Apr 23
Is the end nigh for shy guy Scholes?
Before we start discussing this United legend and his future at the club, let’s get talk of that magnificent milestone out of the way, as only a typically limelight loathing Paul Scholes would want us to do. I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you but Wednesday’s 2-0 victory over Portsmouth signalled Scholes’ 600th appearance in a Manchester United shirt. For once in your career Paul, take a thoroughly deserved bow.
When you weigh it up, it really is a monumental achievement. With the days of the one club man now looking decidedly bleak, Scholes may well be the last of a dying breed as he joins Ryan Giggs, Bobby Charlton and Bill Foulkes to become only the fourth player in United history to reach 600.
Although has anyone else around here been noticing more than just discreet murmurs of discontent surrounding Scholes and his future at United? Judging by his Twitter account, Mr Red Ranter himself wants shot of him come the end of the current campaign. I mean is this really how we treat our legends of the club or is it simply an unwritten rule that when you get to your mid-thirties, you just can’t cut the mustard at Old Trafford anymore? Fergie undoubtedly still believes that our one-time midfield maestro can continue to roll back the years and although I’m not completely convinced, I’m sure he can still do some sort of job.
It was proof in the pudding the other night that, when afforded the time and space, there aren’t many better midfielders in world football that can effortlessly spray around passes, long or short. The ball through for Carrick to create the second goal against Pompey was both splendid but hardly surprising as we all know just what the former England man is capable of doing with a football. Zidane called Scholes his toughest opponent, Marcello Lippi would’ve built a team around him and Thierry Henry once labelled the Salford-born star as the best player in the Premiership. You can’t argue with that kind of praise.
So why exactly does the jury seem to be out on Scholes, despite his unprecedented devotion and loyalty to the club and his clear ability to still be able to affect a game? Our number 18 certainly won’t get box to box quite like he used to, his legs won’t allow him to start every game even if his head tells him otherwise and he probably won’t score any more than five goals in a season. With Anderson growing in stature with every game, Fletcher developing into a rather valuable first-team member and lest we forget Carrick, Hargreaves and even Giggs who has proved he can be a central figure, Sir Alex has something of a predicament that’s for sure.
Well what would you do? Scholes isn’t a fool and he knows that at 34-years-old and with competition for places at Old Trafford rife, time is running out on his United career. Everyone makes mistakes (I’m talking Craven Cottage ofcourse) and to be fair, this product of our Golden Generation doesn’t make too many. Anderson, Carrick, Fletcher, Hargreaves, even Gibson at a push. They literally roll off the tongue and they all offer something different but are they really streets ahead of the newest member of the 600 club?
Let’s face it, goals like what we witnessed against Barcelona last season will ensure Scholes remains at the club until his contract expires next summer at least and I can’t say I’m gutted about it. I say use him sparingly at Old Trafford and keep him in and around the squad, he deserves that for his unfathomable devotion to Manchester United for starters. Unlike someone of Gary Neville’s persona, the beauty of possessing Paul Scholes is that he will cease to fight a losing battle and I am sure that when the time is right, he’ll know exactly when to call it a day. Surplus or invaluable, opinions will vary, but will the curtain curtail as early as next month? Surely not!
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Tags: Manchester United Players · Opinions/Columns
April 23rd, 2009 at 20:56
I think he has atleast a season left in him. He and Nev might retire in 2010. And FIRST HERE.
April 23rd, 2009 at 21:14
After we’ve got a knighthood for Ryan…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhP5VkvPPlc&feature=channel_page
…we should launch a campaign for Scholes!
April 23rd, 2009 at 21:37
600 is a fantastic milestone, he is without doubt a United legend. I hope he can finish the season strong then retire from the first team. One of the hardest thing in sports is knowing when to call it a career. I have seen several greats tarnish their legacy by sticking around too long. At times it can be detrimental to the team because the coach has a hard time benching him in favor of a younger and more physically gifted player. Sadly scholes is at the end of not only a brilliant career for united but a brilliant career for the premiership in general.
April 23rd, 2009 at 23:05
It’s no secret that I’m not a massive Paul Scholes fan. Don’t get me wrong, I like him and I respect him for he is a long time Red Devil legend but for me he has never floated my boat. Different strokes for different folks. There are those who don’t care for the style of play of Eric Cantona, Ryan Giggs, Ruud van Nistelrooy etc. I just happen to find Paul Scholes a little boring to watch.
The question is should he retire? My answer is yes. But before all you jump down my throat, hear me out. I want him to retire not because he is washed up and can’t play anymore. I want him to retire because he is no longer at the level where he can justify holding back younger and better players who deserve that starting spot or at least more playing time. Football is a young man’s game and player’s in their mid 30’s are rare and even harder to find as starters.
Paul Scholes still has his moments of brilliance where he can command the midfield with precision and incredible ball distribution. But more often than not the modern game with it’s speed, physicality and overall tempo has become a real beast of burden for the Ginger Ninja. More often than not Paul finds it tough to command the midfield and keep up with the young players who are faster and more adept at losing their markers and who are better at marking slower and in Scholes case, aging players. When Scholes matches up well with a weak team and midfield, he usually has a great game and commands the occasion. But that scenario is becoming more and more rare.
The real problem here is that the schedule is long and packed and a player with old legs has a hard time keeping up with players ten to fifteen years younger than him. He just isn’t that box to box attacking midfielder we all remember who could score 15 goals in a season and assist on as many. Today he sits back and defends, continues to make bad tackles and has become addicted to the safe and cautious way of playing the game. Long gone is the attack minded bold player who although he always made the right decision, loved to attack. Today his MO is to bore us with the notoriously dull Scholes back pass. Especially in attack oriented positions. Infuriating is what he has become. Oh sure he delivered a beauty to Carrick the other day but seriously folks, how often have we seen that, and lets not forget again, that it was Pompey we were playing, not Chelsea.
Manchester united has a lot of player on the bench who would love a bigger opportunity to audition for Schole’s position in the center of midfield. Carrick seems to have the one spot bought and paid for, but the other one is open for auditions if Scholes was not around. Fletcher, Anderson, Gibson, Possebon and even Giggsy are fighting for playing time in that position. And down the road we have a world class player who should own that position but due to his injuries and Fergie’s preference for Scholes is also a doubt. That player of course is Owen Hargreaves.
Now I personally do not believe that Anderson, Fletcher and Gibson are good enough to displace Scholes as starter. Giggs is and has on numerous occasions. Possebon I feel has great potential but is a few years away from making a real run for it. That leaves Hargreaves as the lone competition that can really push for the starter role. Where does that leave Scholes and where does that leave the club?
My feeling has always been that Ferguson has been far too loyal and to comfortable with the old guard and despite their ability to still perform on occasion, it is time for at least Scholes and Neville to step aside. In Scholes situation it’s time to fit Hargreaves into that role and if his knees can’t take it, it’s time to scour the market and buy a world class accomplished DMF or CMF to man that position. Enough with the rotation of mediocrity that is Anderson, Fletcher and Gibson. It’s time to spend some money or let Hargo man the position if he is healthy
Scholes has been a great servant but he has overstayed his welcome because he no longer makes the team better with himself out on the pitch. In many games his lack of pace and ambition has become nothing more than a liability. Sure he is still tidy but nothing is ever accomplished out there offensively due to him and defensively he struggles against physical and faster midfields. Sorry but unlike Giggs, he has less to offer in his old age. Giggs can still deliver and against good teams too (the Chelsea 3-0 win is an example), but Scholes saves his best for the West Broms of the world. I don’t care for Anderson and I think Fletcher is limited but I still prefer to see these players play and be given the chance to see if I am wrong. Fergie needs to find the courage to say enough, thanks for the service and for the memories, see ya, wouldn’t want to be ya. Sounds cruel but that time comes to all of us in life and in our careers. Scholes needs to accept it’s over for him unless he confronts Fergie and says to him, I still want to be part of the team but only as a sub and part time starter. In that scenario I for one would more than welcome his stay. But as a full time starter, sorry but that ship has long sailed away.
April 23rd, 2009 at 23:49
I think Scholes will stay as long as SAF wants him. If SAF said it’s time, I’m sure he’ll just clear out his locker and go home – no ceremony, no pomp and certainly no un-retirement down the road!!
April 24th, 2009 at 2:09
I hope Scholesy would go out of the end of the season, for 2 reasons:
1 – he goes out in glory, after we take home the CL and EPL yet again
2- what Grognard said, allow our younger players to be blooded in a timely fashion, It’d be great if he was involved in the club still though, in a development role perhaps, he’s got too much konwledge and experience to go to waste..
on another lighter note, not sure if this link has been posted, but the FSW is at it again with his antics, this time he’s actually quite funny!
rafa’s latest rant
April 24th, 2009 at 3:46
@Natzca: Problem with that however is that just because he has a lot of experience, does not mean he has the ability or temperament and patience to be a coach. Many greats just walk away from the game because they are not into conveying their methods on how to play the game. Greatness as a player does not qualify you as a coach or even as a mentor. Although you are probably right, Scholes is a very quiet and introverted individual therefore, I do not see him staying on as a coach. But you never know.
April 24th, 2009 at 3:47
@Natzca: Sorry mate but your link isn’t working.
April 24th, 2009 at 3:50
I believe this is the article you were referring to. Hopefully this link works.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/apr/23/rafael-benitez-sir-alex-ferguson-row
Rafa is a total idiot with no shame or grasp on reality. An educated intelligent man wouldn’t say something as ludicrous or as stupid as that.
