Sep 14
Liverpool 2-1 Man Utd: Questions Galore for Fergie
I don’t want to go over the actual happenings on the first Anfield defeat in God-knows-how-many-years but there are a few words (or shall we say phrases?) that can sum up our defeat quite well: (relative) lack of hunger, schoolboy defending and an injured midfielder.
I will seek to address some of my observations from the defeat more than making this a match report per se.
Desire:
Or should we say the lack of it? In the first 20 minutes, we looked the real deal. I started making mental notes on how scary we could be with the addition of Berbatov, and with Ronaldo yet to return. But what followed made the first 20 minutes appear a mere case of an adrenaline rush. Everyone’s been quick to condemn our lack of hassling in the midfield, but I would attribute this in part to Carrick’s injury. Because, before this we seemed in control and looked like the home side.
Liverpool, on the other hand, showed more desire to win the game. But even this wouldn’t strike me as new, because ‘pool have, in the past, controlled their home games against us only to end up in the losing side — which brings us to the next point…
Defending:
Often the saving grace for us last season, if you put Ronaldo’s contribution aside, Saturday’s defending would have made Titus Bramble squirm. EVDS, who still remains one of the better ‘keepers in the Premier League, has started making more errors for our liking. And the first goal was his fault. I wouldn’t fault Brown. He also fumbled earlier only for Kuyt to hit a United player instead of the target. Vidic’s red, later in the game, can’t possibly help matters ahead of our trip to Stamford Bridge next week.
Giggs ought to have put the ball out, but he didn’t, and we paid the price for the second goal. Both goals were avoidable. The first one even so because, going into half time, 1-0 up would have been psychologically crushing for the dippers (as against 1-1) because it’s been a mental block for them all this while playing United.
Tactics:
I was happy with Fergie’s intent to play all three strikers upfront, but was disappointed to see Rooney played out wide. Tevez has been in top form and when you are in form, you can do as well out wide as you can in the middle — and I say this because I believe playing Tevez out wide would have still helped him run amock. However, I fear for Rooney the most. I love the kid, I really do. Fergie admitted to misusing Rooney a lot last seaosn. Yet he decides to play Rooney out wide, away from the action. Why?
If he continues to do this, I will really start to worry about Rooney’s development. Whilst Theo Walcott continues to hog the headlines (and I do think rightly so) Rooney had a good game for England because of Emile Heskey. Rooney got to play behind a proper target man and it showed in his performance. Tevez’s trickery would have been better served on the wing than that of Rooney. Berbatov is million times a better player than Heskey, and hence I was looking forward to Rooney linking up with the Bulgarian. I’d rather have Rooney benched than see him shunted out wide in yet another game. It makes me sick to see the sting taken out of his game like this.
And why was Giggs brought in the place of Carrick? If Hargreaves was thought to be fit enough only for 20+ minutes then wouldn’t Nani have better added width to our attack (with Anderson pushed into midfield)?
Thorny Questions for Fergie:
I don’t want this to be a doom and gloom post. If we manage to win our home games against the big four and win the other games against the others with a few draws along the way I think we can still retain the title. But I have questions to ask Fergie.
How does he plan to integrate our strike force when Ronaldo returns?
I suggest, if he plans to play our attacking fab four at once (Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez, Berbatov), then Rooney and Berbatov will have to play in the middle, with Ronaldo and Tevez out wide. Otherwise it has to be either Rooney or Tevez on the pitch, behind Berbatov — not both.
What is his long term strategy for the ‘keepers’ slot?
I really don’t want Foster to break his head in frustration. I love EVDS, but I fear the increased frequency of his gaffes.
Other questions include the status of Hargreaves and Anderson (and possibly Possebon) in our first team mix. But then it would be too much negativity for my own liking.
We lost to a better Liverpool team, although we wouldn’t have really lost had we stuck with the basics of defending. Ferguson was right to have slammed the team, and I hope it works out as a spur for them to bounce back against a good looking Chelsea side.
Right now though, we entertain Joe Red’s Villarreal on Wednesday. Hopefully it helps Berbatov settle better into the club for now.
Related items from Red Rants:- Rooney Out For A Month
- Three Questions for Manchester United
- Do you like Rio Ferdinand?
- Heinze loses arbitration for Liverpool move, what’s next for him and United?
- Man Utd Blog 2007/2008 Home Kit
Tags: Match Reports
September 15th, 2008 at 0:02
“I’d rather have Rooney benched than see him shunted out wide in yet another game.”
Could not agree more. And it is not because I support Rooney over the team. Its simply because Nani/ Park over there will do better than Rooney esp if Rooney is asked to hug the touch line,dont come inside, be disciplined and track every run of Aurelio.
September 15th, 2008 at 0:19
I still think people are overreacting a bit. You can’t win every game and the law of averages was bound to come back and bite us in the asses. I’m going to write this as a one-off. Fergie and the players will have learned their lessons and hopefully we won’t have to sit through an abomination like that again. I’m looking forward to the Chelsea game so we can show them who the best team in the world are!
September 15th, 2008 at 0:28
All I know is that if we play like we did yesterday against Chelsea, we will get blasted.
