Apr 08
Fickle Fans, Old Legs and Injuries
Some shite tabloid went with the headline ‘Manchester United fans want Giggs axed’ and when I read it, it pissed me off. It’s the fkn business end of the season, do we really need knee-jerk reactions and idiots who hit the panic button when they can’t find where they put their keys to represent us?
Axing Giggs is NOT the answer. When he plays well, everyone harps on about how his critics are wrong. When he plays poorly, the critics have a ball. No one’s getting to the real problem – our own ridiculous expectations.
Ryan Giggs of today will not give you a mindblowing season like that of Ronaldo’s. Heck, he won’t even give you a vintage Giggsy season now. What he will do though, is create chances, play intelligently on the pitch and make up the numbers when we have injuries. He’s played 34 games this season and done well, considering his age and the pace of the game (especially United’s) these days. You could just as easily argue that Scholes has lost that pace and verve of before, but then what do you expect?
Both Giggs and Scholes have done well to adapt to their limitations and have evolved as players. They can’t be pure match-winners in the sense that Rooney and Ronaldo are but they are still valuable to the team and I’d rather have those two starting than Park and Fletcher, at least this season.
United made a terrible start to the season – factor that in and you’ll see why we are only 3 points ahead instead of 6 or 8 or 10. One draw won’t end the season – in fact it might just force this side to give a little bit extra against Arsenal on the weekend (too bad Fletch is out) and I’d still back United to beat Roma, Arsenal, Blackburn and Chelsea in this month.
Just take it one game at a time, and we’ll be fine. Vida will probably be back after the Arsenal game (I don’t see why he should be rushed) but Rio is reportedly doing better than expected as well. You’d think that Fergie would rush one of them back for the Arsenal game but I hope he doesn’t and that he let’s those two get fit for the CL semi-finals (assuming we qualify tomorrow) and the Chelsea and Blackburn away games, which will be tougher to win than the Arsenal game at home.
It will be interesting to see if Neville gets a start tomorrow. I think that sooner or later Evra will be given a breather, and that would probably mean O’Shea on the left or Pique slotting in if Rio / Vida are back, although there’s Silvestre to consider as well. A lot of people are clamoring for Owen Hargreaves to play at right-back considering his hard tackling and crossing skills, but he’s a bit like Essien in that spot, albeit less marauding. Overall I’d be more comfortable with Hargo starting central than right-back, but if that’s what it takes to have him on the pitch to swing in those crosses, then why not?
We can’t afford an injury to another defender at this point, so Fergie has some interesting choices to make tomorrow. The fickle fans will barrack him if his team doesn’t win and bask in the glory if they do.
As for Giggs and Scholes – unless Nani is fit and unless Anderson can impose himself in Europe instead of running around like a headless chicken, those two are quite good in their positions. You might have Fergie resting Scholes against Roma for a shot at Arsenal, but whoever he plays in midfield and defence are good enough to win the title this season.
Related items from Red Rants:
- Arsenal Preview: Will United do it?
- Edwin Van der Sar and Ben Foster can happily coexist
- Keegan ‘I’d Love It’ Returns To Geordie-land. Heh!
- In defence of Louis Saha
- Aston Villa 0-0 Man Utd: United Escape With Draw
Tags: Opinions/Columns
April 8th, 2008 at 10:38
Really good article, I wish people would ease off Giggsy, it is not as if Nani has been pulling yp trees consistantly this season and the same could be said for Anderson of late. Defensively I am worried O’Shea was terrible on Saturday and wes has not been at his best recently. I hope Pique can step into the breach, as I believe he can be a top prem defender. Fergie does need to play Hargo more his energy levels will be important at this stage of the season and we need someone to put in some big taclkes in the big games. keep the faith!!
April 8th, 2008 at 11:09
Good piece.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:31
i think Giggs n Scholes had good game against Boro…it was unlucky to convert the chances we had…
but Tevez was horrible..
April 8th, 2008 at 11:50
Giggs had a good game against Boro? – not in the game I was watching he didn’t!. I think Ryan always gives a better account of himself in the home games for some reason. He does give the ball away a lot when under pressure in the away games. He has little composure in possession when being tightly marked as he obviously will be in away games. Do I think he should be playing in our last few games this season?. Not anymore than I feel any player out of form should not be playing. I think it’s quite a long time since Ryan was a really effective player for us, and if that MAKES ME A FICKLE FAN AHMED, then so be it?. I pays my money, stand on the terraces in all feckin kinds of weather, screaming my head off, chanting in support, and so I tell it as I am seeing it week in week out. Am I one of the ones feeling it’s time for Ryan to be replaced – Yes I am – sorry if that disappoints. But I will always remember Giggsy as a United legend!, and will never give him a hard time in front of opposing fans.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:04
I dont totally agree with this article, giggs lost possession of the ball that led to Boro’s first goal and continued to give the ball away under pressure. I believe also Tevez should have been kept on as he more likely to get us a goal aka Lyon and Spurs away. Dont get me wrong I love Giggsy and I think he can still contribute to our season but only as a sub as his legs are now gone. If you watch sundays game again in the fist few mins giggs was in control of the ball pushed it forward and a boro midfielder came from behind to easily take the ball off him – it said it all and was sad to see. Fergie please do not use Giggs tomorrow night, play Park or Anderson, its sad to say that and I thought I would never say it but we must put the result & United first. My team tomorrow night would be VDS, Evra, Brown, Pique, Neville(shock but we need the experience) Park, Hargreaves, Scholes, Ronaldo, Tevez & Rooney.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:42
What bullshit is this?Saying anderson runs around like a headless chicken?ur kidding right?And then going on to praise Giggs who has done shit on the field the whole season apart from a few performances.Fans are are not blind!