April 24th, 2009 at 4:19
@Grognard: yeh that’s the link, dunno why the tiny url didn’t work well…
but yes, he is an idiot, on so many different levels,
but this article just makes him look a like a school kid trying to feel good about himself when he won’t have any trophies at the end of the season…again…
April 24th, 2009 at 4:22
@Grognard: yeh, he may not go into coaching,
though are they any other roles he could be involved in with player development of some sort?
but at the end of the day, if he wants to live the rest of his life in private, it’s his own choice, and I believe he has more than enough put his heart and soul into this club to warrant nothing more than respect and admiration from all United supporters regardless of what he does in the future.
April 24th, 2009 at 5:34
@Natzca: I don’t know. I just get the feeling and impression that Scholes will walk into the sunset like an old western hero in movies and never be seen again. At least not as a coach or in any other capacity with any club. Giggs on the other hand I believe will end being a manager as will Neville.
April 24th, 2009 at 5:50
where is everyone?
April 24th, 2009 at 7:13
@Grognard: ahh if that’s the case, we’re going to have a theme song for him to play as he walks off…
April 24th, 2009 at 7:14
@johnsom33: wrong time of the day I guess,
it’s friday arvo at work here for me, so I’ve got a bit of time to kill before the weekend
April 24th, 2009 at 7:32
@Natzca: THE HULK SONG
Lol, i can actually see scholes walking into the sunset with the hulk song in the background.
Back to seriousness, i would rather have him as manager then giggs or neville because i reckon he has a better tactical mind, and i reckon he would know how to get the best out of his players. Thats just my gut feeling.
April 24th, 2009 at 7:52
@Dan: Any Paul Scholes coached team would be masters at tidy ball control and the masters of back passing. And the scores would be 0-0 every time out.
April 24th, 2009 at 10:37
April 24th, 2009 at 10:45
@keith: Anderson no disrespect isn’t fit to lace Scholes’s boots.
Paul Scholes is a class act on and off the pitch, he has no agent no bling he simply just gets on with playing football. The greats even agree:
“My toughest opponent? Scholes of Manchester. He is the complete midfielder. Scholes is undoubtedly the greatest midfielder of his generation” – Zinedine Zidane
I tell anyone who asks me – Scholes is the best English player” – Laurent Blanc
Without any doubt the best player in the Premiership has to be Paul Scholes. He knows how to do everything, and he is the one who directs the way his team plays. On top of that, he has indestructible mental strength, and he is a genuine competitor” – Thierry Henry
“People say he is a great player, but you have to define what a great player is. For me, it is a player who has a bottom level that means his worst performance is not noticed. If he is having a bad game, a team-mate might feel Paul Scholes is not quite on his game, but a spectator wouldn’t notice. Scholes, of all the players I have played with, has the highest bottom level. His reading of the game is unsurpassed. He has an eye for a pass, for what the play or the game needs at that precise moment, that I have never seen anyone else have. He controls and distributes the play and the game better than anyone I have ever seen” – Peter Schmeichel
“Everyone of us should emulate him. We can all learn from Paul Scholes” – Edgar Davids
“I have no hesitation in putting a name to the embodiment of all that I think is best about football. It’s Paul Scholes. Many great players have worn the shirt of Manchester United. Players I worshipped, then lost with my youth in Munich. Players like Denis Law and George Best who I enjoyed so much as team-mates and now, finally, players I have watched closely in the Alex Ferguson era. And in so many ways Scholes is my favourite. I love his nous and conviction that he will find a way to win, to make the killer pass or produce the decisive volley. When a game reaches a vital phase, these qualities seem to come out of his every pore. He’s always on the ball, always turning on goal. He’s always looking to bring other people into the action and if he loses possession you think he must be ill” – Sir Bobby Charlton
He and as most people know this (epecially Grog) is my favorite United player of my lifetime, he embodies what is great about United, class.
April 24th, 2009 at 11:39
Scholes is a fantastic player no doubt and was world class well into his 30s. But the last year or two age has got the better of him. He doesn’t have the natural fitness and athleticism of Giggs. In a slower league he could still shine. But in this league very few players can play past 33 and Scholes isn’t one of them.
He is still useful to have as part of a rotation system. But he should be playing fewer minutes next season, and that means either patch up Hargreaves so he can be a first team regular. Or buy a new midfielder.
In fact I think even if Hargreaves is fit to play next season, we could use an attacking midfielder to replicate what Giggs has been doing for us this season. There is so little creativity in this team that players Like Rooney and Berbatov are forced to create chances, when really their job description should be to score goals.
April 24th, 2009 at 11:47
Oh and on Goal.com there are rumours Gourcuff would be available end of the season for £15 million or so. If that is true I think we should snap him up!
April 24th, 2009 at 12:58
A tribute to our Raphael! And a chance to vote for The PFA!
April 24th, 2009 at 13:08
@Stephen: Nice one Stephen, Scholesy is the consummate professional, but his best days are behind him. Lest we forget, he cut short a promising International career to lenghten his United playing tenure. Total dedication. When he does have his testimonial, I’ll be there
April 24th, 2009 at 13:16
@phoenix red: I will be there to, he is a top boy his best years are behind him but in my view he still has something to offer, obviously not in the bigger games but as a support act.
April 24th, 2009 at 13:50
@Grognard: Ideally for me, he continues on for another season, as a sub and talisman on the training ground for our younger players. I think he still has alot to offer in this role.
April 24th, 2009 at 14:11
On other news, congratulations to Roy Keane on his return to football management with Ipswich Town. He’s only been back 5 mins and already a headline maker! I’d say he has learnt a thing or two with Sunderland, so i’ll be following his progress with interest. Football needs colourfull characters, and Keano definitely doesn’t dissappoint there!! Good luck to him.
April 24th, 2009 at 14:20
@phoenix red: I agree I still love Keano and that second leg against Juve in Turin was one of the greatest I have ever seen by a player in a United shirt, trul awesome.
As a manager the jury is still well and truly out, we be interstiing to see how he gets on, but if we need to loan any of our youth players out to get first team football we all know where to go, also sell any of our crap for silly money (£5.5m for Keiron Richardson anyone??!?) We also know where to go
April 24th, 2009 at 14:28
@colver: I’ve been crying out for an attacking Midfielder like Senna for awhile now, its a position the team really needs to address, this type of player could fill the gap between midfield and attack giving Rooney and Berba the impetus to play further up the pitch, closer to goal! This is presuming Hargreaves makes a full recovery. Please come back fighting HARGO!
April 24th, 2009 at 14:31
@Stephen: Not to mention an Old Peoples Home for those who should be retired
See Dwight Yorke
April 24th, 2009 at 14:33
@phoenix red: Wouldn’t call Senna a classic attacking midfielder.
April 24th, 2009 at 15:01
@Stephen: maybe senna wasn’t the best example Bro
April 24th, 2009 at 15:03
I hope we’re all gonna vote in the PFA Player of the year award, our chance to do a bit for our favourites
April 24th, 2009 at 15:16
@Stephen: I should have said Kaka, for the sake of arguement next season:
Foster
Raphael, Rio, Vidic, Fabio
Hargreaves
Ronaldo, Kaka, Ribery
Rooney, Berbatov
I know this is FM stuff and maybe would need more defensive balance,
but we can only dream,
ATTACK, ATTACK, ATTACK
April 24th, 2009 at 15:37
@phoenix red: Ha ha our games would end 6-7!!
April 24th, 2009 at 15:41
@Grognard: An excellent, thorough analysis analysis, even if the language came off as harsh in parts. I cosign your view on Flecther and Gibson, too average to displace scholes, but I cannot understand your constant objections to Anderson. He’s young, still learning his role, developing a function within out system. Some concession should be given to the inevitable fallbacks of youth. I sincerely believe that phelan’s tactical ineptitude, an area we all know Fergie needs to be complemented in, may be one reason for his confusing and inconsistent play; that in addition to the syndrome of inexperience all youth display in a different variations, makes him seem unfit for us. To me thouth, he obviously has a fanastic eye for a through ball, a good range of passing, great defensive instincts in the mode of Viera, an excellent center of gravity, and loads of energy and a creative mind. Once he assembles these in correct porportions and overcomes his inadequancies, he will be a tremendous player. The pontential is there, Queiroz obviously had the tools to hone and focus it. and i only his second season. The advantage of youth is that you can always turn around a stasis or deceleration in progress.
As for Scholes, I think being an Oldham fan, he should move there at the end of the season. Play for the other club of which he is a self professed fan.
April 24th, 2009 at 15:59
@Roge9: Are you blaming Phelan for Anderson’s poor form, really I think you are looking to portion blame.
If an assistant manager can be blamed for a players poor form then I am a Dipper, regardless of what team.
Do we blame the Queiroz for Anderson’s drop in form the after Xmas last season? or blame Pat Rice for Adebeyor’s poor start to this season?, I think not, sometimes we have to look at the player.
April 24th, 2009 at 16:00
Crikey, Frank Lampard has just forced me to respect him….
April 24th, 2009 at 16:23
Also to back up may comment about Anderson not being anywhere near the player Scholes was or even is, in Scholes’s first two seasons when he was almost the same age as Anderson he scored 21 goals in 56 games, Anderson has played 67 games with ZERO goals, not really his “replacement” would you say.
April 24th, 2009 at 16:27
@Roge9: I agree with your assesment of Anderson, he is inconsistent and frustrating now but your right he has all the pieces to be good. The battle with him is to figure out how to put all the pieces together.