September 15th, 2008 at 0:34
i can’t help remembering a FA Cup game against Villa? or porthsmouth? when rooney was making his return from the bench for some reason or another… anyway he single handedly won the game. A because he played in his CORRECT postion… for those who don’t know the supporting striker.. and also he came from the bench as an impact player… ok, he shouldn’t start every game from the bench but from the looks of how berbatov and tevez teamed up for that first goal, they should be our starting front men… if it gets to half time/ 60mins without a goal, bring the boy on and all change.. defenders are cofuzzeled and we win (hopefully)
also as many have said… Nani/Park/Ronaldo… .these three wingers… two of which should start every game.. all three can play left and right wing.. all three can interchange… all three can cross… all three can run at defenders and all three can cut inside… perfect interchange.
that leaves two men in centre midfield… scholes so far this season.. and im being totally respectful of they guy here.. he is a legend… but bar the maradonna copycat in that woeful super cup excuse for a game he hasn’t done much.. fletcher has done more (and that is saying something)
personally i would have hargreaves and carrick every time… if either are injured anderson would fill in… and if both were out, anderson and fletcher would have to do…. just let giggs fade out in former glory please..
and brown and vds need to work on talking skills… or should i say foster should be getting equated with the fab four rather sharpish.
berba to score on wednesday.
September 15th, 2008 at 0:37
Simple, we did not need Berbatov; we needed a backup central striker with height when defences are massed, not a 30 mill starter.
Hargo is/was crap and the new Saha, Carrick isn’t good enough to play for England, we don’t know Anderson’s best position, and scholes is 35. Are we that strong in CM?
Rooney on the bench, and Nani in his place would not have worked because Rooney did a lot of defensive work too. Evra was the one responsible for Vida s red; he gave away possession and to be fair, Vida deserved a straight red.
What a sh*** day..our worst performance since Milan away…
September 15th, 2008 at 0:59
I have to admit here that I didn’t actually watch the game; I was stuck without Sky or the net and was relying on 5Live to tell me who was doing well but from the sounds of things Rooney was one of our better players.
It was a bad result, a fact made worse by the bad performance, but all credit to Liverpool really, they got at us once we were 1-0 up. This result could even be the kick up the arse we seem to need. It sounds to me as if going up so early made our players lazy.
I’m more inclined to question SAF than the team after this result; it seems as though Carrick should have been brought off after about 25 minutes, we failed to use width (one of our greatest strengths) to exploit a team famed for their narrow play and we kept Berbatov on for too long.
It’s not all doom and gloom though, and hopefully a nice thrashing of Villareal will restore some confidence. I’m hoping Ronaldo doesn’t play though, all the “Man Utd are crap without Ronaldo” stuff gets irritating.
“Simple, we did not need Berbatov; we needed a backup central striker with height when defences are massed, not a 30 mill starter.” - couldn’t agree more, mate.
September 15th, 2008 at 1:23
@Liam: Exactly! But i for one i’m gutted at the 3 points we lost, not that we lost against Liverpool, that was bound to happen sometimes.
September 15th, 2008 at 1:32
minus the first 20 mins it was certainly the worst united performance i have ever seen !!! … and NO i have no problems in having lost the match … it is about the way we played and fergie agrees … i mean there was this passage in play in which ferdinand was playing friggin tennis with carragher … while 18 people in the middle worthsomething in the region of 200 odd mils were as good as spectators … i mean you can understand carra doing this … he must be scared to bits … but WHY US???? they wanted us not to play football!!! b/c they knew they could never beat us at playing football!! and weplayed right in their hands!!! such naivety!!!! and yes rooney SUCKS on the right wing …. and YES without carrick we dont play football …
September 15th, 2008 at 2:08
RR, I agree with most everything you said however, I disagree about your comment where you said
. Sorry but Liverpool were not and are not a better team. Personally I think they are a load of shite. They outworked us and physically imposed themselves on us but they are not better. We just didn’t show up nor did we have the right tactics or lineup for the contest. We let them steal that game with two rubbish goals.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:35
what did I say about berbertov exactly where is he going to play, and I will keep saying this if fergie bought torres and ribery in the first place these problems would not have taken place.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:43
I’m still sick! Not only because we lost but how we lost. For the first time in ages i really missed Roy Keane, because its what he brought to the pitch that won us games like this. Leadership, guile and the will to win.
I’ve read earlier about how some ranters want skill over strength or vice versa, and this player is more of a AMF or DMF(which mostly applies in a diamond formation). What about the all rounder who can pass, tackle, hold up play when needed, strive forward and split open defences? Keane, Robbo, Wilkins? Anyone? Maybe i’m being tactically naive here wrt the “modern” game. Am i expecting too much from our overpaid professionals?
Our players seemed to lack cohesion, are we really missing CQ?There are plenty of excuses of why we didn’t get a result, defensive errors, players injured, out of position,substitutions ect. I agree with most of it but the main reason was we didn’t play like a cohesive unit and we didn’t want to win as much as the scouse did.
So what? Some say. Its their cup final ect.Fuck that, the dippers are not only our rivals but major competitors in the prem and in europe. Its vital that we get results against these teams.Lets just hope that things get an awful lot better. The slave is coming back, add Nani and that should improve our width, and allow more space for Rooney/Berba/Teves(pick any combo) I’ve been saying Giggs is past it for nearly a year now, and Scholes is losing his usual mastery, so out with the old and in with the new.Not in a disrespective way, but cold hard decisions have to be made. Its not all gloom, things can be put right, hopefully sooner rather than later.Still fuckin hurts though! You never know, maybe the dippers did us a favour with that kick in the bollox!
Ps
a regular night in the pissing rain in some overgrown inclined corner of Carrington with a scrum machine laden with weights might help their concentration and improve teamwork.
