Oct 26
Liverpool outplay poor United
Let’s make no pretence about this: we were beaten fair and square by Liverpool. We can talk all we want about refereeing incompetence; true there were a few errors but the crucial ones were offset on the other side too. Nothing however disguises the fact that yesterday was a defeat that was fully deserved.
This makes it a hat trick of Liverpool wins and that’s what makes it hard to stomach.
I was a little more sympathetic towards our 4-1 defeat because I felt it was conceded as a result of a lot of individual errors, and didn’t exactly reflect our competitiveness and dominance on the pitch. Yesterday there was little scope for excuses.
I have to commend Ferguson for being brave in his tactics at the start though. He went with a 4-4-2 away from home. It’s great to see the man wanting to go for it with the current ‘mini-crisis’ at Liverpool. However, it seemed obvious as the match wore on — shockingly so — that our midfield weren’t up to it. It’s a recurring theme this season — and will remain true for a while, I’m sure — that our midfield needs muscle. Carrick has regressed this season [decent performances in Europe don't always cut it] and Scholes, with his age, cannot always be trusted to last 60 minutes against the bigger opposition. He’s blown hot and cold this season, and it’s not really his fault that he’s considered the first choice over other prospective members in the midfield.
What was a sad sight however, was to see a midfield of Lucas and Mascherano, not really in his best form so far, dominate the midfield, cutting off the supply lines to our strikers.
Which brings us to our attack. Rooney slaved away up front, but there’s little he could do if he doesn’t get the support he needs. Berbatov is a static player by nature. He needs mobility around him to work. And if that’s not there, then he’ll only inhibit our style. As much as the management will insist he’s fantastic, and classy, and that he doesn’t have to run always, there were moments when trying to bust a gut would have helped. We can make excuses for him and say he’s not getting help. Or we could say he’s not dynamic enough. Either of those points of view means he isn’t necessarily a fit for us. Yet. Berbatov does need help from the midfield, but he doesn’t make it easier either.
Giggs had an off day, and for a 36 year old, he is entitled to have off days. However Valencia on the other side played his heart out. I thought he was a bright spark, both in attack, and defensively. He was unfortunate to hit the bar from a tight angle.
Fernando Torres showed what a striker could do if he worked the channels tirelessly. He beat Ferdinand for pace clearly, but our defensive line had to share part of the blame. Two years ago, Rio had Torres firmly ensconced in his back pocket. The drop in Rio’s pace has been stark this season. However this is not to take any credit away from Torres’s goal.
The talking points undoubtedly will come down to refereeing. I was shocked how Lucas got away the whole match without a card, I won’t however make a big deal about Giggs being nudged in the area. Carragher’s tackle on Carrick was a dead-on penalty, but we could make the same case of Kuyt being brought down by Berbatov in the area. I thought Vidic’s first yellow was a bit soft although we’ve seen them given in the past, whilst Carragher should have seen red for bringing down Owen. None of them however was game changing, potentially. Arsenal fans, earlier in the season, would have been aggrieved at Fletcher getting away with a lot of fouls in that game, but we saw very little reason to complain then. I can’t see why we should now.
We’ve been Champions for three seasons in a row, and many more times in Ferguson’s tenure. And much of that is because we’ve made our own luck. Yesterday wasn’t even close to that day, and how we bounce back has a lot to do with how the players view yesterday’s defeat. The positives to take from yesterday, however, is everyone in the top four (or close to it, barring Chelsea) — Arsenal, Spurs, Man City — have dropped points. And that’s some portion of luck we’ll have to take and make full use of.
Related items from Red Rants:
- United Get the Job Done, Just
- Portsmouth Preview
- Can We Really Rely On Berbatov?
- Liverpool’s ‘Match-Fixing’, and the FA Cup Cockup
- Why Heinze Won’t Go to Liverpool
Tags: Match Reports
Opti (541)
Stephen (479)
RedDevilEddy (459)
Craig Mc (345)
Moscow is my heaven (272)
i thought saf made the subs far too late. i thought in one passage of play owen did more than berbatov did the whole game. nani lacks confidence. he had a good oppoertunity and his shot was without any venom it was a pass to the keeper. another time he didnt shoot. berbatov needs a new role in utd. maybe he should be played as a midfielder who directs the traffic or better still transferred in january. only some key signings in january will aallow utd to challenge this year. apert from 2 games i think w’ve been lucky. i agree this is unsual season with top teams dropping points.