April 24th, 2009 at 16:41
@Stephen: first of all let me just say that scholes is a once in a generation legend so the odds of finding a succesor who is going to be his equal are slim to none. So when you look at our books Anderson is the best we got to play that position. I also think you guys don’t give Anderson enough credit for him converting to a defensive midfielder. He came in as a attacking in the hole Brazilian midfielder and fergie put him in a position entirely against his instincts. I know it’s hard for you guys to belive that he has any attacking talent based on what you see but he does. Attacking is what he does naturally, but he is told to do something else, and so it’s hard for a player to do one thing while the coach is constantly reinforcing another. When most players have a dip in confidence they usually just focus on doing what the coach says because they lack the self belief in their instincts. I think this is the battle you are seeing with Anderson and it’s why I beileve be needs more of a consistent run out so that he can get a better feel of how to balance the coaches orders and his natural creativity.
Having said all that it could be true that he is just not good enough or lacks the temperment to suceed here. I would argue that the only way to see is to give him time. Same goes for nani.
April 24th, 2009 at 16:54
@Johnsom33: I believe Anderson is an old fashioned box to box midfielder, simple. For an attacking midfielder he should be able to shoot which he simply can’t do, so you can’t blame Fergie the stats don’t lie, it’s like having a goalkeeper who can’t catch.
I agree though about his temprement, he probably could be a good player but at the moment United is simply too big a club for him.
April 24th, 2009 at 17:11
@Stephen: I would counter that he has scored at every other club before here. his biggest problem is composure, he is rarely in position to score so when he does get in position he makes a meal of it. Also the burden of not scoring is getting heavier and heavier, its in his head now and I just hope its not too late to get the monkey of his back.
April 24th, 2009 at 17:13
@Stephen: he is also a excellent penalty shot taker, so he can strike the ball well, its his panicking in the box that lets him down. he is as shaq would say “A mster of panic”
April 24th, 2009 at 17:16
@johnsom33: To be fair Johnson two goals for Porto and one for Grêmio is hardly prolific is it? But 67 games and none for us to so far his legacy which is at best poor.
If not scoring is becomming a burden and his head is not right then he really isn’t at the right club, like you I think if he can get just one then he will get a few.
April 24th, 2009 at 17:16
@johnsom33: Ha ha quility mate!
April 24th, 2009 at 17:19
@Stephen: notice i very carely stated “may be one reason.” Anderson has a part in his poor performance, but that’s obvious enough for me to not have to allude to it. I’m only making the observation that under the guidance of Queiroz anderson’s play was more focused, deliberate and effective. A similar thing can be said of the team. Last season we were more adventurous and organized. Alot of that was openly attributed to Queiroz scientific and theoretical pragmatism and from what I hear, excellent training regiment. I don’t believe phelan brings a similar dynamic and i think that is part of the reason players like Nani and anderson have not progressed as expected. Of course Phelan is not responsible, but i think he is a weak deputy unable to execute useful ideas to supplement SAFs. And given that fergie is more hands off than before, it seems the players lack the effective leadership coaching wise to improve.
April 24th, 2009 at 17:26
@Roge9: We did win a few things before CQ if you remember and also he has chosen to jump shiip twice which obviously his prerogative, and lets be honest how do we know what Phelan contributes or doest contribute to the team?
Should he get credit for the defensive record we set this season? Should he get credit for the fact we could win 4 trophies this season? for the emergence of Macheda and Raphael, Welbeck, Gibson, Evans, Fabio, obviously not so we simply can’t blame him for Nani and Anderson’s drop in form, the players themselves have to to their own responsibilities for their lack of form sometimes, also they are young and inconsistant.
April 24th, 2009 at 18:00
@ home, no one can touch Scholesy when it comes to games against the likes of Portsmouth etc. against those teams @ Old Trafford he can truly orchestrate as most teams step off him & give him that extra yard he needs to show his brilliance.
the problem for Scholes simply is that against the Chelsea’s & Liverpools etc. he can be out-muscled-&-out-paced, although never out-classed. the game has just become too quick for him in alot of circumstances, & this isn’t his fault it’s simply that as the Premiership has got quicker, technique has taken a back seat. accompany that with the fact that Carrick refuses to take hold of games like we all know he should do means we can often seem to have 2 passive midfielders on the pitch @ times.
he has another year in him but if Hargreaves can return with any semblance of consistency he has to have a place @ the heart of the midfield alongside Carrick or-a-nother imo. his battling characteristics balanced with his under-estimated ability has been missed @ key times this season.
Scholes is in a far better position then say Gary Neville who since his return has probably played 20minutes of ‘good’ football so there’s no reason he shouldn’t go on for another year, whether i’d pick him to start in a Champions League Final these days is another question though.
April 24th, 2009 at 18:04
@Stephen: he was poached from gremio after 6 games, and only played 18 games for Porto. and no one here is suggesting the boy was ever or will ever be prolific. Im not quite sure where your getting the 67 games from, 38 according to wikipedia. that being said 38 games is more than enough games to bag a goal or two
christ even Pique scored!
April 24th, 2009 at 18:09
@johnsom33: He played 38 last season and 29 this season mate, also Djemba Djemba even scored!
April 24th, 2009 at 18:17
@Stephen: Nice writeup mate. I feel your love for the guy. All the more reason fot him to retire while he’s still seemingly on top. The more he sticks around and disappoints, the more his legacy and legend gets tarnished. Sometimes players need to be told when it’s time to go. Nothing sadder than when a legend overstays his welcome and actually becomes somewhat of a liability to the team. And regardless of whether the younger players behind him are better or not, they are being hindered and held back from improving and progressing by a player who has not yet figured out that he no longer has what it takes to compete against the best teams.
No he has never been one of my favorites but I have always respected him and liked him as a dependable and quality United player. I for one feel it’s time to hang the boots up and walk that lonely road home. He has nothing more to prove. His reputation is still intact and he will go down as one of the best ever. Only he can tarnish it by playing well past his expiry date.
April 24th, 2009 at 18:22
@phoenix red: I did suggest that in my long entry but I am not sure he is the coaching type. He is kind of quiet and a bit of a loner in personality. Teaching others or instructing to a group or one on one just doesn’t sound like something he would be comfortable with. And I seriously doubt that he has ever contributed in that area up to now. If he had, we would have seen far more improvement in Anderson and even Nani. I just think the guy is a very quiet and shy person who is not cut out for the extroverted duty of coach or mentor.
April 24th, 2009 at 18:24
@phoenix red: Senna is not an attacking midfielder. He’s a defensive midfielder who happens to have the ability to go box to box and deliver a cannon like long range shot. He would be ideal except for the fact he’s too old.
April 24th, 2009 at 18:34
What does winning things before CQ have to do with my argument? Nothing. Lets say in context
The demands of the present squad is not the same as in the past. Phelan simply isnt the man to head a coaching staff responsible for such a diverse body of players. That we don’t know what he contributes is the problem, considering he is the most high profile #2 in the world. At least we had some functional impression of CQs role and worth. And to me he seemed better able to help players manifest their potential.
Our defensive record went to shite when teams grew bold enough to attack us. And while on course for 4 trophies, the manner of pursuit has not been the most impressive. There’s been a chorus of complaints on this site regarding our style of play this season.
Furthermore, I’ve said that anderson is the one most responsible for his form, but you can fault his effort and hunger, so something else has to give.
April 24th, 2009 at 18:35
@Stephen:
Also, CQ left us to manage Real Madrid and Portugal, how many coaches could have resisted overtures from such institutions. It’s not like he left us to manage Barnsley…
April 24th, 2009 at 18:46
@Stephen: 24 last season 13 this season
April 24th, 2009 at 18:51
@Roge9: Are you because he is English and not foreign?
Also he could have left to manage Mars as far I am concerned leaving us once was bad, he scurried back tail between legs then deserted again his choice.
April 24th, 2009 at 18:54
@Grognard: I do agree but his influence around some of the younger players could be useful though.
April 24th, 2009 at 18:56
@Stephen: Anyone who would rather stay a number 2 than get a chance to coach at Real Madrid or for his country just lacks ambition. I dont take it as a slight at all. I would welcome him back with open arms right now.
April 24th, 2009 at 18:57
@johnsom33: I am a true muppet!
April 24th, 2009 at 18:58
@johnsom33: Never mate what happens if Inter offer him a job he will desert again, I am not saying Phelan is a great number 2 far from it, but there are other options bar the deserter.
April 24th, 2009 at 19:07
Wooooooooooo our lucky mascot is back – WESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS BROWN! Welcome back Wes Bro, I know the L’fool would NEVER have scored 4 if you had been in the team. Wes = Immense for United.
April 24th, 2009 at 19:08
@Roge9: My problems with Anderson have everything to do with several factors. Some are very valid, and a few I admit are just my unreasonable bias against him. Lets go over them now;
1. Anderson lacks finesse. A god given skill that is hard to find in players but when they have it, they can be dynamic. Examples of present day central midfielders with finesse would be Riquelme, Diego, Iniesta, Kaka, Fabregas, Arshavin, Scholes, Lampard, Ballack and van der Vaart.
2. Anderson is rather uncoordinated as an athlete. Having been a pretty decent athlete and 5 sport player in my day, I am very good at recognizing the athlete that is all thumbs or who has two left feet. Anderson is a clod (a clutz). If you threw a ball at him and asked him to catch it, he’d drop it and look idiotic doing it. All he offers as I see it is being a ball of energy, that doesn’t have a lot of body control and FINESSE.
