Oct 30
Man Utd 2-0 West Ham: United Sleepwalk Past Hammers
What I saw yesterday was not too different to what I’ve seen from United this season, as a whole. There are periods where the lads go on a rampage and verge on the unplayable. There are other periods where they just couldn’t give a toss and think it’s another routine training session.
So, first half: exhilarating. Second half: zzzz
It’s really hard to say how good we were when the opposition looked quite ordinary. So it’s not quite so easy to say how good we were. So it’s a better time to reflect on some of the individual performances.
On Berbatov, and what else could one say other than that he is on his way towards the higher echelons of pure geniuses who’ve graced the Old Trafford turf. His composure in the area reminds one of Bergkamp (despite his being a part of that successful Arsenal side, one would have to concede that he was pure class). And how about that piece of skill that set up Ronaldo? How about it really? Did it really happen? Or was it an illusion despite the best efforts of modern television to prove you otherwise?
His nonchalance in celebrations goes with the nature of his game. Everything comes so naturally and easily to him. Ronaldo’s tricks and raw pace are a treat, Rooney’s energy and commitment is hard to match, but Berbatov just makes your jaw drop. Full stop. And it’s just not his first touch, but his general footballing brain and decision making. All those attributes, when they come off at once, make him look so awesome that it’s scary.
Tevez didn’t really set the stage on fire, but then again, he needs a longer run of games.
Ronaldo looked much more like the one that went on a rampage last season. His instinctive shot for the first goal is what you want from your star player. Nani, at times looked inventive, and at times fell victim to his most obvious shortcoming — a lack of decision making ability. Anderson impressed in spurts but generally bossed a feeble midfield that didn’t really test him.
Tomasz Kuszczack had hardly needed to do anything and he might have as well set up his bed and gone to sleep.
But, as Fergie conceded, they were far too relaxed in the second half and looked like they wanted to give West Ham a chance to get back into the game so that they could feel challenged. I honestly don’t understand why they’ve been doing this all season.
Rooney did a lot when he came on as would be expected and Michael Carrick made his much awaited return from injury. Which is always great news. The clock ticked down, and the match ended in what turned out a very one-sided affair — something that was, justifiably, overshadowed by the outstanding North London derby. Oh yes, isn’t it nice to see Arsenal drop some more points! If only had Portsmouth held their nerve against the dippers and Hull continued their over achievement against Chelsea. Oh well… you can’t have everything, can you?
Related items from Red Rants:
- West Ham v Man Utd: Preview
- West Ham v Man Utd: Live
- Tevez Update: Is a Solution Finally In Sight?
- West Ham United vs Manchester United: Match Preview
- Manchester United vs West Ham: Preview
Tags: Match Reports
Opti (541)
Stephen (479)
RedDevilEddy (459)
Craig Mc (345)
Moscow is my heaven (272)
Only the Chelski win ruined some of my day. Lets think of it. Liverpool and Arsenal lost. Arsenal even lost Adebayor, Sagna, Gallas and Walcott to injuries, and Robin van Persie to a red card. Liverpool lost to and OG and a 90 minute match winner. I mean, can it be a better way to lose?!
And we won a highly entertaining game and played some really godd football. Id take a 4-3 result over a 1-1 draw ala Everton or a 1-0 win ala Liverpool vs Chelski. This was an entertaining match and we won! It was 7 goals scored, Ronny scored 2 and we had two unusual goalscorers too- Vidic and Carrick. Vidic usually gets 1 or 2 goals a season and Carrick only get 3 or 4. What a weekend!
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@RedDevilEddy: What happened to Gallas? I thought he just got dropped?
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@Craig Mc: You know, I was also advocating for a holding midfielder, ala keano, but looking at it prospectively, we do have the players to overcome our recent 2nd half syndrome… let’s first look at our midfield prospects:
Ando
Carrick
Fletch
Giggs
Hargo
O’shea
Rodrigo
Scholes
Like someone said earlier, we usually employ a 4-2-4 fluid formation with two central mids and maybe one of them being a bit more defensive minded. This has always worked(last two seasons), the main reason being Carrick. He controls and slows the pace of the game down with his passing and most unnoticeable, his interceptions. He doesn’t do crunching tackles, but he does timely interceptions, Rio style. Fletcher is another player who has recently been adopting this ‘Carrick’ role in our team, with excellence I might add, but can’t seem to keep it up for 90 as of yet (one of the reasons we have been excellent in 1st half but jaded in 2nd); probably why Fergie is resting him a bit more recently. Also, Rodrigo has shown to have this style too and has real promise.
