Mar 16
Lessons learned from Inter and Liverpool.
[Note to Liverpool fans stumbling onto this site through Newsnow: You lot are among the best fans ever and you will win the treble this season. Now go away and leave us in peace.]
Saturday was a terrible day. It’s been a while since I’ve felt this bad after a game. Even Chelsea away in the 05/06 season wasn’t quite as bad because, 1. we were playing away from home against a rather good team and, 2. we were a shite team in comparison then anyway, and 3. they weren’t Liverpool.
But rather than going about blasting every player that made it to the pitch it’s a far more constructive exercise to think about areas we could improve upon.
First, a positive, reassuring fact that ought to brighten depressed minds: we are top of the league with a four point cushion that could quite easily become seven if Saturday’s kick on the backside really meant something to the lads.
With that thought let’s move on to things that need to be worked on.
The defence has appeared strangely, for want of a better word, incoherent. For reasons, I can’t possibly explain, certain players have been ball watching far too much. Take, for example, Patrice Evra. I haven’t seen this drastic a slump in form as much as I’ve seen from him recently. [One can only hope that this is a temporary slump, and that he's not playing injured.] He nearly let Stankovic capitalise on his oversight, and made an ill-timed tackle on Saturday, not to mention the number of times he allowed players to surge forward on the left. It could be argued that we had ‘Pool on the rack for most part but we can talk about that later.
Still with the defence, Nemanja Vidic had a game he’d probably want to forget soon [and hopefully his suspension would help him with that] but I am slightly concerned about Rio Ferdinand. He wasn’t bad against Liverpool, but he hasn’t been close to his peerless self of last season yet. Once again, I want to hope this is mainly because he is yet to recover from a recurrent back injury. But it is surely a while since I’ve seen the Rio Ferdinand who, in his peak, would’ve had enough cherries in his pocket to keep El Nino busy.
About our midfield, I’ve heard tons of revisionist bullshit about how Fergie cocked up his selection of personnel in midfield. Well, we could have said something similar about our team selection against Chelsea. We thumped them spectacularly, and Fergie was hailed a tactical genius — something the man himself, along with his peers, says is not his greatest asset. The point I am trying to make here is this: we have come this far — despite losing home and away to Liverpool, we are four points ahead with a game in hand — brushing aside injury troubles, gruelling far-Eastern jaunts, winning Mickey Mouse cups along the way, and to say that all this was accomplished with a poor midfield; that, to me, is utter tosh. So I wouldn’t fault Ferguson’s selection either. We did have Liverpool under the cosh for a good 70 minutes, if my unspectacular powers of time estimation is anything to go by, with good possession. So I can’t fault the midfield. I do have questions of my own, such as why a big-match-player (in the words of SAF himself) like Darren Fletcher didn’t make it to the starting XI, but I would be cheating with my powers of hindsight. I’ll let that slip.
But this brings me to the third part of this belated outpouring that I’m subjecting you to, and it is in our attack. Again, I won’t question the man for picking the forwards that he did. What I would ask is — and I think, at this point in the season, it is safe to ask — is our system working? By a cursory glance at the league table, and a shrug of the shoulder, most would be compelled with a ‘yes, the league table doesn’t lie.‘ Sure, it doesn’t. And so far, yes, it hasn’t lied. And a couple of losses later, it won’t lie then either. But then what am I getting at?
When we bought Berbatov, we decided to sacrifice a player who was able to run at defences but unable to head, for a player who was composed and could head, whilst providing flick ons for our other gifted attackers to capitalise. What happened this season was, we took time for our system to get adjusted to the new arrival and, whilst goals have been forthcoming, they haven’t been quite as prolific, nor has the system been mouth-wateringly fluid. Berbatov’s arrival has improved our ball retention, and we have become a more considered team the way we conduct our build up play, but it also requires an excellent, water-tight defence to make up for the lesser number of goals we’re likely to get from this system. If our defenders cock up spectacularly, then our task would be far more difficult to get back than it was last season.
Berbatov’s arrival also meant we needed other players to come into play — and I am primarily talking of a central midfielder who could come into the box unmarked and score a few. We have midfielders who can pass at the moment, and Fletcher looks most likely to score goals from midfield. This is no fault of Berbatov, of course. Nor is he an unqualified success. He has done well, but we do expect more from the Bulgarian.
The reason I had to bring all this up now that we lost a game at home, is to give it some context. Speaking about this after a 4-1 romp at West Brom, for instance, wouldn’t resonate quite as well as now.
But all this negativity aside, I felt it was good that we got beaten by someone, although I didn’t want it to happen against Liverpool. It’s really hard to take a home defeat thumping against a rival that really wasn’t superior to us on the day. Three defensive gifts that they capitalised on would be the only credits attributable to them. And the red card did it for us finally.
I really think this backlash will wake up players who may have lapsed into smugland. Rio Ferdinand acknowledges it was a ‘rude awakening’ and Sir Bobby Charlton reckons this defeat could only help us. He still mentions the quintuple though, which I really don’t have much time for — unless of course we win that.
[Note to Liverpool fans who've actually read till the end of this piece: Get a life. Or better, get a tattoo]
Till then, I’ll look forward to our side winning, what they call in football, the next game.