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Its very simple in essence, O shea is the worlds most useless right back going forward, never made himself available for a single overlap.
Why Anderson did not start is beyond me, Scholes and Carrick are done for!!! Rather play Gibson, he would have done a much better jog, I aint sure about you guys but the thing that is really lacking is hunger and passion, look into the eyes of Scholes, Carrick, What do you see? Absolutely nothing.
Our problems with our forwards is simple, all of them play with their backs to goal, no direct running no movement, no eye for goal, they dont even shoot for heavens sake, bar Owen of course, our only real striker. I still wonder if Rooney should play as a CAM, he has good passing and vision and can improve his shooting , not to mention his work ethic.
Sir Alex can be frustrating at times, but what can we do. People talk about Hargreaves returning, but that wont help us, for fletcher does the job he does. All games are won in midfield unless you by pass the midfield by playing route one football. United lack a playmaker, its as simple as that. And we will continue to lose midfield battles without one.
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We lost fair and square. But I still agree that somme of the decisions that the referee didn’t give could as well have changed the game. Had Carragher’s trip on Carrick given, United would have taken the lead and this should have changed the destiny of the game. Had Carragher been red carded for his physical assault on Owen, the Reds could have panicked without him and probably United could have scored. SAF should explain why Anderson did not start. And even when he did the subs he decided to take Giggs into the centre instead of bringing on Anderson. However, the thing is how do we respond from here. We meet Blackburn this weekend at home before another Big clash away at Stamford Bridge.
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SAF made 2 critical errors in my view. He should have started with Nani on the left, and Giggs down the centre(where he has been the most effective in the last 2 seasons) with Scholes on the bench, and he left his substitutions way to late. We all critisize Nani for not really producing what he promises, but I believe that he needs an extended time in the team and he will deliver. We can’t expect Owen and Nani to miraculously turn the game around and win it for us in 15 minutes. We were very much below par and if we don’t sort out our midfield we will be in toruble this season…
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Bottom line for me is that Fergie is scared to play our future team, and is playing our past team. That has to be for one of two reasons:
1. The future team (Ando, Nani, Rafael, Evans) are not good enough
2. Fergie lacks the cajones
I’m not sure which would depress me more.
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I have had it upto here!(top of the head) with the fooking useless pieces of shit we are to call referees in this country. They are shit and the FA needs to stop handing out bans and actually fix the source of all the bans (fucked up refereeing) retrain the damn lot. Take them for a working holiday to the continent to see how the job is done properly. Bruno was fooking diving all over like a bitch he is and Evra paid the price for this prick falling over his own feet. I have watched it over and over again looking for that illusive touch from Evra and it just never comes yet the ref hands out a Yellow. Lucas tries to butcher everyone and the ref can’t see a problem. Bruno is an excellent striker but he’s far too much like the big bitch that is Ronaldo. Geniuses who act like fairies. Yes we played like chumps but when we did try to pick ourselves up the ref was there again kicking us back down. The guy was blatantley bias towards liverpool in his decisions and i wont hear otherwise. I dont follow blindly but i will not berate the team for feeling completely pissed off with the so called authority figures in the game. Why Fergie did not demand the fourth official step in to relieve the useless twat of his whistle i don’t know. All the player (barr liverpool ones) were voicing their objections to the useless one. Rooney even said something to the fourth official. Ref’s want respect??? well fooking do your job correctly and efficiently and you may just get it.(mistakes do happen but not that many in one game oh wait chelsea vs barca ok doesn’t happen that often) continue as you are and you can go fook yourselves!! COngrats to Liverpool well faught and deserved the win even with a little FA intervention. Lucas must have pissed himself after the game, all those fouls and not 1 card, yes fletch got away with a lot but his fouls weren’t as bad nor as blatant. The Ref gave the bare minimum in cards to Liverpool. Carragher should have seen red, Mascherano (spelling?) Got his first yellow deservedly and because the Ref felt the pressure to actually book a liverpool player and then His second yellow?? It should have been a straight red not just a Yellow to result in a red. A second yellow clears his slate after a ban but a red would mean a ban and a yellow still on the slate. I was this particular ref’s first big 4 game. What the hell were they thinking giving him this game, far too much rivalry. Arsenal vs Liv/Man utd would have been the better option, less intense.
rant over.
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A well written and honest post.