When we do not play our 4-2-4, we play a more diamond formation, with a holding midfielder. This is usually employed in Europe, against the big four or when we need to close the game down. So, realistically, we don’t play with a holding player a lot and as we already have three players who can do that for us (Hargo, Fletch, O’shea), it is not entirely urgent we get another.
If you noticed, when Carrick was playing today, the tempo and balance of the game was in our favor. Although he was a bit rusty, he was able to prise some control in midfield. That’s what we were missing. Obviously, as he was tiring, his grasp began too fade too, add that to the substitutions (Giggs for Carrick??? meaning a tired Ando had to play defensive mid???) and Hull had no choice but to dominate midfield in the latter stages (That’s why Fergie brought on O’shea).
Against Celtic, Fletcher will be our holding player and probably against Arsenal too. After those two big games, we can resume our usual 2 centre mids style and only have to worry about bringing on a holding player if carrick tires and we desperately need extra steel/energy in midfield.
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Is anyone worried about Chelsea’s goal-difference? +23 to our +11… This is not good if we have a close race…
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@JB: Spot on. I think it often appears we are getting steamrolled in the middle due to easily giving away possession going forward. We usually have one of our fullbacks bombing forward in support of the move, so then when it breaks down we are left short, so one of the CMs has to go cover for the full back or just try and slow down the attack and wait for the rest of the players to back in position. And I must say, it doesn’t help when our players lose the ball easily, then three or four of them all look to the heavens or shake their heads or bitch and moan at each other. That leaves the CMs trying to clean up for them and doing defensive jobs for others
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@Madchester United: Chelsea is the team to fear this season, in all competitions. They are a team, pissed off, hungry and under great mentoring, ready to take every trophy possible. These players are on a mission, and their demolishing of inferior opponents proves it.
United could have been boasting similar goal records, but like Fergie said, we are wasting a lot of chances, plus we have still not seemed to get to a 100%. I know a team is the sum of all it parts, but if some key players are struggling for fitness, it doesn’t mean other areas should be suffering, especially our defense. We were putting our poor defensive showings to key players missing in midfield and attack but it’s not like all our conceded goals have come from counters or midfield pressure, they’ve mostly been from set plays and defensive errors/lapses.
Maybe we need to shake this ‘poor starters’ tag from the team as it can develop into a extended run of under par performances and then we all fall back to that excuse. By now, our defense should have re-established it’s chemistry and not be conceding 3 goals a game, especially at home and we should be more clinical in front of goal. Chelsea are not gonna wait for us, the first whistle of the season was blown well over two months ago… by now, we should be at a 100%
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Rooney will be looking to score his 100th ‘Club’ career goal and Ronaldo would be looking to score his 100th ‘United’ career goal. Anyone care to bet who’s gonna reach their respective milestones first?
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Because i want to know if any one can get the third question right, and because im a sad old git(
), im going to post my trivia again:
what sport did giggs use to play before joining man city?
Who rejected us to go to a rival club? (there where many hehe, guess which one)
which player has a CL medal but never played in the CL?
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@Gabriel: got to be ronaldo he’s on form right now.
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I have seen this dozens and dozens of times in hockey. A player is one goal away from a milestone like 299, 399, 499 etc and then he gets caught up in trying to score that goal. The problem is they press harder than they should and they struggle to get that goal or that albatross of their shoulder. It can be a real jinx. Hopefully he gets it in his next game because the longer it takes, the more it’s going to screw him up mentally.
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Is the third one Bobby Charlton, or Peter Kenyon I suppose?
On a side note, a United fan brought up a good point that when we were 4-1 up Carrick got taken off and we conceded 2 goals after that, that must show the doubters how important he is to us defensively?
