Oct 26
Liverpool outplay poor United
Let’s make no pretence about this: we were beaten fair and square by Liverpool. We can talk all we want about refereeing incompetence; true there were a few errors but the crucial ones were offset on the other side too. Nothing however disguises the fact that yesterday was a defeat that was fully deserved.
This makes it a hat trick of Liverpool wins and that’s what makes it hard to stomach.
I was a little more sympathetic towards our 4-1 defeat because I felt it was conceded as a result of a lot of individual errors, and didn’t exactly reflect our competitiveness and dominance on the pitch. Yesterday there was little scope for excuses.
I have to commend Ferguson for being brave in his tactics at the start though. He went with a 4-4-2 away from home. It’s great to see the man wanting to go for it with the current ‘mini-crisis’ at Liverpool. However, it seemed obvious as the match wore on — shockingly so — that our midfield weren’t up to it. It’s a recurring theme this season — and will remain true for a while, I’m sure — that our midfield needs muscle. Carrick has regressed this season [decent performances in Europe don't always cut it] and Scholes, with his age, cannot always be trusted to last 60 minutes against the bigger opposition. He’s blown hot and cold this season, and it’s not really his fault that he’s considered the first choice over other prospective members in the midfield.
What was a sad sight however, was to see a midfield of Lucas and Mascherano, not really in his best form so far, dominate the midfield, cutting off the supply lines to our strikers.
Which brings us to our attack. Rooney slaved away up front, but there’s little he could do if he doesn’t get the support he needs. Berbatov is a static player by nature. He needs mobility around him to work. And if that’s not there, then he’ll only inhibit our style. As much as the management will insist he’s fantastic, and classy, and that he doesn’t have to run always, there were moments when trying to bust a gut would have helped. We can make excuses for him and say he’s not getting help. Or we could say he’s not dynamic enough. Either of those points of view means he isn’t necessarily a fit for us. Yet. Berbatov does need help from the midfield, but he doesn’t make it easier either.
Giggs had an off day, and for a 36 year old, he is entitled to have off days. However Valencia on the other side played his heart out. I thought he was a bright spark, both in attack, and defensively. He was unfortunate to hit the bar from a tight angle.
Fernando Torres showed what a striker could do if he worked the channels tirelessly. He beat Ferdinand for pace clearly, but our defensive line had to share part of the blame. Two years ago, Rio had Torres firmly ensconced in his back pocket. The drop in Rio’s pace has been stark this season. However this is not to take any credit away from Torres’s goal.
The talking points undoubtedly will come down to refereeing. I was shocked how Lucas got away the whole match without a card, I won’t however make a big deal about Giggs being nudged in the area. Carragher’s tackle on Carrick was a dead-on penalty, but we could make the same case of Kuyt being brought down by Berbatov in the area. I thought Vidic’s first yellow was a bit soft although we’ve seen them given in the past, whilst Carragher should have seen red for bringing down Owen. None of them however was game changing, potentially. Arsenal fans, earlier in the season, would have been aggrieved at Fletcher getting away with a lot of fouls in that game, but we saw very little reason to complain then. I can’t see why we should now.
We’ve been Champions for three seasons in a row, and many more times in Ferguson’s tenure. And much of that is because we’ve made our own luck. Yesterday wasn’t even close to that day, and how we bounce back has a lot to do with how the players view yesterday’s defeat. The positives to take from yesterday, however, is everyone in the top four (or close to it, barring Chelsea) — Arsenal, Spurs, Man City — have dropped points. And that’s some portion of luck we’ll have to take and make full use of.
Related items from Red Rants:
- United Get the Job Done, Just
- Portsmouth Preview
- Can We Really Rely On Berbatov?
- Liverpool’s ‘Match-Fixing’, and the FA Cup Cockup
- West Ham United 4-0 Manchester United: No One Cares About The Carling Cup Anyway
Tags: Match Reports
Craig Mc (195)
RedDevilEddy (170)
Opti (135)
Moscow is my heaven (96)
Ian (95)
The result was very, very dissapointing. The performance was exremely dissapointing. I don’t accept the claims that there is a lack of passion; they simply make no sense in the context of Champions of England. Liverpool played better than us and i think the problem was a combination of excellent midfield displays from Lucas as Mascherano and our inability to counter it. I also wonder about the decision to play Rooney. He didn’t look 100% and it may have made more sense to start with Owen… I’m gutted (I work alonside Scousers and they are very bad winners) but it’s only October and we’re still in good shape league-wise. Its not thrill-a-minute and the lack of progress in the midfield is concerning but we are still good enough to win it.