United were really poor yesterday, lacked ideas and inspiration and seemed sluggish from the start, except for a final 10 minute burst. VDS had a decent game in the nets and Valencia continues to look like a reasonable buy, I’m particularly please that he’s started having a crack at goal and on another day he would have scored. With the exception of the admittedly excellent Torres, Liverpool played like a team struggling to escape the bottom half of the league, they were full of battling spirit, closed United down and worked hard, but they are a poor team really and the fact that United couldn’t rip them to pieces is bloody annoying to say the least.
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@Miguel: Agree. Giggs didnt just have an off day, he just cant cut it any more down the wings. He should of played in a central role.
What pisses me off the most about yesterday and for quite some time now is that there is no real passion in this team. Some players have a bit but not nearly enough. Liverpool were desperate, absolutely desperate to win yesterday but utd weren’t. Why? That is twice already this season were we have surrendered the lead at the top when we should easily have extended it. No drive, no bite, no anything from that horrible midfield.
People have mentioned that the return of hargreaves will help and I agree to some extent but he is not the answer to our problem(s).
Also I fear this new kid Ljaji? is being hyped up too much. He could be fantastic but the reality is that he’l be a bit part player and will be heavily rotated in a squad full of mediocre midfielders.
I also fear for this kid. He seems to have a lot of talent and I’m not to sure if the current culture at utd might be right for him. I know I’ll get ridiculed for that one but take for example Anderson. He probably came to united believing he had made it and rightly so and worked his socks off to impress and had a fantastic first season. But he hasn’t replicated that following that great start. It has to be the sissy, pampered lifestyle that this club gives its players. They have made it and certainly feel they do not have to put in the hard work any more. With Anderson it has been well noted that he barely puts the effort in at training.
This pampered lifestyle makes me cringe. Evra never shuts the fuck up about it. How they have a personal assistant to help them change, for example, a flat tire and a light bulb. I dont know how true these stories are but I wouldn’t be fucking surprised. Why I should expect these players, especially in midfield, to even make an effort – to tackle, to hussle, to attempt to play some kind of football – when they cant even change a light bulb is beyond me.
Ferdinand’s mind is not 100% with united. With producing movies and running his wank online mag how can it be? I’m not doubting his commitment to this club but his mind is wandering in more directions than it usually is.
I don’t think we’l be in too bad a position come the end of the season though but it will be a season of boring, negative football. We’l certainly not finish outside the top four but fergie needs to get his head sorted and be more aggressive if he wants to actually win trophies.
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Nani is absolutly terrible.. Its crazy how he is playing at this level, I am really sick of hearing people saying “give him a chance” , this is propessional football where these guys make tens of thousands of pounds a week. Imaging being hired by a huge company with a salery of 50 grand a week and you came into work one day and made a bit of an effort and the next you just couldnt be botherd. I am sick of paying for these idiots through expensive tv subscriptions . This united team is lacking big time this year and they need a belt of reality to get things moving again. Even rooneys workrate was poor in my view. Carrick , Nani, Scholes, are all not up to it at this level.
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@mick: Dude, Nani played for 20 min! And yeah, he can be frustrating but, the weird and the unfair thing is the new guy Valencia is getting more games than him. And now Valencia seems to be doing well. What you are saying would be fair if Nani was played consistently. Agree with you about Carrick though. I was never a big fan of his play. It was traumatizing to see Scholes on the pitch even when we were 1 goal down.
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Simply a great performance. No way Carragher should have seen red either.
Great pics from the game here, btw – http://tinyurl.com/yjvnguc
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We were def beaten by the better team on the day. We were just not hungry enough. Even Rooney didnt seem up for it. And dont think we can really have any complaints about the ref. I think what we need to do is sell Nani first thing in january and buy big during the window. We need to get players in who havent won the premier league yet and are hungry to do so. We should look to spend some of the ronaldo money. And I know this is a long shot but I read in the (Irish) Sunday Tribune an interview with Messi and he said if he had the choice to play with any other player on the planet it would be Wayne Rooney. But even if we could convince him to come, barca put a €300 Million buy out clause in his last contract if any club wants to buy him.
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I felt this loss was coming, I had a gut feeling about it, I’ll from today trust my 6th sense more and in future I’ll write draft rants so when we loose I’ll just copy paste my comments on here. I’t doesn’t matter but whenever we loose, its because of the midfield and scholes is in it 90% of the time.
