Mar 16
Lessons learned from Inter and Liverpool.
[Note to Liverpool fans stumbling onto this site through Newsnow: You lot are among the best fans ever and you will win the treble this season. Now go away and leave us in peace.]
Saturday was a terrible day. It’s been a while since I’ve felt this bad after a game. Even Chelsea away in the 05/06 season wasn’t quite as bad because, 1. we were playing away from home against a rather good team and, 2. we were a shite team in comparison then anyway, and 3. they weren’t Liverpool.
But rather than going about blasting every player that made it to the pitch it’s a far more constructive exercise to think about areas we could improve upon.
First, a positive, reassuring fact that ought to brighten depressed minds: we are top of the league with a four point cushion that could quite easily become seven if Saturday’s kick on the backside really meant something to the lads.
With that thought let’s move on to things that need to be worked on.
The defence has appeared strangely, for want of a better word, incoherent. For reasons, I can’t possibly explain, certain players have been ball watching far too much. Take, for example, Patrice Evra. I haven’t seen this drastic a slump in form as much as I’ve seen from him recently. [One can only hope that this is a temporary slump, and that he's not playing injured.] He nearly let Stankovic capitalise on his oversight, and made an ill-timed tackle on Saturday, not to mention the number of times he allowed players to surge forward on the left. It could be argued that we had ‘Pool on the rack for most part but we can talk about that later.
Still with the defence, Nemanja Vidic had a game he’d probably want to forget soon [and hopefully his suspension would help him with that] but I am slightly concerned about Rio Ferdinand. He wasn’t bad against Liverpool, but he hasn’t been close to his peerless self of last season yet. Once again, I want to hope this is mainly because he is yet to recover from a recurrent back injury. But it is surely a while since I’ve seen the Rio Ferdinand who, in his peak, would’ve had enough cherries in his pocket to keep El Nino busy.
About our midfield, I’ve heard tons of revisionist bullshit about how Fergie cocked up his selection of personnel in midfield. Well, we could have said something similar about our team selection against Chelsea. We thumped them spectacularly, and Fergie was hailed a tactical genius — something the man himself, along with his peers, says is not his greatest asset. The point I am trying to make here is this: we have come this far — despite losing home and away to Liverpool, we are four points ahead with a game in hand — brushing aside injury troubles, gruelling far-Eastern jaunts, winning Mickey Mouse cups along the way, and to say that all this was accomplished with a poor midfield; that, to me, is utter tosh. So I wouldn’t fault Ferguson’s selection either. We did have Liverpool under the cosh for a good 70 minutes, if my unspectacular powers of time estimation is anything to go by, with good possession. So I can’t fault the midfield. I do have questions of my own, such as why a big-match-player (in the words of SAF himself) like Darren Fletcher didn’t make it to the starting XI, but I would be cheating with my powers of hindsight. I’ll let that slip.
But this brings me to the third part of this belated outpouring that I’m subjecting you to, and it is in our attack. Again, I won’t question the man for picking the forwards that he did. What I would ask is — and I think, at this point in the season, it is safe to ask — is our system working? By a cursory glance at the league table, and a shrug of the shoulder, most would be compelled with a ‘yes, the league table doesn’t lie.‘ Sure, it doesn’t. And so far, yes, it hasn’t lied. And a couple of losses later, it won’t lie then either. But then what am I getting at?
When we bought Berbatov, we decided to sacrifice a player who was able to run at defences but unable to head, for a player who was composed and could head, whilst providing flick ons for our other gifted attackers to capitalise. What happened this season was, we took time for our system to get adjusted to the new arrival and, whilst goals have been forthcoming, they haven’t been quite as prolific, nor has the system been mouth-wateringly fluid. Berbatov’s arrival has improved our ball retention, and we have become a more considered team the way we conduct our build up play, but it also requires an excellent, water-tight defence to make up for the lesser number of goals we’re likely to get from this system. If our defenders cock up spectacularly, then our task would be far more difficult to get back than it was last season.
Berbatov’s arrival also meant we needed other players to come into play — and I am primarily talking of a central midfielder who could come into the box unmarked and score a few. We have midfielders who can pass at the moment, and Fletcher looks most likely to score goals from midfield. This is no fault of Berbatov, of course. Nor is he an unqualified success. He has done well, but we do expect more from the Bulgarian.
The reason I had to bring all this up now that we lost a game at home, is to give it some context. Speaking about this after a 4-1 romp at West Brom, for instance, wouldn’t resonate quite as well as now.
But all this negativity aside, I felt it was good that we got beaten by someone, although I didn’t want it to happen against Liverpool. It’s really hard to take a home defeat thumping against a rival that really wasn’t superior to us on the day. Three defensive gifts that they capitalised on would be the only credits attributable to them. And the red card did it for us finally.
I really think this backlash will wake up players who may have lapsed into smugland. Rio Ferdinand acknowledges it was a ‘rude awakening’ and Sir Bobby Charlton reckons this defeat could only help us. He still mentions the quintuple though, which I really don’t have much time for — unless of course we win that.
[Note to Liverpool fans who've actually read till the end of this piece: Get a life. Or better, get a tattoo]
Till then, I’ll look forward to our side winning, what they call in football, the next game.
Related items from Red Rants:
- Manchester United and the Champions’ League
- Mourinho’s Inter, Liga de Quito and proof that Berbatov can be happy
- Some reads to while your time…
- Rooney’s return, United aim to thrash Sporting, injury list, vote or face hellfire
- Man Utd v Inter: Preview
Tags: Opinions/Columns
March 16th, 2009 at 7:38
It’s a really worst day for us. Yes, the good point is that we’re still top of the table, and still have a great chance to be the EPL Champion. However, to be honest, I think if we have to face Liverpool again this season, (in UCL) we’ll struggling again.
I think the main problem in facing Liverpool is Benitez knows how to play against us. They play 5 in the midfield which allow Gerrard to go forward as many time as he want. Their 2 central midfield are so good in battling for the ball. And with Torres up front, Liverpool are so dangerous on the counter attack.
The main problem for us is we don’t have a real clas striker to play against their central defender and destroy them. Berbatov (from both matches agains Liverpool) is absolutely USELESS. Tevez is working hard but seems doesn’t know how to get pass them. I think Rooney is more dangerous when playing wide on the side of the pitch. About Ronaldo?, every time he get the ball, there will be 2 or 3 Liverpool players to defend and cover the Portugese star.
So, in my opinion, the next time we play Liverpool, it would be interesting to play Ronaldo as a striker. Ronaldo can score with 2 feet and a header, and he will get pass Liverpool central defender and score easier than playing wide that have 2-3 Liverpool players look after him. We should play Giggs as a free role play-maker, just behind Ronaldo, to support him. Play Rooney and Park who both are working really hard on both sides of the pitch. Carrick and Fletcher will be superb in midfield as both are tall and good at tackle, so they will win more ball for us.
I think Berbatov and Tevez should be dropped to the bench. This may be the better formation to play against Liverpool.
March 16th, 2009 at 8:04
Good read. I’m not really looking forward to uni. today though.
When I saw the team sheet I was surprised not to see Fletcher but was glad to see Anderson play – err…not so much now of course.
There wasn’t a lot wrong with our play, it’s just the defensive errors which cost us the game. Although our final ball in the final third could be better. The scoreline is flattering.
March 16th, 2009 at 8:28
A single game doesn’t change the fact that utd are a great team and most importantly have a great squad. Maybe complacency played its part although Utd should have been motivated enough for this game. What this game does show though is that Liverpool’s pressing game strongly depends on having Gerrard and Torres playing, otherwise Liverpool are toothless…they will not lose…but they will not win many games. Don’t agree with Ferguson that you were the better team, since when is defending not part of the match? Also…how many chances did Utd have?
March 16th, 2009 at 9:05
To repeat from previous last post:
@Grognard: I 100% agree about Ribery – absolute class! Cannot get enough of him! Would complement Ronaldo perfectly and punish every team that doubles on Ronaldo (which seems to work) and every team that does not
You are right, this double-teaming seems to work right now, and I must say, I am surprised Fergie has not found a way to counter this besides just making Ronaldo switch sides – maybe giving him his free role from last season could fix this or having Ribery definitely would 
100% on Hargo – great when playing but getting older and injuries have gotten the best of him so far. If he cannot stay fit for 80+% of the games next season, we have to ship him out and bring in new talent – how I wish we had Essien, the only Chelsea player I enjoy watching.
Not sure about the ego of Schweinsteiger nor the quality of DeRossi (Roma has not been that great with him and Totti this year). Bastian is great player but would be a monster to man-manage… I prefer Ribery x 100 – why you say impossible? 25-30 mil pounds should secure his transfer, I think.
Up front, I want Berba to stay – he has only been here for one year, give him a break. it took Vidic and Evra a full summer with the team before showing class. Give Berba a summer as well. If we let Tevez go, I would like to see Aguero join us… even if he is another fickle Argentinian. Huntelaar is nowhere nearly as good as Berba – yes he has scored 5 in 4 games, but the opponents have been A bilbao, A Madrid, Betis, and Gijon – not exactly what I consider proper challenges to claim huntelaar better than most attackers. Please, stick with Berba at least for one more year, before claiming he is a bust.
Regarding bringing in Ballack that hurts more than losing 4-1 to liverpool! That bastard wanted money and went to Chelsea, I am happy he has won nothing with them and no tolerance for him (I know you have a crush on him and Riquelme, but for me Ballack is a burned bridge – oooh, how I dislike him!)
LASTLY, I realize that yesterday was a day we will live in infamy, but to be HONEST, it seemed to me that Vidic’s two mistakes (giving Torres 1-on-1 with VDS and bringing down Gerrard for red) and Evra’s mistaken tackle was all that was between us. We controlled much of the game and those mistakes were anomalies and will not happen again this season.
Keeping a 15 game streak clean-sheet is testament to the extremely poor timing of these mistakes (read: accidents). On any other day, we would and should have won this game – THEREFORE, I do not view our team as being in serious trouble.
Yes, we rode some luck, but luck does not last 15 games. Losing this game may be the best (ooh, that hurts to say that
) thing that has happened to us this season. We may now have the hunger and motivation to finish strong in the EPL and ECL. I hope we go up against tough opponents so that we can prove just who we are and what FIFA is messing with.
Just my two (and optimistic per usual) cents.
March 16th, 2009 at 9:17
I would be interested to see how it would have gone if we had treated it like a European game. I think we would have seen Ronaldo and Rooney up front and a much more compact midfield which would have dealt with Liverpool better.
March 16th, 2009 at 9:39
@Annie: Couldn’t agree with you more. The scoreline was indeed flattering. They didn’t score any goals made and finished by themselves, but we defensively faulty contributed to their each and every goal. Our final ball, and most of our strikers have been letting us down with their finishing in a lot of games this season.
March 16th, 2009 at 10:02
@Gazzaro: O you of little faith
. Why should we be afraid of getting Lfool in the CL. I think the @we can beat anybody’ because we beat an ailing Real Madrid, and Man Utd on an OFF day defensively is a MYTH. If we hadn’t GIFTED them 3 goals defensively, would they have done anything offensively against us – NO would they fuck. I would love them in the CL, I am not in the least afraid of them, or moved by the sudden media hype. FFS, uncharacteristic defending by us led to them getting the win yesterday. If we played them again today, I feel certain that with more mettle in our midfield, (regardless of what RR says about MF here, I think he’s wrong), we would beat them. So no mate, I am not worried or afraid to face them in the CL.
March 16th, 2009 at 10:30
Ahh the usual knee jerk reactions are back, it was Phelan’s fault that we lost bring back CQ, Giggs, Scholes and Neville must retire now!
We it was simply a bad day at the office, Vida probably had the worst game posibley of his career, Carrick and Evra have lose form but the only real issue to me is Anderson may have the ability as a player but to me mentally he is not equipped to be a United player in my view.
We will bounce back, hopefully and lets hope we get them in the Champions League.
March 16th, 2009 at 10:31
Well, it’s a bit late and tough to write, but here goes the player ratings:
EVDS – 4 – Not sure he made a save, and we lost 4-1. I would have liked to see him commit against Torres (he just kind of floundered) and at least a token dive would have been nice against Aurelio’s free kick, which wasn’t in the corner at all.
O’Shea – 6 – Not bad, imo. He’ll never offer us the pentrative attacking runs we want of a right back, but he’s not a right back. Didn’t cock up too many passes and was alright.
Rio – 6 – Can’t really fault him for the goals but he did get skinned a few times by an admittedly fierce Torres. I think he probabyl needed something like Saturday to focus him for the rest of the season.
Vida – 3 – When you play defence for a team that dominates possession like we do, a lot of your job comes down to concentration. He turned off twice in 70 minutes and we lost because of him. What worries me is how his confidence plummetted after the first goal, he better turn it back on when he returns or we’re in real trouble.
Evra – 4 – I agree with RR, he seems still injured. There have been a good number of times in the past few games he’s let the RW drift in behind him on the far post and done nothing, and we’ve been lucky not to be punished. Normally I’d forgive him as his attacking is so good, but he offered none of that either.
Carrick – 4 – What the hell happened to him? Last two games he has been absolutely woeful, misplacing simple passes and gifting posession frequently. Clearly something in his head has gone, Fergie needs to sort it out.
Ando – 4 – I had thought he’d be in charge of shackling Gerrard and providing some shielding for the defence. Instead seemed intent of taking two men on (and I believe this was Rafa’s plan) bringing him out of position to be tackled by Mach/Lucas and then they’d counter. Very little maturity and I’m pretty sure he didn’t actually find a teammate with a single through ball.
Park – 7 – Industrious, hard working and created our best chance (penalty). Kept the Liverpool side he was on locked back in their half, and did well.
Ronaldo – 3.5 – He gets a .5 for hammering in the penalty, which must have been tough given that he asleep fro the rest fo the match. Utterly neutralised.
Rooney – 6 – I thought he was bright, and at least kept on trying. Could have created two (ball on to Tevez in front of goal who couldn’t quite reach, and then a great ball to Ronaldo late who actually missed it completely). Was played more as a midfielder and at least showed some creativity.
Tevez – 5 – Pretty much summed himself up with that performance. Worked hard, had some nice touches played some decent passes but when it came time to actually put the ball in the net, he fell over twice.
Fergie – can’t really blame him, had Tevez put either of his chances away at 2-1 we would have been fine. Liverpool barely had 5 shots of note, and won 4-1. All we can hope for is that he learns from this showing.
I think we’ve been at least partly exposed today. I’m hoping that this will convince Fergie that EVDS isn’t up for another year at this level (was he ever that good during the goalless streak? He was rubbish at season start too. Plus, watching him stand and watch Aurelio’s free kick was just like the two namakura goals agains tCeltic. You know where it’s going, at lesat move that way!) and that in games like that one we badly needed pace.
Controversial, but I really think we should have sacrificed Ronaldo for Nani. It was clear by the 50th minute Ronnie wasn’t up for it, and Nani could hardly have done worse.