3. Anderson only knows one speed, full speed. The one dimensional blue collar English mentality loves this in him but I see it as limiting, far too predictable and easy to counter. Sure he hustles and he is a fine dribbler at full speed, but he has no ability to change the tempo of a game or to slow up a situation and then allow himself to add the finesse or alternate thinking on the go that so many of the above named players can.
3. Where is his technique when it comes to threading a short pass through defenders or trying a lob pass or an accurate back heel or side foot pass? All you ever get from him is the long range through ball which I admit he is good at but that he telegraphs and tries far too often.
4. How often do I see him run with the ball and do a tremendous job with his wide body and big ass of shielding it from an opponent but then he just stupidly gives the ball away or he runs himself into a corner where three defenders are there to dispossess him of the ball? Part of that comes from the fact he dribbles the ball at full speed with his head down. If he had his head up more often, he would look and see where the pressure points are and alter his speed and focus in terms of delivering the ball to an open player.
5. The man has got to be the most uncoordinated and dumbest player I have ever seen when it comes to striking a ball. His shooting accuracy and poor mechanics has become the thing of legend and after almost two full seasons with United, I don’t see any, and I mean ZERO improvement. I find it hard to believe that in two years no coaches or players have helped him or worked with his poor decision making and poor mechanics in shooting a ball. And if they have worked with him, why is there no improvement? It’s either because he is as dumb as a bag of nails, he’s too stubborn to listen or he just doesn’t have the coordination and physical ability to strike a ball like a true athletes with those abilities. Coordination brings proper mechanics within an athlete. Many great athletes do not possess great hand and eye coordination or foot to eye coordination. Sometimes the positions they play in sports don’t require it. An offensive or defensive lineman doesn’t need to possess great coordination to succeed. He needs speed, power and the ability to think. A central defender in footy or defenseman in hockey don’t have to be that great in that department either and usually, the reason they play those positions is because they lack the coordination and finesse to thrive at another more demanding position.
During the last game I recall a moment when Anderson had the ball on the left side and was dribbling into the Pompey third of the pitch when he decided to attempt a cross into the box. The pressure was not severe on him and he had all the time in the world to make that cross. So what happens? Anderson completely muffs the cross. He fanned on the ball and fell down. His mechanics were those of a bloke who has never played the game before and who is asked to try the very same thing. It was truly comical. That moment for me encapsulated all the misses, and bloopers this lad offers up every season. Sure he does have his moments and as a player he does try hard and run hard. But there is more to football than just running hard. Many of you have got to get your heads out of this infantile English blue collar mentality that rewards a player just for trying hard and working his ass off. Football is a game of skill and work ethic is only a fraction of what is required. In fact, if one is very gifted like a Riquelme, work ethic is often not even necessary in order to make a major contribution to a game. Too many coaches and managers are often blinded over the work ethic of players and they too often reward those who run really hard but have no skill and cannot deliver a pass, a cross or a shot and lack the finesse and vision to cut open a defense. I have no use for players like that and that is what I see in Anderson. An uncoordinated athlete who lacks the real god given skills and abilities that are needed to be a starter for a top flight team like Man Utd. Sure he can come in as a sub and be an injection of energy when things look to slow or we seem to be giving our opponents too much time on the ball, but other than that, he offers very little other than comic relief.
I know that many of you who read this will not agree with me. That’s fine. I’m just going to say that I take my ability to judge player talent seriously and although this may come across as arrogant, I am rarely wrong. I would love ot be proven wrong when it comes to Anderson, but after two seasons, I have seen nothing that makes me feel this player will ever amount to a hill of beans. He’s overrated and not the kind of player that will be able to elevate and improve his game. If he was 17 or 18 I might be a little more optimistic but he is in his 20’s and as far as I’ve seen, he is a lot of hot air. Much ado about nothing.
Crucify me if you must but I just don’t see this player being the be all and do all that this team needs in central midfield. He has his moments but more often than not, it’s not that much and it totally disappears by the time the second half starts. And finally to add salt to the wounds I have opened, the boy needs a serious appointment with a barber. He needs to get rid of that clown shoes hairstyle he is wearing. It’s time to be a man and look like a man. OK, so that’s a little bit of my old school fascism coming out of me. So sue me.
April 24th, 2009 at 19:10
@Stephen: Stop worrying Bro – nobody will offer him a top job after Real M and now Portugal! He did well for us as No2, and he was especially good getting alongside and encouraging our Latino’s.
April 24th, 2009 at 19:11
I hope we loan out possebon to wolves next season, make or break for him next season, he should move to a premier league club, not the crappy SPL.
To be totally honest, i dont rate him, his nationality is the only thing going for him, and hes not even going to play for brazil!
April 24th, 2009 at 19:12
@Stephen: Absolutely. A player who in two years has yet to score a goal and rarely even gets his shots on goal has other serious issues that no coach can remedy. How about the fact that in two seasons i have yet to see him offer up a lob pass or any other form of finesse in his attacking game. I don’t blame Queiroz, Phelan or any coach for that. I blame Fergie for signing the pillock in the first place and then moving him out of his best position. Yet I find it hard to believe that this boy at 17 was a star left midfielder/winger. He has so so speed, is a decent dribbler but can’t cross worth shit.
April 24th, 2009 at 19:12
@Babyface: Please explain.
April 24th, 2009 at 19:13
@Grognard: “Only he can tarnish it by playing well past his expiry date.”
Exactly mate. The last thing he would want to do is to weaken his team. I must say that he has not fallen so far as to sabotage a United performance, but I sometimes feel he is holding us back. To go out on a high, respectfully, with the team being able to miss what he can give (not what he HAS given)…that is a fitting end to a stellar career. (unlike, sadly, Gary Neville, who I never liked as a player, and am glad is out injured)
I feel that his lack of goals this season and last is a telling factor that Scholes really isn’t the player that used to terrorize defenses. Stephen mentioned the Peter Schmeichel quote on Scholes’ “bottom level’, and I think that bottom level has dropped dramatically over the last two seasons. He disappears in games far more often these days. He has played for us the least times this season (17) compared to any other season in his United career, so I think Fergie is slowly withdrawing him like we want, but not drastically pulling the handbrake, as some might desire.
Exactly when IS Scholes’ expiry date? Has it passed? Is it now? Is it coming? I think our prognosis of his playing time should depend on this factor. I think this season is the last we will see of him being anywhere in the league of where he used to be. My guess is that next season, his decline will be much steeper, and by May 2010 he will have reached his expiry date. Assuming so, do we let him retire end of this season, before his ‘expiry date’, or right at the brink of it, at the end of next season?
April 24th, 2009 at 19:13
@Stephen: Another great point. Only the most useless and most uncoordinated player in history could go two seasons with the best club in the world and not score.
April 24th, 2009 at 19:15
@Johnsom33: And please mate, tell me what all these pieces may be? Other than speed, dribbling at high speed and shielding the ball with his big ass, what are these pieces? What?
April 24th, 2009 at 19:17
@Grognard: “after two seasons, I have seen nothing that makes me feel this player will ever amount to a hill of beans”
Harsh, very harsh, but funny.
I laughed out loud reading that. I think that sentence alone sums up your impression of the lad.
April 24th, 2009 at 19:19
@johnsom33: If you can’t find the composure to score just one goal in two years for the best club in thw world, it tells me you should be playing for Gremio or Benfica, not for Manchester United. He is not the quality player he was billed as and isn’t even close to being the 5th best central midfielder on United. I’d pick Scholes, Giggs, Fletcher, Carrick, Gibson and Possebon over him every day of the week.
April 24th, 2009 at 19:19
@Grognard: thats your problem grognard, you think its all about goals with every player other then defenders.
Anderson is the player that makes the pass, to the player who gets the assist more often then not, as seen on wednesday.
He will definitely be an automatic starter in 2 years.
April 24th, 2009 at 19:20
@johnsom33: And that alone makes him unworthy to wear the United kit. We have world class players here, not panic stricken wannabe’s with limited skills.
April 24th, 2009 at 19:21
@Craig Mc: He has left my club bro to “further his career” he has made his bed and he must lie in it I am afriad.
@Grognard: He can’t finish over a hookers face matey!
April 24th, 2009 at 19:21
@Stephen: How on earth did you manage to double the number of Anderson’s performances?? He’s invisible enough already!
April 24th, 2009 at 19:23
@Roge9: Effort and hunger only make up 40% of what is needed by a professional footballer at the highest level. He can get away with what he has and be a star in the Coca Cola league, but in the Prem or in the CL, we expect and demand a Hell of a lot more.
April 24th, 2009 at 19:24
@Stephen: I don’t see how his influence has done anything for Anderson in two years.
April 24th, 2009 at 19:25
@Grognard: We also paid over £18m for him, great energy yes, but so does Lee Cattermole.
April 24th, 2009 at 19:27
@Grognard: Certainly not on his shooting
, but maybe to understand the history of the club, and how to behave.
April 24th, 2009 at 19:30
@Jon: Well said Jon. The biggest slide in Scholes game has been in his ability to go box to box. He just cannot do that any more. His legs are gone and so if he cannot influence us on the offensive end of the pitch, then it’s time to retire or to take a seat on the subs bench full time. His defense and tackling have never been good enough so if his offensive contributions are not there, then he truly is holding others back.
And yet again I find you are a clone of the Grognard in your thinking because I too have never been a fan of Gary Neville. I don’t know why, but Neville has just never done it for me. I can only remember the defensive errors he would make and never the strong offensive runs and crosses. In comparison to Neville, Scholes is an idol for me.
