Aug 03
From Pogba to Petrucci – United’s Reputation Is On The Line
Paul Pogba. I’m pretty sure none of us had heard anything about this young starlet before last week. In fairness, I doubt the season ticket holders at his former club Le Harve had even had the chance to comprehend his potential before he was whisked away under a cloud of smoke dosh.
Time to crack open the champagne? Well I doubt our latest signing would be too delirious at the thought as at just 16-years-old, Pogba is two years short of the legal drinking age and he can forget about driving himself to Manchester. The signing of the France U-16’s captain has, rather understandably, been greeted with sheer condemnation from the midfielder’s former employers.
“Le Havre wishes to express its indignation regarding the dealings of Manchester United’s directors,” the French club said in an official statement.
“This foolish act is even more unacceptable because it comes from a club with such stature.”
The statement went on to claim that United were guilty of offering large sums of money to the parents of Pogba in an attempt to persuade their son to opt for a switch to the Theatre of Dreams.
It’s a touchy subject really. On the one part we have acted within UEFA guidelines and simply offered a promising youngster the chance to nurture his talents with the most famous club in the world. At the other end of the spectrum you have the argument claiming that Pogba is just 16-years-old and that he shouldn’t be uprooted from the club of his youth, and indeed his homeland, at such a young age.
I have to say that I can fully comprehend the animosity that has been shown by Le Harve towards our club and board of directors. When this sort of topic comes up I always find myself saying ‘how would we feel if another club did this to us’ and it’s particularly prevalent here. Let’s just say for arguments sake that Real Madrid came in and poached a young Salford lad that was destined for greatness before he had even reached his 17th birthday. I don’t know about you but I’d be furious!
In these situations it’s worth pointing out what would be best for the player himself. As long as he is happy with moving abroad with his family in tow, there is no doubt he will receive the best possible football education in the Carrington environment. If the young lad proves to have the ability there is nothing to suggest that Sir Alex won’t give him a chance in the first team in the next couple of years too. Whether this is an issue of compensation, morals or even both, it really is a subject up for debate at the moment.
I guess the thing that gets me in these sort of transfers are the reports that suggest we slipped a few extra quid in the direction of the respective player’s parents to smooth negotiations. A similar thing happened with Federico Macheda and Davide Petrucci who we acquired as a 16-year-old from Lazio, offering his father a position as a groundsman at the club in an apparent attempt to sweeten the deal. That signing was met with similar outrage by the Italian club and it would seem we could be looking to ‘poach’ again in the future too.
Without concrete facts it’s difficult to point fingers but are you of the opinion that the club’s reputation is being dragged through the mud or are we merely offering potential stars the chance to flourish, acting completely above board in our actions?
Related items from Red Rants:
- Jumping Ahead of Hull and onto Barca
- FIFA shed light on United’s recent transfer activity
- Manchester United Make Two Signings
- Now that he’s no longer barking, it’s time to unleash the Pog-ba
- Episode 30 – CanTheyScore – Man Utd Podcast
Tags: Manchester United News
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This could very easily be stopped if those FA’s affected (Italy, France and Spain mainly) changed their rules to allow clubs to offer pro contracts to youngsters under 18, as is the case in England. They only have themselves to blame.
To stop kids moving between countries at all would require EU legislation and ratification of the Lisbon Treaty.
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Heres what somebody has to say on this topic (lifted from a similar debate going on at Redcafe, copy-pasting here as I really liked the arguments:
A few points……
1. Since the beginning of football, clubs have signed juniors straight from school at 15 years old. There was no ‘poaching’ as kids played for local teams and Academies did not exist. However, kids often trained with teams from 10 or 11 years old with a view to signing schoolboy terms at 14 and then as a professional at 17.
So players like Darren Fletcher who played for Hutchinson Vale Boys Club had been coming to United since he was 12. But the law in Scotland prohibits kids leaving school until 16.