Related items from Red Rants:
- Charlie Adam to Liverpool
- Manchester United and the Champions’ League
- Mourinho’s Inter, Liga de Quito and proof that Berbatov can be happy
- Man Utd v Inter: Preview
- On Sneijder, Balotelli, Ozil et al…
Tags: Manchester United News
Opti (541)
Stephen (479)
RedDevilEddy (459)
Craig Mc (345)
Moscow is my heaven (272)
@Liam: It’s not about position or losing a game. It’s losing a game to our most bitter rivals in a manner that is unbecoming to the team’s pride and history. We got thrashed at home to the Scouse Filth. That can only mean trouble for the team because I cannot imagine them coming out last Saturday flat as a pancake and with no desire or focus. And yet, that is exactly what happened. I will say it again for the umpteenth time FATIGUE. That is why I am worried. It’s one thing if the body is tired but when the mind shuts off, that’s time to panic. For their minds to shut off against a team like Liverpool is almost unforgivable. So forgive me if I am concerned. This not a regular occurrence and it may well be just freak occurrence, but to lose like that just doesn’t sit well with me.
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@Grognard: You say we might beat Fulham ugly, but then, we haven’t exactly been blowing teams away this season have we? If we eke out another 1-0, it just represents a return to type this season. We’ve had strings of 1-0s since December. So an ugly 1-0 win does not say whether we’re in a slump or not.
And regarding telling us to accept that the Liverpool win was a comprehensive thrashing, I can’t speak for the others so I will speak for myself when I beg to disagree. If your argument is that I am blinkered enough to not face facts, well it’s not strong enough because I have criticized the side when they’ve played poorly and got thoroughly spanked. You want to know when I’ve held up my hand at some recent spankings? Well here: Middlesborough away in 2005, Chelsea at the Bridge 2006, Milan in 2007. These were comprehensive beatings you can’t have an answer to.
But Liverpool on Saturday? Bleh! I gave Liverpool credit when we lost to them at Anfield — here’s my report of that game. So I have a history of being fairly logical about the results and giving credit to the opponent when it’s due. It’s the way I see it, and while I see no problem with the way you perceive Saturday’s result, I’m surprised you would presume people are screaming sour grapes just because it was Liverpool — disregarding a good number of people who may have actually arrived at that conclusion after a considered analysis.
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@Grognard: I’m not sitting well either!! Just can’t get comfortable about that loss. It’ not that we lost to the filth, that they did the double over us these season, or the incredible score line, but that we played so poorly right across the pitch. As you say, if we can’t get up for Liverpool at home, whats it gonna take to light the fire??
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@Grognard: Dude, now I think you are pulling it too far. I know you might be frustrated about the loss against Liverpool, but talking about Anderson as he is not wOrthy of being a footballer just sounds stupid and immature. You should control your emotions better. Yeah, this is coming from the guy worshiping Anderson. But only two months ago you said he had potensially everything needed in a midfielder, except for goals. Now you are practically saying Rafa Benitez would be a better midfield player. Maybe I am exagerating, but I cant help but feel your “Anderson outburst” is just a reaction to the horrible loss, and his performance. He wasnt the only one horrible that day, I think Vida and Evra were much worse.
Just think about reconsidering your feeling about Anderson. He is very young, and central midfield player doesnt usually set the world alight in an early age. He is not English, he is probably suffering from the so called “second season syndrom”, he has been injured a lot, has just came back from injury, had a lot to live up to after his fantastic last season, and the team Fergie is playing just isnt right for him. Why is it that it always seems like Anderson is playing well when Tevez and Roonaey plays, and not Tevez? I think Fergie knows what this kid has in him, and if he learns how to use it right he will become a powerful weapon for us. With Welbeck, Campbell, Fabio and Rafael, and also possibly Nani, as the United players of the future, the speed this possess will fit well with Anderson. I think the system United plays with Berbatov isnt right for him, because it is frankly boring and ruining the attractive United. Anderson seems to be the only one wanting to turn up the speed in those games, but with Fletch, Oshea, Park and Berba being as static as they are, its not weird his through ball goes to waste. If this was United two years ago, he would be perfect. If this is United two years from now, as I believe it will be, he will be perfect. But right now, he just doesnt fit… And you cant blame him for that.
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@RedDevilEddy: I think I am partly with Grog on Anderson. Of course, I’m sure he was exaggerating when he said Anderson’s not worthy to be a footballer, but he certainly has regressed this season, injury or not. There are so many glaring technical frailties in him that it’s hard to ignore the obvious downward spiral he seems to be headed at times.
And you don’t have to call him stupid and immature for just not agreeing with your assessment of Anderson.
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@Red Ranter: Im sure this has said before, but the regression of players such as Nani and Anderson have regressed, or at least not improved because the man who was responsible for bringing them to the club is no longer there. for about the millionth time i cry, bring back Carlos Quieros! keep phelan by all means, but only as a coach. CQ was the best Assistant manager we had… and as soon as he’s finished living out his dream of coaching his club (fair play to him… but looks like he’s out of his depth there) i hope Fergie begs him to return. If we’re going to have such a large contingent of portugese speaking players, then it makes sence to have an excellent Portugese speaking coach. This only strengthens the arguement to bring in Mourinho, but i personally don’t want him. But brining back CQ would almost certaintly see a direct improvement in the development and performance of Nani and Anderson. a final note, imagine how good the Da Silva twins would be with CQ around? they would be unstoppable!
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@RedDevilEddy: I think Park has some deficiencies but I’m not sure you could categorize him as static along with Fletcher, O’Shea and Berbatov!!!
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@Will: I disagree, with one year under their belts with CQ they should have been broken in to way things are done at OT. Do we really have to have a full-time babysitter for every foreign player we sign??
And your point on Rafael and Fabio should show you that non-English speaking players can thrive at OT without that said need!!
