 2nd best player until December.
you also forget that Ronaldo was handicapped this past season because of his surgery before the season. Messi had the better season last year, that im not arguing. but the Ballon D’or doesnt close the book on the debate, otherwise it would have been closed last year.
October 20th, 2009 at 3:56
@johnsom33: It could also be argued that Messi had an injury free season for the first time last year.
Either case I do not intend to get into the debate over who the better player is. I think it’s not supposed to be a debate because there is no right nor wrong answer to the question of who of Ronaldo and Messi is the better player. So I will leave it at that.
Jay Wire — you have a completely warped concept of selfishness. I think you are way off the mark in your opinion of the importance of selfishness. I’m not saying it’s a wrong way of looking at it, but I have a diametrically opposing view and to convince you otherwise will take a lot more effort than I’m willing to expend right now. Just let me say that most great strikers are great because they are selfish and had the right mix of creation for others as well as scoring for themselves. Ronaldo found the right mix of both in my view. Also a selfish Ronaldo was much more valuable to our over all fluid attack than a selfish Ruud. RvN made our attack a little static and it was obvious to Fergie when he chose Saha over him in the Carling Cup final against Wigan. Anyway, I’m not going to argue about this further. Over and out.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:43
@Jay wire: Go back to the previous thread for my response mate.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:47
@johnsom33: Personally there is no one better at free kicks than Ronaldo other than Riquelme and his skills are dwindling due to age.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:49
@Jay wire: The best American girls college team could have ripped holes through that Madrid defense on that day. Did you really watch that game? If you did you would have noticed how awful Madrid was and how unwilling to get down and dirty they were as they continually lagged and gave Barca space with the ball. I’d rather bring up the example of how useless Messi was in both semifinal games against Chelsea and how useless he was the year before in the same semi finals against united. If you put a pest and a physical defender on him, he vanishes like Houdini.
October 20th, 2009 at 6:52
@Jay wire: You are bashing him mate, you just don’t realize it. Your lack of respect and admiration for him is rather obvious. Also your pro Barca and pro Messi leanings are quite evident too. But that’s ok, you are entitled. Just don’t expect many on this site to buy into your argument because frankly, it’s weak. I’m not trying to be rude, I’m just stating what I feel to be true.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:34
How anyone can criticise ronaldos free kicks, i dont know. He has literally redefined how they are taking. Thats legendary stuff.
October 20th, 2009 at 7:49
@Grognard: ON RONALDO V/s MESSI ISSUE
I have been going through this Ronaldo-Messi debate for last couple of days. I am fascinated by the way you all are putting in your point. So, I would like to add my one bit….
As far as most of pro Ronaldo people are concerned I will have to say that one point they are repeating frequently is his Ariel ability and strength is much better than Messi’s which by the way I agree with. But, this I feel something would not be the parameter for for a very obvious that the overall physique that Messi has is due to something that we all know. So I don’t think that discount Messi one bit.
As far as footballing skill is concerned I would have to agree with Jay wire. In terms of overall team play I think Messi is better than Ronaldo. His dribbling skills are definitely better than Ronaldo. But, I have to say one thing that Ronaldo’s drive while running with ball is much fierce compared to that of Messi. We just can’t compare the ariel ability as have said before. Every thing said I think it would be criminal to choose between the classiest and most effective players in this world at this point in time. My point is simple both of them have there own set of skill level and both give us the reason to see football i.e. sheer joy. So, take them the way they are don’t compare the gods of football.
But, if I want any one of these two to be a part of my team then I will definitely go for Ronaldo for just one reason which makes him better than Messi and for that matter any other player in this world i.e. his ability to take the game by scruff of the neck and make something out of nothing.