Fergie should just quit, yeah I said it, it had to be said. He is wrong too many times for my liking, and the frequency at which he errs in his decisions is increasing with each passing week. He has never been a master tactician but he would get at least 10 right before getting 1 wrong. these days its 1 right 1 wrong and he never seems to get it into his thick skull that some of his golden boys are over the hill has-beens. He should be sacked by the glazers and take scholes with him, I’m so fucking tired of seeing scholes in our line up I think I’ll one day hit my T.V. screen. Where are the repercussions for crazy behavior, that red card was probably applauded by fergie. Paul fuckin scholes is officially dead to me, I will never think of him as a united great and I will use his poor play over the last two years as ammunition. How a player can’t realize that his continued involvement is hurting the club baffles me. He should quit club football and join coaching.
This is a shite team, a team not worth the time I give it every week, How I miss ronny, how I wish it’s all been a long unwinding dream and I will wake up tomorrow and find ronnie is still with us. But alas, that that little pinch just proved that my lovely united has gone from world beaters 16 months ago to a mid-table team.
For all you glass half-full types, saying it’s not so bad I want to point out two things, reading were once number two in the EPL,hell even hull were table toppers at some point yet by the end of the season they were struggling for relegation. Man united has only hard one convincing performance this season, against spurs. We are only number two because the other teams have decided not to play to their strengths. Arsenal basically had a field day with us at OT, they deserved to win that game, but were unfortunate, we rode our luck and got a shaky decision and an own goal from a player who was under no pressure what so ever. Arsenal ran rings around us, all they needed to do is get their act together and learn to finish off teams and united would have fallen to the teens.
Then came man city, who seemed to score at will against our defense, say what you will about city but if tevez had scored that half time goal, it might have been curtains for united. City may still be coming to terms with new money and need to build a mentality as champions and then united will be in trouble. Then came sunderland, and a mid table team with no wealth gave us a proper run for our money and only a lucky own goal gave us an undeserved point.
Even wigan who we beat 5-0 had given us a challenge in the first half, but succumbed in the second, their manager probably told them to play for the draw and the stopped attacking and thus allowing us a chance to win it. Birmingham was another example where we almost drew, bolton almost took our two goal advantage and stuck it in our assess, infact by the end of that match it wasnt united vs bolton, it was QPR vs bolton. A weakened liverpool who hadn’t won for the last 4 matches somehow managed to completely outplay and out muscle us in midfield and that is without their midfield general, if gerald was playing it would have been 4-0.
Lets face it folks we have been very very veeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrryyyyy lucky to find ourselves in the position we are in right now. Once this teams get their acts together as normally happens in november, united will be revealed to be the fraudsters they are, and i can now list teams i realistically think can leapfrog united,
Arsenal, liverpool,mancity,villa, and westham. If my worst dreams were to come true we would find ourselves battling for 5th and 6th position.
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@ Spizzy – I don’t disagree with everything you’re saying, but then you go and ruin it by saying we’ll finish behind West Ham. I mean, that’s the same West Ham with no money and sitting in the relegation places?
I think (as always) everyone is knee jerking. If Valencia scores instead of hitting the crossbar we’re all patting ourselves on the back saying how we went to one of the hardest places to play in Europe and came away with a draw, having contained a desperate team and restricted them one or two decent chances in their backyard.
Yes our two man slow-ass midfield was a bit overrun by the foul happy hyperactive heroes Lucas and Macherano. And regardless of that, we still didn’t concede until someone pitched a ball behind our defense to let the really fast guy onto. They then set up the bus and parked it, eventually scoring in the final seconds when we’d essentially said screw it to defense.
I don’t see it as that different to the Burnley game. I really don’t. On another day we get that slice of luck and we get a draw or a win.
We’ll never dominate every match, and even less so against the other big 4 teams. I thought Scholes and Giggs in the same midfield, with O’Shea and Carrick also on the pitch was a massive, MASSIVE mistake, because it basically means we have no pace and no pressure on defense. Everytime Fergie does this, I figure he’ll learn, but so far, no good.
We have problems everywhere on the pitch, but so do almost all other teams. We’re hypercritical of Rio and Vida for getting beaten by the best centre forward in the world, scoring off of his one shot in 60 minutes. If his shot isn’t perfect (which it was) then VDS saves and no one has a freak out.
Personally, I thought we were drawn down to Liverpool’s dire level of football, and were beaten due to a single moment of brilliance by a brilliant player. Considering how often that was our winning formula, I can’t be too bitter about it.