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@Red Ranter: Look RR, the score was 4-1 Liverpool. The worst home loss United has suffered in the EPL in 17 years and the worst loss to Liverpool at home in 73 years. You call it what you want and let me spew my venom because as far as I’m concerned and as far as all the non United fans and media are concerned, that was a royal butt kicking. So hide behind your words all you want. I’m calling it the way I saw it and that’s that. At the end of the game the team does not win based on style points. It’s the scoreboard. United 1 Liverpool 4. As far as others are concerned, I am seeing things quite clearly thanks. Screaming sour grapes isn’t insulting them.
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@Redrich: For me it is losing twice to Liverpool, loosing 4-1 at home to Liverpool, Losing to a bitter rival that is filth and looking so bad in the process. Have given up four goals like that in an entire season yet alone in one game at home? They weren’t just goals against, they were goals the exposed our defense as inept and foolish. Vidic and Rio were Laurel and Hardy out there and O’Shea and Evra were members of the Keystone Cops. EVDS seemed very Dutch as one of the dykes broke and everything poured into his goal. It was a season’s full of errors all in one game. And for those who cannot see that and feel concerned suffer from blind faith and denial and RR can gripe to me all he wants. Unlike others I am very capable of removing myself from the die hard blind loyalists and pointing fingers at guilty parties. I don’t live in Manchester and I answer to nobody. We stunk and I hope a nice bath will solve the problem. I just hope the stink on Saturday was not the beginning of rigor mortis. Our back four has been breached and nobody is safe. Where is Jack Bauer when we need him?
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@Grognard:
I completely understand what you’re trying to say and don’t even expect you to change your opinion of the game, but given you’ve shown little effort to see my point of view, and made sweeping generalisations of people based on a difference of opinion, I’ll pass.
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@RedDevilEddy: First of all it is you who is drastically exagerrating things. In my condemnation of the player I have mentioned aspects of his game that I like. But I cannot turn a blind eye any longer to his massive and obvious inadequacies. Read other people who aren’t United fans feelings on Anderson not only for this game but overall. He frankly sucks in the eyes of more neutral fans. As fans of a team we are quite fickle at times and it is normal for all of us, me included to jump on and off the band wagon when players do good and bad.
There have been times when I have watched him play and said Hmm….maybe, just maybe. But then he will suck for four games in a row and any credit and faith he may have gained from me is lost. Frankly as far as I am concerned, he’s not good enough. There, I have said it Eddy, Anderson is not good enough. Not for United and to start in the center of our midfield. I’ve had enough, and I cannot take the teasing anymore. One good game and four bad ones is a cycle I’d like to get rid of. Sell him to Spain where he belongs and where his game can grow and mature. And as far as calling me immature mate, I ‘ll let that slide. Coming from a 16 year old, I’ll take a pass on a comeback there because I do like you and respect you. But you should know , I feel mighty offended by that. When I take the time to write with great thought and passion on this site, I take exception to be called immature or childish or above all, stupid. You know very well that I am far from being stupid, so that coming from you of all people is shocking and hurtful.
Every so often something will piss me off or get me in a mood to write negative stuff. This week I am justified by a truly abysmal performance by my beloved United. I was beyond gutted on Saturday, I was embarrassed and felt sick at what I had witnessed. So I had to write about it and share my honest and sincere comments with my friends on Red Rants. I knew some of what I had to say wasn’t going to go over well but to have some criticize the fact I was telling the truth is one thing, but to be also called an immature idiot because I have the bollocks to say a player who plainly sucks doesn’t cut it, is just a little too much for me to stomach. So I think I’ll take a rest and stop writing because it’s clear that to some, the truth hurts.
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@Red Ranter: I do see your point mate but I’m just so sorry, I saw a different game from you. Perhaps we just look at the game differently. I kind of laugh how some people said we were running the show and had them on the rack and then I see Beachryan’s pretty accurate game review and I see ratings of 3 and 4 for a lot of players. Doesn’t seem like a game where we had them on the rack. Unlike Craig, I never believed for a second that we would tie the game or win it when we were down 2-1 around the 60th minute. Nothing they were doing gave me any encouragement whatsoever that they were going to salvage a point out of the game. And when Fergie finally makes substitutions, it seemed so forced and like and act of desperation. I am having such a hard time handling this loss because my eyes and mind saw a game where we were thoroughly smacked around the pitch for 90 minutes and then given two knockout blows at the end just to rub it in.
As for sweeping generalizations, go to all the media sites. It seems my sweeping generalizations are being mimicked by 90% of the media out there.
And yes we may not like the British media for their opinions but a game review is a game review and that many people who are neutral can’t be wrong. Remember, many of them hate Liverpool even more than us. Listening to Bobby McMahon sum it up on Fox Soccer Report this evening says it all. He called it as I saw it. So are we all wrong or am I generalizing again? In this debate I seem to have support from everyone who isn’t a United fan.
Many of the United fans reminded me of the Bush Administration. They see Hell freezing over and everything they do falling apart around them but refuse to admit they have had anything to do with it. It’s time for everyone to open their eyes and sit on their allegiance and loyalty a bit and call the game for what it was. And that will be the last I say on the matter because it truly is too painful for me to take. I am not trying to make enemies here, just give my views. One thing I do not suffer from is selective blindness.
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@Red Ranter: I’ve been brooding over your opening rant (or should I say moderation) all day and in many ways I have to disagree.
Your tone suggests that we should all make this game a total epiphany, a one-off, or shall we say, a forgivable experience.
As a moderator you are doing a fine job!! As a ranter you are putting most ideas to bed!
Love the idea that you could use your influence to pacify those who are in PTSD, it’s touching, but for me it’s not believable!! After that awful performance, you chose to point out that we are still ahead by a whopping 4 points. Almost like saying we jumped off the building, but it’s a very tall building and it’s a long way down!