September 15th, 2008 at 2:55
“Simple, we did not need Berbatov; we needed a backup central striker with height when defences are massed, not a 30 mill starter.” You’re absolutely right,mate.I for one was praying he went to Citeh.Berba should never have started but come on later with 25 mins to go.the starting 11 should have been:
VDS
Wes Rio Vida Evra
Nani/Park Scholes Anderson Hargo/Fletch
Wazza Carlito
They could easily switch from 4-4-2 to 4-3-3 between plays.Was fergie out of his mind?! Giggs coming in for Carrick. Ryan is a legend but come on guys,he is past it.he should only be used as back-up nowadays.And how many times have we seen rooney left abandoned on the wing.thats not his position.either play him in the middle of the park or take him off.And yes,we do need to start blooding Foster.i dont see VDS playing after the season finishes.
I believe sunday was just merely a one-off horror show.we have too much talent to not regain the title.we will be back to our best come wednesday.without a doubt,the team needs to get its act together real fast. VIVA UNITED!!!
September 15th, 2008 at 3:49
@Grognard: On the day they were better than us.
September 15th, 2008 at 3:52
I don’t think playing the ‘fab four’ is a good idea. Just look at Barca when they tried to accommodate Henry. They look strong on paper but it backfired on them. Who’s to say it’s not gonna back-fire on us if we try to play the four of them together. And I agree with you RR, if it means sacrificing Rooney to the bench rather than playing him out wide, I’m prepared to see that. I bet he can make a great impact to the side if he comes in as a sub, just like Tevez did last season.
September 15th, 2008 at 3:56
@twinnyd: are you havin a giraffe? We dont need Berba! What the *!*? Sorry, but we must be watching different teams in different parallel universes
September 15th, 2008 at 4:25
And that goes to the rest of you Berba doubters, he’ll prove you wrong mark my words
September 15th, 2008 at 5:33
@Red Ranter: Better only because we played like Muppets and third raters. Any team in Europe could have beaten us yesterday. Liverpool were shit and they required to mental mistakes to beat us. Yes they were better than us yesterday because they actually showed up wearing their kit. We showed up wanking off.
September 15th, 2008 at 5:35
Berbatov is a godsend and he will deliver sooner than later. He is not the only thing we need but he was the single most important missing ingredient on our team other than Ronaldo of course. Now lets get everyone back and healthy and lets find the desire and eye of the tiger and we won’t look back.
September 15th, 2008 at 5:38
@Grognard: Exactly my point. They were better than us, which is a shame considering the array of talent at our disposal. So no excuses for losing to the pile of tossers.
September 15th, 2008 at 6:17
Where was Berbatov for 85 minutes of the game? and why did not SAF play Fletcher and OShea when the game was so physical?
And Rio is getting soft?
September 15th, 2008 at 6:22
Cannot watch games that early in the US… It looks bad though when benitez’s tactics beats fergie’s. babel as a sub and scoring in 77th minute… Gutted! And then Chelsea and Arsenal winning too… too much to take after waiting this long for a game… I am looking forward to the game this wednesday and weekend!
September 15th, 2008 at 6:25
I totally agree that Rooney needs to be in the middle of the pitch with Tevez on the right. If we are going to play with a SHIT MF then we need Rooney’s creativity in the middle of the park. I love Carlito but he is NOT as creative as Rooney. I’ve been meaning to say this for a long time now but I thought I’d get murdered on here, does anybody else think that Rooney should get dropped back a bit and play more of Scholesy’s role? I mean he seems like he could be a direct swap for Scholes, and with his strike rate lately (if you can even call it that) I don’t think he warrents his place up front, and I’m as big a Rooney fan as your ever going to find. We all know he plays better with a target man, well how about sticking him directly behind Tevez and Berba and give him 2 of the best? And when Tranaldo gets back… Rooney has that fire that Keano had, and from an AMF role I really feel like he could control the game for us. Hell thats where he spends the majority of his time anyway. I just feel like he brings too much to our attack to drop him to the bench, and I’m not sure he’d stick around for long that way. Oh, and for those of you who say we didn’t need Berba, I couldn’t agree more. I think we’ve done ok the last couple of seasons without him…
September 15th, 2008 at 7:05
I don’t understand what made people think that we don’t need Berba!
If it wasn’t for Berba we would have lost 2-0. It was his exquisite pass that helped Tevej score. If it was any other united player I don’t know what he would have done with the ball… would have tried to score himself… or ball would have found its way to keeper’s hands… may be… Our clueless-wandering midfield hardly delivered ball to Berba to create anything.
Berba to score against Villarreal.
September 15th, 2008 at 7:17
@Red Ranter: It’s all in how you interpret the word better. We stunk so they were better. But on any other day are they a better team than us? Not on your life. Just because one team doesn’t show up, doesn’t make the other one better. I’d say they were more fortunate than us on the day.
September 15th, 2008 at 7:23
@Grognard: As I said they were better on the day. When did I talk about Liverpool being better than us overall? You are saying the same thing as me. We stunk, but does that excuse us? I don’t think so.
And I acknowledged them being more fortunate than us in the sense that we let them back into the game. But in all they did show more desire than us which is a shame on our boys considering it was a derby game.
We are saying the exact same things mate.
Let’s not get into semantics.
September 15th, 2008 at 7:34
eh why should Rooney be relegated to the bench? Berba should have to earn his place.
September 15th, 2008 at 8:56
Try to buy more wingers Fergie….Next time think about it
Well,Rooney has a number 10 behind his back…..not a 7……
Put him behind Berba…..
