Oct 16
Manchester United Player Ratings: The Midfield
This is part two of our three part series, looking back at our season so far. Player ratings are, admittedly, an objective way of looking at things. But with the current break giving us only pointless transfer rumours to chew about, we might as well look back at some of our players who’ve featured so far.
For those who missed Part I where we dwelt on our attackers, you can have a look at that here.
Today, as mentioned in the title, we will be taking a look at the midfield — more specifically this will be central midfield. We discussed wingers along with our attackers.
Paul Scholes
He’s been criticised by fans, much like Ryan Giggs, for being poor in games that we’ve played. I have a slightly different opinion of Scholes. He hasn’t been as bad as has been made out to be. The team on the whole has been giving away the ball far too often and has been lackadaisical in their approach that it’s unfair to single out one player. But we will have to get a verdict out on him and I, for one, would fault him for only one thing — he has been staying way too back this season and for someone like Scholes who revels in moving forward, this would be only bad for him and the rest of the team. Although at times, like in the Wigan game, it was the best thing to do, especially when Anderson was stringing passes at will. Again, in the absence of holding midfielders, and with his ageing legs, staying back looks like the best thing for him to do at the moment. That is certainly not good for the team though. Nothing spectacular so far, nonetheless, better than Giggs. Rating: 6.5/10
Michael Carrick
He has been an enigma this season. Just when you get a feeling that he may not be justifying his place that he turns out a brilliant performance — especially the one against Chelsea. Looks like a big match player. Last year, he won the MoM against Chelsea, was again masterful against Roma in the UCL quarterfinal. But as a United player, one would demand consistency from players. Having an excellent game followed by three mediocre displays just won’t do at the highest level. Call me spoiled, but those are the standards expected at this club, simply because there are others behind, knocking at the door for a look-in. Whether it is because he was shaken by the arrival of Owen Hargreaves or the pressure of having to fight for his place — something he’s never had to do for so many years at West Ham and Spurs — his form isn’t quite at the level of last season. He needs to buck up after he gets back from injury. Because, we might have Hargreaves (and possibly Anderson, if he does a repeat of Wigan) who could take his place. Rating:6.5/10
Owen Hargreaves
Leave aside his injury problems. He’s had to adapt to the place, although not entirely alien to him, and he’s had to get a feel for the pace of the league. But when he played — for three games, if my memory serves me right — he integrated seamlessly into the side. He clearly gave our midfield the cutting edge and dynamism we’ve so lacked, and especially the way he rendered Elano virtually anonymous in the City game gives us hope for optimism once he gets fit. And his impact showed, he was voted as the fans’ player of the month of August despite having played in only two of the five games. I am personally quite impressed, although, if anything, his injury situation would be the only dampener, so far. Rating: 7/10.
Darren Fletcher and John O’Shea
Both players have been and will continue to be our perennial fringe players. It is unfair on them, because they give their all when they play for the club. Fletcher has grown as a player, despite being limited, and O’Shea’s versatility has made the pair quite important to us. It’s no wonder then, that last season Fletcher played 40+ games. This season Fletcher has managed 5 substitute appearances and no starts and O’Shea’s had one start and four sub appearances. So it would be unfair to rate them at all. I reserve judgement on them only after I’ve seen enough, but they will certainly have important roles this season as they did last season.
Anderson
Thanks to readers for pointing it out. Anderson slipped my mind suddenly. Anyway, here it is. He had lot of things to contend with when he came to OT. Injuries, environment among other things. He couldn’t train all that well in pre-season because of Copa America so it took him time to get himself acquainted with our style of play. Despite being among the better players in the Carling Cup he was panned by sections of the media unfairly. But he showed glimpses of undoubted talent in the Roma game, and loads of it in the Wigan game. While it was very encouraging, the jury would still be out on him. After all, he’s just 19. Give him time. And we hope he turns out as good as we expect him to be. Having had one outstanding appearance, I will not go head over heels in my rating. Great future for the lad. Let’s keep it that way for now.
That should be the analysis for the day. Get back to us tomorrow, as we shall look at our defence. Feel free, in the meantime, to agree or disagree with us in the comments. If you haven’t seen Part I yet, this might be a good time to read that.