With John O’Shea, he played for Ferrybank in Waterford but stayed on at school to finish his GCSE’s and as such came to United a little later. In fact he was offered terms at both QPR and Liverpool before agreeing to signe for United.
2. All clubs have had a host of lads from all over the world who have trained at the club since a young age……some go on to sign for those clubs but others move elsewhere. Beckham came very young and stayed. Mark Delaney was at United for years but decided to move to Aston Villa. Kevin Moran and Norman Whiteside were coming to United since they were 10 or 11. So was Ronnie Whelan. But there were no Academies so players were allowed to go to as many clubs as they wished until they signed schoolboy terms at 14.
3. In 1999 Academies were developed with certain rules (e.g.90 minutes rule) and ALL CLUBS were allowed to develop kids from 7/8/9. There was an emphasis on local talent but it didn’t and still doesn’t make sense.
For example, if a lad is born in the north west tip of Cumbria…..HE HAS TO GO TO Carlisle United. He is not close enough to go anywhere else. So the fact that Carlisle don’t have an Academy, have a very poor youth system is irrelevant to the FA. You could have the best prospect in England, but he is not allowed to get the best training or facilities.
So lots of clubs, either move the family to Manchester, or have chosen to look for talent abroad where these rules don’t apply.
But lets get this straight……just because they are in an Academy doesn’t mean the club has any rights. It is exactly the same as the point above in relation to young kids coming to train over many years.
The practice is exactly the same. We just call them Academies now when in the past we didn’t.
4. The likes of Lee Sharpe, David Bellion and others were not developed at other clubs. Lee Sharpe was a schoolboy at Birmingham City but they released him and he then signed for Torquay. He was spotted playing for there first team and signed.
5. We have signed loads of kids from other Academies. Some were released anyway (Scott Wootton) while others were very young. And remember, kids don’t play local football anymore. They join Academies from 7/8. So it’s virtually impossible to find any talent that hasn’t been at an Academy somewhere in this country.
So all this talk of ‘poaching’ is way over played and makes good newspaper stories but misses most of the facts.
6. On occasions we have approached other clubs and asked to sign kids. Sean McGinty is one of the latest and we always AGREE compensation with the other club. The kid isn’t forced to come and the other club isn’t forced to sell them.
7. The modern trend of signing ‘overseas’ players is not so modern. We had Ray Baartz and Col Curran over from Australia in the 1960′s, Jonny Rodlund from Sweden in the 1980′s and of course Mark Bosnich.
However, with the FA rules currently in place, it makes sense to look further afield. Pique wanted to leave as he felt he wouldn’t get a start for Barcelona. Rossi was forced to leave as Parma were in financial difficulties and had to get rid of all their players. Macheda and Petrucci wanted to come as in Italy, they don’t play youngsters in the first team. N’galula was in Belgium which is hardly somewhere to develop as a footballer. Mads Timm and Puustinen could be put in the same boat. Of course Germany has a good pedigree and I don’t know the personal details of Zieler or Neumayr. Except of course their old clubs didn’t have to sell and were paid compensation.
Personally, I think current practices don’t differ that much from the old days. But because so much money is involved, smaller clubs get on their high horse, scream ‘poaching’, have a go at the big clubs etc. But in the case of Pogba……Le Havre ‘poached’ him from a smaller provincial team. But that doesn’t make headlines did it?
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I understand why Le Havre are angry, but, really, their academy, like the ones run so well at Auxerre, Caen, Sporting Lisbon and Parma are their bread and butter. Sporting and Caen , for example, micro-manage and look after whole families, providing employment and housing, etc. Sporting tend to supply half the players in the Portuguese top flight to the other teams and have a vast scouting network doing their job in in former colonies like Angola, Mozambique and the Cape Verdes. It’s a cliché, but, really, it’s just business. If this kid is as good as they say and captain of the Under-17 France team, well, perhaps Le Havre should have taken better care of him.