To be honest with you, I just don’t think you’re being honest with yourself! If ever United needed a good slagging was now!! Who better to do it? you, the Red RANTER, not the Red COUNSELOR!!!
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@Redrich:
It’s funny that my saying we are four points ahead is dominating your judgement of my otherwise negative article. I have been far more negative than some of the other bloggers, like Scott for example.
There has been a bit of both if you read my piece again. I criticised Evra and Vidic. And expressed concerns over Ferdinand. If you want me to go hysterical, sorry, I can’t. If I come across as being dishonest, I’m sorry you think of it that way. I agreed with Fergie’s assessment — that we were poor against Inter yet we got away with it. In fact, I couldn’t get a match report out for that game, otherwise it would have been fairly negative despite the victory.
Yes, we are ahead by a whopping four points with the chance that it could become seven if we win our game in hand. Yes too many ifs and buts in that argument there, but jump on my back if we are to squander it from here. I’ll eat my hat and shoe then*.
I am neither going over the top with gushing praise nor am I hysterically mad. I found areas that were worrying to me and pointed it out in the article.
I am still quite confident of winning the league. But I will say I am not quite so confident of the Champions’ League and the FA Cup. There are two teams in those competitions that I fear facing. Hiddink’s Chelsea and Barcelona. I still don’t fear Liverpool.
* hat and shoe are made out of chocolate for me.
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I really had to force myself to not comment earlier…for obvious reasons.
The loss on Saturday is very, very hard to swallow. It’s Tuesday now and it still hurts. This is not even mentioning taunting from Pool fans.
My take on Saturday:
1. Liverpool were the better team on the day (this is a real painful one to utter).
2. No one person was to blame for Saturday’s performance. Collectively we sucked.
3. I feel Fergie got his tactics right. We just sucked at it.
4. Saturday showed how your defence can lose you games. Our defence totally sucked.
5. Saturday showed the after-effects of messing around in midfield too much. No cohesion.
6. When Liverpool went 2-1 up, I knew it was over (though admittedly I was not prepared for the humiliation of 4-1), because our team cannot seem to score lately. The chemistry between our forwards is completely messed up. Has been almost all season.
7. Pity it was Pool (and at home), but I am glad we got humiliated at this stage of the season. We needed a wake-up call. Maybe now Fergie will look at the team and our teamplay with more intent.
8. Not to make excuses, but I think the many ‘important’ games we played in such a short space of time really showed us up on Saturday. The guys seemed tired.
9. What pissed me off most about the game was the way everybody stopped playing after Vida got sent off. What the fuck! We paid for that 15 minutes. Who gave the team the right to just stop trying? THAT I feel is unacceptable.
10. I am curious to know what will happen to Steven Gerrard for the badge-kissing. Our captain got suspended for the exact same thing at Anfield. How come no-one mentioned his badge-kissing.
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ANDERSON IS A GOOD FOOTBALLER AND ONE OF THE GREATEST PROSPECTS IN WORLD FOOTBALL. He had an off-day on Saturday unfortunately, but at least he is still better than Fletcher. People criticise him for not scoring goals (and rightly so), but consider this, our forwards who get paid to score goals don’t even score goals in this team. Why is he now so bad?
I think the problem with Anderson is mentorship. I don’t think Fergie has the time or will-power to mentor him. He need someone like CQ. God I hope the Portugese FA hires Scolari back.
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3 Positives to take after Saturdays events:
1. We WILL bounch back big – time because of the humiliation.
2. We WILL win the league – because of our points gap.
3. Liverpool WILL cock up their next game or two – because of over-confidence, And they usually do.
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@Grognard: You comment:
“I’ve had enough, and I cannot take the teasing anymore. One good game and four bad ones is a cycle I’d like to get rid of.”
This seems to be a trend with quite a few of our players this season:
Ronaldo, Berbatov, Tevez, Scholes, Giggs, Nani, Wellbeck (forgiven for his immaturity), Fletcher, etc. I don’t think it’s the player’s fault. I think there is more to it and it needs to get addressed. I don’t feel he is a bad player at all. Someone need to establish:
1. Why has Anderson’s performance have stagnated this season – we paid a shit amount of money for him to develop
2. Why has Nani’s performance gone backward – we also invested heavily in him
3. How can we stabilise Ronaldo – he is very important to us, and does not seem to get in form (we’re almost at the end of the season).
4. Why has Rooney not reached the heights that were expected of him with the qualities he obviously still has
5. What prompted the events that plumeted Tevez’ self-confidence (was Fergie not happy with his performance of last season or did he not foresee the impact that the addition of another striker would have. Why did he not opt for a proven scorer?)
6. Why do our players get injured so often – it’s been happening for a few seasons now
7. Why is a great team – that had a lot of spending money – so heavily reliant on ‘over-thirties’ in such a fast paced league.
8. Why can United not seem to develop youngsters anymore?
9. Why can’t we depend on our forwards to score anymore?
I think we have much deeper issues at the club which affects players like Anderson’s performance on the pitch.
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@Karl: OK I see where you are coming from and I do agree over many of the concerns but allow me to ask one question. If we are in such sad shape and are weighed down with so many problems, how come we are the number one team in the world and defending champions of everything? I guess that means that to balance your 9 criticisms, there should be at least 9 positives that have allowed us to overcome all those problems and win the league two years in a row, the League Cup, the Champions League, The World Club Cup and we are in great position for a historic quintuple.
My point is that you are forgetting the troubles, trials and tribulations that other clubs are going through as well. No club is immune to this and all the other clubs have more disappointments and concerns than we do. How do I know this? Because we are in first and head for a quintuple while all the others are staring a big goose egg in the eye. Sure we have problems, but compared to the rest, we are living in Utopia. That doesn’t mean that we don’t have a right or a need to not complain or bring up the questions you pose. Valid ones indeed.