March 16th, 2009 at 12:36
@Stephen: Stephen mi man, you know what sticks in my gullet, ‘Liverpool crowing on how THEY walloped us’. They walloped us MY ARSE, tell me one of their goals, that was scored thru their OWN sheer ingenuity, rather than our MAD CAP follies defensive giveaways. If we hadn’t have made mistakes, real bloomers defensively, then THEY would not have scored any of their goals, except the last free kick. They didn’t win it, as they are pontificating with full gusto about, we fucking gave the game to them. That’s why I am not afraid of getting them in the CL. They beat us 2-1 at Anfield when we didn’t have our best team out. United seem to have a hard time with teams who attack us at speed, i.e. Blackburn, Hull, Inter etc. I am going to say it again, SHOUT IT if I have to, but that is because in games like this, it is OUR MF that cannot contain and control, and who thereby allow opponents to put TOO much continual TRAFFIC of opponents come at our defence wave, after wave, after fucking wave. RR may be happy with our MF, but I sure as feck aint!.
March 16th, 2009 at 12:41
I think a big problem was Fergies unwillingness to change things. He made the changes in (I think) the 75th min. 15 mins too late. Rooney was played out wide and it wasted him. If you’re going to play one of our strikers on the wing, surely it’s Tevez? Anderson should have been hauled off at halftime. You could see it wasn’t his day. Fletcher should have been put on.
March 16th, 2009 at 13:11
@Madschester United: We missed our chance to sign Ribery. We got Nani instead
March 16th, 2009 at 13:15
@Traverse: Traverse, I couldn’t agree with you more mate. Fletcher is the one player who usually turns up in the BIG games, and Andie was not really back to his match fitness after injury. However, Fergie couldn’t be blamed for our defensive howlers yesterday. He could be blamed for not spotting in the last 3 games that our MF looks and plays lightweight. We have no MF enforcer, we should send for the Terminator
.
March 16th, 2009 at 13:16
Something I have to wonder though, is why not play Fletch and Giggs again? Chelsea had a more physically imposing midfield and they dealt with it sublimely. I honestly think that even one of them in place of Anderson would have made the difference
March 16th, 2009 at 13:19
Nani wouldn’t or couldn’t have done any worse than the strikers or so called we had on the field yesterday. In fact he kicked arse against Lfool last season, in spite of what some irritating fucks on this blog think. You should look at the srikers you support, who did fuck all yesterday – ho fucking hum!
March 16th, 2009 at 13:19
@Craig Mc: yeh mate, i definately agree, the ultimate way for us to take out the CL this year would be to go through the filth and make put them back in their place. we definately won’t be making any mistakes next time around.
it would be interesting though if ronaldo was up front on his own, has that ever happened before? if he was given space to play with only having to take on players one on one, he would’ve been more dangerous than torres i think, but he was double teamed the whole game and didn’t get much space to what he does.
March 16th, 2009 at 13:29
@Natzca: Yes Bro, I think Ronnie would have had more goals playing in line with the last defenders. He has some already, which were wrongly disallowed. All I know Natzca, is that we are not utilising Ronnie to his strengths, and we are suffering from it. More to the point, Ronnie is getting more and more frustrated with the whole bloody thing.
March 16th, 2009 at 13:30
@Craig Mc: The voice of reason!!!!
Thank God!! all their goals were mistakes, all VDS had to do was get the ball out of the net four times, the hysteria of the press makes me laugh we will be back!
March 16th, 2009 at 13:39
No manchester united fan enjoys losing against the fools, but what I think we all as fans should be thankfull for, is that we’re still 4 points clear, we’re in CL quarters and FA Cup semis. The loss happened at a good time, in the sense that hopefully the lads will be more focussed for the crucial games ahead in CL and FA Cup…
Glory, Glory Man Utd.
March 16th, 2009 at 13:44
We are in all competions which is the number one thing, Ronnie played poorly and is does not matter where he could have played on Sat he would have been no better, is was just one of those days regardless who would have started in the team or where they played.
March 16th, 2009 at 13:54
@Stephen: Stephen not you too mate
. Ronnie plays a LOT better in the free movement role, than being stuck out on the wing, with 2/3 defenders marking him en masse. Well, thats where I see he plays least best anyways. I was meant to be down here for the game, but I had a deadline for work project I am being payed for, so had to miss it. Glad I did now, because I would have killed some of those scouse gits on the terraces – haha just jesting. I don’t enjoy work deadlines that keep me away from my beloved United and my mad Manchester mates. But I have mortgage now to attend to, so I have to meet deadlines to get the VERY good financial rewards 
.
March 16th, 2009 at 14:02
@Craig Mc: Ha ha you got off lightly mate, but all in all we didn’t play well but it was just one of those things, Torres played well first half didn’t get a kick in the second and Stevie Me only touched the ball twice, one for the pen and another for the sending off
March 16th, 2009 at 14:07
@Stephen: I know, I saw the game on on TV. That’s what galls me when they say they whipped us. The score whipped us, but we had most of the possession, when we werent giving the ball away, or playing keystone cops in defence. Without our help, from what I saw, they wouldn’t have scored – end of.
March 16th, 2009 at 14:08
@Stephen: Nah man, Ronnie was smothered the whole game by at least 2 defenders, never got a chance to run at the defenders much, ‘tool did play a bit like a lower table team, sitting back and defending for most parts of the game, so we were always coming up against more defenders than they had when they attacked us mostly through the counter attack. i can’t remember many times when they penetrated when our defense was set, it was mostly through transitional defense.
shit there’s my biasness again, but i reckon there’s some truth in it
March 16th, 2009 at 14:09
@Craig Mc: That is what I mean, we were poor but the press have gone extremely over board, I heard Gonzo or Phil thompson on Talksport saying WE were cracking up, oh dear that large chip on his shoulder which was his nose is getting bigger.
March 16th, 2009 at 14:33
Vidic has had his red card upgraded from a 1 match ban (for denying a goalscoring opportunity) to a 2 match ban, because it’s his second of the season.
March 16th, 2009 at 14:36
@Craig Mc: I think they are ultimately Fergies fault. I’m a fan of Anderson, he’ll be a future world player of the year when he matures, but it was obvious he was not on it that day. Didn’t track back, didn’t hustle, barely passed it to a United player.
The centre backs seemed reluctant to give him the ball, leading to stupid things like letting it bounce over your shoulder… With Scholes, Fletcher or Hargreaves that’d have been a simple 5 yard header, but the doubt was there.
March 16th, 2009 at 14:45
@Traverse: Yeah Traverse, every feckin thing that could go wrong, did go wrong. Yet I believe some of our games have been leading up to the defensive mess in this game, we have been dithering. The next few games will reveal what sort of mettle we have got, or whether we are craxcking up trying to win all 5 trophies as soom pundits are just gloating in saying.
March 16th, 2009 at 14:47
This will probably shock everybody, but in the last games, I think Sheasy has not done too bad a job, and certainly better than Evra. Evra is really off his game right now, and I hope it is just TEMPORARY.
March 16th, 2009 at 14:51
Stephen, Thompsons a Lfool fan thru and thru. He and all the others will say we are cracking up, just to get back for our Rafa is cracking up chant. Can’t blame them for that. But L’fool TRULY are not as good as they think they are, and I truly believe that. Then again, neither are we in some areas, and particularly MF. Our defence is creaking too, because of the amount of work they have to do, due to our LIGHTWEIGHT MF. Yes you all, I am going to keep saying that, as I have been saying for two seasons. I am far from happy about the poverty of our MF.
March 16th, 2009 at 16:48
Need a moral booster? Enjoy… Makes you cry out of joy!
March 16th, 2009 at 17:43
@Craig Mc: That’s sour grapes man. We got our asses handed to us on a plate. The bottom line is we got thumped 4-1, not 1-0, not 2-1, not 3-2 but 4-1. I laugh when I read everybody claim we had them on the rack until the red card. Bottom line is we were down 2-1 at the time we had them on the rack. I love it when the team who is losing claims to have the other team on the rack yet they are creating ZERO scoring opportunities because their midfielders are porridge and their strikers are clueless. Liverpool made the most of their opportunities because they had the players with the ability and class to beat Vidic, steal the ball from him and then calmly beat EVDS, because they could make a well placed free kick that froze our keeper and that didn’t hit the wall like a certain Portuguese pretty boy’s does 98% of the time, because a player was able to run onto a well timed and well placed direct ball, beat one of our slower defenders and then chip the ball over our clueless keeper. Oh and lets not forget, when we were putting Liverpool “to the rack”, they didn’t crumble and collapse like a house of cards.
Sorry Bro but we got our asses thoroughly spanked and we deserve to hang our heads in shame because nothing from that game is positive, absolutely nothing. Not since the Premier League was founded can I remember such a humiliating defeat where we lost by more than two goals and where we looked lost, confused and inept all in one. Sure we have taken a few beatings on the road at Newcastle, Chelsea, Arsenal and Blackburn over that time, but to lose like that at OT is alarming, disenchanting and completely unacceptable. And to save that performance for our most hated rival, is just the icing on the cake now isn’t it. I say the firing squad for the lot of them except Nani.
March 16th, 2009 at 17:45
This isnt a reaction, thay match all but confirmed what will happen i the summer, reinforcements! scholes and fletcher arent good enough to start anymore(it really hurts that scholes cant, i use to think he was an automatic starter, not anymore), anderson is inconsistent, as is carrick, and giggs cant play 7 games straight. We will need a midfielder, along with hargreaves coming back, a winger as fergie has lost his faith in nani(sorry park fans, against teams like inter, hes good, but against stoke hes an embarresment), and simply play rooney behind berba.
A winger and a midfielder will come in this summer, ribery and sahin or sanchez and sahin would be my picks.
March 16th, 2009 at 17:49
@Traverse: Change to what? Take out one ineffective striker for another or a young ineffective midfielder for an older ineffective midfielder? Nothing would have worked on Saturday because the calamity of errors were so grand that one could just see it was one of those things and one of those days where the players were not in line with the planets and our biorhythms were just not in tune. Reminds me of Oddball in “Kelly’s Heroes” when he would talk about bad karma and always with the negative waves. It just was a nightmare and one that we will continue to wake up from in a cold sweat from time to time. Liverpool felt something similar last year when we crushed them 3-0 but that was a road game and they were one man down for 70 minutes. We have no excuses other than our collective bubble finally burst in our face and lo and behold, it was full of vomit.
March 16th, 2009 at 17:50
@Grognard: Grog you and I were obviously watching the game with different eyes mate
. I saw what I saw, and am convinced we would have got a draw if we had stayed with 11 vs 11. It isn’t sour grapes at all, because I firmly believe we gifted them their goals. Like Stephen said, Torres didn’t hardly get a kick in the second half, and Gerrard only touched the ball twice. So different people, different eyesight 
.
March 16th, 2009 at 17:54
@Traverse: Anderson will be a future world player of the year? Want to put some money on that prediction mate? He’d have to score a goal first.
March 16th, 2009 at 17:54
@Grognard: I guess we will see whether our collective bubble has burst over the next few games. Until then Bro, I am not conceding any ground to those thoughts
. I’m a combatant, I’m UNited thru and thru, no matter what shite hits the fan, I will fight with the lads from the terraces, even though I am not happy with many performances this season 
.
March 16th, 2009 at 17:57
@Craig Mc: Evra is trying very hard to pry the door wide open for Fabio or a summer spending spree in the direction of one Philip Lahm. I personally think he is carrying a foot or leg injury because he has become slow all of a sudden and he seems to be fighting his fitness. His hesitation and lack of positioning is alarming. He may need some recuperative rest or a time on the bench to wake him out of his slumber as he watches Fabio steal his job.
March 16th, 2009 at 18:06
@Grognard: Ha ha he and Bendtner!!
March 16th, 2009 at 18:08
@Craig Mc: You forget the chance Gerrard missed late in the game and the other two chances that just missed because a wide open player did not get the ball in a sure goal scoring position after beating Rio. That was when we were down to ten but it could have easily been 6-1. How many clear cut great chances did we have in the game?????? We were total complete and utter shite and we deserved nothing from the game.
You can stay as convinced as you like Bro but the bottom line is they took our gifts while we were not able to steal theirs or buy our own. You are a true hard core supporter mate because usually they are unable to ever admit when they got their asses smacked around. We were a total embarrassment defensively and offensively. We had no business claiming we got robbed int hat game. Those fucking Scousers beat us and beat us good and we need to live with that and come to grips with it. And all the optimistic talk about this waking us up and it’s just what the team needed is also a bunch of crap.
This is the start of a slump like the one Barcelona went through for 4 or 5 games. All teams go through a low period where nothing works. I seriously doubt we will recover our form and play this weekend like nothing happened. We will probably squeak out an undeserved win and struggle for a few games to find our form and confidence again. It will eventually come but make no mistake, a game like this leaves a lingering hangover of doubt and ill feeling. Players are not machines that can bounce back easily from something like this because they are human and because they are questioning themselves right now and wondering if they are that good. I have got a bad feeling about this and so it’s back to my doom and gloom period after such a nice spell where I was feeling positive and optimistic. BAH HUMBUG!
March 16th, 2009 at 18:09
@Grognard: Grog I watch all the reserve games live on MUTV, and Fabio is good going forward, but not NEARLY good enough defensively. I don’t think he is as good defensively as Raphael, in spite of the reports that he is supposed to be the better of the two. No Way Jose.
March 16th, 2009 at 18:11
@Craig Mc: I’m United through and through to mate but when London gets bombed by the Nazi’s I don’t say it was just a flesh wound. I guess I look at the game a little differently and my experience seeing how teams react to this kind of thing in other sports also gives me a psychological perspective on what to expect. I just have a nagging feeling that it’s going to get worse before it gets better.
March 16th, 2009 at 18:12
@Craig Mc: We will bounce back no doubt, th e team has too much character and ability to let this defeat hurt us ling term, what I saw of the game was simple we were poor, Liverpool were not much better, but out mistakes cost us, Torres, Gerrard the best player on the pitch??, no their best player was Mascherano.
March 16th, 2009 at 18:13
@Stephen: Last it me I checked Bendtner was beating Anderson in EPL goals by at least 15-0 over the past two years. You like to tease but sorry, I don’t see the joke. I’d take Bendtner over the “No Poacher” any day of the week.
March 16th, 2009 at 18:14
@Craig Mc: And Evra has been good for us defensively of late? I say put him in there and let me see for myself. Also, he may take more liberties playing with the reserves than he would with Fergie watching him.
March 16th, 2009 at 18:15
@Craig Mc: Not everybody!
when some people take off their “John O Shea is worthless and doesn’t ever add anything to United” specs, maybe they can see the light and see why Fergie relies on him so much, maybe 
Fuccccccccccccccck
As the sign says “Welcome to Manchester, European capitol of Trophies”
@Craig Mc: again i agree with you Bro, our midfield has been missing Hargo big time! Oh how i miss the steadiness, stability and his overall reading of the game.
But Hargo is injured, so Fletcher should have got a run, imho we should have brought on Fletcher, Nani early in the second half to shore up the center of midfield and offer more in attack and distribution.
Oh how it still hurts! 4 fuckin 1, its almost like i was on the piss, got into a right state, then had a really bad nightmare, and woke up on Sunday morning in a jocker, to realise “that wasn’t a nightmare!!!
Fuck them, let them have their day, we’ll win the treble and thank those scouse gits for the kick in the hole at the end of the season
March 16th, 2009 at 18:16
@Grognard: Did you watch Bendtner on Saturday mate he was awful, also one is a forward and fuck knows what the other is, Anderson is not a favorite of mine so won’t compare, Anderson is not United quality but neither is Bendtner Arsenal quality.