I always felt that when Ronaldo is in your team even in worst nightmare you will not see that your team is loosing. And I think that sumws up my thought on the issue…
October 20th, 2009 at 9:50
@Grognard- As is already evident there are a lot of ppl here who actually agree with my side of the story. 2ndly, my arguement is weak because of…..? You can come up with all sorts of excuses as to why he ripped apart Madrid, both legs, their neighbours, Lyon, United and every other team that dared to show up for the match against Barca. It’s like saying Ronaldo was fortunate that Arsenal were just not good enough in the semis and that’s why he could rip them apart. He didn’t show up for the semis against Chelsea (who always play anti football at this stage) but neither did Ronaldo in the final. Oh and of course he didn’t show up in the previous season’s semis against us. The same semis in which we parked 5 buses in the Nou Camp. And the same where he played coming from a long injury lay off and was not even fit for the Old Trafford fixture. But he still found time to run rings around our whole defence and give us real scares. He was by far the best player on that pitch at 50% fitness. In the final none of our players could even touch him. I remember Carrick desperately trying to foul him and he couldn’t even commit that crime. He was quite literally untouchable. You say if he is stuck to like glue he fades. Not entirely true. I can only point to the Stamford Bridge match throughout the whole of last season. And we won’t even start on Ronaldo disappearing in games if you assign even Pantsil to mark him out. In fact in one game he struggled against Reo Cocker a make shift left back. This whole debate is about opinions I suppose though I think if you were to conduct a poll with strictly neutrals then Messi would win hands down. So maybe each to his own. While I’m at it I’d just want to clarify that I actually don’t blame Ronaldo for being incredibly selfish or other things. The manager actually allowed it. Some criticise him for not tracking back but Rooney revealed in his latest interview that they had to cover for him defensively so that he could be free to only take offensive duties. It was clearly an instruction from the manager and his coaching staff not Sir Ronaldo. But it actually did hinder the other players in that so often Rooney and Tevez were accused of not taking their offensive duties seriously. But they are not Octopuses, they had to double up defensively and for that I blame management. That’s all
October 20th, 2009 at 12:33
I dont think that many here disagree that Fergie was foolish to criticise Wiley in what came across as a personal attack. I’d envisage a 2 match ban and a fine, although going on past record between the FA and United, dont be too suprised if he gets 4! & a hefty fine. Same old, same old as far as the FA is concerned
October 20th, 2009 at 12:44
@Grognard- I really wanted to drop this Messi arguement as I found it an insult to his talent to compare him with Ronaldo. But now you go on to say that Messi is useless with his weaker foot which you didn’t even specify since you can’t tell which one it is. It’s because he is fleece footed. How can you say you watch Barca games and not see that. Ronaldo does have a stronger shot and is definitely a real threat from any distance. That’s a big plus for him. But it is correctly statistically that Messi is more prolific and is a better finisher. It also factual that he is a more creative player and stats support that. You say he benefits from his creative teammates who set up easy goals for him. Once again not true. The complete opposite is true. He creates so many easy opportunities for his teammates it’s unbelievable that he still is their main source of goals. I mean how can someone come up with 24 assists in one season and still score 38 of his own. That means he was DIRECTLY involved in 62 GOALS. For a player that doesn’t take freekicks or penalties and by his assists exploits it is evident that he doesn’t take too many shots during a game. So how can you even be suprised that he is more prolific? How many assists does Mr Ronaldo have? How many shots does he take before he actually scores? You’re fooling yourself. A more creative player, more intelligent, more prolific, a better dribbler, better ball control, better team player, better defensively. What more do you want from him? You keep claiming he fades during games. How many games apart from the Chelsea away game during the whole of last season did he not “show up”? Just name one. Just one. And for each one you name I’ll name two in which Ronaldo didn’t show up. I promise. And you say my arguements are weak. Can you still honestly claim Ronaldo is a better scorer or more creative? I’d like to hear your facts to support that. Next time try not to just rubbish my arguements without really considering them.
October 20th, 2009 at 13:27
@Jay wire: I think what you said is correct mate. On sheer footballing talent without taking into consideration the strength and height and other things into consideration he is definitely better than any one on this earth.
But, like you also said it is time to drop this argument as we are not only insulting both of there talent (like you said about Messi). See, they are the greats of the game today. One won the Ballon D’or last term the other one is most likely going to win it this year. Both are real gem of a talent. So, why compare. Just sit back Njoy and ADMIRE what they do with Football when they are playing….
I think that is the real way of behaving with the talent and show them the due respect for there abilities, talent and achievement…
So whats say mate….
October 20th, 2009 at 14:54
@Jay wire:
No offense but, I stopped reading there…
October 20th, 2009 at 15:18
None taken. Just wondering why you had to tell me that
October 20th, 2009 at 15:35
Jay Wire — North American or European, go to guy is someone you look to to bail you out of sticky spots; someone that pops in to score the crucial goals. So when someone says go to guy in football the first thought that pops into my mind is not a creator but a goal scorer, ie, in our case Ronaldo. There’s nothing North American about it – it’s rather universal in my opinion.
October 20th, 2009 at 15:45
Ronaldo v. Messi for European Football Of the Year. The other nominees were picked so as to make the loudest standing ovation once the winner is chosen. I think Ronaldo has these first months been better than Messi especially for the national team. Messi could not lift Argentina to qualify and played a minute role in their eventual qualification while Ronaldo is the captain of Portugal and set up a goal before going off injured.
Of course, the Champions League final will be heavily weighted in determining the winner and that is where I see Messi pull in front. As much as I find him inferior to Ronaldo in terms of adaptability (set pieces, aerial threat, and strength) , I cannot see past him winning the EFY merely due to the CL final.
Omit the CL final and Ronaldo will win the title again hands down.
October 20th, 2009 at 15:46
Also both Grognard and you have been exaggerating Ronaldo and Messi’s skills and concluding that one doesn’t hold a candle to an other. In my mind, both hold candles to each other quite well. It’s not like comparing Tim Burton’s to Nolan’s. That’s an insult. I would say it’s more like comparing one legendary movie to another (like the Godfather to say a Kurosawa classic)
Both players have shown to be clutch players in the big games — I’ve seen Ronaldo own Chelsea in the CL final in the first half as I’ve seen Messi own Real Madrid in many El Clasicos. Let’s not lose sight of the greatness of both players in our mission to prove one over the other. It’s pointless and insulting to each other.