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@Red Ranter: I apoligise for calling him immature and stupid. But I didnt mean his feeling for Anderson were that, its just his handling of the result to Liverpool. Just two months ago he said Anderson had the potensial to become a great player, he had every asset needed except for goalscoring, that he was a splayer he wanted to see on the pitch when we go out to attack. Plus, saying that a player that won the “Biggest Young Talent” award over the likes of Pato, Aguero and Walcott isnt good enough to be a footballer, is just staggering. This is not my bias talking, because I have myself been irritated by Anderson this season. But I dont think it is down to him. I think its down to the lack of speed in the team. When he plays with Tevez and Rooney, he suddenly looks better than Kaka!!! But when he plays with Berba and Park, he looks like fat Ronaldo a year ago. I think he is improving his game, but he doesnt fit with the team play Fergie is having right now. I dont want him to be sold, because in a few years time when Welbeck, Rooney, Campbell, Rafael and Fabio are first team regulars, he will be the engine room.
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@Grognard: Well, first of all, I will apologise for calling you immature. And I didnt mean calling you an idiot, that might have gone completely wrong out! I just thought your critisism of Andy was waaaaay too harsh. So please, forgive me for that. You know I respect you, your opinions(well, most of the time
) and your inteligence in wrinting. I luv reading your thoughts! But when you talked about Andy that way, well, I just felt like you had never seen him play before. 
Now, look at the list of names you categorised in the “vision” category: Riquelme, Xavi, Gerrard, Diego, Van der Vaart, Fabregas, Ballack, Ribery. Except for Fabregas, all of them are over 24(Diego will be 25 later this year). Look back in time, to when Fabregas was a snotty little wanker in the Arse team. Van der Vaart started off as a striker in Ajax, Gerrard got like 1 assist each season. I can remember Pool fans going mental everytime he took a shot because 5 out of 6 times it would hammer into row Z. You are comparing 27-33 year old playmakers to a 21 year old Brasillian kid! Fabregas was hailed as the eternal playmaker for Arsenal a few year earlier, but just two years a go he couldnt score a goal to save his life! He wasted passes, but he has one thing to learn from that Andy doesnt. He had an Henry who was one of the fastest ever in the Prem, one that would go out to the win looking for balls so he could cut inside. Who has Andy got this season? A Ronaldo who pretty much spends the 90 full minutes on the wing? Rooney, who instead of going on runs, goes back to his own half to get the ball? Tevez, a headless chicken whose ball control is fucking terrible? Or Berbatov, the player that never goes on a run? And when he finally does, one of of a million times, he ends up creating a goal from where he could score himself. Please, I think Andy has done fairly well considering the player he is and the players around him. No fucking speed in the final third this season, no wonder his passes goes astray!
Neutral fans say he is shite. A few years ago they also said Ronaldo was shite. They said Evra was shite. Vidic was shite, Hargeaves was shite, Carrick was shite, some of them also think Rafael is shite. And to be honest, who cares what they think? Neutrals may watch one of 19 games, and that may be a bad game. If people watched the United-Liverpool game, they would say Rooney was shite. Ronaldo was shite. “Vidic is the worst defender ever!”, they would say. We United fans know what is bad and what is good in our team. We dont need advice from Liverpool fans, or Arse fans for that matter!
And finally, what is that about no talent?! You are talking about the player that won the “Best Young Talent” in Novemeber over Aguero, Pato and Walcott. Deary me Grog!
Anderson has everything needed in a midfielder for us. He is just young, and he will improve. I dont think he has improved much this season, but I dont think Ronaldo or for that matter Nani or Tevez has. Goals will come from him, he just needs to learn how to strike it cleanly. He has the vision, but sometimes I feel his brilliant passes dont work because either Rooney is running in the wrong direction, Berbatov doesnt move, Ronaldo doesnt make this cut-in runs he did before and Tevez just isnt interested in scoring goals! Sometimes its the team that makes the player, not a player that makes the team. Next time you critisise Andy for something that most of us feel isnt his fault, watch a little closer on the off ball movement. You know how many times Ive screamed at the TV because his passes goes to waste? And no, it isnt the quality of the passes he makes, it the fucking terrible movement by the attackers. He wants us to play fast football, I admire that. Because I feel that is what we need!
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@Grognard: Agreed. In fact, I do believe we have a hellava lot of positives going for us at the club. I did not want to list it, because it had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. What I mean by listing all the negatives is that we could be so much more better. I don’t particularly care about other teams’ problems. I would like us to sort out ours before they escalate. We are in no way in a crisis, but left unattended, we might well be heading towards one in the not-too-distant future. If left unattended, I can foresee the whole scadoodle collapsing the moment SAF retires.
Considering, for a debt-laden club, for how long can we sustain blowing money – like the 53m pounds for Nani, Anderson, Hargreaves if 2 of them flop and the other one is injury prone (has been since before we even signed him)? Lets not even start on our 90m pound strike-force. It is in the club’s best interest to deal with these (like they’ve dealt with Hargreaves by sending him on the 2 ops). We still need to sort out our medics though. We lost a good striker because of them.
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Its sad when fans criticise Anderson in particular.Rooney has had a patchy career for a player once dubbed the next big thing in England.No one seems to say shit when he plays piss poor games
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shit, lets see how we go this week against fulham,
obviously the loss can make us go two ways,
grognard, i know what you meant that teams can go on slumps after a long streak, but some teams can also keep on winning, and we do have the ability to do that,
lets see after fulham
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@Grognard: Every one of those players you mentioned at 5 or more years older than he is. It’ll come.