April 8th, 2008 at 12:46
There is nothing fickle or kneejerk about wanting a player who has been poor for several months to no longer be considered first choice. There are those who go overboard with their criticism of Giggsy, sure, but equally there are those who let sentiment get in the way and refuse to acknowledge the perhaps unpalatable truth that Giggsy should no longer be a starter.
That latter group frequently (as seems to be the case with this article) paint themselves as ‘top reds’ and dismiss those holding a different opinion as idiots, as lesser fans. ‘How dare you criticise Giggsy, what sort of fan are you?’ – it’s rubbish and sadly the plethora of United blog sites these days are full of such dire articles.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:57
Taehr – learn to read. I said in EUROPE, and by that I was referring to his last game against Roma where he missed the plot for the whole game. He needs to be more tactically aware of what’s going on around him.
Craig – for the record, I’ve been of the opinion that Giggs and Scholes playing in the first XI would hold United back. Having said that, why do people have a go at Giggs when there is no one better who is fit to replace him?
Like it or not, Giggs is still better than Park. Nani should in any case be held back for Arsenal and given a chance to get fit for the big games coming up. Giggs could be rested tomorrow though, you never know.
April 8th, 2008 at 13:26
Ahmed – In your opinion mate Giggs is better than Park at the moment, but not in mine!!!. Park wasn’t on the field long in the Boro game, before in one magic moment of his play, we had an equalising goal. Ryan used to have these magical moments, but not so many of late!. Park is a little terrier, tracking back and putting in tackles everywhere. Hargo and Park quietened Downing and nullified Boro’s rampaging up their left side of play. Anyway Ahmed – one mans meat, another man’s poison eh?. Some will prefer Park now over Giggs, but others will prefer Giggsy. Just because some of us think that Giggs’es days are coming to an end, and talk about it openly, doesn’t mean we can be declared fickle. I have United’s best interest at heart, but then so do we all!!!.
April 8th, 2008 at 13:29
I don;t know what some UNited fans are on about, but I find Giggs to be magnificent these days. He helps the team so much – in defence, with assists, he is one of our only players who can actually cross the ball effectiveley and he hardly ever gives up. He might not be fast or flashy anymore, but he still brings a lot to the team. On top of that he is our best left winger and I think that he brings a degree of stability to the team…
April 8th, 2008 at 13:38
Well i have stopped posting here for a long time . Fans seem to be fickle to the core . The vicious circle of blame Carrick Tevez Rooney Hargo Scholes etc goes on forever .
I still rate Giggs highly , however his age is reflecting badly.If Giggs is allowed to play with the likes of Hargo Anderson and Carrick , he would be a different player.
Scholes and Giggs can never play together because their contribution to defense is poor.
We missed Anderson and Hargo badly the other day at Boro. Both of them posses 2 great qualities , Superb Upper body strength and ability to commit simple fouls when needed . Scholes challenges are so frightening that there is always a chance of a red
Big Sam the other day said ‘It is a point gained , not 2 points lost’. I accept it totally . Boro are a superb team with the ability to get away from the most stupid fouls . All top teams succumb to these kind of performance and we were great enough to get a point out of it !
Considering the return of Nani Silvestre Vidic Rio and excellent performances from Park , i think we are ideally placed to launch the final assault .
April 8th, 2008 at 14:01
nani>park>giggs, that just about sums it up. im judging on current form, but then in giggs case, he has no form right now.
April 8th, 2008 at 14:05
rick, fans blame on carrick WAS justified but has matured, but he became better, fans blame on rooney was justified, and he’s become better, fans blame on scholes was justified and he became better, fans blame on hargo and tevez was however unfair.
April 8th, 2008 at 14:37
There’s no doubt that Giggs is clever, and a good crosser of the ball. His set piece delivery has also been notably stronger the past couple weeks, in particular corners. However, he barely gets to cross, because he’s not in the right positions. He barely ever plays through balls, because he’s omitted in our pacy buildup play. He may make intelligent runs, but they come to nought because his first touch is letting him down. And lets face it, he’s never been a good striker of the ball.
My point is, does he really offer any more than Park, because he lacks the energy and defensive side of the game taht Ji-Sung brings. Clearly fergie still think he’s more valuable, but I really, really am beginning to doubt it.
IMO if Nani is fit he gets in there over both of them.
April 8th, 2008 at 14:52
Somebody should just listen to Mexes…We have some great offensive players like Ronaldo , Rooney , Scholes. Giggs is in there. He forgot to mention him. Pace is a matter of age. Football is more than pace and age.
Let me remind you what Ronaldo , the Brazilian , did in the 2002 World Cup.Not so pacey as in 1998 but he made it. Well, let me remind you of Paul Schole’s assist in last Manchestr’s European game.