October 20th, 2009 at 15:47
FERGIE BANNED FOR LIFE!
LINK…just kidding…
October 20th, 2009 at 15:48
@[OPTI]Madschester United: Overall Messi had a better season for Barca than Ronaldo for United. You could say Ronaldo was injured, but Messi was injury-prone the seasons prior.
October 20th, 2009 at 17:02
@Jay wire: Dude where are you getting these 24 assists from… I’m really not able to find it anywhere…
Stats say Messi got 18 assists in 08-09 season.
You have been raving about Messi’s creativity. So lets see head-to-head stats(Assists):
Messi Ronaldo
04-05 0 4
05-06 4 7
06-07 3 20
07-08 13 8
08-09 18 9
——————
Total 38 48
October 20th, 2009 at 17:41
@Red Ranter: thats what i was trying to say. when comparing two players the debaters make it seem like there realy is no argument to be had. ROnaldo and Messi are by far the two best players in the world, and its ridiculous to claim one is nowhere close to the other.
October 20th, 2009 at 18:41
@AndyCR7: Its funny how messi finished above Ronaldo in the wpoty standings 06-07 despite having infiorer stats. That year ronaldos was still suffering from world cup backlash.
October 20th, 2009 at 18:55
@Onkar: I cannot disagree with too much there mate but I do disagree with your view on aerial ability. The fact that Messi is a midgit is not my problem. He is and never will be as great as Ronaldo at heading a ball with pace and accuracy and with the added skill of being able to dive like a torpedo at a ball and head it as well. I have never seen Messi do that.
Finally let me come out of the closet here and declare myself a huge Lio Messi fan. I love the way he plays and he truly is a god to watch. And yes you are right, should we comparing gods? NO. But I still cannot help myself because I do believe without a question of doubt that Ronaldo is the more complete player. Your point about his drive when dribbling is truly a fierce and intimidating factor in what makes him better overall. Messi is just so delicate that a stiff wind could blow him over. The fact he disappears against teams who have players who can rough him up or defend him says everything about why Ronaldo is superior to me. And yet the greatest goal I have seen since Maradona miracle goal against England was scored by Messi two years ago vs Getafe and was almost a carbon copy. How can I deny the players incredible skills? I don’t.
Messi is a god, but where he might be the God Apollo, Ronaldo is Zeus. And according to my Greek mythology, Zeus was the superior god of them all. He’s just a greater physical specimen and a more complete and intimidating force on the pitch. Messi is the greater playmaker and creator for others, but Ronaldo can create for himself goal scoring opportunities that defy belief. And i’m sorry but his ability to redefine the way free kicks are taken has lofted him into another dimension there too. His style of free kick has never been tried before he took up the art. Hell, Messi doesn’t even take free kicks for Barca because the team has four or five players who are better at the art than him. Even his penalty taking has Berbatov written all over it. He likes to place his shots rather than bury them with force. In fact all of Messi’s shots are guided and placed which is beautiful and all finesse like, but to hit a ball from 30 yards out with force and swerve and score for me takes a lot more skill. Still, Messi is a treat to the eyes, but Ronaldo is a feast.
October 20th, 2009 at 19:01
@Jay wire: You know mate, this has gone from being a debate to an argument and your attempt to somehow try to make a fool of me. Instead you have done nothing but make yourself look small and petty. Most of the people on here disagree with you yet you have found it the other way. Personally, I don’t care anymore. This debate/argument is not worth creating bad blood and animosity between the two of us. You have your belief and I have mine. You have your bias and I have mine. Lets just leave it at that because frankly, I am tired of this pissing match because unlike you, I defend my argument with facts where you just belittle what i have to say and then offer up nonsense to verify your position. That’s fine, be that way, I have just had enough of it and as of now, the Ronaldo vs Messi debate is dead. It was really never much of a contest anyway as far as I am concerned. Both players are gods but Ronaldo has more tools in his toolbox and that my friend is a plain fact. Thus endeth the discussion.
October 20th, 2009 at 19:02
Messi will cake-walk the ballon d’or because of last year’s performances (and fair play).I still think that Ronaldo is the better overall player by a cat’s whisker, it’s just he’s done it in the Premier League which is still a disadvantage to foreign voters.
October 20th, 2009 at 19:08
@Phoenix Red: I believe Fergie was very foolish to attack Wiley because by now you would think he would know that the FA does not tolerate any criticism of it’s officials. So other than deflecting the criticism for the poor performance vs Sunderland, he accomplished nothing but hurt his team with a future ban. This kind of thing was fine when he had a Roy Keane on the pitch to be a general and a Carlos Queiroz as #2 but now he is going to be upstairs while Mike Phelan is in charge down below. Not a smart move whatsoever and I really fail to see how this act of stupidity on his part will help us during his ban and even after. No referee will ever look at him with respect and he might have caused them to all band against United due to his disrespect of Wiley. And what of Wiley himself? Will he ever call a fair game involving United again or will he be bent on sticking it to Fergie?