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The lessons I learnt from these two matches are the following:
1. The team’s tired but far from cracking up
2. Inter are worse than I thought
3. Liverpool, although still boring as ever, are getting closer to winning the league.
4. If Park has to play, then there’s something wrong in midfield.
5. With a nutter like Park in the middle of the pitch (a stronger version mind), the team could play a proper attacking wide man , like Nani.
6. I have total faith in Evans coming in for Vidic
7. The defence doesn’t come up against that calibre of striker every week, that was a painful, but maybe useful, reminder of what’s to come if they want to go all the way in Europe again.
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I now wish we get Pool in the CL.
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@RedDevilEddy: Your apology is accepted mate and appreciated.
As for your comments, yes the players I gave examples of are older than 20 but did you ever think that I have been watching those players develop over the years. I remember watching Riquelme when he was very young and Diego when he was younger than Anderson. Gerrard I remember as a teen as well as Fabregas and they all impressed me then much more than Anderson. In fact Anderson has been a bitter pill for me to swallow since he arrived. The first time I saw him play I liked certain aspects of his game and not others. I never saw what I like to see from an attacking midfielder. He had no grace. He was fast, chaotic at times and everything was done at full speed without a change of pace or a time to think before he acted. You have to remember that I have grown up myself liking a particular brand of football. I love a lot of the European continental style of football. Slower more precise and patient buildup. Ironically, Argentina plays it best these days. Their epic 30 pass goal against Serbia in 2006 is an example of the way I like to see the game played. On that basis I should absolutely be in love with Paul Scholes but there has always been something about his game that rubbed me the wrong way too.
I’ll be honest, Anderson was in my bad books from day one just because of the hair. Sorry but I am not a big fan of dreads. They just annoy me and all my Liberal leanings go in the toilet when I see a bunch of Dreadlock Holiday types walking around. They usually smell of Ganja and have those annoying Rasta Man attitudes. At least the ones I have run into. Having lived next to a few while in Toronto for a few years poisoned me against the attitude and the look. Call me old fashioned, call me out of touch but do not call me racist. It’s not about color or creed, it’s about ugly hair and cultures that don’t turn me on. Anyway, enough about the hair.
The real reasons for my not liking Anderson as much as much as maybe I should is his inability to play the game the way I like or I want him to. I’m not the manager at United but I am a loyal supporter who has his needs and wants and feels he knows what the team needs. Above all, I consider myself an excellent judge of talent. And I will challenge anyone who thinks differently. Unlike many, I knew after the first 30 minutes of watching Ronaldo that he was going to be the world’s best player one day. In fact I remember watching a game in a lounge while taking an upgrade class at a school and making that comment to my friend Chris. Like so many, Chris called him a showboat which is more the term used here in Canada as opposed to show pony. Well, I don’t see him that often anymore but Chris has often admitted to me that I was right and that he has eaten a lot of humble pie since. By the way, he was an Arsenal fan so he can be forgiven for his lack of vision. Over the years I have picked so many when they were between 19 and 21 and sometimes even younger and predicted great things for them or predicted that they would be a bust or overrated.
I remember seeing a teenage Ryan Giggs and actually predicting even greater things than he accomplished. I honestly thought he was going to be the best in the world at the time I saw him. I wasn’t that far off when you think about it.
My point is simple mate, Anderson has lacked many of the qualities that I look for in a player. The last for that position would be his horrendous finishing, but certainly that is the most glaring. But I said fine, Fergie has seen something in him, be patient, get beyond the hair and wait to see if he in fact blossoms into the player he was being touted as. Well he hasn’t. Two years and he has been on a slide heading downwards steadily. I have seen ZERO improvement in his overall game and I have seen ZERO signs of him improving in specific areas of his game where he is hopelessly lacking. I’m sorry but in two years a player has to have improved in areas where he is weak just through practice and repetition in training. Either this boy is as dumb as nails and stupid as a bag of groceries, or he is just uncoordinated enough to not be able to improve on his weaknesses. Enough excuse making mate. It’s been two years and my experience over the years tells me that unless injured, a player of that age makes significant progress in 24 months under the right coaching and leadership. So what, I am going to blame Fergie now? No way. What I question is Anderson himself. I question his intelligence because he just isn’t picking up these fundamentals like he should be, I question his drive and work ethic in practice and in the classroom, I question his ability to comprehend what is being asked of him and I question his stubbornness and willingness to learn things and unlearn other things. In many ways, I can say the same things about Nani, but as poor as he has been at times, he at least has moments that truly thrill and inspire hope and confidence. One can see his vast potential much more easily even if he has regressed this season as well. On the flip side, Anderson has had a few games where he had me on the edge of my seat cheering him on and saying maybe, just maybe he is getting it. But for the most part I sit like many watching him and scratching my head…….and waiting.