April 24th, 2009 at 19:35
@Dan: No Dan, it’s your problem, Anderson is dead to me so he is your problem. And once again you never really bothered to read my post because I pointed out way too many reasons for my not being an Anderson fan and goal scoring was only the last one. I couldn’t care less about the goals if he offered the other skills and attributes that I feel are necessary. But you choose to selectively read my posts without reading them and then make and asinine comment like that. I expect more from you Dan. When you come to a gun fight, don’t bring a fork. In the future, do me the courtesy of reading my entire post before you reply with your own bias.
And yes, he will be an automatic starter in two years. For Porto or Benfica.
April 24th, 2009 at 19:37
@Stephen: Yes, she wouldn’t have to worry about washing her hair.
April 24th, 2009 at 19:38
@Stephen: We paid exactly 16 million more than he is worth. Hell, Titus Bramble has more skill.
April 24th, 2009 at 19:42
I know some1 mentioned this yesterday but i watched it for the first time, what a goal by the young kid. From what ive seen of him he does look a talent, even tho i admit all i have seen is youtube clips which is nothing. Anyway a few of these type goals when you join us would be much appreciated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S14poFpDCsI
April 24th, 2009 at 19:55
@Grognard:
If anyone spoke to you like that, the world would be against you and would be poking fun but thats another story.
I did read your whole post, ever since anderson came to united your main argument has been he cant score, which is why i was arguing its not all about scoring.
the only other point you mentioned was he cant cross, which i dont agree with.
You dont like him, but the things you dont like him for i just dont see, its because your faviourte players are playing for other teams, and anderson is playing for united, if anyone is bias, its you!
April 24th, 2009 at 19:57
@Grognard: Thats not an exaggeration at all is it
I bet titus bramble could mark out fabregas and gerrard in a game 
April 24th, 2009 at 20:12
@Grognard: Im not even gonna get into a debate with you about Anderson because you ceased being objective about him weeks ago. I will finish with this tho. You say you have seen nothing from him in 2 years that suggest he is good, yet earlier in the season you liked his progression and you even agreed with me that he was starting to get a little swagger about himself… Then fergie told him to go in the corner and play quietly with nani
You had a knee jerk reaction about the kid after the Porto game and you fiercely defended your reaction against the majority. Now that you have your heels dug in, you won’t give him an inch of credit because your stubborn and have a lot of pride I’m yourself. Take it from me my friend, stubborn pride has been my best friend and my worst enemy thus far in life. But with you being nearly twice my age and therefore twice as wise I’m confident you know that all too well.
April 24th, 2009 at 20:19
[...] Is the End Nigh for Scholes? [...]
April 24th, 2009 at 20:33
@Johnsom33: too right!
April 24th, 2009 at 20:33
@Grognard: Grognard, i would really love to know what you perceive is a good player, like in your eyes what constitutes a great player because i’ve tried on numerous occasions, i even thought that scholes would fit the bill that i concocted, but now i have no idea, so seriously what is it, because if scholes is not a player that get’s your heart pumping, then i really have no idea what is,
so please do enlighten us
April 24th, 2009 at 20:34
@Grognard: He’s referring to this.
I don’t want to copy paste the whole article here because it will ultimately contribute towards making this page load slower but here’s the gist. A radio show host lashed out at Lampard making some personal remarks, calling him scum for ‘failing to take care of his children’ because his partner split.
Now I may not necessarily be a fan of Fat Frank, but I give him credit for coming on radio and calling this RJ out on it. Footballers are public figures, but we do not know enough about them to be passing judgements on their personal lives. We have a right to comment about their footballing career but shouldn’t push our luck by making presumptions, on people we barely know, on their personal lives.
Props to Lamps for having a good go at that self righteous prick.
April 24th, 2009 at 20:36
@Matt: ive wathced a lot of videos of Ljaic and i must admit he does look like a top prospect, i just wish we all knew what the hell is going on with tosic
April 24th, 2009 at 20:43
@Mr.Muhozi: Eastern europeans, no offence grognard, but i think its pretty fair to say you largely prefer eastern europeans(specifically germans) to the rest of the world.
April 24th, 2009 at 20:56
@Mr.Muhozi: Be patient with tosic, he got here months ago. I think at times we forget that We support the top club in the world. Breaing into the first XI of the best team in the world is a daunting task, and that doesnt even take into account the pressure that is on the players to win. I am guilty of this often, its just so hard to fathom the weight placed on a young mans shoulders when he pulls on the Red jersey(and not the knock off liverscu one).
April 24th, 2009 at 21:14
@johnsom33: i know mate, i often do have high expectations, though i am patient i can not wait for him to break into the first team, though i must say, if he is the reason fergie is destroying nani, i really can not wait to see him play
i must agree with your assessment about anderson, it’s a shame grognard does not, i have seen anderson since the under 17 world cup tournament and i believe, no i know he has a lot more to offer us, especially when it comes to tricks and skills which i wonder why he has abandoned because that is what made him such a great prospect, his tricks followed by an explosive burst of speed was his game until he got injured playing for porto, afterwards he toned it down but now it seems like its come to a complete stop since he joined united
April 24th, 2009 at 21:24
@Dan: funny you say that, because last time i checked Vidic was E.E, give him time
p.s: Germans are Western European not eastern, plus you must accept everyone will have a biased to a certain type of player, whether its country colour religion or background, everyone will have a bias, for me it is brasilians yours is probably united youth players such as welbeck
April 24th, 2009 at 21:25
I expect a fierce reponse from grognard, and to be honest, i dont blame him, fight for what you believe in! But everyone else has that same right also.
April 24th, 2009 at 21:34
@Mr.Muhozi: I cant make any sense of your comment. vidic is E.E, and grognard thinks vidic is a great defender, so why bring him up
and germany is technically in central europe, but i personaly consider them eastern, and its one thing to have bias, then another to have your bias effect all decisions.
I have a bias to youth players, i think Lijaic is a great player that could make it here, but if kaka or even L.Diarra came knocking, do you think i would start over those two? no is your answer!
Where as grognard seems like the type of person who would start frings over carrick!
April 24th, 2009 at 21:42
@Dan: oh i got confused with what you said, i thought your reply was for what i said about tosic, meaning since he is eastern european he won’t make it, but now i know what the reply was for the what does gorgnard consider a good player. my mistake
And yeah i understand what you mean, i have an affinity towards youth too, but youth will never takeover a proven player, but it is crazy to slag of a youth player who is just 20 and has won numerous youth awards that has previously won by players such as Fabregas, Torres Aguero and Messi
April 24th, 2009 at 21:49
@Mr.Muhozi: Exactly! anderson is a beast of a player that is only really getting his chance this season NOW at the end. I mean if you think about it, its like hes been in hibernation this season and hes just woken up!
*waits for someone to pull out stats*
Do you even know what games he was playing in? he and nani have been non-existent this season.
April 24th, 2009 at 21:55
@Mr.Muhozi: and @Dan:
I have been following Anderson since his Gremio days and was way excited when United signed him… Came as a huge surprise at the time!
The only disappoint for us Anderson fans is that we know how much more he has to offer… His potential is scary.
And I mean he has won the Tuttosport award and these guys must atleast have a bit of on eye for young talent right!
April 24th, 2009 at 22:03
I just feel that our United players aren’t always appreciated buy us fans.
If you can play for the best club in the world, you must be doing something right.
If we forever moaning about our players or assistant manager or tactics then why bother supporting Us… Thank Goodness we don’t support Liverpool!!
April 24th, 2009 at 22:05
@MoYa: Exactly, i generally think andy has the world at his feet, he is almost the complete box-to-box midfielder, he cant put in the tackle, out muscle ANY man, he can run with the ball, he is a great first touch(which can be inconsistent at times though) he can play the through balls, accurately, he can pass long or short, its just that for some reason, he cant score!
Hes a big, big talent and i cannot for the life of me see what people have against him!
Maybe its the fact the the papers said hes the next dinho, well to be honest, if we faced milan, it wouldnt be that strange of a bet to say andy marks dinho out of the game!
April 24th, 2009 at 22:11
@Dan: i do not want to get ahead of myself with anderson he is not a beast YET, i am a massive MASSIVE fan of him i always get excited whenever i see him on the starting 11 and i believe our midfield has been much much stronger ever since he got the role i just wish he would play with “Mais Que Nada” which he has an abundance off but rarely uses these days, maybe it will come with more matches, but i also have noticed ronaldo does less stepovers and skills these days too, i guess its instructions from the coaches
April 24th, 2009 at 22:14
@Dan:
I also think his injury might have put him a bit back because before that my word he was turning into a monster.
He has tremendous talent and the fight in him to go with that.
Also nobody knew of his defensive skill until Fergie put him as a holding mid. I notice with a lot of young players managers tend to play them out of position to broaden their games.
We see now this season that Fergie is giving him a much more attacking role at times.
April 24th, 2009 at 22:15
@MoYa: that makes two of us, even though he only played 5 matches for the tricolor all those games he made an impact, especially that goal that won them relegation which i must admit was just incredible
im not going to try convert grognard, i’ve tried numerous times but the guy can be stubborn, this is one of those cases where only anderson can make grognard and other fans a believer, though i doubt it should not take too long
April 24th, 2009 at 22:18
@Dan: Ever since Anderson has shown up my argument over him have always been about a lot more than his not scoring. But it was his non scoring that I could always throw a joke out about and I guess that is why your selective memory has chosen to only concentrate on that. I have had major issues about Anderson since day one. He’s a clod and I hate players like that. The fact you can’t see what I see is not my concern mate. You go on fooling yourself and we’ll see who is right in two or three years. Just remember who was right about Arshavin and who is right about Huntelaar despite your weak argument against him.