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To my opinion i think utd was lacking a playmaker in the midfield we need a player like david silva a player that can distribute pass and can creat chances for stricker to score and a left wing player that can disturb defenders not that on able to improve player like nani,let put yesterday match behind us and think of our next match
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@Beachryan: In order to paint a picture clearly you sometimes need to use outrageous colors, They held arsenal and this league is pretty closely knight, all the top ten teams are within a win of each other. This over reliance on others mistakes is what got us the trophy last season. It’s crazy to think that it will happen again this season. We need to start winning and ensuring that we are not top of the table due to a mistake by chelsea but because we beat our opponents. This team is incapable of that, we are relying heavily on the misfortune of other stronger teams, and most of, no in fact all the top three clubs have proven to be stronger than united.The guise that is our current league position, second, is slowly being unveiled and you will soon see how mediocre this team is, wait for the away game at chelsea, when the old geezer is sure to be cautious, what with yesterdays result. United will field a 5 man midfield, and you will see how a chelsea 4 man midfield will destroy us. Chelsea are playing like possessed mad men and are attacking like there is no tomorrow, i saw it on the champions league and the weekend, they are actually playing man united football. Thats how far things have changed, chelsea will show united how to play united football.
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Bad team selection, bad performance, bad refereeing, but still we are only 2 points behind Chelsea if we beat them on November 7th all will have been forgotten lets just move on
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@Beachryan: i agree with your observation and wish he would play the kids we were promised as the reason we werent bringing in the cavalry during the transfer window.
But im not sure that its cowardice as much as it is wanting to push them to take a spot from the oldies and not just giving a starting spot away.
This should play its self out over the course of the season with the oldies phased out and the kids that are going to make it blooded in. I think it could happen faster if it were up to the fans and this game may cause it to happen faster in fergi’s head as well.
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I think we should all rightly fear the Chelsea game, as they’re undeniably the strongest squad in the premier league. Then again, they’ve been the strongest squad in the premier league for the past 6 years, but we’ve won three titles in that time.
We probably have the second best squad in the league, along with the best group of youngsters coming through. We have a great manager, but not the best tactician. We’re currently playing disjointed football, which isn’t changing because every single match a new XI is fielded. I really liked Fergie’s idea of a few years ago – where he created essentially a 4-2-4 where any of the front 4 could play in any position – but he seems to have forgotten to leave the back 6 alone. And that includes the midfield pairing.
No other team in the league is rotating their central pairing as much as we are. And I can’t work out why. It’s not like playing Scholes and Carrick together for the 15th time is going to yield some new revelation. I liked it more when we seemed to at least have 2 sets of partnerships, and they stayed fixed (Ando/Fletcher Scholes/Carrick) or similar. Fergie just seems to have abandoned alot of the principles that got us where we are.
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@Tommy: forget about messi mate and nani should stay in this team he is a goal scorer and we are short of them at the moment.
now carick+cash is ripe for a swap with Valencia(the club not the player) for silva. and with hargo coming back i think that should be sufficient to fight for silverware this year. but i think we will wait till next season to pick up a new play maker.
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@spizzy: too many ifs and buts in that for me i see united 2points adrift from the only team that will win this year besides united. and i fully expect United to be top again this season and we certainly wont finish below citeh or arssnhole(liverfool already out of the equation). Champions or runners up for united fact.
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@Beachryan: +1 nice post they did bring us down to their “dire level” as we were forced to kick them back or be kicked off the park and we, it seems, were the only ones visible to the rookie ref. Had we gotten one of the early 50 50 calls instead of none… the game would have looked alot different wit united wining a pen early and carriger being sent off.
but no excuses fair play to torres taking the game by the neck. Just trying to bring some mist to the glasses that are half empty
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i dont understand the dig at nani. two soft tosses of shots at reina is what you guys are mad about i’m assuming. at least he was a threat…he was very hungry out there especially compared to the rest of the team. you can’t expect him to come in with 20 left and impact the game when the rest of the team is playing so poorly. you can act like he’s gotten his fair shake and his time but he hasn’t. i think he should’ve started on the left with giggs sitting tucked in next to him so they could help each other. valencia wasn’t sparkling yesterday either i don’t see why he gets a pass. he did hit the one off the bar but other than that i wasn’t impressed.
carrick is about done i think. he’s not good enough for games against the big fish. i think scholes is in the same boat, he can get runs out against lesser opp.
anderson needs to be in for carrick i think, at least he’s a chaser and would’ve disrupted it. if everyone was fit i’d of liked to see him and fletch in there because they are closing down maniacs full of running and chasing and that’s really where we got outplayed yesterday by mascherano and lucas of all people.