Do you remember Scholes’ celebration after the Ronaldo goal? That movement of his hand.To me that “YEAH” movement means power – will – professionalism – maturity – calmness – composure – concertration on the goals.That’s what the team gets from Scholes – Giggs.
In fact, we need them and without them we re not a team . We re a bunch of over-testosteroned young ambitious lads who want to show off some times. These old lads – OMG what I ‘m saying – are MU’s heart.
April 8th, 2008 at 15:20
He had a bad game against roma- true.but how many bad games has giggs had? Its no coincidence that fans are constantly on his case.Fergie shared the same frustration and he showed it on sunday.Anderson maybe had a poor game/games because hes playing in that attacking midfield role where he cant get involved like when hes played in central midfield and he is finding it difficult to keep his form because hes now being rotated
April 8th, 2008 at 15:21
better news – rio might play tomorrow.
April 8th, 2008 at 15:26
Thank the lord…
April 8th, 2008 at 15:33
we do not have a light at the end of the tunnel this season, we have the premier league and champions league trophies instead
April 8th, 2008 at 15:55
Think Barca would sell us Henry this summer?
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=523906&cc=5901
Maybe Football Manager IS REAL haha!!!
April 8th, 2008 at 16:02
lol, imagine henry playing for west ham. i would happily say no to henry,, he’s not as good as he use to be, and to get the best out of him, the team must play to him and not play to each other like we do and how arsenal do now. he would probably do well at west ham you know…
April 8th, 2008 at 16:06
I agree with you Dan, bt it would be fun to have him on my United team in Fifa 2009. For video game reasons I pray we buy him.
April 8th, 2008 at 16:07
The articles were only echoing the sentiment of many of the fans unfortunately. Look at this blog for example. I’m one of the few that never asks for his head and that wasn’t down on him for the last game. Unlike Scholes, Giggsy has always done it for me. I love the guy so perhaps I watch his deteriorating skills through rose colored glasses but the bottom line is that I still think he has something to offer. But just not as a regular starter. It’s Nani time and even with the relative inexperience, his youth, energy, speed and general ability right now are better than Giggsy’s. But Giggsy still has it over Nani and Anderson in experience and smarts, and at this stage with 5 left to play and the semi’s of the CL beckoning, I feel more comfortable with him on the pitch. That’s the way I feel about Scholes too. Old legs be damned, experience and intelligence are more valuable at this stage of the season. Scholes especially should also have the energy having missed a large portion of the season due to injury. Our biggest concern is not Giggs, it’s preventing any more season threatening injuries to our top players. So lets all get off Giggsy’s back for now at least. He’s giving his best out there. Not enough of you say squat when Anderson or Tevez stink the joint up, or hardly any of you seemed to notice Brown’s awful performance at Middlesbrough. Instead it was “Giggs is shite”, “Giggs is slow”, “get rid of Giggs”. And to think that I was accused of having no respect or appreciation for the veterans. Giggsy needs our support, not our betrayal.
April 8th, 2008 at 16:16
Wheezy; Barca can wrap Henry up nice and tight with a nice bow and sell him to Spurs or Chelsea for all I care. The last guy I would want at OT. I absolutely hate him and besides, he’s over the hill. His best days are well past the expiry date and United do not retool with over the hill washups. Lets spend the money intelligently by getting a player that’s at least 6 to 7 years younger than Henry and much more in form.
April 8th, 2008 at 16:25
Grognard,
See my other post, I agree with you completley. I would rather see us get a decent RB and a young striker for that money. I just thought it would be cool to have Henry on my United squad for Fifa 09 on XBox Live. By the way, if any of you guys play on there, hit me up Wheezy23.
April 8th, 2008 at 16:32
Andrei; Well said about Giggsy. Now if only the rest would wake up and see that his positives far outweigh his negatives. And all you outh there saying Park is better than Giggs is just such a joke and show of disloyalty and poor judgment. Honestly, how fickle are we? A player comes in and makes one nice play and shows some energy and now he’s better than a living legend who brings so much more to a game than just energy. Wake up already and stop being a bunch of fickle bandwagon jumpers. Next thing I’ll be hearing is that Manucho is the best striker in Europe, or that Pique is world class because he set up shop for twenty good minutes last weekend. Listen to yourselves people!
The reason the English game needs foreigners to play in it is because the old English style is out of date and doesn’t work anymore at the highest level. Unfortunately many of the fans still think like this and value hard tackling, running hard and crossing as the only skills of any use. It’s time many of you converted your taste to a more continental style or just change allegiance to the Coca Cola Division where the game is still played in your oh so awful and boring manner. A league that would give Park and Anderson 9/10 and Scholes or Giggs 6/10 because they don’t run hard enough with their heads down.
April 8th, 2008 at 16:36
Wheezy; Nothing is stopping you for placing Henry on your FIFA 09 team anyway, if that floats your boat. Go for it mate. Just don’t wish that ass clown on the rest of us for real. He’s never come to United even if we wanted him to anyway. Let him go to Seattle where he can snooze like Beckham.