April 24th, 2009 at 22:21
@Dan: Well of course it was an exaggeration. Only a humorless individual who takes everything I say so seriously would think otherwise. But it was a an exaggeration designed to get my point across. Mission accomplished I think.
April 24th, 2009 at 22:22
@Grognard: i guess you do have a dislike of the poor lad, but i really want to know, what in your eyes constitutes a good player, i want the truth the whole truth so help me god, and i can handle the truth too
April 24th, 2009 at 22:24
@Mr.Muhozi:
Sometimes I’m not sure what it takes for a player to win fans over… Generally it is goals… Which unfortunately for Anderson just don’t seem to be coming his way.
But fans in general have a high opinion of him, as we hear them singing his song… Even when he doesn’t play!!
His hunger and raw talent are appreciated.
April 24th, 2009 at 22:26
@Johnsom33: I admit he teased me there for two game sin a row but then he went away and came back and showed me nothing. I am entitled to feel anyway about a player and I refuse to apologize or defend myself just because a certain player doesn’t float my boat. Christ there have been people on this blog who have called Cruyff and Maradona crap. Grill them for their sanity. There is nothing wrong with me mate. I am a Hell of a good judge of talent and I have a track record of players I predicted greatness for and 95% panned out. IF you and others think differently, I respect that and that’s OK. I’ll just let time be the judge of whether I am right or wrong.
As for knee jerk reactions, we all have them and I am no different. But I having been bitching about Anderson for two seasons now. How quickly that is forgotten and only a two game period where I praised him is remembered.
April 24th, 2009 at 22:29
@Grognard:
I think you should just be a little patient with Anderson mate.
He’s only 21 and in his second season. I dont think there are many better players in his position in his age category… Would be impressed though if you could name a few, Icant really think of any
April 24th, 2009 at 22:34
Ander-son-son-son, shake pineapple off a tree,
.
Anderson-son-son-son HE CAN SCORE A PENALTY.
When we played the pool he made Gerrard look a fool,
Anderson-son-son-son, another season and he’ll RULE.
Up yours all you doubters
April 24th, 2009 at 22:34
this is our best midfield partnership, look at anderson putting off lehman whilst hargo scores CLASSIC
April 24th, 2009 at 22:53
@Mr.Muhozi: Scholes used to be a player that had a lot of the tools but I thought he was inconsistent and that he was easily taken out of games physically. I also thought he was a dirty little shit with some of his terrible tackles. What I loved about him was his passing and a good low hard shot.
What do I look for in a player. How about making it a little easier. What do I look for in a central midfielder.
1. Finesse; I like players who have a varied arsenal of tricks up their sleeves. Lob passes, through balls, one touch passes, flick on’s, back heels, chips, hard shots, placed shots and some ability in the air.
2. Aggressiveness; I like a box to box player who can make a tough hard challenge but who also is not afraid of getting in the middle of things or afraid to make his presence felt in the box and in the air.
3. I like CMF, AMF and DMF’s who have the ability to make free kicks well both in a direct and indirect way. Accuracy, power and above all imagination.
4. Vision and imagination; The most important qualities a midfielder can have. The ideas and method to dissect a defense with the wide variety of passes I mentioned above and to be able to do it consistently and especially against the top opponents.
5. Class; A player who carries himself with a certain dignity and with a certain amount of pride. Also, I am not into the workaholic type of midfielder who just uselessly uses up energy for no practical reason (aka Mr. Anderson). I believe in players who can turn it on when they have to.
6. Ability to change tempo and speed of the game; Mr Anderson only knows fast and faster, he has no finesse and no focus and therefore he has no clue like a Scholes when it’s necessary to slow a game down or send the ball to the opposite side to eleviate pressure.
7. Common sense; Having the smarts to know that if you make a long fast run with the ball, have a plan and have an escape plan. Anderson continuously runs himself into a hole that he can’t extricate himself from. You don’t see that from Scholes or Carrick. Only Evra and Anderson as well as Tevez have a habit of dribbling into a trap and then having no exit strategy. They are worse than the Americans in Iraq.
8. Coordination and ball control skills that are called upon in tight situations when there are no other options. Ronaldo, Rooney, Giggs, Nani all have this but it’s a tough one to find in central midfielders.
Now here is a list of the midfielders who basically have passed my skill test and who have 90% or more of the needed skills I am asking for. Note that I never stressed the defensive end of things because Anderson is not a defensive midfielder.
Riquelme, Ballack, Lampoard, Deco, Gerrard, Fabregas, Arshavin, Xavi, van der Vaart, Sneijder, Diego, Marin, Moutinho, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Iniesta, Scholes (Pre 2005), Amazingly off the top of my head I cannot think of an Italian midfielder or even Argentine other than Riquelme who qualify perfectly in this category. Of the classic players there is Zidane, Netzer, Neeskens, Beckenbauer (he often played midfield and was a midfielder before 1970), Socrates, Zico, Maradona, Ardiles, Cubillas, Platini, Giresse, Gullit, Nedved, Hoddle, Charlton and Gasgoigne etc etc.
All world class players and all finesse players with imagination and vision. They see the game in slow motion and react to something before it even happens. They see the game a second or two ahead of the rest.
Anderson doesn’t even see the game. Instead his head is always down or that fucking ugly snake pit of hairdo is in his eyes.
April 24th, 2009 at 22:54
Grog, who were in the 5% that you got wrong, be honest?
April 24th, 2009 at 22:54
@Mr.Muhozi: Oh and I haven’t forgotten about getting you that German list of young talent for you to look at. I’ll get on that.
April 24th, 2009 at 22:55
@Babyface: You go with that mate if it helps you sleep better at night.
April 24th, 2009 at 22:56
I think a better way of evaluating Anderson is simply this: How many other players of his age are better than him in the centre of midfield? Fabregas. Maybe Gourcuff, but I’ve not seen much of him.
Wingers and strikers can be very good at a young age, because in a sense they don’t need experience. It’s incredibly rare that younger players make good defenders, midfielders and keepers.
I have no idea why there’s so much angst against Ando. He’s very young, incredibly inexperienced and is learning all the time. And he’s playing for the biggest club in the world. He’s inconsistent, doesn’t make great decisions and can’t hit the target. But he’s 21!
The only real problem with him that I see is our formation. Despite reasonably good outings last season, he is not and will never be a DMF. He doesn’t read the game well, doesn’t have discipline and that’s not what he’s here for. I thought our formation against Pompey was (hopefully) the one of the future, and in that he could flourish, the 4-2-3-1 that quite a few teams are using now. We have a host of players who can play in that 3, I’d say Park, Ando, Rooney, Ronaldo, Nani can all do a job there, and Berbatov can but only in the centre of that. It’s our real problem right now, and the reason we won’t sign Tevez. We got no one to play as the 1 up top.
April 24th, 2009 at 22:57
@Red Ranter: Thanks for that RR. And yes, props to Frank for that because that kind of intrusion into their lives is just out of line. Thanks,
April 24th, 2009 at 23:09
@Dan: My God, thanks for the geography lesson. You see, I didn’t know Germany was part of Eastern Europe. And to answer your claim, BOLLOCKS! I have a great love for German football but I have never been a fan of Czech football, East German football before the wall fell, I hate Polish football and only since Hiddink took over Russia have I ever given a damn about the Russians. Hell I love Germans, for me to love Russians is like Greeks inviting Turks over for dinner.
My favorites have been clear and very simple for 4 decades. My favorite footballing nations have been in order of preference, Germany, Holland, England and Brazil. Yes Brazil. You would be hard pressed to find a bigger fan of the Brazilian national teams from 1970 to 1986. But after that they stopped playing the Samba style and started to incorporate more of a European pragmatism to their game. I didn’t like it and frankly, I haven’t come around to liking many of them since. My God how I loved Pele and players after him like the great Rivelino, Socrates, Zico, Falcoa, Eder etc. Its when Careca was the best that I started to dislike Brazilian football. And I make no bones about my dislike for fat Ronaldo and that ugly overrated druggy Ronaldinho. But I love the Twins and Possebon and I am all for enjoying more Brazilians provided they do me a big favor and stay away from Real Madrid and Barcelona. That also is a reason why I don’t particularly care for South Americans. They can’t be trusted to stay out of Spain.
So you are out of line with your accusations mate because frankly, you are calling me a racist and closed minded which I am not. I have certain things I look for in players and theatrics, diving and lack of loyalty are habits I do not condone. South Americans are addicted to these habits so if I choose players from other countries to watch and prefer as potential United players, it’s because I feel they are good enough and above all dependable and trustworthy enough to come and stay for while. So I think you were a whole lot out of line with you comment.
April 24th, 2009 at 23:12
@Dan: They don’t have the right to accuse somebody of a falsehood without the facts.
April 24th, 2009 at 23:14
@Dan: A beast is a good analogy for the kind of player he is. He looks like a beast with that unsightly mop on his head and he reminds me of a hungry bull who has just seen red. Not exactly criteria that makes a great footballer.
April 24th, 2009 at 23:16
@MoYa: I will admit this much in regards to my negative opinion of Anderson. Quite a bit of what has turned him into an eyesore in my opinion has got to do with the way Fergie is using him and how he has taken him out of his comfort zone positionally and tactically.