i can’t really fault the 2 strikers that much as their service was poor and i felt like they would just hoof it up to rooney and berba with very little space while they were isolated and expect them to perform a magic trick and get by 2-3 guys on their own.
john o’shea turned in another turd i thought. his passing is awful, his runs were ill timed and poorly thought out. vidic and ferdinand are either complacent, past it, or something. i think evans needs to step in for one of them alot more this season and really learn the trade at the top level.
brighter spots: evra played a normal game for him i thought, he did his job. ryan giggs, especially when he was in the middle tried to control the game and actually played with thought and grit, edwin van der sar was a beast for us and if foster was in it would’ve been alot worse.
we always turn in games like this and still manage to do damn well for ourselves every year. yea it’s disappointing as all hell but at the same time i have faith in the team and like the squad when everyone’s fit
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Why isnt Obertan in the team for tomorrow??
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I agree with you on out-played BUT…
“dead-on penalty” and “None of [the ref's decision] however [were] game changing, potentially” I disagree with.
If mascherano had been penalized for his foul on Carrick and a penalty awared (+yellow card) then the game would have been VERY different. This would be due to the fact the Liverpool’s bench is void of talent.
It would have been VERY different…
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@[OPTI]Madschester United: I think you meant Carragher’s tackle.
And if Berbatov was penalised for bringing down Kuyt in the area the game would be different too. If my aunt had balls, and things like that.
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@Miguel: Agreed.
Nani is not the type of player to turn the game around for us, he needs to grow as a player and this 10-20 min bursts of games aren’t doing it. I think Giggs in the middle would have been more effective than Scholes, he is more capable of taking players on and driving into the heart of a defense. SAF said that we didn’t have enough penetration. What do you expect with a pairing like Carrick and Scholes, neither are the type to take the ball from midfield and go through players. Giggs or Anderson would have.
Hindsight is great and best thing I can hope is from now SAF realizes, you can’t play Scholes and Carrick in these games together. We’ll get annihilated by any midfield that is really up for it (and a ref that will let them foul away).
My only fear is I think SAF is going to go 4-5-1 for Chelski. If Fletcher is fit, he should go with Nani, Fletcher, Anderson, Valencia for a midfield and bring on Giggs/Scholes/Owen to turn the games around. Bring on the players with the experience like at Stoke if things aren’t going well, in mean time let our youth continue to try develop.
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nice write up, interesting how you did not talk about vidic’s defending in general against pool.
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Lets look at a few things? Do yoi actually watch the full game and have an understanding of football? Your assessment of Berbatov is so far wide of the mark its embarassing. How can you say that Berbatov is static, doesnt move about etc? He was probably our onloy decent player on the pitch yesterday, picking up the ball, holding it up and laying off others. The substitution of Berbatov over Rooney was baffling given Waynes contribution yesterday.
The problem stems from the midfield, first Carrick, Scholes and Giggs cannot play together in the big games, they lack energy, drive and a get in your face attitude. Its all well and good saying Gigs has had an off day, but that was the first real test of the season yesterday. Anderson and Fletcher were needed, so Anderson had to start.
The right back slot is a worry, O’Shea doesnt offer anything in support to the winger, a problme that Ronaldo was often seen jesturing at O’shea about.
As for key decisions. One, it was never a penalty, as Carragher played the ball from Carrick, you only have to see the reaction of the Utd players around to see that. two, Carrghers pulling of Owen was not a red card offence, Owen was not going owards goal and neither was the ball and two players were breaking into the box to cover if Owen would have picked up the ball.
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@gator: I’m gonna say it again, players like Ince, Mcclair, Hughes and Robson were moved on while still good players, and Scholes, Giggs, Neville, Butt and Beckham were thrown in at the deep end. That’s how they developed into the players they are. Anderson and Nani are never going to develop at United while playing once every 2 weeks.
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@strider: Vidic = middling to poor. Sometimes during a match report you do end up leaving things out intentionally or inadvertently because there will usually be several talking points.
I actually wanted to throw in a flippant remark about there being a get-out clause in Vida’s contract when we play Liverpool but it got left out amidst all the other stuff.
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@Tufty: We obviously disagree on so many points, but since you started off with the premise that I do not understand football, nothing I’m going to say is going to make any sense to you eh?
PS: regarding the ref decisions, whichever way you look at it, they weren’t important enough to have influenced the outcome. So there’s no debate.