April 8th, 2008 at 16:41
Grognard. Thats a bit hypocritical 2 say we should support giggs and not betray him.You were one of rooney’s harshest critics were was the support when the only thing missing was goals. Ahmed in europe andy was not a decapitated chicken he was shifted 2 play in the hole so blame fergie 4 that.I still think giggs is being unfairly assessed.He sometimes comes up with clever passes and pace has not been his strength 4 past 3 seasons but smart movements.On sunday he was ok especially 1st half and concerning losing possession ronaldo was a bigger culprit together with scholes
April 8th, 2008 at 16:50
Grognard; I’m glad you, like me, still have faith in Giggs’ ability. I’m sure nearly everyone here knows that Nani is a better player than Giggs these days, but he’s injured so Fergie had good reason to play Giggs against Midlesborough. Fans are fickle, fans are hypocritical, there’s no way around it. People on here were talking about Park as if he was useless trash 2 months ago, now they’re saying he’s fit to start in our team. But then again Grognard, you’ve had a personal disliking for Tevez since Christmas time, which is before he was out of form, and you haven’t got behind him in a while, even when he was great against Villa. Same goes for Anderson. That’s your opinion, that’s your bias, that’s fine. I do agree that Anderson’s been out of form for probably about a month and a half, and in a few of these games(bar Villa) he was running around like a headless chicken, but he’s still a great prospect. Tevez hasn’t been in great form, but he also hasn’t played much recently so that doesn’t help. The reason I think you have a personal disliking for him is because you want him to be a poacher, a goalscorer, you’re ideal striker, which is fair. But Tevez and Anderson need our support as well, nearly as much as Giggs, although thankfully they both get supported by most United fans, probably 90% of them.
April 8th, 2008 at 16:51
calm down grognard, wheezy was just making a joke.
April 8th, 2008 at 16:57
Grognard: It’s funny you claim we all love an old fashioned English style and then you give the two examples of this as a Brazilian and a South Korean, whilst your examples of continental footballers who we should respect more are an Englishman and Welshman. Get a bit mixed up?
Ahmed, Andrei, Rick, Grognard, whoever- I don’t think fans are being fickle in calling for Giggs to be dropped. Being fickle would be suddenly saying “Giggs is a shit player”, and whilst some may be saying that, it’s not the point that the majority are trying to make. He is off form, and has been badly so for pretty much the whole season. I actually think he SHOULD play tomorrow, along with Scholes instead of Anderson (whom I love) this is because their experience is important for the CL, and in a game in which we will have a leaky defence, and which we are 2-0 up, we need players who are going to slow the game down when necessary, which the veterans are masters of. If possible, Nani should play against Arsenal though, and at the moment, Nani, if fit, should be our first choice. He has been so much more effective than Giggs. Park is a different matter, and I think it depends on which sort of game we’re playing. Maybe, if Nani is still injured, which he wont be, Park should play against Arsenal, but Giggs tomorrow. It’s circumstantial, and we have to base choices (and criticism) on form and circumstance.
Andrei- it’s frankly ridiculous to say Giggs is “magnificent these days”. He has hardly had a good game all season. I still think, maybe, we need his experienced head at times, but to say things like his general contribution such as defence and assists has been good is wrong, and I wonder if you actually watch many of our games. A better tackler than people realise, Giggs has not contributed this season to defence as he has in the past. Similarly, though his crossing is good, his assists pale in comparison to, for example, Nani’s, who has played much less football than Giggsy. The reason? He lingers about in the middle of the pitch, getting back too late to defend, getting forward too late to put in a cross; he can’t skin his marker like he used to.
Noone is saying he has not been a wonderful servant to the club, delighting us with exquisite football for nearly two decades. We are not being fickle. We are being realistic. Though he still has an important part to play, fans are correct to point out that, based on recent form (extending back for the season rather than Anderson’s bad form which extends back for, well, a game) Giggs does not deserve to be in our starting XI.
April 8th, 2008 at 17:09
Jaywire; When Rooney serves almost twenty years with the club, then come back and say that to me. Besides, when Rooney wasn’t scoring, he was worse than Giggs because that’s what forwards are supposed to do. If I can be called a hypocrite, it’s because of the way that I was ready to send Scholes out to pasture. Since then, I have come around because Scholes game has come around. And so has Rooney’s. And besides, I was never asking for Rooney to get axed. I just felt he wasn’t playing the position of striker well enough and that he is much more suited to a second striker role. Go back and read a little more carefully before you accuse me like that.
April 8th, 2008 at 17:09
Conor – I’ll say it again, just because we don’t agree with you about Giggs, doesn’t make us fickle or hypocritical. Its all about opinions mate, and those who feel Giggsy is not contributing as much these days, doesn’t make their comments any less valid than yours!!!.
By the way, are you an armchair fan, or one of us so called fickle fans who stand on the freezing cold terraces cheering the lads on every bloody week?. ‘Cos it get right up my nose, when fans who are out there and in the thick of it, get criticised as fickle for having an opinion. We say what we see mate!.
Morgan – Totally agree with you mate!, my sentiments exactly. And I couldn’t have put it better myself. You said it good mate!.
April 8th, 2008 at 17:12
Dan; I was perfectly calm and my words were not harsh at all. I just stated that he could still place Henry on his FIFA 09 team if he wanted. The fact that I don’t like Henry and said so is not me getting angry. Some of you occasionally read too much into a statement.