April 24th, 2009 at 23:18
@MoYa: This is a rant site mate. Its designed for moaning and groaning. There are plenty of ass kissing suck up sites that pander to Fergie and the whole gang with delicious and juicy love ins. GAG! YUK!
Sorry, not for me. I have a mind and an opinion and if something is wrong in my eyes, I will comment. Only if we win every game 4-0 does the team get a free ride.
April 24th, 2009 at 23:22
@Mr.Muhozi: You are correct there mate. Only Anderson can ever change my view of Anderson. It’s not stubbornness. It’s the belief that I am right. Why should I betray that belief just because somebody else wants me to? That’s not being stubborn, that’s being true to my convictions. Like the conviction I have that Joe Girardi needs to be shown the exit door at Yankee Stadium. That team plays with no passion or consistency.
April 24th, 2009 at 23:23
@Mr.Muhozi: Post #115.
April 24th, 2009 at 23:25
@Craig Mc: Gee I must be blind then. I mean how can somebody who loves and likes Nani be so blind to not appreciate Anderson? Perhaps I am wrong and my Nani evaluation is out of whack to? Perhaps Anderson is good and Nani is total shite?
April 24th, 2009 at 23:28
@Beachryan: Most teams aren’t desperate enough to play a useless 21 year old in the center of their midfield. Due to age and our injuries, we have been forced to play Evans, the Twins, Gibson, Macheda and Welbeck before they are ready. That is not a proper gauge or criteria to judge Mr. Anderson’s talent.
April 24th, 2009 at 23:34
thanks for that, i assumed that would be it but i was thrown off by the paul scholes comment earlier, i am quite surprised that you like brasil, shocked actually, i would have thought argentina would have been there instead. Show how we humans must always ask before assuming. Brasil changed there style for one reason and one reason alone 4-2-4 was dying, it did not work and it was 24 years since they last won a world cup, i think incorporating a European style was a great idea because since then they have won 2 world cups, 4 copa americas (beating argentina in the final twice i might add) and winning two confederations cup, not bad. The 2002 team was incredible, the three r’s was everything which is brasilian attack whilst the rest of the team was european, the 2006 team had too many old men who were not hungry enough but now this brasil is like the 1914 english army, lions led by a donkey, i really do hope he does not bottle the world cup
im looking forward to the german list, i’m sure marin and kroos would be there i also wonder your thoughts on Sukuta-Pasu
you never told me your thought about hernanes because he ticks everything on that list and more
April 24th, 2009 at 23:42
@Grognard: whoa whoa Joe gave us 89 wins last season considering he had a team plagued with injuries especially losing your catcher, and the failure of phil hughes and Ian kennedy, though i still have a lot of hope of hughes, he will be at least a #2 in the future, like anderson he also needs time and patience which yankees fans do not possess
by the way, your tone on anderson has drastically changed, before it would be a calm pointing out the obvious, but the more people try to change your mind, the vulgarity of your words has augmented and now it just seems you try to slag anderson as much as you can,
the only players that would be happy if they replaced anderson, is hernanes or kaka, diego to a certain extent, but im sure for you the list is endless
April 25th, 2009 at 2:35
I love how everyone rates Anderson as a future world star ‘because he’s young’ but the fact is this is a cut throat business. Look at Liam Miller. He was an absolute star at Celtic but then moved to United as a bright prospect. He looked ok but wasn’t played in any big games and was sold on to Sunderland. He now plays for QPR in the championship. Who thought when he signed for United as a top prospect a few years ago his career would go into such a freefall? The fact is he didn’t impress in his appearances and was moved on. The same rule applies to Anderson, Nani and whoever and there is even more pressure on them because of their obscene transfer fees. The fact is, there is potential in Anderson but the team can’t afford to carry passengers in 9 out of 10 games so he has to play well to keep his place. At the moment he goes from playing great to playing bad and needs to develop his consistency. Tbh Gibson is the same age as him and looks just as capable if not more of dealing with the pressure on him, sorry if he wasn’t blessed with being born in Brazil but neither was George Best or Ryan Giggs and that worked out ok.
April 25th, 2009 at 4:19
Squad for today, no Tevez?!
Squad: Van der Sar, Foster, Kuszczak, Rafael, O’Shea, Brown, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evans, Evra, Ronaldo, Nani, Carrick, Scholes, Fletcher, Anderson, Giggs, Park, Berbatov, Rooney.
Night folks, chat later.
April 25th, 2009 at 4:28
@Mr.Muhozi: I think it’s more accurate for me to say that I loved (past tense) Brazil. I haven’t been much of a fan of theirs since 1986 although the Scolari bunch were alright to watch in 2002 except for that awful final against Germany who I still believed outplayed them in that game and who were incredibly unlucky to not win. Kahn chose a fine time to go pear shaped.
I have only become a bit of an Argentina fan of late. Trust me, going into the 2006 World Cup I was not a fan and I absolutely hated them in the late 70’s and especially when they were captained by that drugged out piece of shit Maradona. I respected them but hated them. It was watching Leo Messi and especially the God of football Juan Roman Riquelme that made me a fan. I could watch that man play football 24/7/365. He adds a tranquil and subtle beauty and elegance to the game which I am just a sucker for. See he has the elegance and beauty in his game that Anderson could only dream of. And please don’t be one of those that looks to put him down for his weaknesses and drawbacks. The man is a maestro with the ball and I for one just love watching him play. In fact, as long as Maradona is the national team manager, I refuse to ever willingly watch another game of theres until the World Cup. I record all World Cup games or I would boycott them there too.
Any manager that would insult the great one and not add him too the team out of petty jealousy and spite because he’s tired of him being compared to him, is spiteful and disgusting. Riquelme is the national team and Maradona is a punk and a criminal that has no business managing a football team. He is the engine room and they will falter without him. Their weakness is that they have no other midfielder that can play the role of AMF like him.
I can understand your dislike for Argentina being a die hard Brazil fan. I feel the very same way about Italy. I hate Italian football more than I hate diseases, George W Bush, Dick Cheney and the Taliban. If asked who I hate more, Enzo Bearzott or Osama Bin Laden, Bearzott would win in a landslide. God how I hate what that beautiful nation with it’s great food, history and culture has done to the beautiful game. They are and have always been the ANTI-BRAZIL. One of my all time favorite moment sin football history was the 1970 final because it was the beauty and good of football Brazil conquering the ugly and negative of football Italy 4-1. How can I hate Brazil after that? Well you would have ask Dung heap Dunga that question? A negative defensive minded Neanderthal who has brought Brazilian football back 50 years with his negativity.
No Mr Muhozi, for me it is Germany and always will be. They play the game with a hybrid style that borrows from the pragmatism and hard work ethic that is English, the ground breaking and innovative that is Dutch, the organized and theatrical that is Italian and finally, there own machine like efficiency coupled with discipline and the individualistic and artistic that is Brazilian football. They have always been able to meld numerous styles and approaches into a well oiled and fine tuned machine that adapts to any opponent and is rarely ever embarrassed. For me the two greatest football teams to play the game were the 1970 Brazil and the 1972 West German sides. 1958 and 1962 Brazil would be a good runner up as well as the 1974 Dutch. From those selections I think you can best figure out what kind of football I prefer. And Mr. Anderson resembles none of that.
April 25th, 2009 at 4:33
@Mr.Muhozi: I forgot to mention that I have been asked in the past which team was the greatest to not win the World Cup in a given year, I think many would vote for the 1974 Dutch team but I would love to remind people of the Samba Bunch from 1982 with Zico, Socrates, Falcao etc. That team was a delight to watch and there sheer joy of playing and attacking left them susceptible to the counterattack of a far inferior Italian side which ousted them. They had one Achilles Heel, goalkeeping and that cost them. Italy had three chances to score and Paolo Rossi scored on all three chances. Meanwhile, Brazil peppered the legend Dino Zoff but were only able to score twice. I cannot remember a better team than that. Well before your time I’m sure but an era of Brazilian football with some real individual artists.
April 25th, 2009 at 4:38
@Liam: A coupleof years ago World Soccer Monthly published an article that was the “Top 50 Young Players of the Future.” I was looking at that article a couple of weeks ago (I will try to dig it up), and found that at least half of those names have almost completely disappeared. These were supposed to be can’t miss stars. Injuries or just bad luck or being overrated have derailed many a bright future career. There are no guarantees. Hell, I used to think Sebastian Deisler was going to be the German Maradona. His knees and emotional health told us a different story.
April 25th, 2009 at 5:32
@m34ch: Tevez is not in the squad because he is on the “slow boat out of here”. This is the SAF preferred method of telling his young stars, “thanks, but don’t let the door hit you on the way out”.
I would imagine that FSW’s desire to splash a little lemon juice on the Tevez negotiations, has made him all that more vehement not to negotiate!! I would also imagine that he will make any proceedings between Tevez and Liverpool as acrimonious as possible!!
April 25th, 2009 at 5:44
@Redrich: Opening his big mouth to Argentine media and telling them that he wants out is also not going to win him any more playing time. This is Fergie’s way of saying shut your trap.
April 25th, 2009 at 8:14
@Grognard: Nani will NEVER be total shite, and United have not scored as many goals as last season with Nani on the bench, seeing he was 2nd to Rooney in ASSISTS. Bigoted Fergie has his jobs for HIS little pet boys though, so he can go fuck. And the rest of you don’t need to answer this post, because I already had a season of you lot spouting your animosity to Lil man Nani.
Anderson is one of Fergie’s faves, so I think he will do everything he can to push him along. The lad has had a fair bit of injury this season. Also unlike Tev and Berba he doesn’t complain, so the Fergie yes men do quite well in staying at OT.