Making enemies of the officials is not a tried and true proven way to guarantee success in this game. This was a massive mistake on Fergie’s part and I am still trying to understand what the Hell he was thinking? If I was him and I truly believed that Wiley was overweight and out of shape, I do not try to humiliate the man through the media. I write a purposeful letter and address it to the head of officials at the FA. Clean, professional and to the point and something that is done behind closed doors and does not publicly humiliate the man as well as the FA.
October 20th, 2009 at 19:09
@Johnsom33: I didn’t really wanna compare the two players, these two players are the best in the world. But, when people say thigs like “comparing Roanldo’s skill to Messi’s is like an insult to Messi”, it gets ridiculous…
October 20th, 2009 at 19:12
@Jay wire: “I found it an insult to his talent to compare him with Ronaldo” You have got to be kidding.
I have been on this blog for near three years now and that without a doubt has to be the stupidist and most idiotic thing I have ever read from a fellow poster. And to think that I wasted my time debating with a man so filled with bias and bitterness, that he cannot see two feet in front of him because of the delusional fog that has affected his brain and common sense. I may not have agreed with you mate but that comment just made me lose all respect for you to. 
October 20th, 2009 at 19:17
@AndyCR7: Wasn’t that just the most ridiculous statement ever?
What gets me is that he compares the two like one Messi is a god and Ronaldo is Fred Flinstone. I at least was able to concede certain things to Messi and praise him for his many skills and call it a close race, but Jay Wire is completely hay wire with his thought process at it positively stinks with bias and bitterness. I seriously doubt he would be saying these things about Ronaldo had Ronaldo stayed with Man Utd. What bitterness.
October 20th, 2009 at 19:17
@Jay wire: Possibly because what you wrote bordered on complete lunacy.
October 20th, 2009 at 19:20
@Red Ranter: Well said mate but the fact remains is that it is a North American saying. It’s used in all the sports here by the media and sports announcers as well as the fans. Can you recall it ever being used in British football? I certainly can’t. And I do not know of any other english speaking continent where it is used other than the US and Canada.
October 20th, 2009 at 19:27
@[OPTI]Madschester United: Messi will easily win the award because for the entire year he was the best player and the most consistent. He was on the best team that won it all and his goal tally was impressive. Ronaldo ended with a flurry but his first half of last season was destroyed due to injuries and his struggle to find his form and fitness. Once he found it though he was as good if not better than Messi as he single handedly lifted United to win after win it seemed at times. But it was to little too late and so the award this season goes to Messi and I congratulate him ahead of time. A truly magnificent player. Let him enjoy his moment because come next season, Ronaldo will win back the award should he return from his injury and not get injured again. His goal tally and skill already has paid dividends for Madrid. Lets see who performs the best between the two at the World Cup. Portugal should get there and if they do, I think Ronaldo will have something to prove. Messi on the other hand is invisible on Argentina and both he and Aguero seem to be in Maradona’s doghouse. 2009/10 will be the year of Ronaldo.
October 20th, 2009 at 19:29
@Grognard: In England, we(I maybe wrong??) refer to a go-to-player only as a Mr. Stevie G who happens to play for Scouse Tw@ts.
October 20th, 2009 at 19:32
@Red Ranter: I never ever said that about Messi. I have praised him for his skills and compared him very favorably to Ronaldo but I find Ronaldo the better player. I gave the reasons and broke down the skill sets and showed where each player is better so I fail to understand your criticism about my argument. Once again I debate by putting all my cards on the table and making a clear and concise case for my argument only for others to simplify things by not reading my comments fully. I have nothing but praise for Messi and consider him the second best player on the planet. But it is no crime and I certainly do not think I am wrong by making the valid argument that Ronaldo is the better player. Unlike my opponent, I backed it up with hard evidence, not emotional rants that offered silly and unfounded arguments that were based on nothing more than personal bias and a whole lot of bitterness.
I find it a little insulting mate that my efforts are belittled this way. I do not enter a debate unless I feel I have a case or the ammunition to win it. Therefore you won’t see me debate on anything regarding French football or what’s happening in Brazil these days. So I think that my arguments were well thought out and had plenty of hard evidence to make my case.
October 20th, 2009 at 19:38
@AndyCR7: This was one of my major arguments. Although I feel Messi is more creative than Ronaldo, my opponent in this debate seems to think Ronaldo is incapable of stringing a successful pass to anyone. On the contrary, Ronaldo may be selfish, but he is also capable of making great plays and setting up others with great passes and superior vision. It’s his prolific goal scoring that blinds many of the fact that he also set up a lot of goals for United. And those statistics are a good show of how great Ronaldo is at play making but they do not tell the whole story for Mssi though. Lets not forget that Messi has missed an awful lot of games before last season due to injury.