March 16th, 2009 at 18:16
@Grognard: Do enjoy your doom and gloom period Grog
. Me I’m fighting fit and raring to go for my trip with the lads to Fulham. I do all my complaining on this site, and down the pub, but when shove comes to push, I will be there, MANIC and giving it large on the terraces.
As for Gerrard, you stroke his cheeks Grog, I want him in the CL and kick his feckin arse. Hardcore supporter – DAMN RIGHT I AM.
. 
.
March 16th, 2009 at 18:16
All I needed to make me as ill as a Hell is to see the headline story in today’s football section on the SUN online. I just feel like puking.
March 16th, 2009 at 18:17
@Craig Mc: I think what Fergie said really sums it up. I can’t remember the exact quote but it was something like ‘when you win 4-1 you take the plaudits and deservedly so. It’s hard to take when I feel we were the better team on the day’ It was something like that anyway
March 16th, 2009 at 18:23
@Grognard: my dad gets the paper every day and I just looked at the back 3 pages and it’s all about Fergie cracking up and Liverpool being the best team in the world
March 16th, 2009 at 18:26
@phoenix red: Phoenix – hahahahaha, talk about the HARDCORE fans, well here we are
. Stephen, Colver, Eddie mi man, Traverse, the nutter Craig Mc – what more do we need 
. I hope we OUTSHOUT every fuck in London and Fulham this weekend. Let our voices be heard. The whole bloody country has been WILLING our downfall, and look at the press FURORE. I hope our lads turn it on against Fulham, because shit face Gerrard is spouting all over the media that THEY are going to storm the premiership NOW. I tell you two wins, and they think they are the fuckin Taliban. We shall not be moved.
March 16th, 2009 at 18:26
To put it extremely simply, our defence let us down for once. We still had a goal to show for our efforts. But then this defence was not the defence which helped us win 1-0 for some 10 games out of the 27 till now. SO we lost. Bottom line still remains, shit defence implies shit game.
March 16th, 2009 at 18:27
ferguson made a big mistake. he shouldnt have played rooney but instead fletcher hold in a tree man midfield along side anderson and carrick. rooney was tired after inter game. fergie shouldnt have played an open game, this left ferdinand and vidic exposed against blistering pace of torres and gerrad getting in dangerous positions. anderson is not a midfield player and likes to push up more which leaves carrick isolated. liverpool needed a win badly, fergie should have played a counter attacking football with ronaldo tevez and park. a draw would have been more likely this way or a 1-0 win. also second half could have put more experience onto the pitch to see liverpool off. finally i believe van der sar is almost done, its time to trust in foster, very good in 1-1 stopping.
March 16th, 2009 at 18:29
@Liam: Liam this post is the best you have made in a LONG TIME
. The day Fergie cracks up during squeeky bum time, is the day Nelson gets his eye back. We all know how unlikely that is. The players, maybe but hope not, Fergie NEVER.
March 16th, 2009 at 18:31
@Liam: That’s what I mean Liam. It has nothing to do with sour grapes. I really believe that we were the better team until the sending off.
March 16th, 2009 at 18:35
Come on your fuckers, is it only the hardcore like Grog is saying, that believe the song we always sing – COS MAN UNITED NEVER DIE? Where’s the do it or die spirit. I feel the temperature rising, the passions coming BACK
. We should chant that from the terraces at Fulham, and fight fire with fire. What you mean those shit heads in scouseland have more SPIRIT than the UNited faithful, I don’t feckin think so. Feel the temperature rising, we got the fire turned on.
March 16th, 2009 at 18:38
@Craig Mc: I AGREE MI MAN, COME ON BOYS KEEP THE FAITH, CHAMPIONS OF ENGLAND, CHAMPIONS OF EUROPE!!!!!
March 16th, 2009 at 18:42
Has anyone seen that absolute tosspot former Chelsea player on Sky Sports news? He looks like the biggest slimeball on planet Earth spouting a load of shit in his stupid cockney accent about how United will be caught. What a fucking prick!
March 16th, 2009 at 18:42
@Craig Mc: Sorry mate but I have never been great with blind faith. I am a hard core supporter but my logic kicks in every so often and causes me to question things. I hope the team can put this loss behind them and move on. They probably will but I am expecting a bit of a slump. They are due regardless of the loss. Unlike you I can’t benefit form enjoying the game on the terraces or in a pub with mates. For me it’s television a long ways from Manchester. So I feel a little removed and therefore I tend to analyze a game a little more like a member of the media. My heart and soul is in it but because I don’t have all those outside stimulants like a friends, thousands of screaming supporters and several pints of ale, I tend to intellectualize the game a bit too much for my own good. That’s where the doom and gloom come from. I so love to win that losing terrifies me and can make me a bit pessimistic. But overall, to know me is to love me.
March 16th, 2009 at 18:45
@Liam: I’m talking about the Sun online and their little Godfather Rafa take. It’s bloody sickening. Now he thinks they are the best team. Well we let him think that now didn’t we? It just infuriates me.
March 16th, 2009 at 18:46
@Liam: Not Jason Cunty?
March 16th, 2009 at 19:01
@Stephen: yeah I think so. He is easily the 3rd most infuriating person I’ve ever seen talking about football after Rafa and Gerrard
@Grognard: love this quote “Liverpool has been the team in Europe over the past 5 years. It is a FACT’. Shut up prick. That is easily the most childish article I’ve ever read ‘maybe my English id not good enough but I do not understand the Scottish accent’. So fuck off home then. But then I turn the page in the hope of finding some good journalism but I’m greeted with ‘Who’s cracking up now Fergie’ and ‘Gerro: we can still win the title’. I mean surely somebody in the paper must have the common sense to tone down the amount of shite that they print? It actually made my blood boil just reading it
March 16th, 2009 at 19:15
@Stephen: God I hate that fat cockney prick.
March 16th, 2009 at 19:16
@Liam: Micky Quinn is up there too mate.
@Grognard: Sorry mate wasn’t teasing just trying to lighten the mood!
March 16th, 2009 at 19:17
@edwin: Me too is he is an absolute cunt.
March 16th, 2009 at 19:36
for me, our main problem is a complete lack of pace upfront. simple as that.
the diifrence between the two sides was painfully obvious to me, any time pool got the ball you knew Torres could cause havoc, by utilising his pace, gettin in behind our defenders.
our strikers, as exceptional as they are have no pace.
i cnt remember the last time i saw a player in our team score a goal like pools 1st.
that is ouir main problem. It means at times our play is too congested, we havnt really got an outlet in the team bar Ronaldo, who at present is completely against hittin the by-line, run @ defenders etc. its all to reliant on him as hes the only one who carries any actual pace. it sickens me.
Its part of the reason why i feel Nani is so improtant to our set up, i know hes not in good form, sloppy in possesion ~@ times but atleast he gets himself in dangerous positions in behind defenders.
we need that on both flanks as our stikers are ALL trying to come deep n play. its frustrating as fuck sometimes.
i mean fair play were all nit picking here, were a spoilt bunch, our team/squad is nearly perfect! Still tho- This is our main problem i beleive
God if only we could hve captuted Torres b4 the scum did! would have saved us 10million plus given us footballs best partership in ROONEY & TORRES.
These two in the same team would just be special….but what can ya do eh!
guess we’l just have to make do with the classy but frustratingly sluggish Berbatov.
March 16th, 2009 at 19:40
@Liam: I have to struggle to think over the years on whether I have hated anyone as much like I hate the fat waiter. It’s a fact.
Seriously, I remember in the late 90’s and for the first four or five years of the new Millennium hating Wenger and also hating Mourinho but I can honestly say that Rafa has leaped over all of them. There is just something incredibly dislikeable about the man and every fucking time he opens that lispy fucking Spanish trap of his and says stupid and ridiculous things. I think it’s his personality that drives me mad with rage. I have stated in the past that unlike many of you, I have never disliked Liverpool as much as I disliked Arsenal and then Chelsea. For me they were the rivals that got under my hair. I could hate their managers but their players just rubbed me the wrong way. Liverpool’s players just don’t rub me the wrong way. Perhaps it’s because I don’t fear them or respect them. Other than Torres and Gerrard, the club is full of gits and tossers. I only laughed at them for the past 20 years and laughed at them and their comical play as well as their useless and comical legion of muppets and criminals who support them on game day, and rob their homes during away games.
But things have changed. And I thank Rafa Benitez for helping me finally see the light. For having me finally get in line with all the Manchester United fans who hold Liverpool in first place amongst the most hated and despised rivals. Bill Shankly and Bob Paisley couldn’t get me to hate themas much and certainly the likable Gerard Houlier couldn’t get me to hate them. Only that lispy used car salesman/head waiter named Rafa could find a way to get sufficiently under my skin enough that I could hate that club with such passion and venom despite not having a Vieira, Seaman, Henry, Drogba, A Cole, Terry or Gallas to hate and want dead. For years I have laughed at the Carraghers, Reina’s, Skrtl’s, Gerrard’s and especially Kuyt’s who truly and try and always come off as not good enough and not even close to being good enough. Oh sure they had some success in the Champions League because they were able to reduce two legs into a game of attrition and boredom and credit to them for having the patience to wait while superior teams came up for air and blinked.
Hell I hate Rafa so much I’d like to place a bounty on his fat head. That ugly bug eyed cunt with a goatee who opens his mouth and speaks like a Tranny in training and who never has anything intelligent to say except that he is truly an ass clown. And that my friends……IS A FACT.
So Liverpool has become Public Enemy #1 and my dart board will have John Terry’s face taken off it and that fat waiter’s face placed on it. I might have to shrink the picture a bit because his fat head is now even larger and harder to contain within the dimensions of the board. All that hot air and bologna has expanded his head to the size of Sam Allardyce’s ass. And I would risk saying that Big Sam’s ass is better looking and more intelligent also.
And once again….. that is a FACT.
March 16th, 2009 at 19:42
@Stephen: The reason I thought it was teasing is because I am actually one of the few that like Bendtner and sees future greatness in him. I might be wrong but to be honest at the risk of sounding egotistical, when I pick players out like that, I rarely am wrong.
March 16th, 2009 at 19:43
@realred: Rooney is one of the fastest players in the league. He’s definitely as fast as Torres. However, I agree that we should’ve pulled out all the stops to get him. Just think, instead of having Berba right now we could have Torres and if not for CQ poisoning SAF’s brain we could have Ribery instead of Nani/Anderson
March 16th, 2009 at 19:50
@realred: Pace is overrated. Pace is important but proper positioning and being willing to get pushed around a bit but not lose your position and desire is key. Berbatov and Tevez do not like physical contact and thus, they seem indifferent to the box. What’s sad and what many seem to miss every game is the number of times Berba is actually in a great scoring position but nobody can get him the ball because they can’t cross, pass or in most cases are too selfish to look up and make the right decision. Pace is nice but need I bring up the great teams of the past both on a club and national level that never required pace to be great. It’s a bonus when you have it but in the end, it’s still about common sense and fundamentals. This club occasionally drowns in it’s players own self serving attempts to be heroes. Ronaldo, Tevez and others find moments where their team play betrays them and they go lone wolf. That kills us offensively more than anything. But not having players in key scoring positions enough and not taking enough quality shots is also a problem. This club’s chemistry is off and it will take time to fix. Lets not forget all those 1-0 games this year. as goals go, we are way off last year’s average. Berbatov was supposed to improve our goals, instead he has hampered it even though he is a creative and gifted player. It’s not often a great player is placed on your team and he actually hurts your team play.
March 16th, 2009 at 19:51
@Liam: The thing with Ribery is that the french press, all the football fans irrespectice of their club affiliation, were all going ga-ga on this boy when he first burst on the scene.
Remember how good Rooney was when he first burst in the Everton first team? And the ensuing media frenzy? Well that’s exactly what happened with riberyu in France.
I guess among the occasional regulars here a t redrants, if I may call myself as such, I am one of those having most exposeure to ligue 1. And it was so clear for all concerned that he was going to be a world beater. You have no idea how much I wanted him to sign for us. When he went to Bayern I thought that he had next to no chance to sign with us , knowning their ruthlessness to sell their best assets.
But I was pleasantly surprised when we signed both Nani and Ando, and Tevez was the icing on the cake.
But compare that piece of business to the state of things today. To think we could have had Ribery for maybe one or two millions more than Nani’s fee…
I’m sure most of us would gladly swap Nani+Andertson (and maybe even Tevez)for that boy Ribéry… 
March 16th, 2009 at 19:53
modern football is all about pace Grog. were severly lacking in it…..all throughout the squad when ya stop and think about it
March 16th, 2009 at 19:53
@Liam: Sorry mate but I am really tired of this song and dance about Torres. United tried all they could. Like Ballack, he didn’t want to play for us. In fact he didn’t want to play in England and the only reason he chose Liverpool was the Spanish speaking Benitez and the half dozen other Spaniards on the club. It was a culturally friendly move for him. He wanted nothing to do with United or any other no Spanish influenced team. Get over it.
March 16th, 2009 at 19:54
@Craig Mc: I know i agree with all you have said, WE are definitely going to bounce back strong. The team just needs some rest and refreshement and we’ll be fine. VIVA UNITED
March 16th, 2009 at 19:54
Grognard,
You like to intellectualise on the game, fair enough. Then here’s a question: where is the logic in saying we are in for a slump after one defeat? Logically speaking, the thumping defeat could be an outlier. Hell, there could be a backlash too. It is possible for the manager to drill into the players that it was after all Liverpool, who for all their years of mediocrity are still a team with Champions’ League credentials and inspire a backlash on Fulham. Logically speaking.
Again, by logic, we could conclude a team is on a slump when there is a slump. Say, dropping points against two mediocre sides in succession. Barca were in a slump when they did drop few points in succession. Had it been a solitary loss followed by wins, it would be a blip. Again, logically speaking, it’s happened many times in the past.
Your ‘nagging feeling’ that we are going to slump, is backed by instinct and, as you said, psychological perspective. It is only borderline logical, at best, to conclude that a team playing at a very high level after a crushing defeat will go on to possibly concede the season. The fact that we have Fergie, who has had the experience of blowing a sizeable lead (to Arsenal in 97/98) will hold us in good stead.
March 16th, 2009 at 19:58
@realred: Sorry mate, that’s not true. It’s about balance and positioning and it’s far too technical to analyze on the basis of a purely English concept like pace. Italy and Spain are not leagues that worry about pace. Those leagues worry about possession and tactical superiority. Pace happens once in a while but most coaches don’t believe in running their players into the ground because season’s are long, fatiguing and running too hard pays a mighty toll after a while. It’s more like a game of “PACING” That’s what the smart teams do. You sit in your couch with a beer in one hand and Burrito in the other and you demand pace.
Easier said than done mate. I think I’ll use some pace rightnow and raid my fridge for a snack. 
March 16th, 2009 at 20:26
Grog- I strongly beleive pace in the right areas of the pitch is arguably the most valuable asset you can have.
guess its a matter of opinion but when i watch us play i cant help but think how much better we would be is we had a rapid stiker at least.
i am aware that the entire game doesnt revolve around it but the fact is that were lacking in that department. i think it goes some way to explain all these 1-0’s you refered to in an earlier post. we have a all the qulity in the world but sometimes you just need that extra cutting edge to capitalise on one off oppertunites.
to me , we miss too many of these oppertunites due to this reason. admitedly ii have noticed the poor vision/passing u mentioned but i feel the pace issue is more important.
and by the way i am convinced the reason for our dulled down style of play is deu to CQ’s departure. its hurt us, maybe not in terms of results but in our playing style. we just aint lookin sharp enugh out there, the players look like theyr lackin direction or something??