You are amongst a growing number of supporters and even aspiring players who have a different value system when it comes to judging players these days. 25 years ago the Claude Makelele’s, Vieira’s, Cambiasso’s, van Bommel’s, Obi Mikels, Mascherano’s and Diarra’s of the world were nothing more than bench players and specialists who a manager would throw in late in a game to hold a lead. But Italy’s success over the past twenty years and their invention of the DMF who sits behind other midfielders and just in front of his back four has become a staple in the game today and a part of the game I absolutely despise. In fact, its getting worse. Now some teams use two of them. These players for me are talentless lugs who have one ability and one ability only. They are Energizer Bunnies who are good at marking and fouling attacking players. Today we look at them as the most valuable asset on a team but they are most responsible for making the game far uglier and vicious than it ever was and far too technical. They work hard and make life miserable for attacking teams and players and they are loved by their team’s supporters for being nothing more than a blue collar negative cancer on the beautiful game. But they possess all the qualities that many supporters like you seem to love. Anderson is yet to become a great marker or tackler but he has their tenacity and above all, he has their limited skill level and contribution. Yet you love him. People love the player that works hard and has a drive and determination in his game that defines his effort. I prefer skill, composure, vision, finishing skill, finesse and the ability to slow the game down when it needs to be slowed down. Anderson has all the potential to one day develop into nothing more than DMF. He doesn’t have those abilities I mentioned above which will turn him into the offensive force that I and many others are looking for. He is limited Eddy, simple as that. Some players cannot improve because they don’t have the skill necessary to do so. Sure he can occasionally thread a long and low through ball but that is it my friend. That is the extent of his skill other than he is good at dribbling himself into a corner or dead end and shielding the ball. Those are the extend of his positives.
I’m not trying to convince you that I am right nor am I trying to turn you against your favorite player even though I know that’s impossible. I am just stating the facts as I see them and how I feel about a player who has been far to slow to improve and who from my perspective isn’t going to get that much better that I need to show more patience for. The biggest problem may actually be he doesn’t suit the English game but I don’t buy that because his chicken with his head cut off style is more English than you know. Just ask Rooney. So just consider me unconvinced and disenchanted. I for one have had enough of the lad and would prefer for him to be sold to a Spanish side where he may have a better chance of succeeding while learning from people of his own culture and language. And he can take Craig’s little buddy Nani with him. I love Nani but he has been unfairly used and badly criticized despite not being given a fair enough shot to rectify his weaknesses and show his quality. He has shown some stunning moments of skill and for me is a player with great potential but who needs a fresh start with a team that will look to him the way we look to Ronaldo as the go to guy.
So I hope you don’t carry any bitterness or animosity towards me for my confession here today. Try as I did, I just could not wrap my head around liking this Anderson kid. Just too many holes in his game and the inability to improve in a manner that promotes hope and encouragement. For your sake and for the sake of Man Utd I hope that the lad can prove me wrong some day soon, but I wouldn’t bank on it.
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@Karl: I agree with you big time mate. They are massive concerns but again the one thing to bank on and take with you is that all the others have even more problems. I honestly feel it’s impossible to not have negatives. They go with the trade. It’s how you deal with them and how you play despite them that matters. And lets face it, we have been pretty damned successful despite those problems. But I too worry about the whole house of cards collapsing upon itself when Fergie retires.
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@donibrasco: No true mate. In the past Rooney has receive plenty of grief on this blog. The difference is that when he plays bad it frustrates us so much more than Anderson because we have seen Rooney when he has been world class brilliant. And lets face it, he scores goals so the thought of him being completely incapable of something is far from our minds. Consistency is his problem. Anderson can’t even spell the word yet alone understand it.
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@Natzca: It’s not just a loss we are dealing with. If it was just a loss I would agree with you that the team can put it behind them and move on. This was a hammering and an embarrassment. Much more difficult for a team to pick itself off of the mat and go into the next game with the cocky attitude and chip on it’s shoulder it had prior to the thumping.
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@Traverse: But I have watched most of those player when they were late teens just breaking in. I remember Ballack when he started for Kaiserslautern for crying out loud. Most people aren’t even aware he played there under Otto Rehhagel. Again, like others you make the mistake to think I am judging those players at their current age against Anderson. Give me a little more credit for intelligence mate.
They are all players I have watched develop into stars over years and who I believed would reach the top right from the beginning because it was obvious.
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@magno:
”
From the lessons you learned I have the following to say in bold type;
1. “The team’s tired but far from cracking up”
So giving up four goals of extreme folly doesn’t mean we are cracking up? When Our two best defenders look like they couldn’t cut it playing for Doncaster Rovers and our keeper makes Roy Carroll look like Schmeichel that’s not grounds for our defense cracking up?
2. “Inter are worse than I thought”
No disagreement there. We played like total shitbags and beat them 2-0
3. “Liverpool, although still boring as ever, are getting closer to winning the league.”
Give me a fucking break. And they call me panicked. That’s totla and complete science fiction or fantasy mate.
4. “If Park has to play, then there’s something wrong in midfield.”
Park had no reason to start that game but he has his uses and it’s funny that we don’t read this kind of criticism when he completely phases out an opponent star from the game. Typical fickleness from a fan. He is shit when we lose or play bad and he is great when we win.
5. “With a nutter like Park in the middle of the pitch (a stronger version mind), the team could play a proper attacking wide man , like Nani.”
How much did Craig MC pay you to make that comment?
6. “I have total faith in Evans coming in for Vidic”
I have faith in Evans too but he is no Vidic….not yet anyway.
7. “The defence doesn’t come up against that calibre of striker every week, that was a painful, but maybe useful, reminder of what’s to come if they want to go all the way in Europe again.”
Sorry but that’s just bollocks mate. There are plenty of great strikers we go up against and Torres although fantastic is not Brazil’s Ronaldo in his heyday or Gerd Mueller, Johann Cruyff or even Ruud van Nistelrooy in his heyday. He’s not overrated but he isn’t exactly the greatest player on the planet either. Last time I heard, we had the best player on the planet and it is Liverpool who needed to be afraid. Chalk one up for the bad guys this round.
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Surprise, surprise, its been going swimmingly well on redrants with us chasing 5 trophies and on a winning streak, one loss(though embarassing) and poof all that is gone and we’re back to the November/ December 2008 redrants we’re all familiar with.
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@Rd: Oh well, that’s the way she goes.
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Ole, Ole, Ole Ole, HARDCORE, HARDCORE fans.