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the fa equivalents in these countries can stop this if it’s really that bothersome to them, which it should be…i get that…but if they’re not going to change the rules so these teams in italy, france, etc can sign their kids…or have at the very worst a first refusal for professional contracts by a certain age then they’re going to have to deal with it. the offering of money/jobs is shady and worrisome like you said. the rest of it, to me, isn’t. they can train these kids with no compensation and if they get hurt they get hurt and that’s it. nothing…at least if they sign a pro contract at that young age they can get a little bit of money whether they pan out or not.
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As far as I know, Messi was signed by Barca from Argentina when he was 11 or 12….so this is not something United should feel bad about. Its being practiced by all major European clubs these days
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Personally I like the idea of a ban on U18 players moving clubs across borders. Much as I love the idea of United having the cream of international talent, you have to consider the welfare of the boys involved uprooted from their homeland and their family for an uncertain future in the game.
You also have to think about the livelihood of small clubs. The compensation they get is paltry when you consider that a few years along the line these boys could be worth millions.
Aside from the few wonderkids the majority aren’t going to break into a team as big as ours at age 18 and without first team appearances it is hard to develop.
Granted all the other big clubs do it and id rather the players came to us than one of our rivals. But the best thing is if they put a stop to it internationally and had rules like the Brazilian clubs
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I’d have no problem with a ban on the international transfer of U18s as long as the FA scrapped the ridiculous ’90 minute’ rule at the same time. As illustrated in the post above, it’s farcical – another example would be a kid born in Penzance. He might be a potential future great but he’s basically limited to going to Exeter or Plymouth, when without the rule he could potentially go to a club with the very best facilities and coaches with which to maximise his ability.
As far as I know none of our European rivals are restricted from scouting in the entirety of their own country, so when you consider we are restricted to a 90-minute radius that includes a chunk of the Irish Sea and North Wales, and also happens to be shared with probably another 20/30 Prem and Football League clubs, it’s hardly a surprise that we look abroad and get kids in like we have with Petrucci, Macheda, Pogba etc.
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What really pisses me off about this is that this only happens when united does it, and when they do it to a big club. Every single club out there does it, from Barca, to Besiktas. That’s how they get their new players to be home grown for the CL. And what really pisses me off is that when they do it to le Havre they shout murder, but when they do it to a south american club, there’s no problem, being Messi a great example, who was offered a deal at 13 by Barca while he was a oungster at Union de Santa Fe (or Colon de Santa Fe, I’m not really sure). Personaly I think it’s ok, cause in many cases (like Macheda’s) it brings a much needed source of income to the family, but it is also true that it should be regulated in some way.
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Bottom line is the FA in England limits United’s ability to sign up young players so we go abroad. If Brazil, Italy, France and other countries have archaic rules that limit their own clubs from signing player under 18 than they need look no farther than their own back yard to lay blame where it rightfully belongs. United is breaking no rules and I hardly feel what they are doing is unethical. It may not be good for a country’s league and divisions to not be able to keep local and young talent but then again, they created their own rules that shoot themselves in the foot.
It’s important to realize that United are not stealing these kids in the middle of the night in a slave labor like kidnapping. They have offered the lads and their parents plenty of money which helps out everyone and secures the boy’s financial status for life. So please tell me what is wrong with that? FIFA don’t need to step in to protect their favorite leagues here. Those leagues need to change their rules to give their team’s more financial power to keep players and to buy them before they are 18. Until then, smart and savvy teams like United and Arsenal will continue to swoop for these kids and continue to build a youth side and reserve team that will be the envy of the world. That can only be a good thing for our United in general.
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Another thing that worries me is that if we keep relying on foreign clubs for our youths we will become a feeder club. The moment these young foreign players get a reputation here naturally they will want to go back to their home country or a similar culture. In a way that is not a bad thing because we get them playing for us when they are young and hungry, but you need some players who are Manchester United through and through.
I have noticed we are picking up a few english youngsters but im not sure they are the same level as their foreign counterparts.