March 16th, 2009 at 20:39
@Liam: To many ifs to be honest, we didnt get either of them, deal with it. CQs tactics got us a double over liverpool last year, more then you can say about phelan, hardly poison id say.
March 16th, 2009 at 20:40
I want to see Fabio given a chance. Evras biggest weapon was his speed, but now that seems to have dissapeared. I hope it is only a problem recovering himself from his latest injury, but I dont think its only that. Evra is one of our fastest players, and sometimes our pace on counter attacks along with Ronny and Rooney. But he has reached an age were he gets slower by each day, so I wonder if he has got the time to fully recover. His last games have been absolutely hoorible. He got owned by Lennon and Gutierrez, gave lots of room to Zlatan and Ballotelli at Old Trafford, plus his terrible positioning for Stankovics chance, showed that even fucking Gerrard is faster than him right now(
), and it would be deserved if Gerrard went over to Evra after the game saying: “SNAAAARED!!!” 
I love Pat. You guys realise that. Ive said just a few weeks ago he was the best LB in the world, I got into the “semi finals” of the ROM competition “sing a song for the unsung” competition with “left back Pat” song, I use him as one of my most vital players in FIFA 09 and I admire him for everything. He is awsome, but now that his speed has left I feel I am only seeing the weaknesses of Evra. He seems to have no confidence at the moment! I know starting Fabio some games would only dent that confidence, but maybe that is what he needs? Competition, because he seems very complacent right now. With Oshea being our only RB at the moment, he knows that however bad he traings/plays, he will get picked. So come on Fergie, show your true winning spirit and start Fabio. Who scored a hat-trick in the reserves game against Rochdale tonight!
If that doesnt make you close to join the first team, I dunno what will!
March 16th, 2009 at 20:44
@Dan: But CQ got Citeh the double over us.
March 16th, 2009 at 20:48
@Grognard: have to agree with Craig, the scoreline flattered Liverpool and I also agree to a certain degree with SAF when he said that we were the better team on the day coz at no time during the 90 minutes did they carve us open with dynamic attacking football and it was refreshing to hear a work colleague who is a die hard Pool fan agree with me that Liverpool were not that good on the day, but the problem is they didnt have to be due to our defending.
Liverpool are not a great team, but they are great at what they do well, but for them to control the game in the way that they like reqires them to be either winning or at least drawing the game, then they can sit back, build two defensive walls and make it as difficult as they can for the other team, its a system that concentrates on stopping the opposition, rather than imposing yourself on the other team in an attacking way like us or Barca.
I know many people on this site already know the points that I am making, its not groundbreaking news, but what I do believe is people dont understand the dynamics of a game when two teams like United and Liverpool are playing and the best way I can desribe it is by using an old world war 2 illustration, which goes like this.
When the allied troops were approching the beaches of France, they were confronted with German troops strongly dug in in defensive lines from the beaches to further inland to the surrounding towns and villages.
Now the allied troops ultimately wanted o secure those towns and villages and this for them was victory, but they simply could not jump off the boats and achieve this quickly due to the heavy resistance they met at the front line, so they deviced a plan to get the ball rolling, and that plan was this, they didnt try to conquer the whole beach all at once, instead they concentrated thier efforts in securing small pockets of the coastline called beach heads, and once these areas were taken it allowed them to launch thier attacks from a more favourable position and bit by bit as the germans were moved out of thier positions they became more vulnerable to the allied attacks.
Securing these beach heads was arguably the most important thing to do coz it meant the Germans had to reajust and change thier plan, so my point is this, United were confronted twice this season wih the strong defensive tactics of Liverpool, and twice they gave them self a strong beach head in the games by scoring first, this would ultimately have forced Liverpool to change thier tactics as they searched for an eqaliser and this would have given us the opportunity to hit them hard again, so having gained these important beach heads, it was astonishingly stupid to so easily surrender them and this is why I think that the mistake that Vidic made for the Torres goal completely changed the context of the game, coz its my firm conviction that if we could have held the lead until half time, then we would have gone on and won the game handsomely like last year coz until Torres scored, w were in control.
We might not like to say it, but Liverpool are not the soft touch they used to be and when they get thier noses in front they are a tough nut to crack and it is vital not to concede any footholds gained, coz like saturday showed, very rarely do Rafa Benitez teams allow you to regain the foothold a second time, its not pretty, its certainly not my cup of tea, but it is effective, unless you score first and hold it for a while, then your in buisness.
March 16th, 2009 at 20:50
@RedDevilEddy: I also want to see Fabio given a run out against Fulham. Like you mentioned he scored a Hatrick against Rochdale. I haven’t watched any U18 or Reserve Games (not having MUTV is a pain) but whenever i read a match report the two players who ALWAYS score are Fabio and Welbeck. Fabio can play at right back, he is right footed, so give him a run out against Fulham and give O’Shea a rest, especially as he’s been pretty piss poor over the past few games
March 16th, 2009 at 21:00
Im just looking over some comments here. I gotta say, it nearly makes me roll on the floor laughing! If there is a scouse coming on a visit to this site, he would be pissing himself! People here are saying that nothing is correct or right with our squad, and that we should replace every player. I know I have been guilty of doing this myself, but some of you are taking it over the edge! We lead the Premier League, have scored the most goals, let in the fewest, unbeaten in more than 20 CL games, winners of the Carling Cup and World Champions, semi finals of the FA cup and the cuarter finals of the Champions League. Let me tell you, most fans would kill to be in our position!!! And you guys are talking like we were a relegation threatened team!!!
I dont think we need much changing or blaming Phelan when everything goes wrong. Hell, we dont need to sell 4 players and buy 4 new. I just think we should improve on some areas. I miss the pacy United that made me a supporter of them, the fear in opposition defenders when they saw the likes of Beckham, Giggs, Ruud, Cantona, Ronaldo or Rooney running towards them, the unpredictablity of our team, and especially the way we created chances. I dont think we need to buy many new players, and I dont think we need to sell any either. Forget what I said yesterday and the day before that, I was fucking depressed and embarrased about the `Fool result! Now Ive found my “sanity”, and I think its time you do to. We have the best squad in the world. We will never be unmistakable, we are only human beings and one old scottish God.
But we should maybe reconsider our tactics, not because I think this will get us better results, but better performances! Which I think is what we are lacking this season- Performance!
First of all, I would like to change the formation. Rooney in front of Berba clearly doesnt work, at least if Berba is going to run as little as he does. Rooney will automaticly run back to his own half because its his nature, and we cant do anything about that. I would like Fergie to think about using this a little more often next season:
Foster(yeah, he needs games. I am thinking about the future)
Rafael Rio Vidic Evra
Carrick Hargreaves
Ronaldo Giggs Rooney
Berbatov
If Berba cant play as a lone frontman, then I think either Welbeck or Campbell should be given a chance. Either that, or make Rooney the ST and push Nani out to the wing. And if neither Hargo or Evra recovers, Fabio and Anderson should be given a run. We played our best football the last years with a 4-2-3-1 formation. 7-1 against Roma, 4-0 against Arsenal, 3-0 against Liverpool, 4-1 against West Ham and 3-2 vs Milan. I think this formation is what suits our players best, because that team is made of pace, skill, vision, and deadly goalscoring instinct.
March 16th, 2009 at 21:01
forget fabio vs fulham..are uz MAD???
ppl are awful fickle man, Evra is number 1 LB, No questions asked
his form will return, you can bet on it
March 16th, 2009 at 21:02
@Nick: Oshea has been doing alright lately. If there is anybody who has played piss lately its Evra, and he is the one needing competition. And maybe also a rest…
March 16th, 2009 at 21:02
@realred: Hey, i said in place of O’Shea not Evra. No matter Evra’s form he should be one of the first names on the team sheet.
March 16th, 2009 at 21:03
@realred: Im not saying Fabio against particulary Fulham… But if we are 2-0 or 3-0 up at around the 60th minute, he should be given a run. Plus, with him on the field we might score from a close range free-kick for once.
I tell you, he is a monster from set-pieces! 
March 16th, 2009 at 21:06
I think Fergie only made one mistake with the team against Liverpool. And that was a fateful one! We should have played with a 4-5-1 instead of a 4-4-2. Gerrad was given lots of room in the middle of the field, and even though I dont think he dominated he did take advantage when the chance was there for him to do so. We should have started with maybe Fletch, Carrick and Anderson in a CM 3, with Rooney and Ronny on the wings, Tevez up front. I know its hard leaving out Park, but he simply isnt a CM. I think that was were Liverpool hurt us…
March 16th, 2009 at 21:09
And also, you guys keep talking about buying Torres. Forget about it, because even though he is a terrific striker we will never get him when he has played for Liverpool. Fergies policy. Besides, the closest we will come to finding another Torres is David Villa. Although older, I think he is the only striker in the world better than Torres. If he was playing for a better team than Valencia, he would probably be a contender for most player of the years. He can score all types of goals… Id take him anyday!!!
March 16th, 2009 at 21:34
@RedDevilEddy: I’m done with all the sucking so now me head is a lot clearer. I agree with your take on the formation Fergie should have gone for. There is absolutely no logic in leaving Giggsy and Fletch off the starting XI. I think that’s where we lost it tactically. Ando should have come on later is what i think. That said, I need a massive performance in a run of games by Evra to restore my faith in him. As for Berba, dont even know what to say. Seeing him perform below par just hurts. In between, I’d love to see Nani against Fulham.
March 16th, 2009 at 21:40
@Fred The Red: OK, I’ll go along with the fact that Liverpool didn’t show us all that much, but beyond all the back slapping and hugging that’s going on here, United were truly awful on the day, and in every department.
You can’t overlook the the following facts:-
1/. Defensively we have looked shaky for a couple of weeks. Evra, in particular, has had a terrible time protecting his flank. Centrally there seems to a lack of communication and because of that EVDS has begun to dither in certain situations too. O’Shea has been OK, not great, but hasn’t given a whole lot of support to the attacking right side.
2./ In the midfield we are struggling to find a consistancy among available players, there just doesn’t seem to be the ideal squad that we could field on any given match day. Their pace on Saturday was painfully pedantic and the accuracy of passes delivered from both the backfield and into our forwards was poor.
3/. In attack, we have struggled all year and there are no signs of it getting better soon. Ronaldo is a shadow of the man that called himself Ronaldo last season. Tevez has been off form all season long, showing little else but a strong heart and a motor that won’t quit. He does’t seem to be in the right place at the right time and if an opportunity does come his way his control lets him down!!
Which brings me to Berbatov. Aside from his occasional moment of brilliance, he just doesn’t seem to be in the same game that the rest of the team are playing. His lack of running pace, or his lack of desire to run at pace, has made him stand out as an under-achiever and by most standards set forth for a striker, he has under-achieved!!
It could be that this result will spur them all on, make the extra effort, pay more attention etc., etc., but there does seem to be some deep rooted problems with this team that only a change in personel could improve!!
March 16th, 2009 at 22:00
@Red Ranter: Because I have that kind of loss lead to worse many many times in many sports mate. I have seen teams go on long winning streaks and then lose. And when they finally lose, they lose again and again. It happens in hockey, basketball and baseball all the time. Great teams go into slumps. We were not great against Inter but got away with it. Believe it or not, that was the beginning of the slump. Slumps don’t end with one game. Fortunately we play Fulham next but they will be bent on revenge and we are on the road. If we win, it will be an ugly win. It’s going to take us some time to forget the humiliation and crushing knock our egos after Saturday. Players are only human and they will start feeling low and have doubts after their poor performance. Only time will cure that problem.
You don’t agree with me, fine, I’ll live with it, but I speak and make sense whether you want to agree with that or not. It may be borderline logic to you but it it’s full blown logic to me based on 40 years of watching sports and seeing what games like that can do to good teams. Fergie no longer brings the hair dryer out and lets players have it. He is too laid back to scare them straight. I hope I’m wrong but I’m afraid we may actually give up our lead in the league before we take it back. Too many players of late have been struggling with their form and now we have to concern ourselves with no Vidic for three game, a very sub par Evra, a Rio who is looking shaky, A central midfield that is non existent, a Ronaldo who is being double teamed and fouled into submission, and two strikers who for whatever inexplicable reason are just not delivering for the money they are being paid. And now that our keepers shutout streak is over, he seems very beatable. Lets not forget the goal posts that Inter hit and the other near misses Inter had in that game.
Fortunately we play Fulham next and not a Chelsea or Arsenal because if we were playing a really good team on the road, we would have a repeat of last weekend. I’ll leave it to Fergie and the lads to prove me wrong, otherwise, nothing you or anyone else says will change my view which is based on a lot of experience over the years watching and analyzing the ebbs and flows teams go through in long and grueling seasons. One thing I will say, more so than their poor form or lack of skill at times, the real problem with the team is nothing more than good old fashioned fatigue. We are not alone here but no team in Europe has had a more grueling and more difficult schedule to endure than we have had. It’s finally catching up to the lads.
March 16th, 2009 at 22:04
@realred: Pace is important but I would say a player’s skill level and the ability to get open and make plays in any kind of speed is more vital. I actually prefer the game when the ball is doing most of the work. A man cannot outrace a ball passed hard or long. Our off the ball movement is terrible as we are caught often ball watching both on offense and defense. We need to assist the player with the ball by moving into proper positions to get a pass and make something happen. Our players don’t have that special ESP that they seemed to have at times last year int he final third. This year they just run into a wall and have no ideas. Amazingly, as poor as we are in crossing and aerial football, we have scored a fair amount of goals with the head. There is a clue there for you as to how we should play and how we can take advantage of the opposition. Pace cannot defeat positioning and height.
March 16th, 2009 at 22:14
@Fred The Red: No they never carved us up, we carved ourselves up. I’m not so sure which one is worse. For Fergie to say he thought we were better is just ludicrous. We got smoked 4-1 and the goals they scored were of the embarrassing quality. Christ sometimes as supporters we all are so frakken fickle. Had we beaten them like that 4-1 we would have laughed ourselves into a hospital stay if Rafa had said they played better. We were complete and total shit, not shite, but SHIT.
I have never been more mortified and ashamed of my team than by Saturday’s performance. and I was feeling like that when we were down 2-1. The last two goals and the few extra near misses they had just added salt to my already gaping wounds.
Some of you guys are having real problem facing facts and reality because your pride and self esteem is at risk. NEWSFLASH! Manchester United is still the best team in the world but they are human and they had an off day. Hell it was more than off day, it was a worst case scenario, apocalyptic calamity of a day that we will never forget. Oh but we played better than them. That just sounds so sad and pathetic.
Accept the fact we bent down and had size 12 cowboys boots dipped in Scouse and shoved up our rectal regions. Sorry for the graphic analogy but I call a spade a spade. The sooner we face that we got massacred, the better off we can pick up the pieces and move forward. I for one am sick from this loss as it affected me in terrible ways. And I’m just a supporter who lives many thousands of miles away. Living and breathing in Manchester these days has got to be difficult after that humiliation to hated rivals. A bitter pill indeed.