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@dan(u-ol): Greening?
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@dan(u-ol):
yeah, my money’s on Ronaldo too… Rooney always comes up with something spectacular for special occasions and I’m sure Celtic park or Emirates will be where he gets that goal and I hope it’s a good one. 
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@Matthew:
You know what we lacke in midfield? We lack a general. If we had that bit of composure in the midfield that Hargreaves or Scholes provide, all these goals against would be stopped. COME ON HARGO! Fix that DAMN knee!
Berba was class though!
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@Conor: Conor, if your thought Carrick was important to us defensively today, then you were watching a different game to me obviously. Carrick is a good player, but he is no midfield General – sorry, and coming back from injury, and not yet fit, he had an average game today. He lost the ball a lot bro. I hope you watch the game back on mutv, to see what I mean. I know I will be accused of bias because I am a Nani fan, but we were hammered down the right side after he was subbed. We need a MF General, most people realise this.
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@Gabriel: What game were you watching Bro, Carrick kept losing possession, even what should have been the easy passes. He is not match fit, so I am willing to make allowances, but IMO we were fortunate in quite a few matches last season, and I don’t think Carrick is a force in midfield. He has a fantastic eye for a pass, but we have so many players of that ILK. I want a midfield General, who SHOWS COMPOSURE when we are under the cosh. That is just me though. Lets wait and see if you are all right, but I’d wager a bet, we are going to be seeing more and more of the onslaughts we have experienced the last few games. The opposition know our achilles heel, make no mistake about it.
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@Conor: Unjustifiably complaining my arse. Why should we be rejoicing because the arse and scouse didn’t do well today. That’s for their fans to complain and bitch about. We are talking about the blatently bloody obvious FLAWS in our own game, which are happening all too frequently lately. It isn’t fickle its HONEST, and you’ll never be able to stop fans from saying when we think as RR does that a lot of the cracks are showing that were appearing towards the last quarter of last season. We need to strengthen our midfield, that is all we are saying .
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I’m surprised to say this, but Chelsea are playing beautiful football at the moment!! I was smiling while watching their match against Sunderland and actually wished they scored more, they were that good!!! Frank Lampard is on fire and is easily the best midfielder in the country right now. He is basically a supporting striker, always in and around the box… 100 goals in the prem for him now, record speaks for itself.
This season’s gonna be very interesting, we’re definitely gonna meet Chelsea in various competitions, hopefully they’re all in the finals
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@JB: Jb, I admire your optimism mate, I really do. Yet if we had won our games against L’fool, Chelski and Everton in which we led and should have won, then we would be ahead by ? 4 points or more. And once again, we are depending mostly on Ronnie – right?.
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@Craig Mc: Carrick had the second best passing completion rate in the team at 86%, just behind Berbatov. I’m not sure where you are getting all these simple misplaced passes from. There were a couple of rusty passes but nothing of major note.
As for the midfield general, any suggestions as to where we find one? It’s all well and good saying we need what is effectively another Roy Keane but it is an all together a different matter trying to find him.
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@Red Ranter: Oh RR I feckin love you Bro
. You cannot even mention these days on this blog about where we see improvements are needed. If we do, we get called sensationalists, emotionalists, fickle, depressents etc etc etc. Good God, can’t you just make a seperate thread for all the saints who feel we should not criticise any thing or anybody at all 
. The nWE DEVILS can really be devilish and tell it how it is. Rnat over 
.
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@Craig Mc: And if Terry had scored a penalty last season we would not be European Champions. If Heskey heads in an equaliser in the last game of the season we might not have won the league. If the referee gives a penalty against Pompey in the FA Cup we might have won the treble. Ifs, buts and maybes.
Bottom line, we are 10 games into the season and five points off the lead. We have a relatively safe home banker as our game in hand. We have two of the three hardest away fixtures in the league out of the way (with the other next weekend) and two of our four main bogey grounds off the list as well. Hardly that bad a situation now is it?
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@JB: There are some MF generals around, and that is Fergie’s job to find one not mine. I know you drag up stats all the time, but we watched the game, and I saw it differently, as did other fans around me
.
