Nov 21
Manchester United vs Everton: Preview
Another international break has ended finally giving United the opportunity to avenge the 1-0 defeat against Chelsea. Willing victims, Everton, line up at Old Trafford in the day’s late kick-off, with Sir Alex Ferguson’s touchline ban not set to begin until after the match; he will surely demand a victory before he takes his seat in the stands.
In the terraces, for sure, will sit Gary Neville, who is suspended. Our defensive injury crisis worsened as John O’Shea picked up an ankle injury against France and remains doubtful for today’s game. Jonny Evans is touch and go with a calf strain and along with long-term absentee Rio Ferdinand, our defence will be stretched to its limits.
The good news is Nemanja Vidic — who has been out of action for three weeks with a calf problem — should return to marshal the defence after playing 70 minutes for Serbia against South Korea on Wednesday. Lining up beside him will no doubt be a jubilant Patrice Evra; Wes Brown, fresh from a woeful display against Brazil, and likely Rafael at right-back.
One thing you can probably guarantee is Nani won’t be getting on the pitch this weekend, despite his heroics for Portugal over the last week. His recent attack on Sir Alex will have not gone unnoticed by the manager. Paul Scholes, a lover of the much-maligned international break looks a certain starter; well rested and having missed out against Chelsea, he will surely be raring to go. For the other midfield slot, it is probably between Fletcher and Carrick, although since Carrick is carrying a slight thigh strain expect the Scot to start beside Scholesy.
Ryan Giggs, stuck on 99 Premier League goals, is expected to feature at some point as well in a bid to grab that all-important 100th goal. Gabriel Obertan will be pushing for a start, given his recent performances for both the first team and reserves, while Valencia will provide the attacking thrust down the right. Let’s hope he can deliver a few telling balls and carry on his recent run of good form.
Stand-in England captain, Wayne Rooney will no doubt lead the line against his former team. Dimitar Berbatov will look to carry forward his form with Bulgaria, as he bagged brace in the 4-1 thrashing of Malta to become Bulgaria’s all-time leading scorer with 48 goals in 74 appearances. He replaces Hristo Bonev, who held the record for 30 years.
The Toffees bring a number of ex-United stars back to Old Trafford. Louis Saha will be out to prove a point, if he manages to stay fit between now and kick-off. Tim Howard and, of course, the other Neville brother will be back, though the latter is out through injury.
Fergie clearly has a great amount of respect for Everton boss David Moyes, commenting on the injury crisis at Goodison and comparing it to our own. “Everton have had a tremendous run of injuries and David Moyes is facing much the same situation as myself at the moment. You can understand how difficult it is to win games when you don’t have your best team out. Once they get their full squad back they will soon come up the table again.”
Russian winger Diniyar Bilyaletdinov will definitely be out for Everton as he serves the second of his three-match suspension while Tim Cahill is doubtful with a groin injury. Among other absentees for the Merseysiders are Mikel Arteta, Phil Jagielka, Leon Osman and Victor Anichebe. Despite this Everton find themselves in exactly the same situation as last season, 12th on 15 points after 11 matches.
They are also bring a potential United star of the future, Jack Rodwell, recently linked with us for a staggering £20m fee, who will have the chance to show his potential employers what he is capable of. With a cool head and likened to Rio Ferdinand in style, it is easy to see why SAF is interested given the injury problems Rio has.
This season has been a tale of inconsistency for Everton but a run of 7 games without a win was ended with the 3-2 victory over West Ham two weeks ago. An injury ravaged Everton should provide a relatively simple test for us, especially after the injustice at Stamford Bridge. However, recent home results against Birmingham, Manchester City, Sunderland and Bolton do not exactly inspire confidence.
We can’t afford to drop any more points despite proclamations that the five point lead Chelsea hold isn’t ‘insurmountable’. Unbeaten at Old Trafford since 1992 against Everton, United have only lost once in the last 28 meetings between the sides.
Prediction: 3-1 United
Probable Line Up: Van der Sar; Evra, Vidic, Brown, Rafael; Obertan, Scholes, Fletcher, Valencia; Rooney, Berbatov
Related items from Red Rants:
- Man Utd v Everton: Preview
- Everton will not roll over for United
- United Let Everton off the Hook
- Everton vs Reds: Preview
- Everton vs Reds: Appalling But Three Points
Tags: Game Preview
November 21st, 2009 at 11:32
As always united, we shall conquer
November 21st, 2009 at 11:35
what time is kick off?