October 20th, 2009 at 19:49
@Grognard: I haven’t belittled anything you said. But I honestly feel that whilst you brought valid points to the table you also got carried away in your attempts to prove Ronaldo is the better player. It’s not a slight on you. Most people get carried away at some point or the other. And it’s alright, because a lot of people tend to highlight the contrast in order to draw a distinction. It’s a classic skill used in debating. All I was doing is, just pointing it out.
It’s not like I labeled what you said is the “stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.” That would feel more insulting than anything I’ve said. And you know I’ve never said something like that to you nor anyone here ever.
October 20th, 2009 at 20:05
@Grognard: Messi might have missed many games. But, those stats are not for proving that “Messi is not creative”. These stats prove that Ronaldo is also/can also be as creative… I still think Messi is more creative but, it’s not a point for Messi supporters to rave about.
October 20th, 2009 at 20:05
@Grognard: I’ve actually heard go-to-guy (phrased more like go-to-person/player) in the British media. But anyone with no prior knowledge of this phrase, would still come to the same conclusion
October 20th, 2009 at 20:32
@grognard I’didn’t mean to take the “piss” about your comment regarding the “go-to-guy” comments you made. I was being sarcastic but not directly about the phrase you made, because as RR stated it’s not an everyday “British” phrase. I was directing my vitriol against Liverpool, a cheap shot I know,(sometimes necessary) so if there is a misunderstanding it wasn’t intentional nor personal. Apologies if it sounded that way.
October 20th, 2009 at 21:37
KRAP-Keep rafa at pool
October 20th, 2009 at 21:43
lol liverpool lost, i hope we dont make them look good again we have a habit of making crappy teams look like gods
October 20th, 2009 at 21:47
@Dan:
October 20th, 2009 at 21:47
My Liverpool mate is practically crying here…
Me, Im just sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo fired up for Sunday!!! 
October 20th, 2009 at 21:51
@Dan: I really love Fachtman, gonna dress up like him at the Halloween party.
Eat lots of candy, wear a tux, grow a goatee beard and move around like a waitor with some plates on your arms! 
This is what my mate predicts will be the Scousers team on Sunday.
Reina
Johnson Carragher Skrtl Insua
Kuyt Lucas Mascherano Benayoun
Voronin Ngog
If we cant beat that team, then…
October 20th, 2009 at 21:53
@ Grognards
Grognard, Jaywire asked a question and i want to know too. im not attacking you or anything like that. But you said messi disappears in games, and accoriding to you , you always base your arguments on facts. So tell us what games hes disappeared in other than the chelsea game?
October 20th, 2009 at 22:00
Yeah we need to crush Liverpool on Sunday. They are staggering right now and if we go to anfield and repay them for the asswhooping they gave us.
October 20th, 2009 at 22:09
Ronaldo and Messi are very different players. Its like comparing Zidane to Keane! Okey, that may be a much bigger difference in play, but its kinda like that. While Ronaldo bases his play on power and speed, Messi bases his on tecnique and team-play. They are different player, and while Messi may have the better close-control Ronaldo is still equally good at getting away from his marker, just in a less elegant way. In my opinion Ronaldo is better than Messi, for many different reasons. Messi has had the best season, and the best year, but all in all Ronaldo is the better football player. And you know what else? He was ours…
October 20th, 2009 at 22:47
Forget Messi v Ronaldo. Neither player belongs to us. None of our players will even be in contention for that award. Rooney is world class for England but for us he doesn’t score enough, has zero chemistry with Berbatov, and in Europe our system means he just fades completely. Our defenders have looked dodgy ever since the Liverpool game last season. Giggs is the only world class midfielder we have and at his age I do not think he can keep playing at that level week in and week out. The rest of our team is just mediocre.
It won’t cost us in the league because everyone else seems to be in self-destruct mode and all the English teams are on the decline, as the balance of power shifts to Spain.
But in Europe Fergie’s scaredy cat tactics will not work because you get very few chances in Europe and all our strikers need five chances to score a goal, and now Ronaldo is gone we do not have any matchwinners who can win games through moments of genius.
October 20th, 2009 at 23:12
Dan — I’m almost inspired to initiate a petition titled KRAP.
October 20th, 2009 at 23:14
@Footy4Eddy: Aren’t Torres/Gerrard supposed to return?
October 20th, 2009 at 23:45
@Footy4Eddy: i guess the ronaldo v messi debate ranks higher than the fact that pool and barca loose while inter and le arse draw their opponents.
seeing off cska tomorrow could go a long way towards building our team confidence… unexpectedly
October 21st, 2009 at 0:23
Tomorrow’s game could be quite scary. No Rooney, Giggs, Fletcher, Evra or Park and possibly no Berbatov or Vidic.
Could be a Carling Cup line up for us, hang on to your seats guys, it may be a horror show!!
October 21st, 2009 at 0:26
@Red Ranter: Better to keep Gillette and Hicks IMO.
October 21st, 2009 at 0:34
@Redrich:
YIKES!
October 21st, 2009 at 0:48
@Redrich: I couldn’t care less about tomorrow’s result to be honest. We can always get the job done to go through the group stage. My eyes are already trained on the weekend.