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@JB: Blood exactly mate
.
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@Craig Mc: Most of these midfield generals you speak about are usually creatively inept. Most teams with a holding player play a 4-3-3 and they have two other midfielders that provide the attacking; chelski, barca, liverpool etc. Others that utilize a holding player have to play a genuine Attacking mid, which we do not have. We would have to change our (successful) style and our personnel to accommodate this. I’m not saying we don’t need an anchor, we do in certain games, that’s why we bought Hargo, but we all know that story…
Also, that composure you speak about cannot only be brought by a tough tackling player, because Carrick has been doing it for two years now. Like I said he doesn’t crunch tackle, but intercepts beautifully and his passing helps control the game. Obviously he’s rusty now, but from the little time he was on today, we looked more in control of the game.
Our system of playing two centre mids has always worked, because Carick was literally a defensive mid with great passing and we had a front four capable of causing havoc without much assistance from midfield. Against stronger teams and in Europe, a holding player is required and unless you’re up for selling/giving up on Hargo, then we will have to make do with Fletch who is coming into his own in that position.
Recently, Fletch has been moving forward a lot, but when ordered to hover in front of the back four, he does that well(the match against Aalboorg). I reckon he moves forward this much because, unlike carrick, who can contribute to the attack without going forward (his passing), fletcher has to move forward and participate in the short interlinking play.
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@Craig Mc: I don’t know what you’re sad about, that is what football is like. It is built on fine margins and the gap between success and failure is often alot smaller than people would like to admit. That’s life and it’s what makes the game worth watching
On the midfield general, the only two Keane replacements I can think of playing at the minute are De Rossi and Essien and neither of them is a realistic target. Someone might come along and suggest a few up and comers that could fill the roll but I can’t think of anyone who could immediately step in. There are a few good specialist midfielders out there who could do some of things that are being asked for but none that have the all round game of that I presume you are looking for. The only solution is to tinker with our current group of CM’s until we find the right mix (and to be fair it is more difficult when two of them are crocked).
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@Craig Mc: If you think Hargreaves SHOWS COMPOSURE (
) then you’re watching a different player. I’m very fond of Hargreaves but what he does is break up the play, that’s it. Carrick does that and more. We don’t need a player like Hargreaves for matches like this, he doesn’t dominate games anywhere near as well as Carrick does.
Hargreaves is nowhere near as composed on the ball as Carrick, ask anyone, even Grognard would agree on that point.
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@Conor: Hargreaves shows incredible composure on the ball. Watch him in our own box with the ball at his feet. He shows no panic and has more than enough confidence in his dribbling and retention ability. And the reason he doesn’t look as composed on the ball as Carrick is because he is so much quicker and more nimble. Carrick is slow footed he looks composed. He’s so slow that by the time he moves one leg the other is suffering rigor mortis. So no, Grognard would not agree on that point. When Hargo is healthy he is amongst the best players in Europe due to his versatility and coupled with his tremendous defensive ability and composure.
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Heh, unbelievable. Hargreaves fanboys are even worse than Ronaldo fanboys, because he’s not even that good.
So Grognard, seeing as he is amongst the best players in Europe, how come no other big team ever even considered coming in to buy him? You know, when Barcelona were looking for a defensive midfielder, as were Real Madrid. How come they never considered buying one of the best players in Europe?
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Heh, unbelievable. The fact that Hargreaves is faster and a better dribbler is in no way related to how composed he is on the ball. The fact that he gives it away more often, while running with the ball and passing, tells me he’s less composed on the ball. That’s besides the fact it’s clear to any unbiased fan, of course.
Hargreaves fanboys are even worse than Ronaldo fanboys, because he’s not even that great.
So Grognard, seeing as he is amongst the best players in Europe, how come no other big team ever even considered coming in to buy him? You know, when Barcelona were looking for a defensive midfielder, as were Real Madrid. How come they never considered buying one of the best players in Europe?