Related items from Red Rants:
- Manchester United Player Ratings: The Defence
- Manchester United Player Ratings: The Attack
- Manchester United Half Time Report: The Attack
- Manchester United 07/08 Season Review: The Midfield
- Fergie Comes Around On Rooney
Tags: Manchester United Players
Craig Mc (195)
RedDevilEddy (170)
Opti (135)
Moscow is my heaven (96)
Ian (95)
In part 1 you said “Don’t ask why I haven’t included Anderson. He is a central midfielder, according to me. I will get to him when I discuss the midfield.” Anderson´s raiting?
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You should also have mentioned about Anderson, even if not about ranking but at least to mention him seaparately and how the future portends for him. He had a very good game against Wigan and I think if Fergie continues to give him more games we shall have another very good central midfielder.
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U forgot Anderson.
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My bad. Thanks for pointing it out. I’ve added it now.
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The midfield is starting to look like our strong point once again. We used to have the perfect midfield with Becks, Keano, Scholesy and Giggs and now thankfully the days of Djemba-Djemba and company are over and we have an abbundance of choice in all positions. It will be interesting to see what Fergie does once Hargreaves and Carrick are back, especially given Anderson’s dramatic improvement of late.
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“Player ratings are, admittedly, an objective way of looking at things”
Don’t you mean “subjective” ?
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I meant objective. But in the sense that when you ‘objectivise’ things, you tend to oversimplify player performances to mere numbers. Objective in the sense that the numbers convey something that may give you a cold assessment of things. Unlike something done subjective, where each player is talked about on a case by case basis, where we argue about his attributes at length.
Am I making sense?
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I really get the feeling that in Anderson we have our own Fabregas.
I know its very early days, but the glimpses that I’ve seen of him is enough to convince me of it.
Please don’t mis-understand me. With the Anderson/Fabregas comparison, I don’t mean to say the “next” Fabregas or anything, just that we have that “special” player in our team.
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Hmmm, i’m not sure, Mr.Ranter.
I’ll let it slide though:-)
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The criticism of Scholes is fair because as the central attacking midfielder he has more control over the the style, approach and pace of the game than anyone else on the pitch. His passes have been careless, his pace and eagerness to not only run at opponents but to just run forward has deserted his game. He is a great shooter of the ball and yet he has taken very few cracks at goal. More often than not he has destroyed a perfect counterattack by slowing the pace up or by making his now infamous back pass.
No I’m sorry Red Ranter but Scholsey is not just showing his age. He has become a liability as a starter. Perhaps he would show enterprise and energy again as a valuable offensive minded reserve, but as a starter, he seems to lack the initiative, ambition and perhaps the physical conditioning to play with the Rooney’s, Ronaldo’s, Nani’s and Tevez’s of the team.
Anderson clearly has great potential but I feel he is a few seasons away from really feeling comfortable and confident about his abilities and role. So we are left with MR. 6.5 Carrick. An 8.5 vs Chelski and a 3.5 for all the other games. He is asleep at the wheel and is clearly not consistent enough to be the man who will lead our attack from the center of the pitch. Plan B has got to go into effect. Find a short term replacement with great ability who will hold down the fort until Anderson is ready to make it his. As you probably know, Riquelme is one of my favorites. Unfortunately for me, the moody baggage he carries as well as his need to be the center of all that goes on on the pitch, makes him a pipe dream on my part. He may lack pace but his creativity, vision, passing ability and breathtaking ability to score off of free kicks makes him ideal. He is 29 and I think that he is a perfect fit for 2 years. However, this won’t happen because Fergie will not change the team’s style on the field to accommodate his style, and nor should he. His ability to totally control a match with Argentina while not fast of pace, he seems to adapt to the others around him like Messi and Tevez who are breaking out with speed.
His game over the weekend against Chile was poetic and a total masterpiece. I know Fergie once coveted him. I wonder now if he would be willing to take a chance. This is the one player in the world who can crack open fortress-like defenses for non- traditional strikers like Tevez and Rooney. He doesn’t need a Ruud or Huntelaar type to feed. Anyway, it’s just a pipe dream of mine. Still, United need to fill that 2 year vacancy more than they need a striker. Creativity in the midfield is the fulcrum of our offense. Without it we suffer and find it hard to break down even the most pedestrian of sides. We need a midfield maestro like a Riquelme, Fabregas, Kaka, Van Der Vaart, Gerrard, Pirlo etc. This type of talent is hard to find and even harder to purchase. Yet there is one sitting on the bench at Villarreal who I feel is worth taking a chance on. Yes he brings baggage and attitude but Fergie can handle it and certainly, he really is not that different than Cantona as he simply just beats to his own drummer. You don’t cage a talent like that. You encourage it.