November 21st, 2009 at 11:53
5:30pm GMT
November 21st, 2009 at 12:30
Who are you and what have you done with redranter
November 21st, 2009 at 12:45
Paul Scholes is among my favourite players overall. However I’d prefer if he won’t start today. He will start obviously, but as an advocate of fluency and consistency I’d much favor Fletcher and Anderson in that midfield. Yes I’m also a big fan of the latter, but I think it’s time this combination got a reasonable run of games together. They bring energy and drive to the team. We’re facing a desperate Everton team and lately everyone has been getting the feeling that they could get a result against us at OT. It’s a not a good thing at all and Paul Scholes is not the type to get physical without costing us by being sent off. Champions League yes. He’s still a master, but in the league we can’t afford these luxuries. Unless Giggs is injured, Obertan or Nani will not start. It’s simple and clear. Even then, I don’t see Obertan starting ahead of Nani. Ferguson is unpredictable and can even start both players with Tony benchwise.
November 21st, 2009 at 12:53
This David Schiavone… Who is this? If you are a new writer, then welcome. If you have killed RedRanter, I will be mad at you. Anyways, good first article and hopefully you are not the murdurer/kidnapper we fear you are.
Its gonna be a hard game, Everton are a good side. Their injuries to Saha, Neville and Jagielka may help us a long way, but lest not forget that we will, AGAIN, play/experiment with a new makeshift back four.
I hope we win, and I hope Rooney rocks the baby.
November 21st, 2009 at 12:57
I hope Nani is in the doghouse because I cant stand the shit he puts on show every week. Obertan to start please. Perfect game at home against mid table opposition to get him his first start.
November 21st, 2009 at 12:58
@Footy4Eddy: When did they get injuries?
November 21st, 2009 at 13:00
@Footy4Eddy: Or atleast I didnt hear Saha was injured…
November 21st, 2009 at 13:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbcctWbC8Q0
November 21st, 2009 at 13:02
@Taehr: Skysports reported that Saha was out of the game, and had other doubtful players. Tim Howard included…
November 21st, 2009 at 13:51
@Jay wire: I agree to some degree with that mate, but with Anderson who I am not a fan of at all and Fletch we would lack creativity in the centre of the park, maybe Fletch and Carrick.
November 21st, 2009 at 15:51
Giggs and Fletch in central midfield would do me just fine.
November 21st, 2009 at 15:59
@Jay wire: As long as giggs and scholes aren’t on the same pitch together we’ll have plenty of energy. Hopefully its Fletch and Anderson or Fletch and Carrick(injury?) and that either are given a run of games together – get some consistency and familiarity in our team play.
Liverpool are pants! I was sure with stevie me back it would have been a huge boost. And I’ve been slighty concerned because with their shambolic season so far, they weren’t that far behind us considering. Fortunately my fears have now been quashed.
November 21st, 2009 at 16:25
David Schiavone?
November 21st, 2009 at 16:29
Nani will start imho.
November 21st, 2009 at 16:33
Is redranter’s actual name David Schiavone
November 21st, 2009 at 16:49
Sir Alex Ferguson is in charge of his 1000th domestic match of his career.
I too think that playing scholes and giggs from the start is really bad option coz we have been poor in games in which they two have started. I expect nani from the start and obertan as a sub in a cameo role. I don’t think obertan has really got that much matchtime experience before SAF gives him a start.
SAF would go for a 4-4-2 formation but please say what do u guys think on this formation
————–VDS————-
rafael – brown – vidic – evra
——– fletcher ———–
valencia —————- giggs
———– berbatov ———
——- owen —— rooney —
November 21st, 2009 at 16:54
I would love Berba, Rooney and Owen to play together…Would be a great with Berba and Rooney feeding Owen but don’t think we’ll see it
November 21st, 2009 at 16:58
Hi Guys,
I am not Red Ranter, I could not dream of replacing him, Im a new writer to the site and hopefully you’ll enjoy my previews.
Cheers
David
November 21st, 2009 at 17:01
Red Ranter is the pidgeons ass
November 21st, 2009 at 17:06
@vanderberg: I’d love to see rooney, owen and berbatov up front together as well but I doubt it will happen. Have they all played together yet? Maybe they have.
We need a glorious thrashing of Everton today cos our goal difference is pathetic compared to Arsenal and Chelsea – never know, we might need it!