.
So as I said yesterday, Up yours all you anti latin miseries
.
April 25th, 2009 at 8:18
@Babyface: I think you’ll find the 5% is more like 50% Babyface –
.
April 25th, 2009 at 8:43
I think Anderson has his uses but Im yet to be convinced that he’ll develop into a player worthy of a regular first team place. He has a good range of attributes: strength, acceleration, good passing range, tackling. But the area that lets him down is the mental side: the decision making, the positioning, reading the game etc. Yes he is young. But I also do not think he is that intelligent so these areas of the game will be difficult for him to improve.
I think he’d do a lot better if he had someone next to him bossing him around. Unfortunately none of our other central midfielders (barring perhaps Hargreaves) can do that. And even then Im not sure if Anderson’s English is good enough to benefit from that.
Really it always amazes me that players do not given more intensive English lessons. I would have thought the best English tuition money can buy should be able to make our foreign stars fluent within a year. If we did that I think it would make a real difference to the integration of foreign players within the squad.
April 25th, 2009 at 8:53
What’s all this talk about Kaka? Is it true? Or tabloid tale? Can anyone confirm?
I’d die to see Kaka embrace the Red Devil Shirt!
April 25th, 2009 at 8:55
Phil neville is a red!
http://www.redcafe.net/f6/phil-neville-red-245502/
April 25th, 2009 at 8:58
Oh my… Looks like Fergie is serious for United to go out all attacking if he wants Kaka!
April 25th, 2009 at 9:20
i had a dream kaka joined manchester united, only to wake up and find a shit load of press coverage on the story, please let this dream come true like my berbatov and anderson dream
link one
link two
link three
i know all of these are from the press and just speculation, but maybe it might be true
April 25th, 2009 at 9:24
Ive seen the rest of your post grognard, i have come to the conclusion that your being harsh on andy.
Lets look at the first 5 in your midfielders list, lampard, gerrard, ballack, deco all over the age of 27, all have years of experience of playing in top leagues at the highest level, ando does not. Fabregas has been playing for arsenal since he was 16, he developed into what he is now, he has experience, ando does not. You cant compare him, to those types of players at all!
April 25th, 2009 at 9:28
I’m inclined to believe the Kaka rumours for the following reasons.
1. Milan in principle are prepared to sell at the right price as they negotiated with City earlier this year. They need the cash to rebuild and Kaka’s value is starting to drop as he ages…so now is the time to get the most for him.
2. Kaka seems to be getting fed up with Milan’s underachieving.
3. If Ronaldo is sold to Real I doubt theyd have the money to buy Kaka.
4. Kaka ripped us apart in 2007 and Ferguson has a habit of remembering players who played well against us
5. While Ribery would be the obvious replacement for Ronaldo, he may not be available, in which case the best answer to replacing Ronaldo may be to buy another world class player (like Kaka) rather than a like-for-like replacement.
6. Out of all the English clubs we’d be most attractive because we have Brazilians AND we win trophies. Unlike City who have Brazilians and um finish midtable.
April 25th, 2009 at 9:29
@Darth Red Diablo: http://www.redcafe.net/f9/milan-star-dreams-united-206474/index13.html
Its all lies starting from the caf. sorry.
Just goes to show how IDK journos are!
April 25th, 2009 at 9:29
@colver: http://www.redcafe.net/f9/milan-star-dreams-united-206474/index13.html
April 25th, 2009 at 9:32
OK, i have posted like twice, with a link as to why the kaka rumours are fake.
Basically, it was a fake article posted by someone on Redcafe in june, and journalist have picked up on it. its entirely fake, and even the quotes are from the fake article posted on the caf.
April 25th, 2009 at 9:35
@colver: im sorry, are you telling me kaka is more available then ribery?
Mate, its FAKE, its poor, poor journalism, a guy on redcafe posted an article, and the papers have picked up on it.
April 25th, 2009 at 10:02
@Dan: As usual, you assume that I am judging all those names based on who they are now. False. I am basing their skills based on their early years. They all had what Anderson doesn’t by the age of 20. So get off that argument. I’m simply giving names of players who fill all my criteria and have done so for many years now.
And regards to me being harsh, oh well mate, just deal with it, because the only person who can get me off of Anderson’s back is Anderson. I challenge him to prove me wrong. In fact I would love to be proven wrong. I am not so arrogant and full of myself that I wish he fail and in the process hurt the club I love. No, on the contrary, I want him to succeed. Problem is I know he won’t.
April 25th, 2009 at 10:05
@colver: Kaka has been a shadow of his former self this season. He’s also been very injury prone. I say he should stay in Italy and leave the EPL alone because he will constantly be injured if he was to come here. He’s a wussy boy. A real softy. Can’t play with pain and recovers slowly from a knock. A real girly man.
April 25th, 2009 at 10:07
@colver: Ribery would be a lot easier to get than Kaka. Italian clubs do not let their legends go easily. Bayern will not hold onto a player who wants to leave, it will cause turmoil in their dressing room. Remember what happened earlier this year when the threat of Kaka leaving was strong. The riots and threats of violence and retribution my the Milan fans was enough to end the negotiations with Man City. Kaka is not going anywhere in the near future.
April 25th, 2009 at 11:05
Esco barz AKA gavin defoe(jermaines brother) was killed last night, so i doubt he’ll play today. He got attacked in broad daylight, sad story that.
RIP
April 25th, 2009 at 11:26
This is so pathetic, this kaka fiasco is now on soccernet!
Redcafe, take a bow!
April 25th, 2009 at 12:20
@Liam: Great post mate.
April 25th, 2009 at 12:24
God these kaka rumours seem to be picking up a bit huh, but i refuse to believe them. I first heard of it in the rag of a paper the news of the world and now it seems to have spread to the other papers too. What the hell is wrong with the bloody papers here, one paper speaks garbage and then the other ones pick up too. Who the hell comes up with this stuff, is it just a guy working at the sun has a deadline to write the back page and randomly thinks of a player and links him to a top team. Thats how it seems anyway.
I remember just in the summer when we were apparently linked with henry. Ian wright said he was with shaun going for his medical in the manchester hospital when he reckoned he has heard henry had been there earlier for his medical to join us. Before long this story was all over the gossip columns, the bloody radio and the papers ran the story for a few days too. I just dont listen to whatever the papers write, until i see the player in a red top i just ignore it. To be honest why would we buy kaka when he plays in a different position to ronaldo. Its ok to say we buy kaka for £70million but who do we buy as the ronaldo replacement. Ribery for £40million? That means using our own money, and up to £40million of it. Doesnt sound good sence from a business sence of view.
As for the summer transfers i dont see us making any big moves tbh. Sounds like valencia is a done deal, probably nani will leave which will be a shame cos hes been given no chance. Expect tevez to sign after the days comments by fergie and thats about it. Weve been linked with a few very young stars from south america of late. There was 2 or 3 argentines and a brazilian just yesterday who were all gonna cost a few million so maybe 2/3 young players like that may come in but i dont see any major business being done or many players going out. Certainly this kaka story is just a load of rubbish and expect to see ronaldo here next year too.
April 25th, 2009 at 12:58
@Matt: Im telling you mate, it started on redcafe.net!
April 25th, 2009 at 13:07
@Dan: Yeah i was on the bbc 606 and they posted a link to that and your right, it was written june 2008 and the papers have basically copied what was written there word for word and claimed it was their own work. What bloody idiots these people are who work for the sun, notw etc, they think we believe anything. Although i do like the summer, i just cant stand the constant 3 months of crappy transfer rumours which we have to endure linking us to buying players and of course the whole ronaldo thing that will go on again this summer i expect. Just wish i could away to a desert island for 3 months so i dont have to hear the whole summer transfer crap. These people will never learn.
April 25th, 2009 at 13:39
@Matt: Still pretty funny though, just go to show you cant trust ANY paper, even the mirror etc!
April 25th, 2009 at 13:52
@Dan: Sad thing is even some of the decent papers have become like the rags like the sun. The daily mail used to be a pretty decent paper, it didnt just link us with anyone and in many cases they broke the transfer news well before anyone else and they were actually real players we wanted. I remember it broke the story we wanted saha very early, and also that we were close to signing robben who yes later joined chelsea but that was more to do with chelsea having more money. It was a good paper years ago but now its just crap, infact it was the mail that linked us with henry for 2 weeks. Your right though best not to take notice of any paper, they are all the same. Just write anything to sell papers.
April 25th, 2009 at 15:06
Come on you Hull!
April 25th, 2009 at 15:08
@ Red Ranter: Any chance of a match preview pls?
April 25th, 2009 at 15:21
@ Liam: Are you watchin the Hull v Scouse game on Setanta Ireland? The commentary is a couple of seconds ahead of the picture, very annoying! They’ld better sort it out before the United game!! OOOOOOH close Giovanni! Hope the scouse have another mare in defence and Caleb Folan or anyone from Hull can take advantage. Would love to see Manucho come on and score the winner
April 25th, 2009 at 15:46
Go to the next thread to continue match discussion. Or this might slow down in due course of time.
@phoenix red: Sorry. Couldn’t get much sleep last night, hence in no position to rite a preview. So bear with me.
April 25th, 2009 at 15:47
fuck, jammy scouse bastards, Alonso scores, dippers 1-0 up
April 28th, 2009 at 17:42
i think is still a valuable asset to manU by the way nice blog. Here i Kenya we are all manU fans. lol