The very serious problem in this team is that Tevez’s and Anderson’s best position is this one too.I can see Anderson play as a CM(8) or even as a DM(6) but not Tevez…….But for the wings we only have Nani and Ronaldo
We never make a good start in the season but the team looks so not-hungry so tired
September 15th, 2008 at 9:03
past is past…lets accept the fatc that our midfield got murdered .. last year same day we were with 2 points less and still we all know what happened at the end of the season…Next week we must exploit their overlapping full backs..heard ronaldo will be in bench for chelsea game…drop rooney / tevez..play a simple 4-4-2
play flecther as well and lets play our normal game…
September 15th, 2008 at 9:04
@Liam: Berbatov was bought for a specific role to play in the team, while Rooney and Tevez essentially play the same role. Berbatov’s competition for places should come from Manucho.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:07
@Liam: You kidding? Berba should be the first attacker penciled in for the first team! 30.75 Million pounds? Yeah you bet that we didnt pay that for fun!
September 15th, 2008 at 9:16
vital point 1: an equalizer which obviously those bastards didnt deserve, if we have the lead through halftime we have mental edge.
vital point 2: we let em score very late in the game, almost impossible for us to catch up.
and finally, giggs must hang on his boots now while he is still on top (i think) come the next window, fergie needs to look after some midfield maestros.. that’s all..
September 15th, 2008 at 9:35
we will win on stamford bridge i can feel it. what a way to forget this premierleague massacre than to end those bastard rentboyz undefeated home streak..
September 15th, 2008 at 9:51
United won the Champions League and the Premier League playing a predominantly 4-3-3 formation or a variant of this.
I don’t think the formation should be changed to accomodate Berbatov or the “fab four”. We have a tried and tested system - it works.
If we try and accomodate all 4 Strikers in to the team then we will already be taking a step in the direction changing the system similar to Van Nistelrooy accomodating him and his style of play in to the team.
I was impressed with Berbatov in the first 20 mins but I didn’t really see much of him for the rest of the game as the midfield failed to hold on to the ball leaving Berbatov no chance other than long balls.
I must admit that I still have my doubts about him coming to United but I would rather have him as an option in the team than not.
We were all over them for the first 20 mins. But we let them back in to the game even before they scored by gifting them possession and not holding on to the ball. We only have ourselves to blame really!
My one fear is (and this maybe contorversial but) a loss at Stamford Bridge could mean we are no longer in touching distance of Chelsea and therefore playing catch up already. Maybe even out of the title race!
September 15th, 2008 at 9:53
@Red Ranter: That’s funny because I was going to use the semantics point. Agreed.
September 15th, 2008 at 9:57
@Liam: Yes absolutely. Spend 30 million on a much needed striker and then sit him on a bench. The professional game is not managed like the schoolyard mate.
Rooney has done nothing to keep his place secured. As far as I’m concerned he and Tevez can flip a coin as to who sits and who plays. As for Berbatov, he plays until he proves he isn’t worthy. And that won’t happen because he’s a great player.
September 15th, 2008 at 10:03
Hey Grognard I think you were away when I introduced myself to everyone here so hi. I’ve been reading your posts for quite sometime and really find them very thought provoking. I should tell you that I’m from Australia and I’m sure you have sympathy for us down under after what Italy did to us in the last world cup. I know you have the same opinion on Italian football as I do!
September 15th, 2008 at 10:35
@john freakin’ o’shea: love your optimism, it would be a fitting response to Sat. But i’m not over confident of securing a win, even on paper the start to this season looked difficult. We’ll have to bring a “different” team to the bridge, in mindset esp. The opp will target our weak area in the midfield and attempt to strangle our supply line forward. Chelsea have a formidable midfield, much better than the dippers. We need men who can stand up and be counted, re Darren Fletcher/ John O Shea.
I was suprised that Fletch didn’t get a run out against the scouse, he’s had a great start to the season, he’s shown most of those qualities that i’m looking for in a midfielder(previous post), and he’s our big game player. John O Shea can add some steel in midfield, when needed in the absence of Hargo.If we want creativity then look no further than Possebon. We really need to play 4 4 1 1 able to switch to 4 3 3 to give ourselves a fighting chance. I’d advocate playing Rafael as RB and Wes in the middle with Rio. Nani, Hargo, Fletch/Possebon and Teves(in the absence of the slave, Teves can fill in on the right wing, he’s a handfull!)/ as our midfield, with the Roo playing behind Berba. This should have enough umpf to hold our own in the middle of the park, and have some width and purpose. Lets hope so!
September 15th, 2008 at 11:34
Rooney and Berbatov should start and Tevez should be a supersub. As of right now Ronney and Berbatov are 30 million pound strikers, you need to play them. Tevez is still a loan player. How else are you going to create any consistency unless you stick with the same lineup for 5 or 6 games in a row? I believe Roonaberb would shine together, but whatever Fergie does he needs to play Rooney in his correct position
Beratov to score against Villareal
September 15th, 2008 at 11:36
i think selection was our main undoing.Fergie was a brave man to pick all three strikers.but it left rooney out of the loop.and when rooney is playing for us he pulls the creative strings.Fergie shld have played him or tevez with berba.the one of the two would have come from the bench.i prefer bench coz he adds zeal to our attack.Rooney needs to sort out his emotional issues.
September 15th, 2008 at 11:51
richmondred that is the most absurd logic to pick players for.really dude
we should only pick rooney and berba coz we spent alot of money on them.come on dude wake up and smell the roses.We need our best combo upfront whether its rooney/berba ,tevez/berba, rooney/tevez
September 15th, 2008 at 12:08
@phoenix red: im also surprised our leading scorer so far didnt get the nod to go from fergie, what a surprise actually..