Sam; I never ever said that the only players that play that style are from the UK. But that running desire and general lack of finesse and skill is exactly what most of those fans like to see. Blue collar pedestrian crap football that should have died during it’s birth in the Industrial Revolution. And I’ve always felt it refreshing that players like Scholes and Giggs weren’t yet more clones from the millions who have been spawned over the last 125 years or so. Work rate and running is overrated when there is very little skill to compliment that. And Anderson’s bad form extends to well beyond a game. Give me a break already! GEEZ!
And we are all fickle when it suits us, myself included. So lets stop with the denial. Some of you must have sore backs jumping on and off that bandwagon. Time to show some faith and some loyalty to some of our experienced war horses I say.
April 8th, 2008 at 17:18
right now with nani out injured Park is a way better option than giggs as far as im concerned.
All you need to do is play him down the left wing, play ronny down the right. 2 strikers n were laughin.
When giggs plays he comes in field which makes ronny move too far up the park. it fucks up the balance of the team.
Yea park aint a super hero or anything but he has bundles of energy, tracks back like no one else and has shown he can create a goal with a clever accurate pass
What more can we ask for?
I honestly couldt tell u the last time giggs had a good half never mind game. Without fail he fades away to nothin after 45 minutes yet he stays on the park!
Yea he still moves with class but i feel this is often misinterpreted as being effective!??
His crossing, altough usually acurate lack any pace which makes them
1- easy for defenders to deal with
2- harder for our lads to attack!
I rewatched the boro game l.night n honestly couldnt beleive how shoddy his performance was.
abysmal.
Appreciate hes chasing this record but he aint gotta start to add to his tally…..JUST USE HIM AS AN IMPACT SUB. thats what makes sense as it is clear he aint got the pace/energy to sustain good performance for 90mins.
April 8th, 2008 at 17:18
Sam, Anderson has been out of form for a lot longer than just that Roma game, and a few people noticed that here, others just ignored it because he has been having a great season and he’s become a fan favourite because of his commitment to the team and also, obviously, how well he has played for most of the season. Also, I was looking for Giggs’ number of assists to try and back up Andrei’s claim, but unfortunately couldn’t find any
Thankfully I stumbled across 2 different Fantasy League charts (the official Premier League one and ESPN’s one) and noticed that Giggsy was our second best player(judging purely from points) in each. Now I would never use that as a stat to properly back up my argument, but he must not have had that bad a season, and he must have been fairly productive. Still I admit this has probably been his worst season, but he’s still a valuable player.
April 8th, 2008 at 17:21
Craig mc, I’m a season ticket holder, but unlike you I don’t use it as a way of stating my loyalty to the club. I didn’t say that any of us here were being hypocritical regarding Giggs, I mean in general. I haven’t a problem with people who don’t think Giggs is up to it any more, fair enough that’s your opinion.
April 8th, 2008 at 17:27
Does anyone think we will pull thru tomorrow.I’m really concerned about both neville and silvy playing.Why does rio and vida get injured at this stage?Not that neville is a bad player and i don’t buy this “he’s too old” crap that is always thrown at older players.Im worried because he hasn’t played in over a year and will be facing a team promising 2 give 200% and make sure they come out with a result at all costs.And roma are going 2 come out nuclear weapons blazing and neville will face double bombing from both mancini and tonetto because ronaldo can’t take the ball away from a toddler.Silvestre is a serial error man and i’ve never liked his back passing urges and he’s been out the whole season.Not pessimistic but justifiably concerned
April 8th, 2008 at 17:43
Grognard-I suppose we should show unwavering support 4 a player only when the attain the status of having played “almost twenty years” 4 us?Rhetoric. Secondly rooney was miles ahead of giggs in performance because he didn’t score but made as nails that somebody else did thats why he tops assists.Giggs was supposed 2 be providing.And i’ve not seen anyone say giggs should be axed.And your criticism of rooney was overly harsh thats why i picked u out.However i still think giggs has more 2 offer than the credit he gets
April 8th, 2008 at 18:08
Conor – if there is a better way of stating your loyalty to a club, than turning up each week to support them, then tell me about it!. Apologies by the way to United fans who live in other countries, or too far away to get to games, I am not trying to offend you by talking about armchair fans!. You are a season ticket holder Conor – ok mate, then you should know that United fans in the stand home and away games, are fully behind any player in a red shirt who is on the field. I haven’t heard any boo-ing of off form players, a few groans p’haps when possession is lost, but on the whole all our players are supported once picked and playing on the day. So imagine how much it will gall loyal fans who give their all supporting United, to be called fickle and hypocrites for having differing opinions on message boards. That was why I used the attending fan talk, and I was just speaking out for all game attending fans who can get there. This should show we are not fickle and hypocrites. Anyway – enough said.
April 8th, 2008 at 18:16
look guys, there is no point in getting into a debate/ argument over giggs, some might think he is doing might think he’s doing ok, some might think he needs to be dropped, us ranting about wont improve the situation.
April 8th, 2008 at 18:43
Dan is the voice of reason. damn, never saw that one coming
That soccernet news is BS – and if we had a choice, I’d take both
United fans hate Henry for his Arsenal connections and Ronny because he went to Barca instead of coming to us but the fact is, getting those two will improve the team.
Of course, there are big downsides to them coming on board – wages, negative press, the arsenal connection, endless speculation, etc etc – which makes them unattractive buys.