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@Conor: Other big clubs didn’t go in for Hargo because they do not have the same insight Fergie has OBVIOUSLY. But listen Conor, we are not all going to love the same players are we. Each fan sees different things in different players. I love Little man Nani, I see in him amazing things that others don’t
, but I don’t expect others to see it the same way as me. I am not going to call them sensationalists, emotionalists, fickle fans etc because they have a different viewpoint to myself. You love who you love Conor, without calling other people fanboys of Ronnie, Hargo etc etc etc. Surely we are all feckin fan boys. Let the statiticians love and enjoy other statiticians, and let the rest of us see what we see on the terraces, and have our opinions. I don’t mind you having your opinions, its just all this labelling of people with different viewpoints. You can skip our posts if you don’t like them 
.
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@Grognard: The other leg is suffering rigor mortis, that is feckin classic Grog
.
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@JB: Jb, why do you assume I am sad, because I feel the team need improvements?. I think people who see and understand the need for improvements in a team, would make fantastic managers Bro
. You may enjoy our 2nd half circus play, but I don’t, and it has been happening too much lately. I do not happen to think our midfield are that great, but I will say it again, IT IS JUST MY OPINION 
. It’s a lot more fun listening to the comments on the terraces, because the terrace fans are such comedians – I love it. And I laugh, even if they are joking about a player I think is magic 
. Some of us are passionate and emotive, let us all be Bro 
.
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@Conor: But you’ll see that across all cross sections of people won’t you — some positive, some negative and some on the fence? Fickleness is something most of us have gotten used to haven’t we? I mean we’ll see a few wins along the way, then we’ll see a loss — a few will complain, a few won’t and three or four people will call the complaining lot fickle. I think by now most of us would have learned that a big chunk of football support are emotional about their teams — some of those will be fickle because of the obvious involvement of emotions.
I don’t know if that can be held against them as a point of an argument. If anything it makes the person you want to hold the argument with, not want to listen to you because you branded him as fickle. Kind of defeats the purpose of a debate then, don’t you think?
Hope I’m making sense
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@Grognard: the same Carrick who only today made a surging run to score our second goal? I’m sorry but I’ve never seen Hargreaves do that. Carrick is what helped turn this team from also rans to double league champions and CL winners. If I’d actually seen Hargreaves on more than the usual 1 game a month that he seems to play I might have a higher opinion of him but until then he’s an enigma
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watch FA cup last year vs arsenal , you will see hargo making plenty of those runs
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Ha ha! I hope Fergie doesn’t read this blog, otherwise he’ll be tempted to sell all his players and buy some “better”. Come on, guys! Here’s to a win in the Emirates!
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@ROOOONEY: Ehh, Hargo didnt play that game. Our team was:
VDS
Brown Rio Vidic Evra
Park Fletcher Carrick Anderson Nani
Rooney
Can you see Hargo in there?
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@james f: Cheers!
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@Liam: Yeah, but its not only that Carrick gave us something new. He gave us stability which was needed at that time. I think Carrick is better than Hargo, but what do I really base that upon? They are two completely different players!
Passing-
Carrick: 10
Hargo: 8
Running/Working.
Carrick: 9
Hargo: 10
Dribbling, running with ball at feet.
Carrick: 8
Hargo: 9
Composure.
Carrick: 8
Hargo: 8
Tackling.
Carrick: 8
Hargo: 9
Shooting.
Carrick: 9
Hargo: 8
Aggresion.
Carrick: 8
Hargo: 9
Positioning.
Carrick: 10
Hargo: 9
Vision.
Carrick: 10
Hargo: 8
Speed.
Carrick: 7
Hargo: 9
Stamina.
Carrick: 9
Hargo: 9
End result is Carrick: 96/110 and Hargo 96/110. This has to end with a sudden death. Lets say that Carrick wins because he plays more games and aint that injury prone.
Carrick! Anderson! Best midfield pair we have! 
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ops my mistake , i think it was vs roma? at home
i cant remember but i do remember him making those kinda of runs
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LOL
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/index.html
scroll down and check out the table , they have liverpool @29 points someone need to fix that
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@ROOOONEY: Looks like theyve fixed it.