September 15th, 2008 at 12:34
after the horror show on saturday i have some things to say:-
we cant play rooney,tevez n berba at the same time.if we hav to then it should be in 4-3-3 not with someone on the wing.n what are we giong to do when cr7 comes back?based on the current form rooney should be the one on the bench nt tevez.one more thing being scholes n giggs should no more be a part of a team in such big matches.fergie should stop playing them out of sentiment.if we have to play them it should be against smaller teams like wigan or stoke etc.also its hard to accept but we are rubbish w/o cr7.n the most imp thing we are missing carlos quieroz like hell!!
September 15th, 2008 at 12:48
well checking the transfers since 2005, van der vaart was available at 3 million pounds in the summer of 2005 we decided to buy the average park, we could have got hargreaves for nothing is well. summer 2007 torres cost liverpool 26 million we decided to get tevez who will cost even more and his goals record is not the greatest, ribery was signed by bayern for 17 million we go for nani who is not at the level united need from him to be at, plus we could have kept rossi is well which is a shame.
September 15th, 2008 at 12:58
Hey Every1 I’m new to the Blog and it’s very interesting to read all your comments. Like everyone here I was extremely frustrated at the manner in which we lost on Saturday. We were totally outhustled in the middle of the pitch. I am a huge fan of both giggs and scholes and they have provided a great and loyal(rare these days)service to our team. However the truth is they are just shadows of the players that they once were. We need to establish a midfield that has the determination and drive that Ince and keane use to give us every week. Carrick had a good consistent season last year. Providing he can stay fit I feel as though he needs to start. He can do everything scholes can do and better and with anderson/hargreaves next to him to tidy things up and nani and ronaldo on the wings are midfield will be very strong. As for the attacking dilema I agree with most peeps on here that we cannot drop berba until he has shown us exactly what he has to offer wearing the famous red shirt. IMO both tevez and rooney have the potential to gel well with berba but I would give the nod to tevez in current form. Bringing on rooney in the second half will scare the f#ck out of any opposition and may encourage him to recreate the form and consistency to get back into the starting 11. Don’t get me wrong I’m a big fan of Rooney but I’d rather see him on the bench and come on and playing in his best position than playing out wide!!
September 15th, 2008 at 13:03
@phoenix red …sorry mate …if we give dasilva tiwns / possebeon a run..then dats it..we will be murdered…they are going to play long ball game and we definitely need somebody who can handle airballs….tink oshea will get a chance as RB with fletcher hargreaves nani and scholes on midifled…berbtov and tevez will start…ronaldo,rooney will come for 20 minutes or so
September 15th, 2008 at 14:32
I think fergie mistakes is used old Giggs & Scholes
to again good physical like Liverpool. Liverpool is never easy for three season, bad result but not the end of the world. i hope fergie play fresh player like Posebon.
September 15th, 2008 at 14:49
Well, for what it’s worth, here are my views now the dust has settled:
1) Keeper I don’t yet think the time is right to throw EVDS out, but I think he is becoming too error-prone to say he will definitely be our no. 1 for the whole season. I can accept a few errors towards the end of a gruelling season, but to be making them at the start of a campaign after a lot of rest is concerning.
We need to start giving Foster games in lesser fixtures (and in training) to let him build up a rapport with the back four - and also to see if he is good enough. The signs are positive for him, and this needs to be a transition season. I hope, by the way, that Foster not Kuscszak is seen as next in line. TK signed an extended contract today, but I haven’t yet seen enough quality from him to convince.
2) Defending Let’s put this down as an aberration. I don’t think the best defence in the country has gone schoolboy overnight, and I think they were put under a lot of pressure by the midfielders’ inability to obtain and retain possession, particularly in our own half.
3) Central midfield There seems to be a bizarre dichotomy developing here. It seems that Scholes can play naturally with Carrick, and Hargreaves can play naturally with Anderson. Once you mix and match, you seem to end up with a disconnect so that you have two independent midfielders rather than a partnership. I have no idea what Anderson’s role in the first half of the Liverpool game was, in just the same was that I had no idea where Giggs was supposed to be playing in the second half.
I don’t think that three in the middle has worked very often for us, and I don’t think it should continue to be used.
As for Possebon, I’m sure he’ll get games this season, but nobody in their right minds could be advocating him as a starter against Liverpool or Chelsea away.
4) Up front My view is that we should play Berba right up, with three players interchangably playing behind him. 4-2-3-1 should be the order of the day. Ronaldo - Rooney/Tevez - Nani looks the most balanced to me, but I can see the first choice being Ronaldo - Rooney - Tevez.
That being said, we know enough to know that Fergie is not going to do that away from home against big sides. In those instances, though, I’d like to see us reverting to a traditional 4-4-2 rather than a 4-3-2-1. I’m thinking Ronaldo and Nani / Park on the wings, with Rooney / Tevez behind Berbatov.
This isn’t the first time that an embarrassment of riches has caused some temporary disruption (Seba Veron, anyone?) - Fergie needs to develop a clear plan for playing these guys together. Training sessions will obviously help that process.
5) Some starting line-ups
Against Villareal on Wednesday:
EVDS
Brown - Vidic - Rio - Evra
Nani - Hargreaves - Anderson - Park
Rooney - Berbatov
(Ronaldo for Nani/Park and Tevez for Rooney as impact subs)
Against Chelski on Sunday:
EVDS
G Neville - Rio - Brown - Evra
Ronaldo / Park - Hargreaves - Scholes - Nani
Rooney - Berbatov
(Tevez for Rooney and Anderson for Scholes as impact subs)
September 15th, 2008 at 15:19
The worst thing about the Berba deal is that I can see Tevez being slowly sidelined…
It makes no sense to accomodate him as he is not technically owned by us. Hence he’ll be the one most likely to lose out and might walk away from us in a while.