But Ronaldinho – he’s only 28, you know. A good rest and pre-season will make him whole again, hopefully. Odds on him running up and down the left wing ahead of a marauding Evra, supporting Rooney and Ronaldo coming in from the right? And if Henry is there, we have the 4 best forwards in England….
Ok, back to reality now
April 8th, 2008 at 18:46
April 8th, 2008 at 19:18
[craig mc]
You must understand that when someone makes a generalization, it is often unfair and there are exceptions. Yes I agree, we never boo our own players — not even Louis Ha Ha, hell, not even Djemba-Djemba. We even backed Heinze despite all his agent talking BS, until he said it himself.
But there are sections of United fans who are not the same. I am sure you may remember the times when even some from the United faithful were calling for Fergie’s head. Only to cream over him after he delivered the title last season. Even this season, I know people slagging Fergie off for picking ridiculous formations, or for just drawing games. In some cases they are justified because they so desperately want the team to win, in other cases they are being plain ridiculous.
I am sure Ahmed was quite ticked off by angry calls to MUTV by fans asking for Giggsy’s head. I think he’s talking about a growing section of United fans that are showing disrespect to one of our most decorated wingers. I’m not saying that he shouldn’t be dropped, but I’d be very angry if someone said good riddance to that Welsh winger — which is how these fans sounded like to me from the Sun article
April 8th, 2008 at 19:35
I’m getting ready to watching the Liverpool-Arsenal game and the best thing that can happen to
United would be for the game to go to penalties and Arsenal to lose. Oh a few injuries to Arsenal
as well.
April 8th, 2008 at 19:36
Well said RR.
Jay Wire; I still stand by comments on Rooney. Rooney has always been an outstanding super talent. However, he is not a prolific goal score thus, he is playing out of position as a striker or even worse a lone striker. He’s also not a winger, which he sometimes is positioned in a 4-3-3 formation. He is an outstanding second striker and in my opinion should become the heir to Scholes, not Anderson. I think he would make and outstanding AMF because he has vision, passing ability, finesse, can run like crazy, has energy, ambition and imagination. He is also way above average as a finisher in that position. Remember that Scholes was below average finisher when he was considered just a forward. So don’t mistake my misgivings of Rooney as a lone striker with Rooney as a player. He should be played at a position that maximizes his skill set and gives him the most confidence and chance to succeed. Now does that sound like a Rooney basher to you? Read my posts more carefully. What may sound like bashing is more frustration with a player’s current form and with his positioning and improper usage.
A s for Tevez, let me answer the few digs in my direction on him. I like Carlos Tevez, I just don’t feel he is the kind of forward we need right now, unless it’s as a sub who is injected in the game to add energy and determination late in a game. For me a striker or forward has to be a raw finisher too. Unlike Rooney who occasionally goes hunting for goals, Tevez spends most of his time outside of the box, except on corners or set pieces. That is why most of his goals have come from corners. I want a forward who can hold the ball up but who can become an annoyance to a goalkeeper in the box and cause havoc and confusion for central defenders. Tevez is not that man.
April 8th, 2008 at 19:49
Rio may face Roma!
That means that he defo is ready for lè Arse.
April 8th, 2008 at 20:37
Grognard..Ur thoughts on rooney may be right but he can never be scholes’s replacement simply because scholes
plays much more deeper than a normal AMF so rooney can be the second striker playing along with a
No:9 BTW giggs is old and he needs to be used in short bursts say bring him on after 60 minutes
and i have to agree with the rest that giggs ua way past his prime…
April 8th, 2008 at 20:48
Grognard : Be a realist “If We need to win in europe we not only need experience but also speed”
that’s what this united team is built for .Everyone in europe knows we are dangerous because of the\
speed rooney and ronaldo have and our lightning counter attacking capability..so I guess people
are right about fergie giving giggs a starting place just because giggs has to break sir bobby”s record.
April 8th, 2008 at 21:01
Mas_ter; Where in my posts did I say that speed wasn’t important? What I said was that England is obsessed with speed. running hard and being physical, and that’s it. I say use all those but incorporate finesse, imagination, change of tempo, flair and moving the ball along the ground as opposed to the English fail safe of playing the long high ball and chasing it. Giggs plays because his game possesses all the tools necessary. Yes some of those tools are not as sharp as they once were, but in the case of players like Anderson and Park, they don’t even possess half the tools that Giggsy has forgotten. Nani on the other hand is a lot closer to Ryan.
My strategic thinking on how the game should be played is deeply rooted in the continental game and most notably the German/Dutch style of the 70’s and 80’s. I have never been a fan of the English way of playing the game nor the closed mindedness in their style and tactics. The game has evolved and will continue to evolve. It’s time England came along for the ride before they become a tier two football nation. I am a realist thanks, but I also have my eyes wide open as opposed to wide shut (apologies to the late Stanley Kubrick for the last example).
April 8th, 2008 at 21:50
You won’t get too many more riveting and exciting games than the Arsenal v Liverpool CL match just concluded. WOW! High drama and a very controversial penalty that handed the tie to the frakken Scousers. I am no fan of Arsenal but I hate Scousers (except Rooney and the Beatles of course). Yet again a referee’s stupid call destroys the hope of another team in football. It doesn’t matter where the referee is from, that call for me was rubbish. I sort of feel bad for the Voyeur and all Arsholes out there. Especially after Adebayour’s goal set up beautifully by a 1999 retro Giggs style run by Walcott. In that five to ten second span, Theo Walcott showed all the potential and promise that England fans have been waiting to see. What a game. Now the Scousers play Chelski to see who will eventually meet Man Utd in the final. We have to be optimistic now don’t we?