October 21st, 2009 at 0:56
@Red Ranter: You may be right, but I never like to count my chickens, mate!
A good showing by the reserves would certainly be encouraging though!!
October 21st, 2009 at 1:00
@Redrich: I like to speculatively count my chickens. I guess 99/100 times we should qualify from this group.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:02
@Red Ranter: A win at Anfield may put a premature end to the KRAP campaign.
Rafa will be under intense pressure, if they loose again, and I’m sure SAF is just dying to apply it!!
This will be a tremendous side show to the game itself, and I just can’t wait to watch this spectacle unravel.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:05
@Red Ranter: I couldn’t care less about tomorrow. Anything we get out of playing our reserves on that stupid plastic pitch is a bonus. I’d rather get the team prepared for Liverpool away on Sunday. We’ve already got 6 points in the Champs League, win our other 2 home games and we’re through. Stuff Moscow, killing of Liverpool’s season in OCTOBER is worth playing the reserves in their trainers…..
October 21st, 2009 at 1:10
@Redrich: I hope we win. The problem with Liverpool being written off left-right-centre, as is being done already right now, is it serves to galvanise them. They would do fuck-all before and after playing us, but will be fired up enough during the game to do us in.
After all they beat us last time without Torres and Gerrard. I hope we don’t repeat our trend of starting the match with all guns blazing and then all of a sudden sitting on our backsides letting the opposition dominate us. I’ve seen us do this a lot against big four opposition (and especially some sides this season)
October 21st, 2009 at 1:11
@Grognard- I think you’re just being unnecessarily paranoid. Just because I strongly disagree with you doesn’t mean I’m being petty. Nor does it mean I’m trying to make a fool of you. What’s wrong with you? No honestly. You always have to attack the person when someone persistently disagrees with you. You are actually the one who was trying to make a fool of me. I’ve not attacked you, I just supported my opinions with facts. Something you didn’t do as often. I showed him to be more prolific and you couldn’t answer to it. I showed him to be more creative and you had no answer to that either. Or when I asked you to name any game in which he faded. And you failed. I just argued with facts and you have to go on and say I’m trying to make you look foolish. How? By inserting stats with my arguements? What animosity are you talking about? Because none was coming from my side that’s for sure.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:12
@Red Ranter: Bold indeed. You wont mind if I hold you to that in the event of team malfunction.
Finishing as runners-up in the group would put us behind the 8 ball as far as the knock-out staged are concerned, so winning tomorrow and then the group itself, would be of concern to me!
October 21st, 2009 at 1:14
@Redrich: You can hold me to it. I think we will win the group.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:17
@RedRanter- By your definition of go to guy it’s simply another way of saying “striker”. So who is the go to guy at a club like Barca?
October 21st, 2009 at 1:20
@Traverse: We don’t have a choice but to play the reserves, everyone is apparently injured!
October 21st, 2009 at 1:35
Anybody else think that Carragher looks poor this season. To me he clearly seems to have lost an edge and half a step.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:38
@Redrich: It’s a ruse. Rooney possibly, but only to make sure he is 100% for the dippers. Giggs and Fletcher are being rested, so there is no point in bringing them all the way out to Moscow. They will both start on Sunday. Also, don’t be surprised if we start Owen and Berbatov at Anfield with Rooney on the bench.
October 21st, 2009 at 1:44
@Red Ranter: They did it against Bolton too, and almost paid the price.
You would think that with enough veterans on the team they would have the maturity to play the full 90 mins, but it is apparent that this current squad lacks a true leader!!
I do think, though, that SAF will want to win this one, BIG TIME, and he may well bully the team into victory.
I’ll take take it anyway it comes!!
October 21st, 2009 at 1:48
@Traverse: I hope you’re right, mate.
I agree with you about Owen starting. The filth have looked very square at the back and if he can beat their OS trap, I think he’s in for a couple!!
October 21st, 2009 at 2:05
@Redrich: He’s already said in an interview he would celebrate like any other goal… I hope he fucking scores.
October 21st, 2009 at 2:14
@Traverse: This is yet another side note to this game.
If he does, and then kisses the emblem in front of the Kop, I will literally adopt him as my own!!
October 21st, 2009 at 3:36
@Jay wire: Not really. Ronaldo redefined that. He was a winger who scored a ridiculously large number of goals. For Liverpool it is Torres and Gerrard — both scored a ton of crucial goals to bail them out. For Chelsea it’s mostly been Drogba and Lampard to a lesser extent.
Barcelona have never really relied on one player as such. They have several go to guys — Messi, Eto’o, Xavi, Iniesta even Dani Alves. But it all has to do with players who deliver in the crunch situations with goals. Your definition of a go to guy is a creator. Mine is of a goal scorer expected to bail the side out when most things go wrong. Ronaldo has done it for us. Gerrard/Torres have done it repeatedly for Liverpool plenty of times.