November 21st, 2009 at 17:07
@Footy4Eddy:
November 21st, 2009 at 17:13
@jpg: No they haven’t played together yet but may be someday. I really like that formation and love to see hargreaves in that dmf position than fletcher commanding the game
ya, manutd need to improve goal difference we r on 11, che- 21 and ars -22
November 21st, 2009 at 17:19
@vanderberg: Chelsea are thrashing Wolves so theirs has improved again, better than arsenals at the moment.
November 21st, 2009 at 17:28
@Stephen: Fletcher and Carrick would always be my choice. The less I see of Anderson the better. And although Scholes has his moments, they are to few and far between for me to be risking playing time and points on him. It’s time he gives way for the others to find their form and consistency. He’s not only holding them back, he’s holding the team back. He should do the honorable thing and retire for all concerned.
November 21st, 2009 at 17:30
@Grognard: I do find it odd that you dont wanna see our second best form player in our team… Apart from Evra, nobody has been better than Anderson lately.
Not a bias, many fans agree with me on this one.
November 21st, 2009 at 17:31
why are Wolves fans showing their shoes?
November 21st, 2009 at 17:56
got this from cafe
Van der Sar
Rafael Vidic Brown Evra
Valencia Fletcher Carrick Giggs
Rooney Owen
Subs:Kuszczak, De Laet, Anderson, Scholes, Welbeck, Obertan, Gibson.
Berba not even on the bench?
November 21st, 2009 at 17:57
Man Utd: Van der Sar, Rafael Da Silva, Brown, Vidic, Evra, Valencia, Fletcher, Carrick, Giggs, Rooney, Owen. Subs: Kuszczak, Anderson, Scholes, Welbeck, Obertan, Gibson, De Laet.
Everton: Howard, Neill, Yobo, Distin, Baines, Gosling, Rodwell, Heitinga, Cahill, Fellaini, Saha. Subs: Nash, Hibbert, Jo, Yakubu, Coleman, Duffy, Baxter.
November 21st, 2009 at 18:01
@AndyCR7: Giggs on the wing? For fuck sake!!! Its not a bad team selection apart from that actually.
November 21st, 2009 at 18:02
We have been handed a golden opportunity. Liverpool and Citeh draw. Arsenal loose.
A win here and we go 3 clear of Arsenal, and 8 clear of Liverpool. We’ll also close the gap to Chelsea back to 5. They play Arsenal next week.
COME ON BOYS.
November 21st, 2009 at 18:02
Oh God Nani, goodbye… Cant even make the bench when we have many players injured.
November 21st, 2009 at 18:04
@jpg: I would play:
——vds——-
—brown–via—
Rafel———-evra
——-fletcher—–
—-carrick–giggs—-
——-valencia——-
—-rooney—owen—–
Rafael and evra provide support from the wing.
November 21st, 2009 at 18:04
@Dan: Everton playing with two defenders in central midfield…
November 21st, 2009 at 18:05
The writer needs to introduce himself. Does anyone know who he is?
November 21st, 2009 at 18:07
@Footy4Eddy: Doesn’t look good unfortunately for him.
November 21st, 2009 at 18:10
@Dan: @Dan: Yeah hopefully it plays that way but I can see rafael getting caught out when he comes forward. I really like him but he’s just a bit of a live wire at times.
November 21st, 2009 at 18:17
@jpg: I think Nani and Berba might have been rested just because they played in midweek. I know Evra did too, but well our defense is already running on empty.
November 21st, 2009 at 18:18
@jpg: It doesnt mate, too bad, he had potensial…
I feel for the lad, its difficult to deny that he was mistreated. Sad to see him leave, I am sure he will now. Maybe this opens the way for a new winger though?
November 21st, 2009 at 18:19
Oh, our Goal-Difference is just sickening. Chelsea-25, Arsenal-21 and us just 11? Just winning games is not enough, though that’s what we’ve all seemed to settle for recently – including the players and Fergie!
November 21st, 2009 at 18:21
well berbs is injured and nani doesn’t even make the bench, so bye bye nani..he had some good international games,would have done his confidence a lot if he played…as much as i like giggs he shouldn’t start against these physical teams…obertan dosent start either..wow everton playing 7 defensive players and thats not counting the keeper
November 21st, 2009 at 18:22
LOUIS SAHA 3 – MANCHESTER UNITED 0 –
, but very true – 
.