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Gerrards name does not deserve to be amongst players who can pass the ball Grognard
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GROGNArD rules! ur right! bring on Roman Riq! hahaha! on loan maybe? so where r u from Grognard? ur name sounds German?
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Grognard although you clearly thought out your argument well I can’t see it happening, totally agree he could work well playing for us, but for one he always plays with TWO other midfielders making up for his laziness, and although it could be said that Hargreaves may be able to do the job of two men I don’t think fergie would be happy with us being that exposed at the back, at least anderson and scholes(try to) tackle occasionly, so I think it would be a long shot. Plus he did an interview fairly recently before saying that its unlikely he would play in any other country than Spain or South America as he hasn’t bothered to learn English or any other languages, and doesn’t plan on doing so anytime soon. By the way you never took into account that Fergie may have advised scholes that as he’s getting older and because he wants Carrick to go forward more that maybe scholes should stay as a sitting playmaker, in the pirlo mould, although this doesn’t suit scholes it could be a possibility…
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Ya anderson does come off as a fabregas.and he has pace which fab dont i hope he gets a long run in the first team .grognard forget bout riquelme.he is far too slow for the premiership(like veron)and does not suit our style of play at all.too pedestrian,too moody and too big headed.no thanks.he would suit at a bigger club in spain or italy though coz he his a great player.but not for united.i hope
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Redranter: A good set of ratings, no disagreements this time! Although I do agree with Grognard somewhat, as chief conductor Scholes sets the tone, if his possession/passing is careless it will likely spread to others so I think he can be singled out to an extent.
I think people tend to forget what type of role Scholes played so effectively last season. He played as deep as he has played this season and operated within 15 or 20 yards of Carrick. He hasn’t been the break forward player for sometime now. I won’t disagree that his form has been poor (average at best) though.
Carrick has shown enough, in my opinion, to be given the role of main conductor. He has shown he has big game temperament and his performances tend to improve when he is not acting as second fiddle to Scholes. On Hargreaves return I would be extremely tempted to make them the 2 man midfield in a 4-2-3-1. The combination has similarities to the Gattuso/Pirlo partnership and I believe it deserves a fair crack of the whip.
Grognard: One of the biggest issues with Riquleme (other than emotional baggage, frequent disappearance in big games, lack of mental fortitude etc) is adaptation to England. Veron failed to adapt and every characteristic that contributed to his downfall I see present in significantly greater amounts in Riquleme. Finally Villarreal bent over backwards to encourage and not cage the man’s talent and yet he still threw hissy fits and acted like a spoilt child.
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I find it difficult to pass judgement on Sholes, Carrick, and Hargreaves thus far since they haven’t had the opportunity to play together consistently. At the start of the season, I was in favor of the 4-2-3-1 with all three of them starting, but with the form of Tevez, I think the 4-4-2 is the best option, especially in league. Once we begin to face more difficult opposition, I can see the 4-2-3-1 being employed (vs. Arsenal and CL opponents). Against the more rigid sides like Chelsea and Liverpool, I would advocate the 4-4-2. At this point, however, we cannot expect Scholes to play the full 90 at the level he has in the past. So by starting him, I think SAF would essentially be forced to use a substitution on him at some point. The same goes for Giggs. My fear is that there may be some turn of events late in the 2nd half, like an opposing late goal to tie, after both have been subbed and some tactical change may have to be made, leaving us with one or fewer substitutions. However, with the form of our back four, I believe it is safe to send Scholes and Carrick forward more often. Hopefully that will allow them to improve their form.
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it would be a dream for me to see juan roman the magic man in a red shirt but i just get the feeling that the case against his presence is slightly greater than the case for. but yes he would be a fantastic addition to any team, just comes down to his adaptiveness to the premiership. i did read a rumour that he was coveted by man city so even if hes not at united it would be great to see him in england, if it did so happen.
just watching the dvd of last season. why cant we play that football again where everytime we went forward we looked like scoring. saha was fantastic at the start….