Something which did occur to me recently… I was wondering why Fergie didn’t spend the Ronaldo money. It doesn’t make sense. I know he sniffed around a few players but with £80M and a bit of determination he could of got most of the available big names. Is it possible that the funds are being held back for his successor? This makes some sense i suppose especially when you consider our recent fixation on developing youth. We’ll see.
One Love, One United.
Edit: This is not to be confused with the regular Dan. I hope this Dan changes his handle to some thing else. – RR
Update: He’s changed it to RedDan.
So that should sort this out.
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Consider it done!
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@RedDan: Cheers mate.
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What on earth is going on in the mind of our manager?
If he keeps making these insane team selections we are going to end up trophyless.
Personally I think everything has gone downhill since Queiroz departed.
Since he left..
- The likes of John O’Shea and Park Ji Sung became first teamers.
- Anderson and Nani, after fine breakthrough seasons are never given a run in the side.
- God awful tactics
Our record against Liverpool with and without Queiroz speaks for itself.
With W7 D1 L0 – Without W0 D0 L3
- Supreme
Fine blog by the way.
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the ref, the fuckin ref, most people are happy to blame him then rather admit WE were OUTPLAYED by a MEDIOCRE liverpool team!!! and what does that say of us?
cause man for man our team is better than theirs yet we crumbled, were exposed and made to look lacking in so many ways!!!
yesterdays defeat hurt deeper than i can express, i hate liverpool and everything to do with them, and we should of ended their season, however our boys werent up for it, they looked non-chlant and rooney is not as good as everyone precieves, and in contrst owen would of thrived on starting this game!!!! 15 min is just not enough!!
so anyway what is wrong with our current team? are they simply not go0d enough, do they not care, or has the manager simply just got it wrong???what i do no know is we have no bite and no real quality in midfield, and as everyone but fergie can see is that although rooney and berba are good players the partnership does not work, its one or the other, FERGIE please sort it out or just call it a day…..
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While we have undeniable squad depth our players seem more brittle than they were ten years. Our defence is like a pack of dominos: one down, the rest follow and this has happened every season at key times. Our best midfielder is made of glass (Hargreaves). Our third striker is wrapped in wool and only unleashed for twenty minute intervals, and the star of our team (and I use that word loosely) gets injured at regular intervals and then needs a run of games before he is firing on all cylinders and scoring (Rooney).
Frankly we NEED the depth, so it is not that much of an advantage especially as our first XI is by no means superior to any of our main rivals.
I disagree there is an immediate crisis-we are still very much in contention for the title and will qualify for the knock out stages of the Champions League. But what we definitely have is stagnation and sclerosis. We peaked in 2007/8 and even that success was in a large part due to Ronaldo having the season of his life.
For me the main problem is complacency on the part of Ferguson. He is tolerating too much mediocrity in our squad and our most recent buys have been unsuccessful thus far (Berbatov, Nani, Anderson, Hargreaves represent almost £100 million in spending and I wouldn’t say any of them has really improved our squad-for me Tevez in 2007/8 was a better fit than Berbatov over the last two seasons, Hargreaves shows no signs of ever returning to fitness, and Nani and Anderson are no longer spring chickens).
And then we had the Ronaldo money.
Really with all the money we’ve spent over the last few years and the money we had from Ronaldo we could have really bought 3-4 amazing players who would have strengthened our first team. Instead we took a huge gamble paying over the odds for Nani and Anderson, were unlucky with Hargreaves, and while Berbatov appeared to be a classic Fergie signing he isn’t a good fit for the personnel in our team and certainly is not worth anywhere near £30 million.