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We’re off to Fulham for the day, feel the temperature rising
Arsene Wenger – GENIOUS! His comments to the media totally agree with my thinking, with my posts, he is on my wave length. Remind me what he said now – “Manchester United DOMINATED that game, and the Lpool scoreline was flattering. Manchester made UNCHARACTERISTIC mistakes, unusual for them.” Arsene, next time your in town mi man, call me, the Salford reds will finance your drinks all night down the pub. And never a truer word spoken my friend. I never thought I would come to the day where Arsene and I were in agreement, but he is right that we dominated the game, and the scoreline flattered. That has been my sentiments exactly. Don’t care who disagrees with me now, because the two best managers in PL, Fergie and Arsene agree with me, we were in control of that game, until we lost Nemanjah. You’ll do me lads!
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Oh yeah, we don’t agree about our MF though, I still think we need a MF enforcer. A commander
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@Red Ranter: RR, come and stand on the terraces with some of the Man Utd Red Army, it wouldn’t take you long to become ‘Hysterically Mad’ like the rest of us
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@Grognard: Oh Grog, I could never hold a grudge against you!
You know I respect your opinions, even though I may completely disagree. Fair enough, your view is your view. It doesnt inflict me, but it does open my eyes. You are actuallly correct in some of those things(now we are loking through my eyes 
). He hasnt improved so much this last year. He hasnt blown my mind open, he hasnt been as brilliant as I, and others, expected him to be, he just keeps frustraing us and his positioning is woeful at times. There is that inconsistency that you are talking about, but as I said earlier I think that is more because of the squad rotation than the player himself. And the way United rotates these days, that is maybe the most significant problem!
You know I love Andy. But with love comes frustration, rain and utter madness! So I am willing to take that. I will give him time, but I will tall you that if I havent seen any kind of improvement in him until January 2011, I have had it with him me too. That is the time I am willing to give him, and it may seem long but I stil think he is very young for a midfielder. He does have that will to make a goal, turn up the pace in games and run at oppnents that I luv in a player. Even though his passes may go completely wrong sometimes, he can lose a pall because the pace in a game is too slow or he just walks into a dead end, but when he gets it right it looks so beautiful and masterful. And I luv his desire to keep trying! Maybe I am sounding crazy here, but that is my nature.
You say you love that 30 pass movement in goals, attacking with purpose. Well, I have a fairly different view of things. Ive been raised, and my footballing generation is getting raised, by a thing called speed. Play fast, play presice and play direct. Patience is something I dont enjoy so much, I want things done quickly and right. To score a goal on the counter, only on 4 passes, is very nice to me. Playing 30 passes before you score is boring. You cant blame me for having that mentality, its just how I am raised. Of cource, when you lead and think you have time to do such things, you should. And you should never panic! Be cool, but keep the pace of the game at a high tempo. So when Andy plays those quick passes through a defense, so we score in maybe just 4 passes from goalis to goal is what I enjoy.
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@Grognard: @Grognard: One TRULY dire game doesn’t expose ‘the best defence in the PL for most of the season’, as inept and foolish. Well not in my opinion anyway Bro
. I am chalking this down to a blip. Like Wenger correctly says, these kind of defensive errors are VERY uncharacteristic of United’s defence. I am in agreement with that sentiment. Up and ON Grog I say 
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@RedDevilEddy: Awww Eddy, there it is again, I feel your Anderson love mate. You keep believing
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@Redrich: Now you know how L’fool supporters have felt the last 10 years, as Man Utd have done the double over them. Sad isn’t it?
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ps Red Rich, every dog has its day Bro, and that was L’fools day
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@WhiteY: I wouldn’t love to see Nani playing at Fulham, so that he can’t be blamed if we have a bad time there. Let the players that got us into this, get us out of it.
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@Craig Mc: I do like all United fans do, all players do, and the manager does. BELIEVE, as it was written in the Stretford End…
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@Fred The Red: I agree Fred mate. And its not just us that KNOW the scoreline flattered L’fool, Fergie and Wenger do too. I like that
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@Stephen: Stephen mi man, get that City double salt out of our wounds mate. Do not rub it in
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I really do question the mental state of the Fat Waiter. Now known as the Godfather! He has gone public with his DECLARATION of WAR. Right he said post match, we have won the game, now let us WIN THE WAR. WHAT FRIGGIN WAR? This is football, a game. To Rafa he really is AT WAR with Fergie, and has been for some time, and has hated that he couldn’t get the better of him, and NOW like Fergie says it has become too personal. So Rafa has stated that L’fool have a war to win against Man Utd. And they say Fergie is cracking up – hahahahahahaha – yeah right!
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@Craig Mc: Im with you on this one mate, that game was ours to lose until Vidic made the mistake for the Torres goal and it is my firm conviction that if ten matches against Liverpool started in the same way that this one did until just before they equalised, then we would go on and win 8 of them.
If Liverpool had of went in at half time still trailing thier heads would have dropped a little and they would have had to step out and chase the game, leaving themselves vulnerable.
As I said in post 83, the dynamics of the game completely shifted from the moment they equalised and after the second goal went in the situation was tailer made for a Rafa Benitez style team, what is most frustrating is that it was us that cause the problem, and thats not sour grapes or blind loyalty as some people who share my opinion have been accused of, its my honest, thoughtful and considered opinion that Liverpool did not play that well on saturday and that the result was freakish and certainly not down to the Tactical Ingenuity of Rafa.
Having said that, the psychological disintegration of some of our players on saturday in the second half was alarming and confirned some niggling suspicions I have harboured about one or two of them concerning thier bottle in games that arent going according to plan.
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