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Kienu; Grognard is just my nickname online. I am a big Napoleonics fan and “Grognard” refers to the grumpy old men of Nappy’s Old Guard. I’m not so old but I am grumpy some of the time. I’m also not German although I sometimes wish I was because Germany has always been my favorite country to visit, Bayern is my second team of choice (behind Man U) and their national side is my fave also. I’m actually Canadian living in Vancouver.
Now about Riquelme, much has been written about his bust up with the simpleminded manager of Villarreal. As Ray Hudson puts in his American broadcasts of Argentina games, “Riquelme is a gift from the Gods and is by the best player in the world and I will go to my grave applauding his brilliance”. I for one agree with old Ray on this. Yes he carries a lot of baggage but an artist (and that’s what he is) always beats to another drummer than most of us. Riquelme almost single handedly lifted the bottom feeders at Villarreal and hoisted them as well as Boca Juniors on his shoulders. His selfishness is not on the field, for no man who distributed the ball with such finesse and eagerness can truly be called selfish.
He was the only offense on a team that lived by the counter attack. Forlan for one has not been the same without him. His moodiness and reclusive nature is no different than Cantona,
or Henry. A good coach like Alfile Basile knows how to deal with him and it has paid off greatly for Argentina. All he needs is to be appreciated for what he brings to a team and not be asked to do things that are not in his creative or physical nature. Surely his play has not hurt his national side.
Fergie is an attack minded manager who I am sure would appreciate and encourage Riquelme much like he did with Cantona and Ronaldo. You do not reign in brilliance and imagination. Only insecure managers who lack the understanding of what make this game beautiful would hand cuff Riquelme. Ass clowns like Benitez and even the Special One are so rigid in their approach that they continually put a straight jacket on their creative players. Fergie knows better. He also would love the slower but more probing buildup that Riquelme would offer. Similar to players like Hoddle and Beckenbauer, Roman can expose or penetrate stubborn defense with a ouch of genius that does not require pace. His passes are magical.
Although he does bring some baggage, I think he would be happy at United especially now that Tevez is there. They are close friends from what I have read. English is not important.
Many players today play in foreign countries and don’t even bother to learn the native tongue. The only language he needs to know is the one we call football.
Let me also say that I feel Riquelme is not just a good short term fit for United but an essential one. His style is perfectly suited for the kind of game we play with our two forwards. They like to get balls fed to them in space or as through balls. He’s also suited for the style of play that is used in the Champions League. No wonder AC Milan are interested in him. Veron may have failed but he was an entirely different player. He also didn’y have a fellow Argentine to help him out. Did Ozzie Ardiles or Ricky Villa suffer? Heinze seemed fine until he entered Fergie’s doghouse. For me he is the missing link that will make our forwards salivate in anticipation. Regarding his pace, Argentina is a fast flowing machine of a team with Tevez, Messi Maxi Rodriguez etc. They all seem to play very well around the slower pace of Riquelme. His pace would only be a problem if he were a forward. Remember, he is a provider and thus his pace isn’t an issue. Argentina also have Mascherano playing the Hargreaves role so United should be protected.
This pipe dream of mine will probably never see the light of day but I just have a strong feeling that he would be the right fit for United until Anderson is ready to take over. And what better mentor of the physical tools of the game is their than Riquelme? Giggs and Scholes are their to teach the life lessons to the lad. Come January, I think he would come cheap, and would therefore be a steal. And if he doesn’t work out as planned, he can be shipped off in the summer. Sorry for the long rant but Riquelme is a god I like to pray to.
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Grognard: This is the second post in the last couple of days where you criticized a coach because of freezing out a player you like (Alves being the other). Take a gander at the La Liga table, Villarreal are sitting in third, hardly the work of a muppet. As for Argentina and Basile, (the man who knows how to handle Riquelme so well) the maestro still disappeared at the critical juncture in the Copa America final. In the 2006 World Cup his coach considered his work rate so abysmal that he pulled him off (the WRONG decision). But nevertheless it illustrates that the man can barely be bothered to move his backside around the pitch. Finally the hero of Villarreal, at the most crucial point of the 2005/06 season against Arsenal, lost his bottle. The man has more natural talent than virtually any other player around but the truly great players do not so consistently disappear at the critical junctures.