Fergie has made some inspired signing in the past but his transfer policy has failed over the last few years and that is a big reason why we’ve ended up with this rather mediocre squad. He keeps playing Giggs and Scholes because in his sentimental old age he prefers former world class players to mediocre youngsters. The truth is that if we had better midfielders than Nani and Anderson, Giggs and Scholes wouldn’t get a game.
I don’t buy this argument that youngsters need a run of games to come good. If they are good enough they take the chances they get and force their way into the team. Rooney walked into our team at 18 because he was good enough. Same with Ronaldo. But Nani and Anderson have had ample first team outings and they haven’t broken into the team and I understand that Fergie sees Giggs and Scholes as safer bets despite their age.
We have a new crop of youngsters who are still a few years off breaking into the first team. But if they are good enough they will be able to take their chances to impress and break into the team. Until they are ready Im afraid we have to settle for second best.
It is easy to paint Fergie as not giving youngsters chances. But I still believe Fergie feels that if they are good enough they are old enough. The problem is that the youngsters on the fringes of the first team aren’t good enough. Hopefully the next crop (Pogba, Ljajic, Petrucci, Macheda (I count him because really despite the supersub appearances he is still a few years off being read) and co. are)
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@Tufty: Berbatov was neat, for the most part, but our only decent player? Not really. That was one of his laziest, most energy deficient performances. His layoffs didn’t enigineer anything significant (mostly because they didnt match his normal standard) and he had to pick up the ball because of Carricks and Scholes’ ineptitude. Owen came in- almost had an assist, earned 2 freekicks just outside the 18, and forced liverpool’s back line to play more deep, the 1-0 lead notwithstanding. Rooney wasn’t any more effective, but berbatov simply wasn’t supplying the ball in a manner or offering any threat that convinced me he was the better option. His body language didn’t even debate it because he knew he was poor. WR simply commands more attention, even on an off day, allowing Owen to manuevre more freely.
I agree that it wasn’t a penalty, but it was a definate sending off for Carragher. If Owen was not going onwards to goal, then where the hell was he going? The point at which Carragher mugged him, Carra was the last man, so whether players were following to cover and would have gotten there is irrelevant. Second, owen was adjusting to trap the ball and turn towards goal, but couldn’t do so because he was impeded.
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@colver: The issue at the beginning of this season was “Why didn’t we replace the scoring potential of Ronaldo with a new player(s)”. Was it because we couldn’t afford it, or was it because SAF felt that we had enough depth and upcoming youth to sustain this concern.
The latter was the populist opinion, and one intimated by SAF himself. He was confident that the young players being signed and with what was already sparkling in the reserves could come through and do the job for us.
Fact is SAF has been, so far, reluctant to entrust the hopes of this season on the rookies, and is persistent in his selection of the golden oldies.
What are we to believe??
Could it be his last season, and he’s simply trying to protect a record of respectability? Or, which to me is more likely, are our young fledglings just not yet up to the task.
We don’t really know about the issue of transfer funds (the availability of them will not be common knowledge) and so we can’t speculate that we have tried and failed to bring in new blood!
There are so many factors that defy reason, that the only reasonable thing to assume is that there is a distinct lack of effective leadership at the top echelons of this club.
Read into that what you will, but there’s certainly something smelling foul around our parts!!
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@Tufty:
1. It’s a common myth that if a tackler wins the ball then it can’t be a foul. This is not what the rules states. Carragher was a penalty because even tho he touched the ball he didn’t disposses carrick. He always wasn’t in control of his momentum and that’s why he brought down carrick.
2 carragher’s professional foul on Owen was an absolute red card. Owen was clear on goal and the tackle was a “denial of a clear goal scoring opportunity. So no matter if he was the last man or not(which he was) it was a straight red.
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@Grognard: I agree it was poor refereeing, but At the end of the day we had no buisness getting anything from that game. I just am desperate to know when SAF is going to stop swimming in that river Denial and address our struggling midfield. He claims that he has since watched the CL final in Rome and knows where he went wrong. Well judging from his summer transfer activity and yesterdays team selection, he hasn’t learned a thing from the Rome ass whoping
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@Johnsom33: I think everyone wants to believe it’s just that we’re lacking in the midfield, but if truth be told, the problems are far more reaching.