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I do agree with Tufty that Fergie needs to blood these youngsters.
This is controversial, but I think Giggs is a luxury player, who may actually be hurting us over 90 minutes, even the way he plays this season. I mean, he misplaces more passes than anyone else on the team, doesn’t offer anything defensively and can understandably only run about half of the time. Yes, he occasionally plays a killer ball and does get his fair share of assists, but at what cost?
Watching the match yesterday – Valencia was always double or tripled marked anytime we countered because Liverpool knew that Giggs wouldn’t be an option, as he wasn’t able to burst forward. They also knew that they could move the RB into the middle on crosses, because similarly Giggsy wasn’t busting a gut to get on the end of things coming from the right, he generally just plodded around on the left side of the centre circle.
He’s a legend, and can still jink and provide an outside of the boot pass that makes me feel a little bit of sunshine inside. But, do these one or two contributions really outweigh the benefits of, say, a Nani for 90 minutes?
And it might be alright if you played Giggs along with two hardworking other midfielders like Park and Anderson to make up the difference, but throwing Scholes on too basically had us playing with 9 men for some of the match.
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Actually, following on with that a team consisting of Giggs, Scholes, O’Shea, Carrick and Berbatov – is that the single least hustling team we’ve ever fielded?
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The real problem yesterday was the absence of Fletcher and the poor fitness of Rio and Rooney. If Rio and Rooney had been fully fit and Fletcher had shored up midfield I think we would have got a draw. Like RedRanter said other teams have dropped points and it is not unreasonable to lose an away game against a big team so long as we beat them in the return fixture. Liverpool are also a cup team and can beat anyone in the world on their day.
Having said that we do have problems that need addressing:
1. Fergie’s cautious approach does not work now that our defence has lost its invincibility and when we concede against a good team we are unable to get back into the game. Going forward we are pretty predictable and a good team can stop us in our tracks. Luckily most Premier League teams are so weak that even playing cautious unimaginative football we still end up winning. But in Europe and against the other teams in the big four it is going to cost us
2. Forget talk about this being a transition year. We are just the same team minus Ronaldo. We have a bunch of promising teenagers but I do not see them getting many games this season, and while Nani and Anderson were touted as the long term replacements for Giggs and Scholes they aren’t getting any games and to be honest even when they do get games they do little to convince anyone they deserve to be on the team.
3. This was another big game we flopped in. You can win a league title while losing big games. But I do not fancy our chances at all in Europe this season. Liverpool rose to the occasion and we failed to show up AGAIN
4. Frankly our football does not excite me at all. Two seasons ago we played wonderful football. Last season we played rubbish football but at least Ronaldo provided entertainment value. This season it is just boring.
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@Beachryan: Actually we have always had the best squad but not the best starting eleven. There is a difference. Over the past five years i would not put any team up against ours for depth. It’s the lack of quality in some of our starters and the increasing necessity to rotate that has cost us dearly.
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Nice article RR. Yes you are right, we agree on everything on there. It’s become a moment of true crisis at Old Trafford but I can just see the Gaffer in a press conference now storm out after being told there is a crisis or at least saying in his typical flippant way, “What crisis? We lost one match, life goes on.” And I have to say this attitude to the media and basically to all the supporters is beginning to piss me off supremely. Ye she has to show strength and to avoid the team getting down but the man has stopped being honest and is kissing the ass of the owners when they in turn are betraying his chances at winning silverware.
I don’t know mate but the more I look at things the more I feel there is going to be a regime change after this season. He looks sick and tired and that he just doesn’t care anymore. Nobody seems to care that with ten minutes left in the game and down 0-1 he is seen sitting on his hands and chewing his gum like we are up 4-0. I just have a major problem with this because the game is an an emotional game and requires energy and passion. How do you expect to convey those demands on players when you yourself look like you are overdue for your aftenoon nap time?
3 straight losses to Liverpool is just more than i can stomach and yet, to Fergie, it’s just another day at the beach. To Hell with his calmness and his experience and coolness under pressure. It’s time he took the hairdryer out and used it on himself. Using it on the player might help but then again, lets face it, they just aren’t that fucking good. But he is better than this and he needs to up his game if he expects the team to do so. And if he can’t then he knows what he must do. Move aside for a younger and hungrier man to take over. I am tired of United and it’s aura of geriatrics that is bringing this club down. I am al for playing youngsters and giving them a chance but not at the risk of killing off the season. No I want quality players bought for this club and I want tactics and squad selections that will bring out all the positives and all the attacking flair out of this team. Enough of this seniors home drudgery and boredom we have had to endure for two seasons now. This team needs an injection of new blood and an injection of adrenaline because right now we are a team moving around on walkers.