April 8th, 2008 at 23:05
The Arsenal Liverpool game was indeed a crazy football match. The Penalty was 50/50 more so after the decison going against Hleb in the first leg which was more clear cut. Walcott’s run was amazing but will count for nothing and regardless the Arse and Pool bieng our sworn enemies they admititly had probably one of the best games of the season.
The best thing to take from the game is knowing that Arsenal must be very low on morale and motivation, thinking that decisions and games cannot go their way. They have a point as well as football is often decided on luck and Arsenal are out of it. Wenger will try to get to get them rejovinated for the title campaign but the season has shown Arsenal lack the leadership and balls when most needed.
Really looking forward to the upcoming games now where it is clear that the experience and control of the likes of Scholes and Gigggs can prove vital but so can the raw energy and drive of players like Anderson and Nani.
April 8th, 2008 at 23:27
Red Ranter – So you’d be very angry if someone said “good riddance to that Welsh Winger”, and fair enough. Imagine then how angry fans might get at being labelled fickle and hypocritical, for giving an opinion on whether they feel Giggsy is off form, or past his best now!!!.
Dan(u-ol) – mate, the whole point of commenting on an article on a fan forum, is for people to DEBATE and argue the ‘ifs’ and ‘buts’ of the topic being addressed.
Ahmed – If you think Dan(u-ol) is the voice of reason, why have a comments section on your articles at all then?. Because as I just said to Dan – the articles are for DEBATING, and each poster arguing his point – isn’t that what forums are all about?.
April 9th, 2008 at 0:08
[craig mc]
Ahmed was being tongue in cheek about Dan.
And about feeling angry at being labelled fickle and hypocritical, you are entitled to do so. But Ahmed hasn’t pointed fingers at anyone in particular. His statement was generic and, as all general statements go, they are half-truths. You picked your situation (of someone screaming in the freezing cold) and made it sound as if he was specifically keeping you in mind while writing the article and created a sort of a victim complex that I cannot agree with. I agree with your point that Giggs is past his best and many fans have gotten angry not out of a knee jerk reaction but because he has usually been below par for much of the season.
But why the angry phone calls? Why can’t they trust the manager to do his job? We are not Newcastle. We are not mired in a relgation battle. Nor are we fighting for a Champions’ League spot.
To be honest if someone says, as a general statement, that fans are fickle and hypocritical I can’t really say no. Let me tell you this, Figo was the darling of Barcelona, but became a villain. We welcomed Cantona from Leeds with open arms. We could have taken the moral high ground by booing him because he played for the shite. But he became our idol. However we can’t forgive Heinze ever because he contemplated moving to Liverpool. Take a deep breath, but doesn’t that reek of hypocrisy? Now I don’t want you to defend it, embrace it. Hypocrisy is as important an element of passionate fans as is loyalty. Fans can be fickle, they can be hypocrites. It’s a general statement, and there will be exceptions.
End of rant
April 9th, 2008 at 0:57
Craig; Very well said indeed mate. If we can’t debate on this forum, them what’s the point? So everyone DEBATE AWAY!
April 9th, 2008 at 2:56
This sucks. One thing sums up everything about people who deffend giggs…”Legend”…We all know that he is a legend and nobody argues that,so why do you have to remind us about it. Andrei “Giggs helping in deffence”? When was the last time you watch a game same goes for Grognard. I wasn’t acctually going to argue because Nani was injured anyway, but hearing all this crap and being called “Fickle fan” is just unacceptable. And Let me tell you stats 2 goals and 4 assists and don’t even tell me that stats mean nothing, even Nani has done better. He can’t help in deffence, creative input is close to zero, loosing the ball too much…I am not saying that Nani and park are way better, but if a player plays shit you call it shit.
April 9th, 2008 at 4:10
before i make my point here, let me tell you that Ryan Giggs is a legend…. and he’s one of my favourite players of all time…….
All that said, I do believe that he shuld be used in shorter bursts now….. he’s been great in some games this season but for most part he’s not performed all that well from the start….. i still believe that he brings a lot to the team (other than gary neville he’s the only one left who played in the 99 CL final, and that will count for a lot if we get there this season!!) but he shuldnt be expected to start every game…..
grognard, with all due respect, when someone criticizes one of the players’ current form…. simply calling him a legend and refering to his past achievements doesnt suffice…. fans expect so much from giggs because they have grown used to watching him play at a very high level and most people havent realised that he wont reach those heights again….. u criticize other people’s tone when u can come across as a bit harsh urself sometimes….. i’m not looking for a fight, but i thought i shuld make that point……
April 9th, 2008 at 4:26
Hey Grog, didn’t you want the Scouse to win? I was half hoping they did TBH. I wouldn’t say I was rooting for them(as that sure as shit would be blasphemy)but I’m not that sad that they won it over Le Arse.
You see, I have had this little dream in my head since the last round. We meet the scouse in the final and show them who the real Champions of Europe are. No more whining about ‘how may’ European titles and what not. Yes they may still have more, but we will be the current holders.