October 21st, 2009 at 6:56
My definition is a creative goal scorer. And I said that from the beginning. All my examples are players who score and create at the same time. Not just that, but the guy you would “go to” when ideas have run out. The Urban Dictionary defines a go to guy as “someone who can solve a difficult situation or problem another person is facing”. That’s what I’m kinda getting at. Perhaps the Zidane analogy/illustration I made earlier explained what I meant. I don’t mean he shouldn’t score, that’s one of the main requirements, but he should also create in the final third. His job is to make sure somehow the ball gets in the net either thru him or by finding and “putting” someone in the right position. He more often than not bails you out of sticky situations. Right now I’d point out Ryan Giggs as our man for that. But I’m of the opinion that Berbatov should be that man as I have been pointing out in many of my previous posts.
October 21st, 2009 at 7:40
@Grognard: jay wire is completely hay wire
October 21st, 2009 at 7:43
@Red Ranter: But how did I get carried away? Did I proclaim Ronaldo so much better than Messi? Did I make this ludicrous statement “I really wanted to drop this Messi arguement as I found it an insult to his talent to compare him with Ronaldo.”? I think I was very reasonable and quite complimentary of Messi but was able to point out his shortcomings while making a very strong case for Ronaldo. I’m not accusing you of belittling me but I not understand your reference to me “getting carried away”.
October 21st, 2009 at 7:45
@AndyCR7: In that case we are in total agreement. Like i said earlier, Ronaldo great goal scoring exploits were so godly that his super play making abilities were often overshadowed and forgotten by many. But not by me.
October 21st, 2009 at 7:46
@Cyclops-Red: Not a problem mate. Anything nasty that is directed at Liverpool has my blessing.
October 21st, 2009 at 7:49
@mike: Both games against United in the 07/08 semi finals for starters. Actually there are many games, especially in the CL and for Argentina so I cannot mention them all. How about the last 6 games he has played for his country. I have seen those games and he has been invisible. Why? Because he does not like it when games get physical. When you give him room to move around he is dynamic but put a man on him who roughs him up a bit and he disappears in a hole like a scared rabbit.
October 21st, 2009 at 7:59
@Jay wire: Mate, I’m not attacking you. You started on this crusade by belittling my opinions and I just stood up for them. The truth here is you can’t stand to lose a debate which you did hands down. Why do I say this, because it’s the truth. You failed to counter my strong case for Ronaldo by inventing imaginary differences and concocting lies about him and about Messi to make Messi seem better. Take a poll and ask all on here who is best in the 12 ket skills and you will see that Messi wins in only two of them. dribbling, finesse. I am not even willing to concede the creativity bit because I have seen creative genius come from Ronaldo like his superb back heel goal, his unique free kicks and moves one on one. Instead you lowered yourself to desperation when you claimed it was an insult to Messi to compare his talent with Ronaldo. Right there you made yourself look like an ass to everyone on here. I on the other hand praised Messi but made my case for Ronaldo. Quite often when somebody cleans somebody else’s clock in a debate he is accused of being mean spirited or trying to attack you personally. No mate, I was attacking your argument, not you. If you cannot see that, I cannot help you. Now take your loss like a man and move on. Honestly, the crap I take for being right.
Remember, “it’s only hubris if I’m wrong” Julius Caesar. 
October 21st, 2009 at 8:02
@Red Ranter: I tried telling him that but even when he is wrong, he won’t admit to it. You see RR, 99% of the world agrees with you on me on the “go to guy” argument. But Jay Wire still believes he is right. Go figure!
October 21st, 2009 at 8:05
@Jay wire: van Nistelrooy was not creative but he scored over 30 goals a season and was without a shadow of a doubt United’s go to guy when he was here. Why does a player need to be creative if he just scores for fun? Being creative has nothing to do with being the guy a team counts on to snatch a goal for them and prevent a loss or extracts a last minute win from what looked like a certain draw. There are usually many creators on a good team but there is usually only one perhaps two go to guys who can actually finish by being clutch and scoring goals under pressure.
October 21st, 2009 at 8:06
@spizzy: More like stubborn to the point of nauseam.
October 21st, 2009 at 8:16
I think jay wire had a very legitimate argument, and he put his point across very well until the point he said he found it an insult comparing the two. Belittling someone’s arguments to ridiculous proportions is ok,and is actually a technique people use to win arguments but that statement right there showed he was clearly biased and wasn’t making his statements with an open and level-headed mind.
Ronaldo was prone to disappearing on big matches, but not recently, in fact he was the only united player to show up in the final. Messi didn’t really do anything spectacular against united, I think the man who destroyed us was iniesta, not messi.
Messi also plays in a very good team, filled with alot of quality, so while teams playing barca are faced with the problem of who to mark because any of their players can hurt you, ronaldo played for a team where if he alone was marked, the team was dead.
When messi is marked out he disappears, but since that in no way guarantees success it rarely happens, because even if you marked out messi, there are a bucket load of players in that team who can hurt you. But ronaldo was the sole life for united, mark him out and united are done, so he was always being marked , but that din’t stop him and he still produced.