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@colver: The biggest problem will come if Blatter is successful in implementing the 6+5 rule. That’s when not signing enough English lads will really hurt us.
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Yeah personally I don’t see the big deal. As the often over used cliche goes “don’t hate the player hate the game”. As grognard pointed out, it’s the countries Neanderthal laws that allow this to happen. So don’t go blaming the clubs for going after the players.
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@Quantum: Barca got Messi by paying for his growth hormones…..
Giving a parent a well paid job on the ground staff to make it easier for them to afford to move over is hardly slavery is it?!
If you have a problem with it, blame your own country. If you don’t like the laws that we are obeying, then change them and we’ll obey those ones.
The reason people shout abotu United is because if United are interested in teh kid then he must be good and we are robbing the club from £30million of potential player
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@Grognard: 6+5 is the reason we are buying all these kids. A 6+5 ruling based on country of origin is completely illegal under EU law. ‘Home Grown’ means anyone who has trained at the club for 3 full years before their 21st birthday. The Da Silvas, Macheda, Anderson, Gibson, Evans, Petrucci and anyone we sign under the age of 18 counts as home grown.
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So far, we haven’t done anything that is outside the rules of the game and until this rule is rectified, this is going to continue and I don’t mind it as long as we’re operating within RULES. We’re giving this kids a chance to excel at an improved club and I see nothing wrong with that. I seem to remember Macheda’s father saying he was about to GIVE UP on football because his family couldn’t afford to continue to sponsor Macheda’s football development until United came in.
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@Traverse: That is a strange rule but yes you are correct. So we will stock up on foreign 16 year olds so that in 3 years when that rule probably is in place, we will have all these foreign players who will qualify as homegrown talent. I’d be careful if Blatter doesn’t amend the rule and clarify what he means by homegrown. After all, he and Platini are obsessed with ruining the English game.
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Le Havre poached Pogba first from a smaller club and said they did nothing wrong.
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Le Havre aren’t interested in the kid’s well being, they are interested only in his potential transfer value. Roma wouldn’t even give Macheda’s father petrol money to take his kid training.No doubt Blattini will be making ridiculous statements regarding Child Trafficking pretty shortly.
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just because other big clubs in europe do the same it dose not make it right. we have to realise that the greed of the big clubs could be the death knell of smaller teams far and wide. if a club nurchers a youngster then they should be compensated, even if its an appearence based deal or sell on clauses. what ever happened to football family!
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@Grognard: They can’t do shit because of European Employment Law. This is FIFA/UEFA pushing loopholes to the limit, and we don’t even need a team of lawyers to work out how to ‘subvert’ the upcoming ruling.
Anyway, from our point of view I’d much rather we picked up good young talent and teach them the United way, and I’m sure they’d rather be learning from people like McClair and Solskjaer than the coaching ‘talents’ of some French second tier team or Scandinavia’s finest reserve teams….
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My moving’s complete, but now I have the daunting task of unpacking and setting up my house. What’s more, I’ve got no internet when I get back home till tomorrow. Someone should fill in for me tomorrow — meanwhile here’s an interesting read from the past. Amazing how a lot of people’s perceptions on players etc (me included) change over time. Read the post and comments. Makes for a fun read.
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Hmm… Interesting that no one here has heard (or at least mentioned it here) that Mame Biram Diouf scored another goal for Molde in an 8-1 demolition of 6th place Start on August 1st. That’s his first goal officially on loan from us, I think.
Here’s the youtube video of all the goals. Diouf scored the 6th goal at about 0:53.
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@Red Ranter: You know RR, when I first came to this site, I could have sworn you and Grognard were the same person with 2 different alta-ego’s. I’m now convinced covinced of it.
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@Cyclops-Red: Blattini! I like that. Merging the two anti-Christ’s of modern football.