March 16th, 2009 at 22:27
@Fred The Red: You were using the beachhead analogy from The Battle for Normandy in 1944. I get your point but for me let me compare things to the Battle of Stalingrad. Where an overconfident army entered a city proud as peacocks and up to that point undefeated and then slowly theuy were forced into a type of warfare that they were not used to, and that they could not cope with. The weather turned ugly and all of a sudden a counter attack was thrown at them that surrounded them and literally starved them in to submission. If one goal against causes us to crack like that, then we are in serious shite. Now e were duped into a false sense of confidence and conceit and then we had a major does of reality launched against us that we could not stop because we were not mentally strong enough or prepared for on the day. Germans lost in Stalingrad because they had less ammunition, poor clothing, very little food and no ideas on how to gain the upper hand. Above all, they were a tired and badly injured army in need of rest. They were ripe for the picking and they fell into the Cauldron or trap like mice to cheese.
United started to believe all that was written and said about them. They have gotten complacent and lazy and Fergie hasn’t figured it out yet. He was pissed off with them after the Inter game. Well right there the problems should have ended right? Fergie reads them the riot act and they wake up and play a great game against Liverpool. WRONG! The riot act didn’t work because the mind is telling the body to do something and the body tells the mind to frak off. Meanwhile the body is trying to get the most out of the mind but the mind is elsewhere because it’s focus and concentration is too low to care. Why? FATIGUE. If Fergie is smart he will sacrifice the next two games and rest most of his big players. I don’t care if we lose. We need to get our star to recharge their batteries so that their bodies can once again start function ion partnership with their minds. Either that or our unbeatable force could be looking at a Stalingrad where FA Cup, Champions League and EPL go pooooffff like smoke.
March 16th, 2009 at 22:32
@RedDevilEddy: Oh so now we have to play a defensive fearful formation at home because we are afraid of Gerrard. Sorry mate but BOLLOCKS. We just didn’t play well and we started some kids like Anderson who weren’t up for it. You don’t play 4-5-1 against fucking Scousers at home. That’s bloody blasphemous. They should fear us because for twenty years, they have ben our bitches.
March 16th, 2009 at 23:35
@Grognard: No. Take out a striker with barely a first touch for most of this season for a hungry striker desperate to score against his enemy who once again sacrificed himself to do the job he was told to do and play out wide. Take a midfielder who was causing problems by continually giving the ball away and not tracking back (which with Gerrard in the opposition is frankly mindblowingly stupid) and replace him with someone who ALWAYS plays well in these games and can provide some sort of shield for a defence that needed stabilising.
And yes. I think that by the time Anderson hits 24 he’ll be a superstar. (start everyone of these sentences with ‘Usually’) His vision is brilliant, he can see the ‘hollywood pass’ he’s just not pulling them off regular. Playing with Scholes and Carrick can only improve this. When he goes on a run it’s brilliant, the ball is never more than about 6 inches from his foot. He is strong enough to hold players off, but immature as not to do it discreetly enough.
Obviously there is the matter of his first goal. Considering his penalties in both the Champions League and Carling Cup final it’s no nerves. Who knows. But when it comes… floodgates.
BELIEVE!
March 16th, 2009 at 23:55
@Grognard: Vidic is only out for 2 games. On your Stalingrad reference, you are saying we have never been in this position before? We are the champions 2 years running, we have lost 1 game at home all season and only 3 in total. If we win 8 out of our last 10 games we win the title and that is assuming Liverpool and Chelsea don’t drop points which is highly unlikely imo
March 17th, 2009 at 0:03
@Traverse: I have yet to see this vision you give Anderson credit for. Where is this beastie of a vision? You want vision? Riquleme has vision, Xavi has vision, Fabregas has vision, Gerrard has vision, van der Vaart has vision, Ballack has vision, Ribery has vision, Diego has vision. Anderson has shown none of the skills, finesse, ability to bring any subtlety or have the vision to dissect a defense like any of these players. Sure he’s 20 but has no change of pace (he’s full speed all the time, he has a heavy foot as he cannot thread a touch pass or lob a chip over a defense on to the path of a player like Carrick can. All he can do is 2 out of every 10 times he can thread a nice long and hard through ball that when it is successful, looks spectacular and gets guys like you overrating his very limited and highly suspect skill set.
I’ve seen enough of Anderson tolast a lifetime. Other up and coming greats had already made a great name for themselves at 20 or 21. Anderson on the other hand has gone backwards because frankly, the English game isn’t suited for his game. Then again, I’m not sure anything but the sandy beaches of Rio are suited for this player who lacks so many necessary ingredients in such great amounts that it’s frightening. Sure he has some great aspects to his game but the position he plays requires finesse, vision, being good with both feet, changing the pace of the game and finishing. Hell he can’t even head the ball. Perhaps a good haircut could cure him of that problem.
I have been patient with this young fellow long enough. For me the experiment has failed and it’s time to look to Plan B. He’s played long enough with Scholes and Carrick and even Hargreaves and I have not seen an ounce of improvement. Incredible how he has regressed and lets not even get into the goal scoring thing because that’s farcical and quickly becoming the thing of legend. I’d love to see how this guy practices or if he takes guidance well from other players because i find impossible to understand how he could not have improved in all aspects of his game from last season. Shocking really
Sorry mate but in Anderson I don’t believe. I’ve watched many young greats start up in my 50 years and I generally can tell who is great and who is not with only a few mistakes along the way. Nani for me has greatness in him but is on the wrong team to when it comes to bringing it out in him. Anderson, well he’s just an average and highly overrated dude with a bad haircut.
March 17th, 2009 at 0:13
@Liam: It’s not about position or losing a game. It’s losing a game to our most bitter rivals in a manner that is unbecoming to the team’s pride and history. We got thrashed at home to the Scouse Filth. That can only mean trouble for the team because I cannot imagine them coming out last Saturday flat as a pancake and with no desire or focus. And yet, that is exactly what happened. I will say it again for the umpteenth time FATIGUE. That is why I am worried. It’s one thing if the body is tired but when the mind shuts off, that’s time to panic. For their minds to shut off against a team like Liverpool is almost unforgivable. So forgive me if I am concerned. This not a regular occurrence and it may well be just freak occurrence, but to lose like that just doesn’t sit well with me.
March 17th, 2009 at 0:21
@Grognard: You say we might beat Fulham ugly, but then, we haven’t exactly been blowing teams away this season have we? If we eke out another 1-0, it just represents a return to type this season. We’ve had strings of 1-0s since December. So an ugly 1-0 win does not say whether we’re in a slump or not.
And regarding telling us to accept that the Liverpool win was a comprehensive thrashing, I can’t speak for the others so I will speak for myself when I beg to disagree. If your argument is that I am blinkered enough to not face facts, well it’s not strong enough because I have criticized the side when they’ve played poorly and got thoroughly spanked. You want to know when I’ve held up my hand at some recent spankings? Well here: Middlesborough away in 2005, Chelsea at the Bridge 2006, Milan in 2007. These were comprehensive beatings you can’t have an answer to.
But Liverpool on Saturday? Bleh! I gave Liverpool credit when we lost to them at Anfield — here’s my report of that game. So I have a history of being fairly logical about the results and giving credit to the opponent when it’s due. It’s the way I see it, and while I see no problem with the way you perceive Saturday’s result, I’m surprised you would presume people are screaming sour grapes just because it was Liverpool — disregarding a good number of people who may have actually arrived at that conclusion after a considered analysis.
March 17th, 2009 at 0:23
@Grognard: I’m not sitting well either!! Just can’t get comfortable about that loss. It’ not that we lost to the filth, that they did the double over us these season, or the incredible score line, but that we played so poorly right across the pitch. As you say, if we can’t get up for Liverpool at home, whats it gonna take to light the fire??
March 17th, 2009 at 0:46
@Grognard: Dude, now I think you are pulling it too far. I know you might be frustrated about the loss against Liverpool, but talking about Anderson as he is not wOrthy of being a footballer just sounds stupid and immature. You should control your emotions better. Yeah, this is coming from the guy worshiping Anderson. But only two months ago you said he had potensially everything needed in a midfielder, except for goals. Now you are practically saying Rafa Benitez would be a better midfield player. Maybe I am exagerating, but I cant help but feel your “Anderson outburst” is just a reaction to the horrible loss, and his performance. He wasnt the only one horrible that day, I think Vida and Evra were much worse.
Just think about reconsidering your feeling about Anderson. He is very young, and central midfield player doesnt usually set the world alight in an early age. He is not English, he is probably suffering from the so called “second season syndrom”, he has been injured a lot, has just came back from injury, had a lot to live up to after his fantastic last season, and the team Fergie is playing just isnt right for him. Why is it that it always seems like Anderson is playing well when Tevez and Roonaey plays, and not Tevez? I think Fergie knows what this kid has in him, and if he learns how to use it right he will become a powerful weapon for us. With Welbeck, Campbell, Fabio and Rafael, and also possibly Nani, as the United players of the future, the speed this possess will fit well with Anderson. I think the system United plays with Berbatov isnt right for him, because it is frankly boring and ruining the attractive United. Anderson seems to be the only one wanting to turn up the speed in those games, but with Fletch, Oshea, Park and Berba being as static as they are, its not weird his through ball goes to waste. If this was United two years ago, he would be perfect. If this is United two years from now, as I believe it will be, he will be perfect. But right now, he just doesnt fit… And you cant blame him for that.
March 17th, 2009 at 0:57
@RedDevilEddy: I think I am partly with Grog on Anderson. Of course, I’m sure he was exaggerating when he said Anderson’s not worthy to be a footballer, but he certainly has regressed this season, injury or not. There are so many glaring technical frailties in him that it’s hard to ignore the obvious downward spiral he seems to be headed at times.
And you don’t have to call him stupid and immature for just not agreeing with your assessment of Anderson.
March 17th, 2009 at 1:19
@Red Ranter: Im sure this has said before, but the regression of players such as Nani and Anderson have regressed, or at least not improved because the man who was responsible for bringing them to the club is no longer there. for about the millionth time i cry, bring back Carlos Quieros! keep phelan by all means, but only as a coach. CQ was the best Assistant manager we had… and as soon as he’s finished living out his dream of coaching his club (fair play to him… but looks like he’s out of his depth there) i hope Fergie begs him to return. If we’re going to have such a large contingent of portugese speaking players, then it makes sence to have an excellent Portugese speaking coach. This only strengthens the arguement to bring in Mourinho, but i personally don’t want him. But brining back CQ would almost certaintly see a direct improvement in the development and performance of Nani and Anderson. a final note, imagine how good the Da Silva twins would be with CQ around? they would be unstoppable!
March 17th, 2009 at 1:22
@RedDevilEddy: I think Park has some deficiencies but I’m not sure you could categorize him as static along with Fletcher, O’Shea and Berbatov!!!
March 17th, 2009 at 1:33
@Will: I disagree, with one year under their belts with CQ they should have been broken in to way things are done at OT. Do we really have to have a full-time babysitter for every foreign player we sign??
And your point on Rafael and Fabio should show you that non-English speaking players can thrive at OT without that said need!!
March 17th, 2009 at 3:31
@Red Ranter: Look RR, the score was 4-1 Liverpool. The worst home loss United has suffered in the EPL in 17 years and the worst loss to Liverpool at home in 73 years. You call it what you want and let me spew my venom because as far as I’m concerned and as far as all the non United fans and media are concerned, that was a royal butt kicking. So hide behind your words all you want. I’m calling it the way I saw it and that’s that. At the end of the game the team does not win based on style points. It’s the scoreboard. United 1 Liverpool 4. As far as others are concerned, I am seeing things quite clearly thanks. Screaming sour grapes isn’t insulting them.
March 17th, 2009 at 3:42
@Redrich: For me it is losing twice to Liverpool, loosing 4-1 at home to Liverpool, Losing to a bitter rival that is filth and looking so bad in the process. Have given up four goals like that in an entire season yet alone in one game at home? They weren’t just goals against, they were goals the exposed our defense as inept and foolish. Vidic and Rio were Laurel and Hardy out there and O’Shea and Evra were members of the Keystone Cops. EVDS seemed very Dutch as one of the dykes broke and everything poured into his goal. It was a season’s full of errors all in one game. And for those who cannot see that and feel concerned suffer from blind faith and denial and RR can gripe to me all he wants. Unlike others I am very capable of removing myself from the die hard blind loyalists and pointing fingers at guilty parties. I don’t live in Manchester and I answer to nobody. We stunk and I hope a nice bath will solve the problem. I just hope the stink on Saturday was not the beginning of rigor mortis. Our back four has been breached and nobody is safe. Where is Jack Bauer when we need him?
March 17th, 2009 at 4:01
@Grognard:
I completely understand what you’re trying to say and don’t even expect you to change your opinion of the game, but given you’ve shown little effort to see my point of view, and made sweeping generalisations of people based on a difference of opinion, I’ll pass.
March 17th, 2009 at 4:02
@RedDevilEddy: First of all it is you who is drastically exagerrating things. In my condemnation of the player I have mentioned aspects of his game that I like. But I cannot turn a blind eye any longer to his massive and obvious inadequacies. Read other people who aren’t United fans feelings on Anderson not only for this game but overall. He frankly sucks in the eyes of more neutral fans. As fans of a team we are quite fickle at times and it is normal for all of us, me included to jump on and off the band wagon when players do good and bad.
There have been times when I have watched him play and said Hmm….maybe, just maybe. But then he will suck for four games in a row and any credit and faith he may have gained from me is lost. Frankly as far as I am concerned, he’s not good enough. There, I have said it Eddy, Anderson is not good enough. Not for United and to start in the center of our midfield. I’ve had enough, and I cannot take the teasing anymore. One good game and four bad ones is a cycle I’d like to get rid of. Sell him to Spain where he belongs and where his game can grow and mature. And as far as calling me immature mate, I ‘ll let that slide. Coming from a 16 year old, I’ll take a pass on a comeback there because I do like you and respect you. But you should know , I feel mighty offended by that. When I take the time to write with great thought and passion on this site, I take exception to be called immature or childish or above all, stupid. You know very well that I am far from being stupid, so that coming from you of all people is shocking and hurtful.
Every so often something will piss me off or get me in a mood to write negative stuff. This week I am justified by a truly abysmal performance by my beloved United. I was beyond gutted on Saturday, I was embarrassed and felt sick at what I had witnessed. So I had to write about it and share my honest and sincere comments with my friends on Red Rants. I knew some of what I had to say wasn’t going to go over well but to have some criticize the fact I was telling the truth is one thing, but to be also called an immature idiot because I have the bollocks to say a player who plainly sucks doesn’t cut it, is just a little too much for me to stomach. So I think I’ll take a rest and stop writing because it’s clear that to some, the truth hurts.
March 17th, 2009 at 4:17
@Red Ranter: I do see your point mate but I’m just so sorry, I saw a different game from you. Perhaps we just look at the game differently. I kind of laugh how some people said we were running the show and had them on the rack and then I see Beachryan’s pretty accurate game review and I see ratings of 3 and 4 for a lot of players. Doesn’t seem like a game where we had them on the rack. Unlike Craig, I never believed for a second that we would tie the game or win it when we were down 2-1 around the 60th minute. Nothing they were doing gave me any encouragement whatsoever that they were going to salvage a point out of the game. And when Fergie finally makes substitutions, it seemed so forced and like and act of desperation. I am having such a hard time handling this loss because my eyes and mind saw a game where we were thoroughly smacked around the pitch for 90 minutes and then given two knockout blows at the end just to rub it in.