In my estimation, we could replace our entire MF and it wouldn’t make a damn difference to the dynamic with what we have up front! And to compound that, I would go on to say that with a pair of new strikers, the current MF would still struggle to provide good service!
We need at least two top players – one in CMF and a large target up front that has a track record of scoring goals!!
There is no chemistry in the attacking elements of this team, and often times resembles the ball careening of the buffers of a pinball machine – it has no clarity and nobody really knows who’s passing to who!!
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@Redrich: I disagree, Rooney and berba are both class players. The fact ofvthe matter is they get zero service. Scholes and carrick just don’t have the bite we need in midfield. They were dominated yesterday just like we were dominated in Rome. Xavi iniesta and toure put on a clinic and we were basically chasing shadows all game. Hell even Sunderland has a better midfield than us. Cana and Cattermole were simply to much for scholes.
I admit that I wouldn’t mind a upgrade in the striker dept, but if our midfield can’t control the game or supply the attack, then it’s all for nothing.
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@colver: Fantastic rant mate. I so agree with you, especially about the youngsters not being good enough or else they would have forced the old goats onto the bench. Fergie has a lot to answer for and the problem of course is, he doesn’t give a damn and he never will answer for his failures. He will just retire one day give us and the media the up yours sign and go off into the sunset.
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@Johnsom33: So then.. you would agree!! A new striker and a new CMF’er??
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@Johnsom33: And I have been saying this for 6 months now. He had a chance to buy players to replace Ronaldo and he didn’t for whatever reason. I said this team was not good enough and it was not a knee jerk reaction. It was a reaction based on watching this club for years now and seeing just how ordinary they truly were but also how incredible Ronaldo was and how he literally carried them on his shoulders. I knew the day he left us would be a dark day because for five years now I have not had one ounce of trust in the Glazer’s and i even predicted before he was sold that if we got a lot of money for Ronaldo, i’d be very afraid that the Glazer’s would get their money grubbing paws on it. Again I was right. And it goes on and on and on. So many flaws and so many mistakes that I was amazed how few could see what I was seeing. But they all can see it now. They see Fergie and United for the colossal failure they have become. And I say this when they are just two points out of first. But that’s how certain I am of their demise, unless major changes and player purchases are made not in the summer, but in January to avoid the the hike in player prices after the World Cup.
I am sick and tired of watching this crap on tv every week. We are not West Ham or Hull City or Liverpool or Villa for that matter. We are United and we should not have to tolerate or sit through this garbage and be fed the body of lies and bullshit that has come out of the mouth of Fergie, Gill and the Glazer’s. I’m sick of it and honestly, I’m sick of them. Couples who have been happily married for thirty years with kids divorce or separate, why the Hell should I feel any pity or loyalty to a team and manager who doesn’t give a rat’s ass about my financial commitment to the team and about the time I waste being bored to tears with the garbage product he is fielding week after week. I’m sick of the site of them. In fact, after 35 years, Fergie has done a wonderful job of making me sick of football period.
Great memories fade quickly from the mind when you aren’t having fun anymore.
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@Redrich: It’s simple mate. The team struggles because itdoesn’t have players with enough skill to overcome a full court press and we haven’t got players who are fast enough and have enough control and skill of the ball at speed to make a difference. Anderson is a fucking joke, Nani is disappointing, Valencia for a winger is woefully static and slow Scholes is dead and Giggs is near death. Carrick is and has always been a lead foot and Fletcher is the only midfielder we can count on game in and game out. Imagine that. Who would have said two years ago that right now, our best midfielder hands down and by a country mile would be Darren Fletcher. And as good as he has been, he is not a world class player by any sense of the imagination. Did anybody watch Keita score a hattrick yesterday for Barcelona? This guy is a DMF and he is the backup to Ya Ya Toure for crying out loud and he scored three frakken goals. I’m not saying he is world class but Barcelona have two midfielders sitting on their bench who are better than any of the midfielders we have. And that’s the problem. We are United, we should have players of the quality of Xavi and Iniesta in the middle and Ronaldo and Messi up front. Ibrahimovich is every bit as lazy and languid as Berbatov but he gets so much service, he can’t help but score goals. Why we are not trying to be the best in the world anymore is a matter of great frustration for me. We aren’t even the best in England anymore. I cannot wait until we meet our Waterloo in the second round of the Champions League. I don’t know who it will be who will beat us, but I bloody damned well guarantee it will happen.