November 21st, 2009 at 18:23
@Footy4Eddy: I didn’t see the Portugal match but apparently he had a great game so he does have it to succeed. So did Berbatov and he ain’t playing either so maybe Antsboy is right and they are being rested.
November 21st, 2009 at 18:24
I am playing today
November 21st, 2009 at 18:25
Thank God he didn’t start scholes today. I would have preferred Fletcher and Andy, but I can live with fergie. Other than that I like this lineup.
November 21st, 2009 at 18:30
COME ON UNITED!!!
November 21st, 2009 at 18:31
i wish macheda was on the bench ahead of welbeck….
November 21st, 2009 at 18:32
@owen: So am I!
November 21st, 2009 at 18:42
@Johnsom33: It makes sense to pick Carrick for his passing as we have 2 midget strikers who’ll need it to feet. and they have a midfield that will sit off him.
November 21st, 2009 at 18:43
Also, I hope Rodwell has a blinder, so we sign him
November 21st, 2009 at 18:47
Damn it Rooney! Control the ball!
Otherwise a pretty good start.
Keep this us United!!
November 21st, 2009 at 18:50
@Traverse: rafael is having a great game so far…never pick neville again please fergie
November 21st, 2009 at 18:52
@RMJ: The Rafael/Valencia connection is working really well down the right. More of that please! If only we had an Evra/Obertan French Connection down the left
November 21st, 2009 at 18:57
Oh no come on Rafael! No more of this rugby nonsense!
November 21st, 2009 at 18:59
@Footy4Eddy: +1
November 21st, 2009 at 19:06
Yawn… this is rubbish.
November 21st, 2009 at 19:06
Long live darren fletcher, king of old traford.
November 21st, 2009 at 19:07
score one for the antifootballer
November 21st, 2009 at 19:07
@Dan: the man with a broken piece of bone in his leg scores just incredible
November 21st, 2009 at 19:08
Fletcher couldn’t have hit that shot any better. It was absolutely unsaveable.
November 21st, 2009 at 19:08
Fletcher or ZIDANE ????
I’m in shock!!!! GO BOY!!!
November 21st, 2009 at 19:08
Somewhat less than rubbish shot by Fletcher though
November 21st, 2009 at 19:10
What a fecking strike from Fletcher!
Goal of the Season!!!
KEEP THIS UP UNITED!!!
November 21st, 2009 at 19:17
Fletch is on fire, the whole game. One point however… we all know that Vidic can head the ball really really well.. someone should tell our corner takers. Beat the bloody first man, just once, I double dare you!
November 21st, 2009 at 19:20
HT.
Played extremely well 1st half.
Brilliant strike from Fletch, everything about it was perfect.
Just need to keep it up United!!!
November 21st, 2009 at 19:23
Quality strike, great movement but bits of sloppiness. I’m certainly not feeling home and dry, primarily because if it stays 1-0 we’re going to get bombarded eventually, and we’re a seriously short team at the moment. I’m terrified of corners/free kicks against Everton.
Still, encouraging football, and Valencia has been quality with Rafael on the right. More of that please.
I view today as a test of Fergie’s love of Giggs. Clearly Ryan is having another of those off days, but Fergie almost never pulls him off…Obertan…?
November 21st, 2009 at 19:24
Darren Fletcher > Zinedine Zidane
November 21st, 2009 at 19:26
Obertan on for Giggs, Welbeck on for Owen, De leat on for Rafael…
November 21st, 2009 at 19:30
Darren Fletcher, football genious. Was that Zidane out there?
November 21st, 2009 at 19:31
Hahahahaha – Rooney IMHO is ANYTHING but World Class. He cannot control a ball without letting it run away from him, and he has NO FINAL PASS that means anything – sorry but it’s true! He talks the talk, but so often doesn’t WALK THE WALK
Having said that Valencia lacks any sort of BELIEF in himself. His final pass is woeful too, just lob it in, anywhere will do
.
Rafael is playing OUT OF HIS SKIN, he stands out with Fletch from the rest at the minute. Giggsy on the left is WASTED these days, because when he plays a FULL GAME his contribution is not the same as when he comes on and the opposition are tired in last half hour or so.
Our defence still have colly wobbles when the opposition come onto them with any speed and good spells of possession. Not including Rafeal of course.
I try to look for positives, but only Rafeal, Fletch and Patrice (but no end product) Evra are the only ones. Hope for more positives in the 2nd half
.