Have you considered the fact that the managers who work with him day and daily have a better insight to the man that we do. He has consistently caused problems, needed teams built entirely around him (he would need not just Hargreaves but Carrick as well to look after him) and missed training (and even matches) when he doesn’t feel like it. Yet some coaches, recognizing his sheer talent, have given him carte blanche and yet he still turns round and bites them in the ass. He would be a far more difficult case than Cantona, he for whatever failings he had, was the epitome of hard work. Such preferential treatment would likely breed discontentment in the dressing room.
As for adaptation the man excels in slow paced games. We might want to play that and you might get away with it in Europe but the PL is certainly not slow. Veron’s playing style is not that different to Riqueleme’s and Veron had the advantage of greater mobility, aggressiveness and combativeness. South Americans who have adapted well over here have tended to be the ones who don’t mind rolling their sleeves up and getting stuck in and that is certainly not Riqueleme’s style. For a club of our stature and size we should not have to put in so much work and effort to convenience one player no matter how good he is, especially one who you can’t count on when the going gets tough. It is interesting to note that in five years in Europe he has collected a single Intertoto Cup. There have been enough attempts to make the man fulfill his potential by people more well versed in football than ourselves and they have ultimately all failed to harness his genius. SAF maybe be one of the most skilled man managers around but he is not a miracle worker either.
P.S. What formation do you envisage if he were to arrive?
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JB; I think you are making more out of the this than is necessary. First off, he was taken off in the World Cup against Germany because Pekerman got cautious playing against the home nation with the lead and 15 minutes to go. Not because he was not working hard. Secondly, I don’t know how many times I have to emphasize the fact that Argentina plays a fast paced EPL style of game yet allows Riquelme to alter the tempo at any point as he sees fit. Why? Because he is a midfield general and his play making speaks for itself. As for the Copa America final, I think the whole Argentine squad didn’t show up for that one. To single out Riquelme who had the best early scoring chance of the game is not fair and very petty. How many times do I have to single out Rooney, Owen, Lampard and Gerrard for the many times they have not shown up for their national team, especially at crunch time?
As for the Villarreal manager, I never called him a muppet and I don’t discount his abilities to get the most out of an ordinary squad. I just think that he should have tried harder to understand Riquelme as an individual and as a player. And having failed that, the team should have had the class to at least sell the player to another team rather than have him waste away. It’s a huge waste of talent and and a disgrace to sit him just out of silly pride.
And don’t forget that Fergie also coveted Riquelme not 18 months ago. Riquelme turned down United because he stated his satisfaction with life in Spain. I guess Fergie is an idiot for seeing in the man what I do. You on the other hand slag him for a couple of games where he and his team didn’t play well, while forgetting all the great matches where he did. The list of legends who never showed up in big games is so long that it is pointless to even bring it up.
The bottom line here JB is that he is not YOUR kind of player. You like the super hard working players that ru up and down the pitch and work hard like programmed transformers. And thats fine. I totally respect your preference and preferred style of play. I for one look for something different. Riquelme is not your average player and he is not a conformist. He plays his style with his unique perspective on the game. Who are we as fans to say his way is wrong? His Argentine teammates hug him and show him lots of love, especially after he scores an epic goal. Like Cantona, Ginola, Maradona, Hoddle and other free spirits you must let him be and let him express himself with his incredible talent. To tie him down to what you perceive as the only way to play the game is rather close minded. Football is a team sport defined by individual creative endevour and flair. I for one have never been a fan of the blue collar mentality of hard work and discipline being the only way to play a sport. Thank god for the Pele’s, Ronaldinho’s, Ronaldo’s, Maradona’s, Beckenbauer’s, Best’s, Cantona’s, Eusebio’s of the world who don’t conform to rigid styles of play. Riquelme is a genius, and for those who cannot see it I just have pity for them as they are narrow minded fans of the beautiful game. They’d rather watch Pompey play Sunderland in a hard working but utterly dull display of footy.