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@Traverse: They have more power than you think in changing laws because they can borrow from examples in North America where the good of the league was taken over the individual many times because in order for league’s to survive, they need to be run in a socialist fashion. Blatter will have a strong legal team go into the Hague and lobby for special rules regarding football as it is a special case with extraordinary and unique circumstances. Trust me, FIFA and UEFA have a lot of power and influence and I would not be so sure of their failure. People thought the same of baseball and football in the US and those leagues have taken on the government and won many rights over the years, most notably the right to hold socialist drafts for junior players.
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@Red Ranter: I moved everything from my place on the 25th and I still haven’t unpacked. I just finished cleaning out the old place two days ago and I have just said to Hell with it, I need three or four days of rest to regenerate and find my energy again because I am totally wasted from that killer move. Perhaps you need a few days off too mate.
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@Redrich: Poor RR doesn’t deserve that one mate.
I mean he is so opposite me it’s not even funny. And even though we get along when not talking about United, we often have gotten into major battles due to our differences. I am very hard core extreme and he is more passive and thoughtful about things. So to think we are the same person just makes me howl. Poor RR has been called many things but to be called Grognard, well that’s more than I think he can take. 
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@Grognard: I agree. The usual laws and regulations that affect citizens on an everyday basis can often be compromised when it comes to sports.
It’s a different world, and courts are very willing to set aside a new set of rules specifically for these special circumstances.
If FIFA can argue that the 6+5 will be a fairer deal for the players themselves, they’ll stand a good chance of pulling it off!!
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@Grognard: Poor baby!!!
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@Grognard: The Ying and the Yang and the big house move – It all adds up, mate!!
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@Redrich: Fight Club eh
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@jos: Sorry mate, I don’t get the fight club thing???
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As far as I know one thing that most of the people who oppose united forget that, these clubs in France and Portugal mostly have their academies or teams full of player from their counties’ former colonies and most of them are not even French or Portuguese by birth even. They can easily do it or sign that player due to their countries’ former colonial relation, some ancestor and definitly because the better life that they can provide.
The same has happen to them. I mean we are bigger, better and certainly can provide better life to that kid and his family then whats wrong??? I mean we are giving them something back that they do to colonial clubs in opinion… So I don’t think its a wrong doing to the extent it has been made out….
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on a separate topic, i still cant get over the fact that Inter got Etoo and 40M bucks for Ibra! coup of this years transfer market!!
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RE: Jos\n\nFucking fantastic post mate!! I had no idea about the stuff that went on underneath. I personally have no problems with clubs signing 16 year olds. I honestly believe that United wouldn’t sign a player who wants to come just for the money. They would have to show that they had the talent AND the hunger to succeed at United to be signed by us. So, as I see it this is what happens. Joe Foreigner shows promise, United get interested, Joe Foreigner learns of interest and reciprocates it, United offer him a place at the Academy and recognises that at his young age, he needs his family’s support and offers to help his family settle in Manchester. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Kids move with their parents to other countries all the time. This kid is moving WITH his family and getting to develop under far far better coaches. To me, it looks like win-win.\n\nYes, clubs like Le Havre get screwed over by this. But if you can’t provide compelling reasons for kids to stay at your club and reject the big boys, then you just have to accept the compensation and move on. Life’s tough. Get over it.
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All the kids from a very young age join the academies, so even if FA amend their ’90 minute’ radius rule and let the clubs pick up players from other areas, they would still be picking someone from an academy. Wouldn’t that be called ‘poaching’ then?
If tomorrow, United are charged for poaching, the kid and his family would be happy to testify that it was in the best interests of the kid that he grows up training with the best available facilities.
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@Redrich: Have you seen that movie (stars Ed Norton & Brad Pitt – one of the all time great one!). The plot is similar to what you are contriving between groggy & RR.