As for sweeping generalizations, go to all the media sites. It seems my sweeping generalizations are being mimicked by 90% of the media out there.
And yes we may not like the British media for their opinions but a game review is a game review and that many people who are neutral can’t be wrong. Remember, many of them hate Liverpool even more than us. Listening to Bobby McMahon sum it up on Fox Soccer Report this evening says it all. He called it as I saw it. So are we all wrong or am I generalizing again? In this debate I seem to have support from everyone who isn’t a United fan.
Many of the United fans reminded me of the Bush Administration. They see Hell freezing over and everything they do falling apart around them but refuse to admit they have had anything to do with it. It’s time for everyone to open their eyes and sit on their allegiance and loyalty a bit and call the game for what it was. And that will be the last I say on the matter because it truly is too painful for me to take. I am not trying to make enemies here, just give my views. One thing I do not suffer from is selective blindness.
March 17th, 2009 at 6:11
@Red Ranter: I’ve been brooding over your opening rant (or should I say moderation) all day and in many ways I have to disagree.
Your tone suggests that we should all make this game a total epiphany, a one-off, or shall we say, a forgivable experience.
As a moderator you are doing a fine job!! As a ranter you are putting most ideas to bed!
Love the idea that you could use your influence to pacify those who are in PTSD, it’s touching, but for me it’s not believable!! After that awful performance, you chose to point out that we are still ahead by a whopping 4 points. Almost like saying we jumped off the building, but it’s a very tall building and it’s a long way down!
To be honest with you, I just don’t think you’re being honest with yourself! If ever United needed a good slagging was now!! Who better to do it? you, the Red RANTER, not the Red COUNSELOR!!!
March 17th, 2009 at 6:30
@Redrich:
It’s funny that my saying we are four points ahead is dominating your judgement of my otherwise negative article. I have been far more negative than some of the other bloggers, like Scott for example.
There has been a bit of both if you read my piece again. I criticised Evra and Vidic. And expressed concerns over Ferdinand. If you want me to go hysterical, sorry, I can’t. If I come across as being dishonest, I’m sorry you think of it that way. I agreed with Fergie’s assessment — that we were poor against Inter yet we got away with it. In fact, I couldn’t get a match report out for that game, otherwise it would have been fairly negative despite the victory.
Yes, we are ahead by a whopping four points with the chance that it could become seven if we win our game in hand. Yes too many ifs and buts in that argument there, but jump on my back if we are to squander it from here. I’ll eat my hat and shoe then*.
I am neither going over the top with gushing praise nor am I hysterically mad. I found areas that were worrying to me and pointed it out in the article.
I am still quite confident of winning the league. But I will say I am not quite so confident of the Champions’ League and the FA Cup. There are two teams in those competitions that I fear facing. Hiddink’s Chelsea and Barcelona. I still don’t fear Liverpool.
* hat and shoe are made out of chocolate for me.
March 17th, 2009 at 6:59
I really had to force myself to not comment earlier…for obvious reasons.
The loss on Saturday is very, very hard to swallow. It’s Tuesday now and it still hurts. This is not even mentioning taunting from Pool fans.
My take on Saturday:
1. Liverpool were the better team on the day (this is a real painful one to utter).
2. No one person was to blame for Saturday’s performance. Collectively we sucked.
3. I feel Fergie got his tactics right. We just sucked at it.
4. Saturday showed how your defence can lose you games. Our defence totally sucked.
5. Saturday showed the after-effects of messing around in midfield too much. No cohesion.
6. When Liverpool went 2-1 up, I knew it was over (though admittedly I was not prepared for the humiliation of 4-1), because our team cannot seem to score lately. The chemistry between our forwards is completely messed up. Has been almost all season.
7. Pity it was Pool (and at home), but I am glad we got humiliated at this stage of the season. We needed a wake-up call. Maybe now Fergie will look at the team and our teamplay with more intent.
8. Not to make excuses, but I think the many ‘important’ games we played in such a short space of time really showed us up on Saturday. The guys seemed tired.
9. What pissed me off most about the game was the way everybody stopped playing after Vida got sent off. What the fuck! We paid for that 15 minutes. Who gave the team the right to just stop trying? THAT I feel is unacceptable.
10. I am curious to know what will happen to Steven Gerrard for the badge-kissing. Our captain got suspended for the exact same thing at Anfield. How come no-one mentioned his badge-kissing.
March 17th, 2009 at 7:04
ANDERSON IS A GOOD FOOTBALLER AND ONE OF THE GREATEST PROSPECTS IN WORLD FOOTBALL. He had an off-day on Saturday unfortunately, but at least he is still better than Fletcher. People criticise him for not scoring goals (and rightly so), but consider this, our forwards who get paid to score goals don’t even score goals in this team. Why is he now so bad?
I think the problem with Anderson is mentorship. I don’t think Fergie has the time or will-power to mentor him. He need someone like CQ. God I hope the Portugese FA hires Scolari back.
March 17th, 2009 at 7:09
3 Positives to take after Saturdays events:
1. We WILL bounch back big – time because of the humiliation.
2. We WILL win the league – because of our points gap.
3. Liverpool WILL cock up their next game or two – because of over-confidence, And they usually do.
March 17th, 2009 at 7:29
@Grognard: You comment:
“I’ve had enough, and I cannot take the teasing anymore. One good game and four bad ones is a cycle I’d like to get rid of.”
This seems to be a trend with quite a few of our players this season:
Ronaldo, Berbatov, Tevez, Scholes, Giggs, Nani, Wellbeck (forgiven for his immaturity), Fletcher, etc. I don’t think it’s the player’s fault. I think there is more to it and it needs to get addressed. I don’t feel he is a bad player at all. Someone need to establish:
1. Why has Anderson’s performance have stagnated this season – we paid a shit amount of money for him to develop
2. Why has Nani’s performance gone backward – we also invested heavily in him
3. How can we stabilise Ronaldo – he is very important to us, and does not seem to get in form (we’re almost at the end of the season).
4. Why has Rooney not reached the heights that were expected of him with the qualities he obviously still has
5. What prompted the events that plumeted Tevez’ self-confidence (was Fergie not happy with his performance of last season or did he not foresee the impact that the addition of another striker would have. Why did he not opt for a proven scorer?)
6. Why do our players get injured so often – it’s been happening for a few seasons now
7. Why is a great team – that had a lot of spending money – so heavily reliant on ‘over-thirties’ in such a fast paced league.
8. Why can United not seem to develop youngsters anymore?
9. Why can’t we depend on our forwards to score anymore?
I think we have much deeper issues at the club which affects players like Anderson’s performance on the pitch.
March 17th, 2009 at 8:44
@Karl: OK I see where you are coming from and I do agree over many of the concerns but allow me to ask one question. If we are in such sad shape and are weighed down with so many problems, how come we are the number one team in the world and defending champions of everything? I guess that means that to balance your 9 criticisms, there should be at least 9 positives that have allowed us to overcome all those problems and win the league two years in a row, the League Cup, the Champions League, The World Club Cup and we are in great position for a historic quintuple.
My point is that you are forgetting the troubles, trials and tribulations that other clubs are going through as well. No club is immune to this and all the other clubs have more disappointments and concerns than we do. How do I know this? Because we are in first and head for a quintuple while all the others are staring a big goose egg in the eye. Sure we have problems, but compared to the rest, we are living in Utopia. That doesn’t mean that we don’t have a right or a need to not complain or bring up the questions you pose. Valid ones indeed.
March 17th, 2009 at 9:31
@Red Ranter: I apoligise for calling him immature and stupid. But I didnt mean his feeling for Anderson were that, its just his handling of the result to Liverpool. Just two months ago he said Anderson had the potensial to become a great player, he had every asset needed except for goalscoring, that he was a splayer he wanted to see on the pitch when we go out to attack. Plus, saying that a player that won the “Biggest Young Talent” award over the likes of Pato, Aguero and Walcott isnt good enough to be a footballer, is just staggering. This is not my bias talking, because I have myself been irritated by Anderson this season. But I dont think it is down to him. I think its down to the lack of speed in the team. When he plays with Tevez and Rooney, he suddenly looks better than Kaka!!! But when he plays with Berba and Park, he looks like fat Ronaldo a year ago. I think he is improving his game, but he doesnt fit with the team play Fergie is having right now. I dont want him to be sold, because in a few years time when Welbeck, Rooney, Campbell, Rafael and Fabio are first team regulars, he will be the engine room.
March 17th, 2009 at 9:59
@Grognard: Well, first of all, I will apologise for calling you immature. And I didnt mean calling you an idiot, that might have gone completely wrong out! I just thought your critisism of Andy was waaaaay too harsh. So please, forgive me for that. You know I respect you, your opinions(well, most of the time
) and your inteligence in wrinting. I luv reading your thoughts! But when you talked about Andy that way, well, I just felt like you had never seen him play before. 
Now, look at the list of names you categorised in the “vision” category: Riquelme, Xavi, Gerrard, Diego, Van der Vaart, Fabregas, Ballack, Ribery. Except for Fabregas, all of them are over 24(Diego will be 25 later this year). Look back in time, to when Fabregas was a snotty little wanker in the Arse team. Van der Vaart started off as a striker in Ajax, Gerrard got like 1 assist each season. I can remember Pool fans going mental everytime he took a shot because 5 out of 6 times it would hammer into row Z. You are comparing 27-33 year old playmakers to a 21 year old Brasillian kid! Fabregas was hailed as the eternal playmaker for Arsenal a few year earlier, but just two years a go he couldnt score a goal to save his life! He wasted passes, but he has one thing to learn from that Andy doesnt. He had an Henry who was one of the fastest ever in the Prem, one that would go out to the win looking for balls so he could cut inside. Who has Andy got this season? A Ronaldo who pretty much spends the 90 full minutes on the wing? Rooney, who instead of going on runs, goes back to his own half to get the ball? Tevez, a headless chicken whose ball control is fucking terrible? Or Berbatov, the player that never goes on a run? And when he finally does, one of of a million times, he ends up creating a goal from where he could score himself. Please, I think Andy has done fairly well considering the player he is and the players around him. No fucking speed in the final third this season, no wonder his passes goes astray!
Neutral fans say he is shite. A few years ago they also said Ronaldo was shite. They said Evra was shite. Vidic was shite, Hargeaves was shite, Carrick was shite, some of them also think Rafael is shite. And to be honest, who cares what they think? Neutrals may watch one of 19 games, and that may be a bad game. If people watched the United-Liverpool game, they would say Rooney was shite. Ronaldo was shite. “Vidic is the worst defender ever!”, they would say. We United fans know what is bad and what is good in our team. We dont need advice from Liverpool fans, or Arse fans for that matter!
And finally, what is that about no talent?! You are talking about the player that won the “Best Young Talent” in Novemeber over Aguero, Pato and Walcott. Deary me Grog!
Anderson has everything needed in a midfielder for us. He is just young, and he will improve. I dont think he has improved much this season, but I dont think Ronaldo or for that matter Nani or Tevez has. Goals will come from him, he just needs to learn how to strike it cleanly. He has the vision, but sometimes I feel his brilliant passes dont work because either Rooney is running in the wrong direction, Berbatov doesnt move, Ronaldo doesnt make this cut-in runs he did before and Tevez just isnt interested in scoring goals! Sometimes its the team that makes the player, not a player that makes the team. Next time you critisise Andy for something that most of us feel isnt his fault, watch a little closer on the off ball movement. You know how many times Ive screamed at the TV because his passes goes to waste? And no, it isnt the quality of the passes he makes, it the fucking terrible movement by the attackers. He wants us to play fast football, I admire that. Because I feel that is what we need!
March 17th, 2009 at 10:14
@Grognard: Agreed. In fact, I do believe we have a hellava lot of positives going for us at the club. I did not want to list it, because it had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. What I mean by listing all the negatives is that we could be so much more better. I don’t particularly care about other teams’ problems. I would like us to sort out ours before they escalate. We are in no way in a crisis, but left unattended, we might well be heading towards one in the not-too-distant future. If left unattended, I can foresee the whole scadoodle collapsing the moment SAF retires.
Considering, for a debt-laden club, for how long can we sustain blowing money – like the 53m pounds for Nani, Anderson, Hargreaves if 2 of them flop and the other one is injury prone (has been since before we even signed him)? Lets not even start on our 90m pound strike-force. It is in the club’s best interest to deal with these (like they’ve dealt with Hargreaves by sending him on the 2 ops). We still need to sort out our medics though. We lost a good striker because of them.
March 17th, 2009 at 10:50
Its sad when fans criticise Anderson in particular.Rooney has had a patchy career for a player once dubbed the next big thing in England.No one seems to say shit when he plays piss poor games
March 17th, 2009 at 11:28
shit, lets see how we go this week against fulham,
obviously the loss can make us go two ways,
grognard, i know what you meant that teams can go on slumps after a long streak, but some teams can also keep on winning, and we do have the ability to do that,
lets see after fulham
March 17th, 2009 at 12:38
@Grognard: Every one of those players you mentioned at 5 or more years older than he is. It’ll come.
March 17th, 2009 at 14:27
The lessons I learnt from these two matches are the following:
1. The team’s tired but far from cracking up
2. Inter are worse than I thought
3. Liverpool, although still boring as ever, are getting closer to winning the league.
4. If Park has to play, then there’s something wrong in midfield.
5. With a nutter like Park in the middle of the pitch (a stronger version mind), the team could play a proper attacking wide man , like Nani.
6. I have total faith in Evans coming in for Vidic
7. The defence doesn’t come up against that calibre of striker every week, that was a painful, but maybe useful, reminder of what’s to come if they want to go all the way in Europe again.
March 17th, 2009 at 15:19
I now wish we get Pool in the CL.
March 17th, 2009 at 19:08
@RedDevilEddy: Your apology is accepted mate and appreciated.
As for your comments, yes the players I gave examples of are older than 20 but did you ever think that I have been watching those players develop over the years. I remember watching Riquelme when he was very young and Diego when he was younger than Anderson. Gerrard I remember as a teen as well as Fabregas and they all impressed me then much more than Anderson. In fact Anderson has been a bitter pill for me to swallow since he arrived. The first time I saw him play I liked certain aspects of his game and not others. I never saw what I like to see from an attacking midfielder. He had no grace. He was fast, chaotic at times and everything was done at full speed without a change of pace or a time to think before he acted. You have to remember that I have grown up myself liking a particular brand of football. I love a lot of the European continental style of football. Slower more precise and patient buildup. Ironically, Argentina plays it best these days. Their epic 30 pass goal against Serbia in 2006 is an example of the way I like to see the game played. On that basis I should absolutely be in love with Paul Scholes but there has always been something about his game that rubbed me the wrong way too.
I’ll be honest, Anderson was in my bad books from day one just because of the hair. Sorry but I am not a big fan of dreads. They just annoy me and all my Liberal leanings go in the toilet when I see a bunch of Dreadlock Holiday types walking around. They usually smell of Ganja and have those annoying Rasta Man attitudes. At least the ones I have run into. Having lived next to a few while in Toronto for a few years poisoned me against the attitude and the look. Call me old fashioned, call me out of touch but do not call me racist. It’s not about color or creed, it’s about ugly hair and cultures that don’t turn me on. Anyway, enough about the hair.