In other news, Levy is blaming Berbatona for Spurs poor start. He sayd Berba didnt want to play for Spurs and that had been going on for about a year. I frankly dont care about this anymore, he cant win anything! Berba is ours, we are winning and Spurs look like they are back on track. Still, just wanna say: Up yours!
And Ronaldo may get a better salary on his contract. He can get £20,000 more, which makes his weekly contract £140,000 a week. Who doesnt want to be a footballer…
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@Red Ranter: Yeah, perfect sense as always RR. Apologies.
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@RedDevilEddy: Lets say Hargo wins, because he scores incredible FREE kicks, and he is the WARRIOR that Michael isn’t – end of. O and I would debate some of your findings there as well in your markings
. Even if it were to be sudden death between Hargo and Carrick, Hargo the WARRIOR would always win hands down. Pity he is never fully fit enough to prove it to you all 
.
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@Craig Mc: And just because he is never fully fit that means that Carrick wins hands down!
Jeez, not so long ago people were begging for the return of St Michael. Just because of the good performances by Fletchernho and Ando, we should not forget how bad our midfield look everytime after Carrick was either injured or substitued.
For the past year Carrick has been hands down the most consistent performer in central midfield and for all attributes ratings a player may possess (I’m looking at you, Eddy
) consistency is one of, if not the most important attribute that CMs should possess to be considered a good player!
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It is stupid comparing Hargo and Carrick as at the end of the day unless Hargreaves is 100% which I do not believe he has been while playing for us, it is not a fair comparison.
Carrick is an integral part of our team and one of the reasons we won back-to-back titles. Hargreaves is a bit-part squad player owing to injuries. I know who I would rather have.
I love Hargreaves ever since I saw him play for England but Im disappointed with his injury problems. It is obvious to me that he has a chronic injury problem which requires managing and not playing every game. But that means he will alternate between being injured and lacking in matchfitness and will never be 100% and will be just used as a utility player with Anderson, Fletcher, Carrick and Scholes favoured in central midfield.
We do not have a midfield general but I think we need some leadership somewhere in the team or else we will turn into Arsenal. Who was there to steady the ship when Hull rattled us with a second goal? No-one. Who was there to spur us for a final push against Everton second half? No-one. Who was there to keep the game under control againsst Chelsea and Liverpool? No-one.
Obviously an English captain would be preferred but Rooney is a loose cannon, Carrick is too nice, Hargreaves is never fit and too nice, Giggs is too nice, Scholes is too nice. Neville is on the way out. Rio is as prone to lapses as anyone. EVDS hardly inspires confidence. Really there are very few leaders in the team.
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@Craig Mc: I assumed you were sad because you used the following smilie in your last comment –
I presume that still means sad
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@JB:
, Good one Jb. When I use a sad smilie, it isn’t usually because I am sad, but normally because of the sad state of affairs that is happening to be discussed. It is sad though, when even smilies can get someone into bother 
. Just jesting Jb 
.
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@Conor: Be cynical all you want mate. Doesn’t make you right. And if you don’t see me is a right, well that’s fair too. Hargo is a class act whose career has derailed because of the injury. If not for that his exposure with United and especially England would get the notice he deserves. The years in Bayern were good but because he was played in a million different positions, that alone probably made him less attractive to bigger teams who like a player for a specific position. Also, he made it very clear to all football teams he would only leave Bayern for United or not leave at all. So there you have your answer. Clearly you are not a fan of his but your reasons don’t add up to nothing but a bias opinion of the player. I for one have followed his career from the day he left the Calgary Foothills Association youth club to travel to Germany and sign for Bayern Munich. Maybe I have a bias due to my interest in his career from day one but then again, perhaps I just know more about the lad and have more faith in his abilities than you do. When he was healthy and starring for England while everybody around him sucked shit, he was the cat’s meow. Last year when he played at 70% health and ruled games and delivered great crosses as well as free kicks while playing CDM, RMF and RB doesn’t count. I’m trying really hard to remember him making a terrible turnover or giveaway that cost us. Why? Because he doesn’t give up the ball because he is so composed on the ball.
Sorry mate but you have it so wrong about Hargo.
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