Otherwise I chanced upon this :
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2009/34/soccer-values-09_Soccer-Team-Valuations_Value.html
Its the valuations from Forbes (we are the richest club with income of USD 160m and revenues of 500+m. Thats mighty!!! Really really well run business. The debt is high but is still comfortably about 50% of the value of the club (the club is worth almost USD 2bn now! Compare it to Arsenal’s – debt is 107% of the value of the club!) The operating income (profits) really surprised me – 160m!!! dont know if it includes proceeds from sales of Ronaldo and Campbell. Also interesting to note is the revenue gap with other so-called big 3 in EPL! About 100m more than Chelsea, 150m more than l’Arse, almost 200m more than pool!!! And Chelsea actually make more money than arse or pool (that surprised me!!!). We make USD 200m more than pool guys!!! Its mind-boggling! Man Utd are gigantic!
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Hey RR, when did fitness first become an advert
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@Grognard, the current legal position in Europe is that sports cannot be exempt from employment law. That means that almost any restriction UEFA or an FA introduce can be challenged. However, once Ireland ratify the Lisbon treaty the legal concept of sport setting it’s own rules comes into EU law. It will take years to draft the legislation mind and, as I understand it, countries can opt-out.
The only short term fix is for the countries involved to allow clubs to offer pro contracts to 16 year olds.
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@Grognard: They have no power over elected prime ministers and chancellors of the countries of the EU. It’s one of the founding blocks of the entire EU project, and will not even consider ammending it for something as frivolous as football. America is a cheap whore who can be bought. Blattini would be laughed out of Brussells.
@Redrich: Except all we need is one player to claim it is a restraint of trade, which it is, and it’ll never happen. Bosman anyone?
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@jos:
I think the Arsenal debt/value is wrong, it should be similar to our’s about 50%. Also once the economy recovers they should be able to wipe out their debt by selling their Highbury development.
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With the 90 minute rule we have no choice. Players only develop playing with and against other players at around their own level or better. The 90 minute rule weakens the clubs crop of players and they end up filling places with players below the required level to make up the numbers. The only way to add players of the right quality to to go abroad.\n\nI’m sure some of the lesser players in our ranks (and in other clubs ranks) would actually develop so much better if they hadn’t ended up at United to make up the numbers. \n\nThe system also seems to be one of the main reasons for the inflated prices of English players as the top clubs get held to ransom over players later on
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@Traverse: They will not amend the rules, they will create new ones just for football. That’s what was done in America. Rules are made to be broken but in cases like these, they are just tweaked with concessions and exceptions to the rule. Football is a major financial entity in Europe and the world and when it knocks on the legal door and demands to be heard, it will be. FIFA have very strong voices and lobbyists on their side.
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barcelona are interested in evans and they r going for 12 million bid
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@owen: Mate, leave tabloid bollocks and redrants separate.
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@owen: as if fergie would sell!!
this fella is going to be awesome
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Ha,ha,ha….Alonso goes to Madrid. What are you gonna do now you fat bastard.
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Apparently some1 says that theres a live interview with that ballague guy on MUTV at half 6, probably just gonna be about the guy tomorrow and i do feel anyway all this silva talk is bollocks but i would be interested to know what if anything he says about all this silva rumours, any1 have MUTV and could tell us what he said if they dont mind. Im not sure this guy knows much about whats going on silva, i think most of what he says is bull but it would be interesting to see what he says about it if he is asked at all.
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@Cyclops-Red: Apparently they want to replace alonso with that poulsen guy at juve. If this is the same poulsen who cost them about £17m and who the fans absolutely couldnt work out how he started then alonso could be a major miss for them. As far as liverpool players i really cant stand them, but alonso was one of about 4 of their players that was a really talented player and one who i would praise because i thought he was an excellent player. He will be a big big miss for them, and if they really are looking at people like this poulsen, cattermole, turner at hull and the like, then honestly i dont see them being as strong as last year, i wouldnt put them out of the title race maybe that would be too hasty, but he will be a big miss and they will need quality to replace him.
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@Grognard: Human rights lawyers seem to run the EU tho, and they’ll shit their pants over any such move.
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