The real reasons for my not liking Anderson as much as much as maybe I should is his inability to play the game the way I like or I want him to. I’m not the manager at United but I am a loyal supporter who has his needs and wants and feels he knows what the team needs. Above all, I consider myself an excellent judge of talent. And I will challenge anyone who thinks differently. Unlike many, I knew after the first 30 minutes of watching Ronaldo that he was going to be the world’s best player one day. In fact I remember watching a game in a lounge while taking an upgrade class at a school and making that comment to my friend Chris. Like so many, Chris called him a showboat which is more the term used here in Canada as opposed to show pony. Well, I don’t see him that often anymore but Chris has often admitted to me that I was right and that he has eaten a lot of humble pie since. By the way, he was an Arsenal fan so he can be forgiven for his lack of vision. Over the years I have picked so many when they were between 19 and 21 and sometimes even younger and predicted great things for them or predicted that they would be a bust or overrated.
I remember seeing a teenage Ryan Giggs and actually predicting even greater things than he accomplished. I honestly thought he was going to be the best in the world at the time I saw him. I wasn’t that far off when you think about it.
My point is simple mate, Anderson has lacked many of the qualities that I look for in a player. The last for that position would be his horrendous finishing, but certainly that is the most glaring. But I said fine, Fergie has seen something in him, be patient, get beyond the hair and wait to see if he in fact blossoms into the player he was being touted as. Well he hasn’t. Two years and he has been on a slide heading downwards steadily. I have seen ZERO improvement in his overall game and I have seen ZERO signs of him improving in specific areas of his game where he is hopelessly lacking. I’m sorry but in two years a player has to have improved in areas where he is weak just through practice and repetition in training. Either this boy is as dumb as nails and stupid as a bag of groceries, or he is just uncoordinated enough to not be able to improve on his weaknesses. Enough excuse making mate. It’s been two years and my experience over the years tells me that unless injured, a player of that age makes significant progress in 24 months under the right coaching and leadership. So what, I am going to blame Fergie now? No way. What I question is Anderson himself. I question his intelligence because he just isn’t picking up these fundamentals like he should be, I question his drive and work ethic in practice and in the classroom, I question his ability to comprehend what is being asked of him and I question his stubbornness and willingness to learn things and unlearn other things. In many ways, I can say the same things about Nani, but as poor as he has been at times, he at least has moments that truly thrill and inspire hope and confidence. One can see his vast potential much more easily even if he has regressed this season as well. On the flip side, Anderson has had a few games where he had me on the edge of my seat cheering him on and saying maybe, just maybe he is getting it. But for the most part I sit like many watching him and scratching my head…….and waiting.
You are amongst a growing number of supporters and even aspiring players who have a different value system when it comes to judging players these days. 25 years ago the Claude Makelele’s, Vieira’s, Cambiasso’s, van Bommel’s, Obi Mikels, Mascherano’s and Diarra’s of the world were nothing more than bench players and specialists who a manager would throw in late in a game to hold a lead. But Italy’s success over the past twenty years and their invention of the DMF who sits behind other midfielders and just in front of his back four has become a staple in the game today and a part of the game I absolutely despise. In fact, its getting worse. Now some teams use two of them. These players for me are talentless lugs who have one ability and one ability only. They are Energizer Bunnies who are good at marking and fouling attacking players. Today we look at them as the most valuable asset on a team but they are most responsible for making the game far uglier and vicious than it ever was and far too technical. They work hard and make life miserable for attacking teams and players and they are loved by their team’s supporters for being nothing more than a blue collar negative cancer on the beautiful game. But they possess all the qualities that many supporters like you seem to love. Anderson is yet to become a great marker or tackler but he has their tenacity and above all, he has their limited skill level and contribution. Yet you love him. People love the player that works hard and has a drive and determination in his game that defines his effort. I prefer skill, composure, vision, finishing skill, finesse and the ability to slow the game down when it needs to be slowed down. Anderson has all the potential to one day develop into nothing more than DMF. He doesn’t have those abilities I mentioned above which will turn him into the offensive force that I and many others are looking for. He is limited Eddy, simple as that. Some players cannot improve because they don’t have the skill necessary to do so. Sure he can occasionally thread a long and low through ball but that is it my friend. That is the extent of his skill other than he is good at dribbling himself into a corner or dead end and shielding the ball. Those are the extend of his positives.
I’m not trying to convince you that I am right nor am I trying to turn you against your favorite player even though I know that’s impossible. I am just stating the facts as I see them and how I feel about a player who has been far to slow to improve and who from my perspective isn’t going to get that much better that I need to show more patience for. The biggest problem may actually be he doesn’t suit the English game but I don’t buy that because his chicken with his head cut off style is more English than you know. Just ask Rooney. So just consider me unconvinced and disenchanted. I for one have had enough of the lad and would prefer for him to be sold to a Spanish side where he may have a better chance of succeeding while learning from people of his own culture and language. And he can take Craig’s little buddy Nani with him. I love Nani but he has been unfairly used and badly criticized despite not being given a fair enough shot to rectify his weaknesses and show his quality. He has shown some stunning moments of skill and for me is a player with great potential but who needs a fresh start with a team that will look to him the way we look to Ronaldo as the go to guy.
So I hope you don’t carry any bitterness or animosity towards me for my confession here today. Try as I did, I just could not wrap my head around liking this Anderson kid. Just too many holes in his game and the inability to improve in a manner that promotes hope and encouragement. For your sake and for the sake of Man Utd I hope that the lad can prove me wrong some day soon, but I wouldn’t bank on it.
March 17th, 2009 at 19:12
@Karl: I agree with you big time mate. They are massive concerns but again the one thing to bank on and take with you is that all the others have even more problems. I honestly feel it’s impossible to not have negatives. They go with the trade. It’s how you deal with them and how you play despite them that matters. And lets face it, we have been pretty damned successful despite those problems. But I too worry about the whole house of cards collapsing upon itself when Fergie retires.
March 17th, 2009 at 19:14
@donibrasco: No true mate. In the past Rooney has receive plenty of grief on this blog. The difference is that when he plays bad it frustrates us so much more than Anderson because we have seen Rooney when he has been world class brilliant. And lets face it, he scores goals so the thought of him being completely incapable of something is far from our minds. Consistency is his problem. Anderson can’t even spell the word yet alone understand it.
March 17th, 2009 at 19:17
@Natzca: It’s not just a loss we are dealing with. If it was just a loss I would agree with you that the team can put it behind them and move on. This was a hammering and an embarrassment. Much more difficult for a team to pick itself off of the mat and go into the next game with the cocky attitude and chip on it’s shoulder it had prior to the thumping.
March 17th, 2009 at 19:20
@Traverse: But I have watched most of those player when they were late teens just breaking in. I remember Ballack when he started for Kaiserslautern for crying out loud. Most people aren’t even aware he played there under Otto Rehhagel. Again, like others you make the mistake to think I am judging those players at their current age against Anderson. Give me a little more credit for intelligence mate.
They are all players I have watched develop into stars over years and who I believed would reach the top right from the beginning because it was obvious.
March 17th, 2009 at 19:38
@magno:
“
From the lessons you learned I have the following to say in bold type;
1. “The team’s tired but far from cracking up”
So giving up four goals of extreme folly doesn’t mean we are cracking up? When Our two best defenders look like they couldn’t cut it playing for Doncaster Rovers and our keeper makes Roy Carroll look like Schmeichel that’s not grounds for our defense cracking up?
2. “Inter are worse than I thought”
No disagreement there. We played like total shitbags and beat them 2-0
3. “Liverpool, although still boring as ever, are getting closer to winning the league.”
Give me a fucking break. And they call me panicked. That’s totla and complete science fiction or fantasy mate.
4. “If Park has to play, then there’s something wrong in midfield.”
Park had no reason to start that game but he has his uses and it’s funny that we don’t read this kind of criticism when he completely phases out an opponent star from the game. Typical fickleness from a fan. He is shit when we lose or play bad and he is great when we win.
5. “With a nutter like Park in the middle of the pitch (a stronger version mind), the team could play a proper attacking wide man , like Nani.”
How much did Craig MC pay you to make that comment?
6. “I have total faith in Evans coming in for Vidic”
I have faith in Evans too but he is no Vidic….not yet anyway.
7. “The defence doesn’t come up against that calibre of striker every week, that was a painful, but maybe useful, reminder of what’s to come if they want to go all the way in Europe again.”
Sorry but that’s just bollocks mate. There are plenty of great strikers we go up against and Torres although fantastic is not Brazil’s Ronaldo in his heyday or Gerd Mueller, Johann Cruyff or even Ruud van Nistelrooy in his heyday. He’s not overrated but he isn’t exactly the greatest player on the planet either. Last time I heard, we had the best player on the planet and it is Liverpool who needed to be afraid. Chalk one up for the bad guys this round.
March 17th, 2009 at 20:34
Surprise, surprise, its been going swimmingly well on redrants with us chasing 5 trophies and on a winning streak, one loss(though embarassing) and poof all that is gone and we’re back to the November/ December 2008 redrants we’re all familiar with.
March 17th, 2009 at 22:26
@Rd: Oh well, that’s the way she goes.
March 17th, 2009 at 22:50
Ole, Ole, Ole Ole, HARDCORE, HARDCORE fans.
.
We’re off to Fulham for the day, feel the temperature rising
Arsene Wenger – GENIOUS! His comments to the media totally agree with my thinking, with my posts, he is on my wave length. Remind me what he said now – “Manchester United DOMINATED that game, and the Lpool scoreline was flattering. Manchester made UNCHARACTERISTIC mistakes, unusual for them.” Arsene, next time your in town mi man, call me, the Salford reds will finance your drinks all night down the pub. And never a truer word spoken my friend. I never thought I would come to the day where Arsene and I were in agreement, but he is right that we dominated the game, and the scoreline flattered. That has been my sentiments exactly. Don’t care who disagrees with me now, because the two best managers in PL, Fergie and Arsene agree with me, we were in control of that game, until we lost Nemanjah. You’ll do me lads!
March 17th, 2009 at 22:53
Oh yeah, we don’t agree about our MF though, I still think we need a MF enforcer. A commander
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March 17th, 2009 at 23:01
@Red Ranter: RR, come and stand on the terraces with some of the Man Utd Red Army, it wouldn’t take you long to become ‘Hysterically Mad’ like the rest of us
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March 17th, 2009 at 23:08
@Grognard: Oh Grog, I could never hold a grudge against you!
You know I respect your opinions, even though I may completely disagree. Fair enough, your view is your view. It doesnt inflict me, but it does open my eyes. You are actuallly correct in some of those things(now we are loking through my eyes 
). He hasnt improved so much this last year. He hasnt blown my mind open, he hasnt been as brilliant as I, and others, expected him to be, he just keeps frustraing us and his positioning is woeful at times. There is that inconsistency that you are talking about, but as I said earlier I think that is more because of the squad rotation than the player himself. And the way United rotates these days, that is maybe the most significant problem!
You know I love Andy. But with love comes frustration, rain and utter madness! So I am willing to take that. I will give him time, but I will tall you that if I havent seen any kind of improvement in him until January 2011, I have had it with him me too. That is the time I am willing to give him, and it may seem long but I stil think he is very young for a midfielder. He does have that will to make a goal, turn up the pace in games and run at oppnents that I luv in a player. Even though his passes may go completely wrong sometimes, he can lose a pall because the pace in a game is too slow or he just walks into a dead end, but when he gets it right it looks so beautiful and masterful. And I luv his desire to keep trying! Maybe I am sounding crazy here, but that is my nature.
You say you love that 30 pass movement in goals, attacking with purpose. Well, I have a fairly different view of things. Ive been raised, and my footballing generation is getting raised, by a thing called speed. Play fast, play presice and play direct. Patience is something I dont enjoy so much, I want things done quickly and right. To score a goal on the counter, only on 4 passes, is very nice to me. Playing 30 passes before you score is boring. You cant blame me for having that mentality, its just how I am raised. Of cource, when you lead and think you have time to do such things, you should. And you should never panic! Be cool, but keep the pace of the game at a high tempo. So when Andy plays those quick passes through a defense, so we score in maybe just 4 passes from goalis to goal is what I enjoy.
March 17th, 2009 at 23:16
@Grognard: @Grognard: One TRULY dire game doesn’t expose ‘the best defence in the PL for most of the season’, as inept and foolish. Well not in my opinion anyway Bro
. I am chalking this down to a blip. Like Wenger correctly says, these kind of defensive errors are VERY uncharacteristic of United’s defence. I am in agreement with that sentiment. Up and ON Grog I say 
.
March 17th, 2009 at 23:25
@RedDevilEddy: Awww Eddy, there it is again, I feel your Anderson love mate. You keep believing
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March 17th, 2009 at 23:27
@Redrich: Now you know how L’fool supporters have felt the last 10 years, as Man Utd have done the double over them. Sad isn’t it?
March 17th, 2009 at 23:29
ps Red Rich, every dog has its day Bro, and that was L’fools day
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March 17th, 2009 at 23:41
@WhiteY: I wouldn’t love to see Nani playing at Fulham, so that he can’t be blamed if we have a bad time there. Let the players that got us into this, get us out of it.
March 17th, 2009 at 23:46
@Craig Mc: I do like all United fans do, all players do, and the manager does. BELIEVE, as it was written in the Stretford End…
March 17th, 2009 at 23:47
@Fred The Red: I agree Fred mate. And its not just us that KNOW the scoreline flattered L’fool, Fergie and Wenger do too. I like that
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March 17th, 2009 at 23:49
@Stephen: Stephen mi man, get that City double salt out of our wounds mate. Do not rub it in
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March 17th, 2009 at 23:59
I really do question the mental state of the Fat Waiter. Now known as the Godfather! He has gone public with his DECLARATION of WAR. Right he said post match, we have won the game, now let us WIN THE WAR. WHAT FRIGGIN WAR? This is football, a game. To Rafa he really is AT WAR with Fergie, and has been for some time, and has hated that he couldn’t get the better of him, and NOW like Fergie says it has become too personal. So Rafa has stated that L’fool have a war to win against Man Utd. And they say Fergie is cracking up – hahahahahahaha – yeah right!
March 18th, 2009 at 0:10
@Craig Mc: Im with you on this one mate, that game was ours to lose until Vidic made the mistake for the Torres goal and it is my firm conviction that if ten matches against Liverpool started in the same way that this one did until just before they equalised, then we would go on and win 8 of them.
If Liverpool had of went in at half time still trailing thier heads would have dropped a little and they would have had to step out and chase the game, leaving themselves vulnerable.
As I said in post 83, the dynamics of the game completely shifted from the moment they equalised and after the second goal went in the situation was tailer made for a Rafa Benitez style team, what is most frustrating is that it was us that cause the problem, and thats not sour grapes or blind loyalty as some people who share my opinion have been accused of, its my honest, thoughtful and considered opinion that Liverpool did not play that well on saturday and that the result was freakish and certainly not down to the Tactical Ingenuity of Rafa.
Having said that, the psychological disintegration of some of our players on saturday in the second half was alarming and confirned some niggling suspicions I have harboured about one or two of them concerning thier bottle in games that arent going according to plan.