Finally, to answer your question as to what formation they should play if they were to get Riquelme, I believe the 4-1-2-1-2 DIAMOND that both Argentina and Germany play. Hargreaves is back there to protect the slow footed Riquelme but he is just behind the strikers ready to feed them with through balls and balls into space. Both forwards can run to their heart’s content and the two wide midfielders/wingers can have freedom to also express themselves. Even the present formation would work provided that Hargreaves and not Carrick or Scholes play.
Remember, I just threw this out for discussion. I really do not believe it will ever come to fruition for many of the reasons you brought up. A player’s bad reputation can be a terrible thing to cope with. United do have the ways and means to get another player who can offer many of the abilities of Roman. They’ll just have to pay more to get him. And lets not forget, we need insurance at left back and at striker.
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Grognard you are being a bit presumptuous. I like Riquleme, I’m a big fan in fact. He has a huge amount of talent and if he had even half the mental fortitude and dedication of Roy Keane he would be the best player of the post Zidane era. Unfortunately he doesn’t, none of the great players you mention above were anywhere near as mentally fragile or as lazy as Riquleme is. I don’t want a team of mindless automatons; that is not the way to play football. But by the same token I do not expect players to miss significant numbers of training sessions or to cry off with fake injuries.
Our best player at the moment (Ronaldo for those in doubt) is no conformist yet I do not have issues with his eccentricities because he does not carry enough baggage to bring down a DHL freight plane. I believe Mourinho wrecked Robben and Duff and I think Rafa is a destroyer of strikers because of the ridiculous amount of work he asks them to do instead of allowing them to do what comes naturally. As I said I like Riquleme but for me is the wrong man, at the wrong time, in the wrong place. Also I presume the 2 ‘wide’ men in the diamond are Ronaldo and one of Giggs/Schoels/Nani. If that is the case the formation looks horribly vulnerable to being overrun with relative ease.
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Although you have brought up some very valid points JB, I still have a problem with this lazy label you have placed on Riquelme. The man looks anything but lazy when he plays for Argentina or during his stint with Boca. What you are doing is mistaking lack of motivation for laziness. At Villarreal he lacked the motivation to play for a man and a system that was the antithesis of what his beliefs were in regards to the way the game should be played. If he ever played for Benitez, I think the two would have killed each other. Managers like these guys are everything that’s wrong with football. There strategy and tactics borders on
absolute boredom and severe caution. Riquelme was just fed up with Villarreal’s 4-5-1 defensive formation which required a few counter attacks and thats all. Yes they had success but for Riquelme, success was limited and he wanted to climb a mountain that was worthy.
As for your worries of a diamond formation. Most great attacking teams in Europe use it today and to great success. Rather than look at the occasional times that we would be vulnerable, lets focus on the numerous times our opponents will be vulnerable instead. A great offense is still the best defense I say. I will say this however, that I would only use a diamond shape formation if I had a world class holding midfielder like Hargreaves, Frings, Essien and Gattuso. Carrick or Scholes in that position would be a calamity waiting to happen. They just don’t cover the ground or tackle well enough to make it work.
I am also open to a 4-2-3-1 formation but that would require buying another holding midfielder to partner Hargreaves. Perhaps Veloso. The attacking three man midfield in front of those two would consist of Nani and Ronaldo wide, and a Riquelme-like central attacking midfielder to pull the strings in the middle. I like this less because there is only one striker but it is very strong defensively yet still offers great potential offensively if the three attacking midfielders are world class talents. We have two out of three there. AC Milan use a similar approach with KAKA or Pirlo as their midfield trigger men. They seemed pretty good at ripping Man U apart last season with this setup.
It’s all about the right players. Players make a any system work provided they are the right mix. But for all these systems to work one thing is vital. A midfield general who can pull the trigger on passes that will exploit defenses. Right now we have been lacking that on a consistent basis. That’s why I would take a chance on Riquelme and hope that his hunger is better and that Tevez in the side can help him adjust and conform.
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Juan Roman Riquelme is getting a lot of words written about on here at the moment and I can see why as he is a superb player. However, he does have a slight attitude problem which is the reason for being frozen out at Villarreal and although I feel he would do a good job for us in the Champions League he would not be able to cope with the physical demands on a player in a 2-man midfield.
However, this debate should be all but done now considering Anderson’s current form and if he keeps this up for much longer then Scholes, Carrick and Hargreaves will be fighting for one spot.
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WE NEED TO BUY A MIDFILDER
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