October 21st, 2009 at 11:54
@Spizzy & Grognard- To be honest that’s how I actually feel when it comes to the player. I think he is superior and I’m not being clouded with any emotions or anything. I really do feel that a more creative player, a more prolific, more intelligent, more precise and better team player and better defensively can’t be compared. I’d feel the same way even if Ronaldo had the same personality as Giggs. Nothing to do with liking or not liking him. However I apologise for putting that statement out about it being an insult. It wasn’t necessary and I humbly take it back. Seriously. Now I’ve made my case and supported where necessary with stats and facts. All have admitted he is a “cleaner” dribbler, more creative, better team player, more intelligent and every form of stats and facts point to the fact that he is a better goal getter. He has ALWAYS been known as a big game specialist contrary to what is being claimed. I have conceded that Ronaldo is better in the air, stronger and marginally faster and maybe better at set pieces. I just didn’t see that as what makes me to have lost the debate “hands down”. If my facts and stats are out of context then maybe I’m wrong. But then again apologies to all for that statement.
October 21st, 2009 at 12:17
hell.. Ronaldo is better than Messi..
Ronaldo > Messi : in pace
Ronaldo > Messi : in strength
Ronaldo > Messi : in stamina
Ronaldo > Messi : in goals scored
Ronaldo > Messi : in aggression
Ronaldo > Messi : in dribble speed
Messi > Ronaldo : in dribble accuracy
Messi > Ronaldo : in passing
Ronaldo > Messi : in Headers
Ronaldo > Messi : in flair
Ronaldo > Messi : in showboating
In Short, RONALDO >>> MESSI!
October 21st, 2009 at 12:21
still ZIDANE > Ronaldo
October 21st, 2009 at 13:02
I disagree with your assessment on flair, on dribbling speed, goal scoring, and you didn’t add creativity and intelligence or team play or defensive duties. I mean without taking freekicks and penalties and tracking back constantly and playing less games and taking significantly less shots, he scores more. Check the stats if you so wish. Things like goals per game ratio, shots to goal ratio. Tim Vickery will happily let you know of the great work he puts defensively. He rarely loses possession and in full flight he is simply untouchable. There’s sometimes no solution to marking him even trying to deliberately foul him. But I’ve just realised that this whole thing is really heavily pinned on personal opinion and is a debate which can go on forever. And hinder everyone from realising we have a game tonight,today or this morning depending on where you’re from. Better discussions like do we all have confidence in our tactics or who should become our 1st choice central midfield pair. I think those are more relevant discussions. I’m officially dropping the Messi and Ronaldo talk.
October 21st, 2009 at 13:09
NICKY BUTT > ronaldo
October 21st, 2009 at 13:28
@Merlinus: Even though I have tried my best to stop all the people getting into this topic (because when people start to go beyond a limit for defending there point they actually unknowingly come up with statement in which they disrespect the other player. And to show any sort of disrespect to such footballing genius is not a good sign of fandom in my books. My personal opinion no offense towards anyone), I would like to react on your I found it sensible way of putting things in perspective rather than just writing comments after comments.
I would say couple of things. In most of the things that you have said I agree with you except following…..
Dribbling: I honestly feel that as far dribbling skill and ability both are concerned Messi has edge over Ronaldo. That comes out of the close control that he has. And I think the dribbling speed is one of the components of overall process of dribbling which Messi is better in.
I think there are couple of things I would like to add to that at least two things in that least….
Vision – Messi > Ronaldo
Close Control – Messi > Ronaldo
For everything else except for dribbling speed (not running speed) I agree with you.
So now if I want to add up things to aggregate:
Ronaldo is better : Pace, Strength, stamina (Debatable), goals, Aggression, Headers, Flairs and with a negative of showboating…
Messi is better : dribble speed, dribble accuracy, passing, Vision, Close Control….
So Roanldo Scores in 7 things with one debatable point and one negative.
Messi scores in 5….And mind you I haven’t added the finesse that Messi has and Ronaldo doesn’t…
All this proves that they are very close to each other and perspective totally depends on the way you look at the things…..
But, I would put this way
If I am a person who wants to go to football match then who would I prefer playing Messi of course for just sheer pleasure on eyes he gives…
But if I am a captain or manager of the football team then who would i prefer of course Ronaldo he is a match winner thats all…
So, take your perspective who you are…. And what you want….
But, having said all of it I will reiterate that They are footballing gods… Please don’t compare….
October 21st, 2009 at 13:34
Something new to talk about……
I came across this on some footy site (i don’t exactly remember)….
Stats of Rafa Benetiz…
62 players in, 51 players out of a cost of £247 million….
Amazing and then that cunt manage to say that he doesn’t have money…
Mind you they all are last 5 yrs stats…… Even after buying 62 players the man has not been able to change team from two man team to 11 man team what a pitty…..
I want Rafa to continue at pool forever….
Like they say…” IN RAFA WE TRUST”…….
October 21st, 2009 at 14:20
Please move to the newer post…
October 21st, 2009 at 16:24
@Merlinus: at headbutting