Then, we take the EPL title this year, then 2 more out of the next 3 years and then we could really say SAF has knocked them ‘off their fucking perch’…
April 9th, 2008 at 6:47
I hate the Scouse and Le Arse and couldn’t care less who wins. I would prefer to play Liverpool because they are an easy win compared to the Gooners.
April 9th, 2008 at 8:25
What rude remarks did taron come up with?By the way Grognard, to say Anderson and Park don’t possess half the qualities that giggs has forgotten is ridiculous.Park runs like mad but not in the idiotic fashion of players like savage.He gets into meaningful spaces and doesn’t let offensive opportunities just look at the last games.That dummy on sunday was what giggs would have done in his prime.Anderson looks even more promising with his spread of play and u can’t take the ball of him without risking a foul.That’s evidence of close ball control.
April 9th, 2008 at 9:26
I don’t get it?????. I think I have to speak up a little here for Taron!. What was so rude or offensive about his remarks?. He wasn’t saying Giggsy was shit, he was saying he is playing shit, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!. He admits like all of us that Giggsy is a legend, but feels other players put in better performances than he does now. I agree with him!. He doesn’t like the reference to fans who speak up being called fickle/hypocritical – Tell me about it!. He may have got to Andrei and our Grog a bit with mentioning them personally, but that’s all I can see really. Don’t think it’s fair Grog to say he isn’t on the forum enough to make judgement or statements, because what about newcomers Grog, shouldn’t they be aloud to rant at all?.
Red Ranter – was your last post to me A RANT as you said, because it sounded more like a psychiatric assessment lol!. I know you don’t understand where I am coming from in this debate, but when I talked about fans who stand on terraces, screaming in the cold, I was referring to all fans, who week in, week out, follow avidly the team. These fans can see the form and performance of certain players, and don’t need to wait for the stats in the papers to form opinions. That’s what I meant. The fans that Ahmed was referring to in his article, I listened to on MUTV when they phoned in. The Sun’s take on it, was way off the mark. They weren’t fickle or hypocritical, they were just faithful match going reds, who wanted to say how they felt. There was nothing low or offensive to Giggsy. The programme they phoned in to, was similar to a forum family really, where fans phone in, and different fans offer different viewpoints. Quite a few fans on this board have taken issues with the fickle/hypocritcal labelling remarks, so they must feel strongly about it. Anyway RR, this is my last post on this subject, I am ready to continue the banter in other newer threads.
Grog – thanks for your comments to me about debating – I love your heavy, ranting, tightarsed, debating mate, even though you, like me, can go a bit overboard sometimes!.
April 9th, 2008 at 9:38
that was an amazing match last night, and something i would like to touch upon is the arse second goal. if you haven’t seen then you must. walcot ran pretty much the whole field using pace and strength and a bit of skill, and when i saw the goal go in, i immediately thought, RYAN GIGGS, that was so similar to the giggs goal in the FA cup, just that unlike giggs he passed the ball. that is what i would like to see from giggs, i know he has lost his pace, but if he masters skill like ronaldo then he would not need pace that much, but really its a bit to late for that now, seeing that next season will probably be his last.
April 9th, 2008 at 9:47
craig, its a blog not a forum
Sam, AMEN, you speak the truth.
April 9th, 2008 at 9:59
O thanks Dan(u-ol), I feel very honoured you enlightened me!. I’ll remember that in future posts mate!. And I’m not saying this tongue in cheek, I mean it. Maybe I could piss others off calling a ‘blog’ a forum lol!!!!.
April 9th, 2008 at 16:05
[Sam]
I had to delete your comment because I don’t want another flaming war here. What you said was right in a way but taking issue and speaking for someone else here is something you should defer to me. Let’s talk about the Roma game and end this discussion here. Cheers.
April 9th, 2008 at 16:40
No worries, RR. I realised as I posted it that it was likely to go, and I think you were probably right to get rid of it- my little attempt at the end to make it a constructive piece about the subject didn’t trick you, eh?
April 9th, 2008 at 16:44
Jay wire; & Craig; I don’t know how you read those comments because Red Ranter saw it fit to delete my responses on two occasions. I guess I just have yo sit and take what I see as abuse of a member’s beliefs or opinions. Lets just say I felt his comments were rude and leave it at that. Obviously RR thought I was being overly sensitive because he deleted them.
April 10th, 2008 at 19:07
I can’t believe my comments were called “abusive”. Well it wasn’t my intention and Red Ranter as far as I am concerned we all are friends here, so I don’t see the point of deleting comments.
Thanks to craig and other people for somewhat deffending me, while I wasn’t here. Seems to me that I was abused enough for the comments to be deleted…and something like “you are not in the forums enough, so you can’t post your opinion” was said…sad…anyway Red Ranter please next time let people deffend their positions. I mean everything, but personal insults, should be acceptable.
April 10th, 2008 at 20:42
[Taron]
No one deleted your comments. I know you didn’t mean any personal insult.
And when did I not allow anyone to defend themselves?
April 10th, 2008 at 22:00
I meant deleting other people comments towards me. I guess their comments were abusive and you deleted them. I wanted to read and defend my point. I am honestly not abusive type, I mean I might argue aggresivly, but without abuses. Hope you understand.