September 15th, 2008 at 15:23
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2008/sep/15/premier.league.review
Read the Middle part about Wayne Rooney!
SO TRUE!
September 15th, 2008 at 16:44
sorry but was I the only one who saw our amazing new striker playing a deep role and doing jack-shit with the godawful long ball game that our defence has adopted. I don’t remember once when he took one down and set up an attack with his infinitely superior heading ability. Sorry if nobody else saw that but I’m sure a few goals against the Stokes and West Broms of this league will appease you
September 15th, 2008 at 16:48
Here we go again. U guys advocating 4 a team with Berba Rooney Tevez and Ronaldo starting are clearly in the same dreamland Fergie was on Sat. One of Roovez has to be on the bench. In fact all 3 strikers should be equally rotated. How do u play a system with 4 primary forwards at the same time? Thats insane. Such Playstation tactics and formations made us deserved losers at Anfield. Idiotic. Manucho is on his way. He should get a chance in the rotation. So what happens to players like Nani,Park,Anderson etc in such an idiotic formation that some of u are driving for? Absolute madness. Please lets leave Playstation fantasies in our consoles. Unbelievable
September 15th, 2008 at 16:58
@Liam: I saw it mate and I totally agree.
I didnt want him and every reason I gave was proved right in that game. he was nowhere for 85 mins. oh oh sorry….he was probably “conserving his energy” for the final third. Where are Stephen, Gabriel, or Craig Mc? Id like to hear them make excuses for Berbacrap.
September 15th, 2008 at 17:06
Liam- What are u on about? The long balls as u said were awful. So what was he to do? I get the feeling that people expect unnatural or even paranormal abilities from a player because he cost £30m. The long ball tactics nullified the midfield and were ultimately poor. Berbatov is very good at holding the ball and drawing defenders. This opens up space for our attacks to run into. Simple. Thats what he is best at. Unfortunately because the British mentality in football is still archaic and us having two Britons on the technical bench, Berbatov’s role is foolishly limited to ‘the big’ striker who knocks the ball to the on rushing ‘little’ striker with his head. So Vidic was foolishly delegated to be the long ball distributor. Thats not using Berbatov to his strengths. Watch his game with Spurs. He played with his feet to cleverly set up Keane and co.
September 15th, 2008 at 17:12
@Jay wire: so we bought a striker to assist the prolific Rooney and Tevez, sorry but he was bought specifically for height and goalscoring and if he doesnt start producing fast he will have been a waste. We are only going to get 3 or 4 seasons out of him so he should start now
September 15th, 2008 at 17:30
Jesus this is an absolute joke, Berbatov has played ONE game and has only played 30 minutes of competitive football prior to that this season and some of you are already on his back? There are many people who have said about the lack of class and loyalty that Ronaldo showed during the summer, at least we know that he is not alone in those traits.
September 15th, 2008 at 17:30
@Liam: @jstar7: Guys, whole team was playing bad on saturday… Berba was never delivered to create anything… And Berba is not Ronaldo who can dribble the ball from half line to the Box… Berba hardly ever got the ball… And if it wasn’t for Berba’s assist, we would have lost 2-0… more humiliating that would have been…
September 15th, 2008 at 17:30
Liam I was another that was not in favour of buying berbertov, I keep repeating myself that you cant have 3 strikers who think they all should play in the first team you need the balance, thats why I said we should have snapped up fernando torres who is exactly what united needed. and another thing I said how was he great in the air never seen him score loads of goals in the air for spurs.
September 15th, 2008 at 17:36
@JB: Yup. Couldn’t agree more.
September 15th, 2008 at 17:37
i agree with penguin about fergie needing a clear plan.
I saw it as a 442 at anfield. anderson on the left rooney on the right. it was always 442… carrick for giggs. giggs became the left winger, andy moved into the center. then scholes for hargreaves and so our midfield changed again for the second time. then nani for andy and giggs moved into the centre and nani on the left…. which was the thing that got me banging my head on the coffee table.
i surely thought we were going 41221 like with one DM in OH, wingers in nani and giggs, and roovez as the AMs… with that i thought we could wrest back some control… but no, i was foolish to think that we wanted to win the game…
hopefully fergie realises that his wide array of talent is for him to be used properly in the right situation. and not throw on the all his players with the ability to pass the ball around nicely and expect that to be the be all and end all.
September 15th, 2008 at 17:42
@JB: well if he wasnt match fit then why the hell was he played at all? and im not disputing that the whole team played badly. they were awful. but still…this was berb’s debut…his first match in a united shirt. i would have thought he would be busting his balls to show us fans how much it means to him! maybe im asking too much to want to see some passion from him on his debut against the freaking pool! if he cant get “active” or up his energy levels for a match like this….how the hell is he gonna do it for any other match!!
September 15th, 2008 at 17:44
@AndyCR7: no dispute for the assist. it was lovely and a great start. where was he after that?
September 15th, 2008 at 17:51
The only problem with our squad at the moment is that we could do with another young central midfielder. Obviously one who’s good enough for us straight away will be expensive, but I’d have preferred to see £20 mil plashed on another Anderson than £30 on Berba. Time will tell, I guess, although Possebon hasn’t looked up to much.
Anyone know him better than I do and feel qualified to judge on his abilities? Same thing with Manucho actually, does anyone feel qualified to pass judgement?