Honestly, I am so sick and tired of ranting with such negativity. I want to rant about how awesome Rooney was or wasn’t that an amazing goal by Owen and what a pass by Berbatov but it aint happening folks, not even when we win. It’s very very discouraging. My name is Grognard and I am a Unitedholic.
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@Johnsom33: You hit the nail on the head mate.
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@Redrich: I’ll offer my take. We need a world class RB, a replacement for Rio at CB (I’m not convinced Evans is the man), A RMF with pace and immense skill (Love the Krasic fellow over at CSK) a LMF player who is a carbon copy One attacking central midfielder who can play across the midfield (can anyone say David Silva) a healthy Owen Hargreaves and a striker who literally camps out in the 8 yard box of the opponent and who sniffs out goals like Hugh Hefner sniffs out pussy. And above all, we need a new manager. I am sick of the old man and his negative and cowardly tactics and his rotating merry go round of starting elevens. It’s time for a new generation folks. It hurts I know, but the time is fast coming upon us.
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@Grognard: Well then, lets give it a break and prepare ourselves for Barnsley!!
SAF will give the youngsters a chance, albeit with the threat of exile to some obscure French league club if they fuck up.
Here’s hoping we get a look at Gibson, and give Scholesy the night off!!
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@Grognard: Grog, I mostly agree. But the true need is check book with many pages and pen with much ink.
And the balls to write them!!
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@Redrich: I couldn’t care less about our school of young fish as I am of the belief very few of them are at the level I think we should be looking for. Also, the day I show interest in the Carling Cup is the day I know Alzheimers has hit me.
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@Redrich: You said it. Fergie has the balls to be defiant and arrogant towards the press and to referees but he positively starts to shake at the knees if he has to sign a check. Even if it’s not his own money. JEEZ!
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Just a thought. We are skint, lets not deny it. Recent success has papered over the cracks of what an utterly poor and dangerous financial situation the club is in thanks to the Glaziers
Recent transfers have been failures) over £100 million of them) If recent players purchased where sold the only one that would generate a profit would be Owen and we got him for free
All of this in mind the manager has been told to make do with what he has got. So don’t expect any signings in January.
The manager knows what he has is not good enough and will keep trying to squeeze results out playing negative football allowing us to finish in the top 3 in the league and get as far as we can in Europe before calling it a day.
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C’mon guys – I think we’re getting abit too negative here. We are champions of england (for the third year on the spin), we’ve reached two consecutive champions leauge finals (winning one) and have hoovered up countless other silver pots to boot. To borrow a saying of an over-weight spandiard – That is a fact!
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I think SAF went in with a plan to let Liverpool’s midfield either tire out closing down or at least get cautioned to where Carrick/Scholes would have had time to control the game, that backfired and while great, he made the mistake of not changing up sooner than he did. We didn’t match their intensity, I don’t think we could have. It’s easy to say that due to the poor performance the decisions didn’t have an impact. An early yellow made it hard for Evra to really crunch into tackles – who is to say a yellow for Lucas would have let him be as exuberant. Could have let slow Carrick/Scholes get a foothold.
As for the Carra challenge on Carrick – look at Nev’s card in the CC. He took the ball clearly but, followed through and went high. Carra’s wasn’t high but, it was dangerous and over the top of the ball. You can be called for a foul even if you take the ball if it is dangerous or with intent, just like you can be called for a foul for not even touching a player.
As for the Owen incident – just need to look at the ABU pundits wishy-washing on how they can kind of see why a red wasn’t produced, the same ones that can definitively say that Vida’s card last year was nailed on.
We shouldn’t need the refs to win games against these lot. We should have come out with more desire but, we didn’t for whatever reason. We do need more aggressive players on the pitch taking charge of the team than chilled out Giggs or a lax Rio.
Hard to swallow loss. We need a good win against Rovers and then take it to Chelshit. Beating them will not only be good for us but, will make the supporters believe that we are good enough. Something a lot of people have lost faith in – that United is good enough to challenge with all the rest.
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