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“Fair and square”?
Don’t think so.
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@Scott the Red: We can make the arguments about referee inconsistencies, but I think we stunk.
Guess we’ll have to disagree.
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First of all, where the hell are all the regulars? The majority of post are coming from folks I’ve never seen before?
Second I agree with RedRanter that we lost fair and square, anyone trying to blame the refs for our loss is delusional. Even fergie admitted we deserved to lose.
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@Scott the Red: “fair and square” “I don’t think do”
well that’s a fucking suprise, the spinmaster himself thinks we were cheated out of a result. Look, I know your a passionate United fan but would it kill you to be objective once in a while? Im a united fan and even I cringe sometimes at the pieces you write.
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@Johnsom33: The ref was a disgrace and he played a big part in helpingus never get a foothold on the game. When every marginal call is going against you and every blatant foul by them is not being called, especially two penalty claims, then it does affect a team’s performance. Still, you are right, the refs cannot take a lot of the blame for this game because we were really that poor from the get got. The players and Fergie have to take the most blame because they let a very average team without Gerrard and with Lukas Leiva in midfield totally outclass us and dominate us. It was a shameful display by our team but Fergie’s current standing with officials isn’t helping us out in games. And he has nobody to blame but himself and that big fat trap of his that can’t shut up when opening serves no positive purpose.
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@Traverse: You have a point. Evans, for example would not have developed to the player he is now without an extended run filling in for Rio and Vidic.
If we are to rebuild, we need to tear down the old ruins first. That would mean not playing the golden oldies all the time!!
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@Johnsom33: When you search high and low for a silver lining and still can’t find one, it’s a good bet to blame the ref!!
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1 – It wasnt a pen. Carrgher touched the ball.
2- It wasnt a sending off. Carragher was not the last man as Owen was not going towards goal and there were markers covering back.
If for example Carragher did get sent off, Liverpool would have thrown another centre back on and with 2 mins of normal time left and 5 mins of added time, the impact would have been minimal.
Its easy to blame a ref, but the blame lies with the starting X1 and the lack of impact substitutions. We didnt look lively in the last 3rd till Owen came on. Liverpool had more desire all over the park and had the better chances, did Reina actually have a save to make?
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@Tufty: If you’re addressing me, here’s what I have to say:
I have not pinned the defeat on the ref. Nowhere have I done that. I said even if they were actually pens or fouls they cannot be the reason for our defeat. Whilst I saw Carragher’s tackle on Carrick as a penalty, I clearly said it’s immaterial to the outcome of the match. I also said we got the rub of the green against Arsenal when Fletcher went scot free, so I am not making excuses about the refereeing.
I repeat what I’ve said in my opening line: that we lost the game fair and square. So I don’t see why debating the refereeing has any point here, because which ever way you make the argument, it doesn’t change the bigger issue — that we deservedly lost the match, refereeing inconsistency or not.
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@Beachryan: Agree.
True, we were second best, but this one game does not equate to us failing our season.
Agree that Valencia scoring would have had most people satisfied, Owen could have been nearly one on one in the dying minutes, Nani had a good shot saved (he could also have teed Owen in for a clear opportunity)
The season is still long.
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An interesting stat I just dug up.
Paul Scholes has started 8 out of our 12 games this season, and was subbed in on another. Consider that he was ineligible for one of the other 3 games through suspension and that is an astonishing amount of appearances for someone his age.
SAF had made a point of asking the MF’ers to contribute to the goal scoring this year. Scholes’ contribution…… 1 goal!!
Anyone else think that Scholes needs a long, well deserved rest!
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@Tufty: roony and nani required saves
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Skim reading a bit of yesterday’s liverpool thread, and it seems that Berba-bashing is once agai on the cards.
For the past 4 or 5 games he was lauded by many pure class, one of our better players since the start of the season with Giggs and Fletcher…
Yesterday against liverpool we lost the battle of midfield and everytime we lose this battle, Berbatov is made the scapegoat of our poor performace.
Yes, his performance was far from spectacular yesterday, but I still notice the improvement in that 1. He’s still more involved in the game than he would be compared to last year; 2. He starts to voice his frustration – a sign that he demands good service and not shy to communicate with his teammates…
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