March 18th, 2009 at 0:52
@Fred The Red: Psychological disintigration??? Not quite sure what you mean Fred. I just think the wrong MF pairing was chosen for us on the day. I’ll tell you this, if Red Nev had been on that pitch, knowing what it means to United fans to win this one, some of our players would have got a right bollocking from him. We haven;t really got anybody in MF since Keane, who will tear the heads off players giving the ball away, or playing fancy Dan stuff, with flicks, one stepover too many etc. All in all, I think like you, that we were commanding the game, and L’fool didn’t win because of their superior play, but because of our comical defensive errors ON THE DAY. The performances of Evra since he returned though are causing me some alarm
.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:18
@Craig Mc: When Torres and Gerrard starrted to run at Vidic he completely lost his composure, he has many strong points to his game but when he gets turned by players with pace who try to run at him he doesnt like it and I can remember a few occasions this season were he has been exposed like this and and was fotunate not to have been penalised.
Michael carrick has not convinced me that he can step up to the plate when the heat is really on and there were times against Liverpool when he could have done more to prevent thier players advancing at our back four. I know he is not in the team as a midfield general, but on one or two occasions I thought he was jogging back when he should have been sprinting and also whenever he starts poorly in a game he seems to go into his shell and struggles to come back out.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:28
@Fred The Red: Vida hasn’t got a lot of pace Fred, that is the part of his game where he lacks. Also another weak area of Vida’s is that when under pressure from continuous traffic from opposing players coming at him, he panicks into either booting the ball into touch, or hoofing it upfield. Johny Evans on the otherhand is calmer, and is a footballing defender if you know what I mean. However Vida has played out of his skin for most of the season for us. I feel in the big games, our MF looks lightwieght, and doesn’t marshall MF, and so the defense is pressured with little help from a calm and commanding MF – little support mate. Our strikers too really struggle when tightly marked. Still all in all, so far we have kept ourselves in good position. We have to win the next three games though, they are VITAL. We MUST do so, to give L’fool and Chelski NO hope in their thinking they can catch us.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:34
@Craig Mc: I agree with evertthing you just wrote and its in games like these when an Owen Hargreaves type could have made a big difference
March 18th, 2009 at 1:37
@RedDevilEddy: See tht’s where we differ greatly. I love speed too but I do not like it all the time because finding precision and and finesse skills when going full speed is an almost impossible thing to find in a player. This is why Pele and Maradona are #1 and 2 all time. They could do incredible things at full speed. Other great players need to slow things in order to take a great shot, make a pin point pass, or dig down and come up up with a moment of vision and finesse like a chip lob pass into a strikers feet. This is why I love a player like Riquleme so much. He has the skill set of a true magician and artist but he lacks the speed and often the determination of an Anderson. But for me he has proven why all those other qualities are far more greater and more vital than speed. Because he has had great success without having to use pace and speed. Where he has failed in his career is in his lack of determination.
I think of two of my all time favorites Franz Beckenbauer and Johann Cruyff. Both capable of running fast but also two players that rarelty ever gassed it to a ball or with the ball. Controlled, almost static at times, they let the ball do the traveling for them. What they had was a delicious sense of timing and vision coupled with golden feet that would allow them to make all kinds of passes to teammates. And when they shot the ball, their shots were lasers designed to kill on contact, they were controlled well placed shots that keepers had no chance on.
So many midfield players of the past with that quality to offer up as examples of what I am talking about. Zidane, Platini, Rivelino, Charlton, Hoddle, Gasgoigne, Netzer, Hoeness, Breitner, Neeskens, Ardiles, Riquelme, Maradona, Baggio and Hagi. All capable of moments of brilliance and vision. Imagination with a great touch and rarely at full speed. Always under control. Lets not forget Scholes in that.
Now as for speed, pace and drive, well that’s what wide wingers and wide midfielders are for. Which brings me to a major point. Although I do not like to blame Ferguson for what has happened to Anderson, it is important to note that Andy was an up and coming star LW/LMF back in 2005 when he was one of the great young players of the year. So why is he being turned into Scholes and Roy Keane on this team? I hate to say it, but maybe Fergie is most to blame for Anderson and even Nani. Play them at their position for Christs sake. If Anderson is a winger, why the Hell are we playing him a position that does not take advantage of his best tools? His speed, drive, dribbling ability are what we need on the LW. I honestly don’t know if he can cross a ball because he gets very few chances in a game. His corners are pretty shitty but still, playing him away from his natural position seems like a selfish and very narrow minded thing for Fergie to do. And it’s not the first time he has done that with players. All the more reason for Anderson to move on to a team where he has a chance of regaining the form and the confidence he had before United got a hold of him.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:41
@Craig Mc: “Very uncharacteristic” is why I am concerneed. Because it didn’t happen once in the game, it happened at least a half dozen times and we got burned 4 times. As for the Voyeur, he has been kissing Fergie’s ass a lot of late and it’s starting to disturb me. It’s clear his dislike for Liverpool and Chelsea as well as Mourinho is much greater than his long and bitter rivalry with SAF. So I would take anything he says with a grain of salt. He is obviously trying to piss off Benitez with his comments.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:43
@Craig Mc: Yes but that dog had to wait 73 years for it’s day to look so good and 17 years for it to happen at OT in the Prem.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:44
@Craig Mc: Whatever mind games you guys need to play on yourselves to numb away the reality and the pain is OK by me.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:45
@Craig Mc: He is known as the Goateefather because of that goat hair on his fat festering pock marked mug.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:47
@Grognard: You would, I wouldn’t. But then we have not agreed on a lot of things since the Lfool game. That’s life, and I see the game in agreement with Fergie and Wenger. Mind games MY ARSE.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:49
@Fred The Red: Yeah Fred, I love Owen Hargreaves
. I would like another really commanding MF enforcer to compliment Hargo though Fred 
.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:53
@Craig Mc: He wants war, perhaps it’s time for Fergie declare war right back and get the boys ready to go to the mattresses on this. If he wants war, he will lose. So he won the battle, so what, he will lose the war and he will then go into his bunker with his ugly dog and uglier wife and shoot himself and then Gerrard and Torres will take his limp carcass out of the Anfield bunker where they will be thrown in a pit near the Kop end, gas poured over them and then a lit on fire.
A fitting end to an evil fat and ugly tyrant who lisped his way into power and tried to systematically and technically destroy the game of football with his negative mind and manner. And lets not forget about his latent homosexual tendencies towards little Lucas Leva, Fabio Aurelio. the masculine Mascherano and of course his favorite little boy toy, the shemale Fernado Torres. Now that’s a FACT. Beliebo me.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:54
@Fred The Red: And were losing it and we end up losing it big so yes, the game was ours to lose and we did it in style.
March 18th, 2009 at 1:59
@Grognard: Blimey Grog, that’s a bit lurid. Sounds horrible mate. I think all this real HATRED towards Fergie by Benitez is wolfish, and a little disconcerting. I mean lets win the WAR? When we start talking about football games as WARS, there is definately a serious question as to Rafa’s mental state.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:02
@Craig Mc: Midfield paring had nothing to do with the serious gaffs pulled off by Vidic and the lack of support by Rio. Midfield gaffs never caused Evra to stick a blind foot out and trip Gerrard and midfield gaffs weren’t to blame for a long ball down the middle that John O’Shea got caught taking pictures of as Dossena chipped over a useless and fully unconscious EVDS. Also, our midfield was not to blame for the free kick that slowly found it’s way int the goal while EVDS was sitting taking a crap and looking for toilet paper. And was our midfield to blame for the time Gerrard should have made it 5-1 but blew his shot or the time a ball was centered poorly to a wide open player in the box who would have tapped it in if had been directed properly. None of these plays had anything to do with our inept and clueless midfield. Because as bad as they were and as void of ideas as they were, they were far from the abysmal and folly filled clown act that made up our back four and goalkeeper. A tremedous display by our midfield may have allowed us to score a goal or two more but it would not have prevented the calamity of errors that led to all Liverpool’s goals on Saturday. I just find it shocking the way some of you direct your blame at the wrong parties in all this. It’s the midfield, it’s Anderson, it’s Tevez, it’s Berbatov, it’s Fergie not making changes fast enough, it’s Park etc etc. Do yourself a favor and watch the game again and pick out who is to blame by studying the goals.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:03
Also shit head Gerrard asking FIFA and all football world to show respect for Hillsborough disaster, and let Lfool mourn for their day, and have FIFA change their CL game so that they can do it. Then their fans came to OT with blow up aeroplanes, throwing them at United supporters, and chanting continuously anti munich songs, bastards! So Gerrard needs to talk to his lacking in respect KOP idiot, and crass fans.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:04
@Fred The Red: This is why I blame either fatigue or he was carrying some kind of injury. His hesitation on the first goal was just shocking. Their were three or four things he could have done and instead he allowed himself to get overrun. If he was a talentless moron we could say that was the reason. We know better though don’t we. Those mistakes and that reaction was of a player who is mentally and possibly physically tired and spent.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:05
@Craig Mc: Booting the ball into touch on the first goal would have been just fine.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:11
@Fred The Red: Yes because he would have prevented Vidic from fucking up as well as Evra, Rio, O’Shea and EVDS. Honestly guys, your analysis of the game is seriously wanting. Sure Hargreaves would improve a lot of things but the goals were not mistakes created by the midfield. Our back four just decided to implode in one game. Hopefully it was a one time occurrance but the nature of the implosion leads me to believe that fatigue and possible lingering injuries to players like O’Shea, Rio and Evra have led to their fall from grace. As for Vidic, hopefully it was just a freak of nature. But EVDS I believe has been protected by these guys all season and his flaws have been well hidden until Saturday. Hell if it wasn’t for goalposts and Ibrahimovich’s uselessness, Inter would have beaten us and EVDS too. That’s two games our defense sucked in, not just one. Trust me, Hargreaves couldn’t have prevented anything on Saturday unless he played goal.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:12
@Grognard: Errr we had lost Vidic and and were playing a man short. For most of the game, the defence was put under pressure, because our MF was not in control in MF. In todays press Benitez is stating that they worked on not allowing our MF to be in the game by pressuring them. Also he told all his players to work on VIDIC. Vidic was their target. Anyway, I am tired of this talk now. I want to MOVE on, and be there for my time for the remaining games this season, where Benitez is DEMANDING, yes demanding that all other teams use his tactics of working on Vidic, and pressurising our MF. Fergie needs to realise, as do our players, that Benitez is AT WAR with us, and we should SEE and get our lads and the fans tanked up.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:15
@Craig Mc: Bro, why are you hiding behind the words of two used car salesmen? Those guys would lie to both their mothers if it got them an advantage.
Think for yourself. I know where you stand but I totally and 100% disagree with you mate. In buddies can have a difference of opinion from time to time. Just don’t hold it against me. I need time to recover form this disappointment, 
PEACE.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:15
@Grognard: And thats what Vida was trying to do, or did that escape your intellectual notice? Right I am leaving this thread, because it is boring me. Lpool is behind, we have all the games ahead now, and I will give them my attention. So bye bye this thread
.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:20
@Craig Mc: Benitez is an uneducated little piece of shit of a man who suffers from Napoleon complex. What he needs is his own personal WATERLOO. And hopefully Fergie (aka Lord Fergie Wellington) will arrange it for him. Perhaps that is what we need in the Champions League. I’ve always felt the draw was fixed. I think that the two will meet much like we met the team that was on our heels all of last year, Chelsea. Lets hope we have our day of sweet revenge. He wants war, he wants to talk war, I say we blitzkrieg his Spanish Waiter ass. Show no mercy and take no prisoners……unless Torres wants to change sides.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:20
@Grognard: Look Grog stop talking garbage please, you know all to well that I said those things BEFORE Fergie and Wenger came out with them. Or was that something else that escaped your notice. I was saying this from almost my first post. I don’t need them or YOU to tell me what to think. Just because I don’t agree with you on this game, doesn’t mean I am not thinking for myself. In fact it means I am thinking what I think about this game, and my opinion hasn’t changed from the beginning. I don’t want to argue the toss anymore though Grog. I have my own opinion, and you have yours. Our opinions are not in accord on this issue, and that is ok with me, and should be OK with you.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:21
@Craig Mc: Yes, he should also ask for the same respect for the mess death his horde created at Heysel too.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:22
@Grognard: At last we AGREE on something today
March 18th, 2009 at 2:24
@Grognard: That was just awful Grog, and if I remember correctly, it caused English teams to be banned from Europe.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:24
“For most of the game, the defence was put under pressure, because our MF was not in control in MF.”
So please tell me mate if what you say is true, how on Earth do you as well as Fergie and Wenger explain the fact as you put it that we had them against the rack? Seriously mate, if we were so bad in the midfield, why were you so certain that we would beat them despite being down 2-1 and lacking any midfield play?
Inquiring minds want to know??? 
March 18th, 2009 at 2:28
@Craig Mc: I know you said those things before them Bro but now you are using them to back you up and I just don’t see it mate. No need to get all hot and bothered though. I’m asking serious and valid questions of you mate. Anyway, forget about it. It’s not worth us getting all upset over this. Obviously this game has got all of us fighting in the terraces of the Internet as well. We need to get back to our winning ways and hopefully forget a nightmarish Saturday. Cheers and goodnight.
March 18th, 2009 at 2:31
@Craig Mc: Yes it was awful and to this day Liverpool fans are still remorseless about it. The evidence was clear that they were to blame and not the Juve fans. But they always ignore it and forget about it and always like to bring up Hillsborough as their choir song. They are all pathetic Scouser filth
March 18th, 2009 at 2:57
@Grognard: 1. Cracking up would be over a series of matches, it’s possible, I don’t think it’s happened just yet though…
3. No panicking here, they are getting a little closer, it’s not bothering me any, it will just make Fergie mad and make United stronger. The reason the team is so strong right now is directly linked to Chelsea improving their squad. Like in business you shouldn’t shrug off the opposition saying they are crap, you need to keep improving, especially when you are on top.
4. What the hell is this fickle shit, I’ve never said he was good or shit. It’s not his fault he has to do the dog’s work instead of others.I just hope he never read this this blog to hear what you’ve had to say about him. That’s rich coming from you!
5. I like Nani, and a midfield that can run as well as walk, Park can be useful sometimes too.
6. Well seeing as Evans didn’t play on Saturday he should be free of the cracking up syndrome, let’s hope so…
7. Did I say he was one of the the world’s greatest striker ever? Where did you get that from? And who the hell are these great forwards that United have come up against this year? I’m not bigging up Torres, I’m talking about the rarity (in a big match situation) of excellent strikers testing Vidic. That little bit of extra trickery seemed to take him by surprise.
And please don’t call my opinions bollocks.
March 18th, 2009 at 4:16
@magno: Sorry for the bollocks comment mate, but that is how I felt at the time about what I read. Lets just say I disagree with the comment.
And the fickle comment is directed at you and a lot of others who love to put Park down in a game when he is ineffective but who build him up into something godly when he plays well. If that isn’t fickle, I don’t know what is. And if you think that’s rich coming from me, fine, I never ever said that I am incapable of being fickle. It’s the nature of being a fan and dealing with highs and lows. So if that’s rich, I’ll go on a spending spree.
March 18th, 2009 at 10:04
@Grognard: It’s okay man, just came across as a bit piqued.
And just so people know where I stand on it: my views on Park have been constant from the start. I would never criticise the guy, he should be a sub or played in specific cases. These specific cases are happening far too frequently for my liking though…but are they are definitely necessary due to lack of bite elsewhere.
When called on he always gives his all.