September 15th, 2008 at 17:51
@jstar7: He isn’t a Tevez though, he will never run about the pitch like a mad man. If you are waiting for him to do that then you are in for a very long wait. He is meant to bring a touch of class, vision and smart movement to the team, not work rate. For all his running about, Tevez did not make much of an impression on the game after his goal yet he gets a bye because he appears to be ‘committed’.
Regardless of that it is exceedingly harsh to judge a player on ONE performance, in one of out HARDEST away games, when only ONE United player managed an acceptable level of performance. In addition the comment about the competitive football this season was meant with regards to his match sharpness. Simply being pumped up for a game does not necessarily make you match sharp.
September 15th, 2008 at 17:56
@michael: Given that we are running with 5 CM’s at the moment and that only one is nearing retirement age why have you identified that as the part of the squad that needs improvement?
September 15th, 2008 at 17:57
@jstar7: no dispute for the assist. it was lovely and a great start. where was he after that?
Where was anyone after that?
September 15th, 2008 at 17:59
@JB: again, if he wasnt match sharp why play him in one of the HARDEST away games? and im allowed to judge him on his performance in that game, which was awful…simple as.
oh and tevez didnt just “appear” to be committed, he WAS committed.
and i am sick of hearing that berba gets a bye from doin any work for the team cos he is bringing the “class” to the team. Im sorry but didnt we win the PL and the CL last year. Did we not do it by playing some great football? are we that lacking in creativity and class that we need to bring a player to add some flair to our boring and stale style of football?
September 15th, 2008 at 18:02
@Red Ranter: granted the team was poor all round. but should we not have expected more effort from someone on their debut? if he hasnt permormed by xmas are the same people going to be saying things like “he is not getting the support he needs”, or “he is not getting the right type of ball to produce”?
September 15th, 2008 at 18:02
Right time for my two pennies worth on the game. IMO opinion there is a danger of over analysis on this one. I share many of the concerns expressed, from trying to wedge Rooney, Tevez and Berbatov into the same team, to formational issues, defensive organisation, Edwin’s form and issues over whether Phelan is the right man to replace Quieroz.
That all said I do not view this performance as that far detached from our last two visits to Anfield. The two prior year’s yielded 1-0 wins, this year a 2-1 reverse. The difference? Simply put, individual errors. If VDS does not flap at the deflected Alonso shot and Giggs clears his lines I genuinely believe we would have scrapped a 1-0 win from the games.
Like previous visits we contributed very little attacking wise during the game and our midfield couldn’t get a hold of the ball. It’s not as if we never reverted to hoofing long balls up the pitch in CQ’s regain or prior to Berbatov’s arrival. It’s not as if there weren’t days when our midfield was overrun and our attack was non-functioning last season. At this stage if we can get in and out of Stamford Bridge with a draw then we can start building the season from there without having suffered too severe damage.
That doesn’t mean I don’t have some long term concerns for the team. The team selection was odd, given the personnel on the pitch were suited for a 4-3-3 why did they start in a 4-4-2? More to the point, why was the formation not changed after it became apparent that the 4-4-2 was being too easily overrun?
Secondly I do not believe Scholes has a place in a two man CM when away from home any more. He is fine at OT when we are generally in control and in a three man midfield with two others to do his running but he looked his age yesterday.
As for the starting line up with all of the big names, a 4-2-3-1 looks like a possibility, with Tevez, Ronney and Ronaldo as the supporting 3. You probably couldn’t use it in every games, particularly the bigger ones where one of Rooney/Tevez would probably be dropped for an additional midfielder. But it doesn’t look anymore unbalanced/unfeasible than some of formations last year that almost turned into 4-2-4’s at times.
September 15th, 2008 at 18:04
@jstar7: The sensible thing to do usually is to give a player the benefit of doubt before immediately jumping on his back — even if you didn’t approve of his initial purchase.
Jumping on his back after seeing 15 bad games, instead of the one bad one has more credibility. You do realise that this is a new system he has to adapt, and he’s had no preseason whatsoever plus he came back straight after the international break.
I would give him some leeway even if I was dead against his purchase.
But I was for buying Berbatov so I would give him benefit of the doubt.
September 15th, 2008 at 18:12
@jstar7: Fine Tevez was committed. But it was commitment that had little positive effect or contribution. So from that respect was there much difference between him and Berbatov, other than perception?
Players are different. Hargreaves will run about more than Carrick, but Carrick will pass the ball better. Park will cover more ground than Giggs/Nani, but they are the better crossers. That doesn’t make one better player better than another, just different and you generally have to live with those natural traits. Ronaldo will rarely run himself into the ground doing defensive work but you indulge him because of the other things he brings to the table. The same theory applies to Berbatov.
Why play him if he is not match sharp? I don’t know, you would have to ask the manager. But if he wasn’t match sharp and was picked anyway then it is hardly Berbatov’s fault.
We did win the CL and PL last year but you are sticking your head in the sand if you think there weren’t some flaws in the team last year. As has been pointed out on ample occasions it was the solidity of the defence and Ronaldo’s one man demolition show saved our hides on numerous occasions. For my money there were numerous occasions lat year when we were sorely missing a striker like Berbatov.
September 15th, 2008 at 18:14
@JB: We don’t really have 5 though, do we. We have Scholes and Hargreaves who can’t play consecutive games more than 5 times a season, Carrick who is very good but often seems short of confidence, Anderson who for all his greatness cannot score a goal and then Possebon who has played approximately 9 seconds for us.
It’s not that I think we lack quality there, I just think that considering that next season Scholes is likely to be peripheral if present and that we already had 2 class strikers, a goal-scoring winger and 2 youth strikers that our manager apparently rates highly it seems up front wasn’t the cleverest place to spend £30 million quid.
No doubt Berbatov is good enough, I just think that If we’re going to play a 3-man midfield most games then we need at least one midfielder who’ll get 10 league goals and/or another player like Carrick or Barry.
September 15th, 2008 at 18:24
@michael: Fair enough point, I’m concerned about the lack of goals from the middle of the park as well. The only problem is that if you buy another top class CM you have the same problem as up top, what do you do with them all? It is a juggling act to get them all proper game time as it is.
P.S. Is Fletcher dead or just invisable
September 15th, 2008 at 18:49
I know this is going off on a tangent but I feel it is relevant. AIG’s shares have fallen nearly 80% since the start of the year and the current credit crunch isn’t helping them either. I don’t know how much money they sponser Man Utd but I hope it isn’t a large percent of our revenue as they, like XL(the sponser of West Ham), might go bust. Maybe this has been a contributing factor as to fears that we don’t have a lot of cash to spend?
As for the game I’m disappointed we lost which is of course a natural feeling. I’m also disappointed in the way in which we lost but I am now hoping we go to stamford bridge now and totally destroy them.
September 15th, 2008 at 18:53
@JB: Ha ha invisible I guess, especially when you consider that he’s been our best player (or one of) this season… Bit of a flop by me, that one
. But still, he can do a job and do it well but he’ll never hold down a place in the team.
September 15th, 2008 at 18:58
@Anderson8: I wouldn’t worry about that. If AIG goes bust, the Manchester United brand is big enough for us to net another sponsor who may be willing to even pay more than AIG are currently — considering our success on the pitch. It can only be good for us.
September 15th, 2008 at 19:22
@Red Ranter: Yeah AIG are only our sponsors because they lent the Glazers the money to buy us, aren’t they?
So, in the unlikely event AIG goes bankrupt, what happens to our debt?
September 15th, 2008 at 19:37
@michael: That’s a theory peddled by MUST and the like and I have seen very little in the way of evidence for it. AIG own a large stake in a hedge fund which was used by the Glazers when funding their takeover. How that jumped to AIG effectively getting their shirt sponsership ‘for free’ I don’t know. We are funded to the tune of £56.5m over a four year period by AIG, the biggest shirt sponsorship deal in the UK.
As for the debt, it will stay regardless of what happens to AIG.
September 15th, 2008 at 19:53
hey RR
off topic but how about a redrants league for the UCL…? at uefa.com ??
September 15th, 2008 at 21:07
we have the players to dominate football for years as far as im concerned however i fear for us unless we get a new tacticaly astute coach. Sometimes fergies tactics/ substitutions amaze me & i dnt think Phelan has any particulary clever ideas of how to accomodate all our superstars cohesively into the team either.
This will be contraversial but i strongly feel Giggs has to retire as he clearly has very little to offer the team any longer. He broke the appearance record AND won another European Cup. Hes holding back the development of our young squad that need to develop quickly so that they are prepared for the inevitable retirement of the old guard.
I dont think Scholes should start in the big games any longer unless he is on FIRE. Hes still a classy player with great passing but as an all round player he is below par. From what i can see his little legs just cant keep up any more!
I know hes young and inexperienced but i am convinced Possebon would be a better option for us in midfield instead of scholsey. His physical presence alone would help us i feel.
I just hope Fergie can see and accept what is happening before his eyes and act accordingly.
The way i see it our main Midfielders in a couple years will be Carrick, Hargreaves and Anderson. To me as a midfield three they work perfectly together. Thats assuming Hargreaves can stay fit!
This will be contraversial but i really think we need to get rid of Ronaldo as soon as possible. The wee prick doesnt deserve to wear our strip any longer.
When he returns to the fold he will no doubt only further compliacte the team selections for Fergie & Co.
September 15th, 2008 at 21:59
Moan, moan, feckin moan. I remember everyone saying Sheringham was crap, Andy Cole was crap, Ronaldo was one trick pony, Evra and Vidic were deemed crap that 1st season. Now its Berbacrap after one game, with players who he had never played with before, not trained with, and had no proper idea of our system of play. Berba also picked up a knock, and that didn’t help. Suddenly, he has to come in, and safe the feckin day, when United was shit all round. They do what they always do, when the midfield are continually LOSING the ball, and they are under pressure. Just pump the ball up the field, anywhere will feckin do. I bet Berba has never been so feckin confused in his football life. He probably thought he was playing a system Fergie had sent them out to play, but what was that system, even I was feckin confused. Was the system, listen defenders, our midfielders are so shit, that they cannot play keep ball under pressure, so just keep lobbing the ball up to Berbatov. Was that the system, because that’s what they did. Stop feckin blaming a player who has only just joined us and has to find his way. The other United players should have been making it easy for him. Another thing, I don’t think Fergie should let Ronnie back into the team, until the rest of the players have learnt to play football without him. Ronnie is reports are true, is already talking again about new challenges. What he means is, I have sat and watched this lot play, and I don’t think we will recapture the last two seasons. So, let him sit for a bit more, until we prove whether he is right or not.
September 15th, 2008 at 22:02
campbel was an unused sub today vs villa and gio looks the real deal.
he looked to be trying to be ronaldo on the right today cut in and shoot or flick vs cross 4 to 1 but had some good shots and his close control is good like many diminutive spanish speaking forwards.