November 21st, 2009 at 19:34
Good 1st 15 minutes. Rafael has a bright future here. Tony I like. Together with Rafael they’ve been showing some good chemistry. The same goes for Owen and Mr can’t pass the ball to a red shirt. Giggs should come off so we can see more of Obertan. He also goes by the same name as Owen’s partner in crime. After 15 min we returned to our trademark disjointed and disorganised football. Giggs and Rooney each take 40% of the blame for that. But Rooney strangely looks sharp even whilst losing possession. The midfield is solid but could they quit those stupid long balls. And Rooney too. They kill whatever thin thread of fluency we have. P.S. Tony and Rafael have a good future with us. Well unless Ferguson intervenes as he usually does.
November 21st, 2009 at 19:36
@CraigMc: Rooney is looking very sluggish indeed. Rafael started very well yes, but he just does not know when to hold back and is probably Everton’s best hope of getting anything from this game. I would have subbed him now.
November 21st, 2009 at 19:39
@Jay wire: What’s the point of Rooney being sharp mate – sharpness to me is when you can control a ball and make a TELLING MEANINGFUL PASS under pressure – Rooney’s middle name is (fuck up) because he fuck’s up our rhythm when the play always breaks down with him
. Lets hope he can prove me wrong in the 2nd half 
November 21st, 2009 at 19:42
@Anders: Glad you can see what I see with Rooney. Rafael is just young and enthusiastic, with an attitude to opposition players, you try to pass me YOU DIE
.
November 21st, 2009 at 19:44
Good stuff from Giggs!!!
Unlucky Micheal Owen!!
November 21st, 2009 at 19:44
gigs has tricks for decades
November 21st, 2009 at 19:48
@CraigMc: While commendable, it is stupid! He’ll get too many stupid sending offs, but hell he’s learning.
November 21st, 2009 at 19:48
Ah fuck, Scholes is warming up.
November 21st, 2009 at 19:49
Brave stuff from VDS!!
Fucking hope he isnt injured!!
November 21st, 2009 at 19:53
Oh fuck!!!
What a shot from Rooney! Unlucky!!
November 21st, 2009 at 19:54
anyone else watching of fsn who is the feking commentator? sounds a scouse twat
November 21st, 2009 at 19:55
Fergie has bottled it again. Why bring Scholes on for Rafael when we have De Leat on the bench. Now our midfield is less good cause Scholes is in it instead of Fletcher, who is now right back? Mad fucking decision.
November 21st, 2009 at 19:56
Oh fucking hell Owen!!
November 21st, 2009 at 19:57
Yessssssss!!!!
Carrick!!!!
November 21st, 2009 at 19:58
lol carrick passed that ball into the box
November 21st, 2009 at 20:03
More goals please! Think of the goal difference!
November 21st, 2009 at 20:04
Rooney for Obertan.
Well player Rooney lad!!
Come on Obertan!!
November 21st, 2009 at 20:06
3-0
Yessssssssss!!
Valencia via deflection!!
November 21st, 2009 at 20:07
wow united are running rampant hahahahaaaa
November 21st, 2009 at 20:07
Stick Giggsy up front! We want no. 100!
November 21st, 2009 at 20:13
@RMJ: I would rather we start mrs Redknapp at RB then see Neville play again.
November 21st, 2009 at 20:22
wow maybe this kid is worth a few quid
November 21st, 2009 at 20:23
@CraigMc: Rooney is a quality player but he falls just short of world class.
November 21st, 2009 at 20:26
FT.
Good display from United.
More of the same over the entire season please!!
November 21st, 2009 at 20:30
@edwin: Well played ROONEY – Edwin were you watching the same feckin game as me?
.
November 21st, 2009 at 20:33
@CraigMc: Mate, have you dumped your GF and started to date DonnieBrasco?
Seriously, what’s with all this Rooney hatred? Yes his form sucks of late but he still works his socks off and is a major catalyst for us going forward. You know that when he finally breaks his funk he will score in bunches because that’s just his way. I agree his passing of late has been poor as has his shot selection and accuracy but you are trashing him like he has never proven a thing to you over the years. He is world class and you know it. So stop with the anti Rooney tirades because if there is one player on our squad that doesn’t deserve that kind of shite, it’s Wayne.
November 21st, 2009 at 20:33
When Obertan came on, it was like watching the feckin Keystone cops, he quickened things up SOOOOOOOOOOOO much, got the UNITED CROWD REVVED UP, and suddenly all our forward line REMEMBERED that they are feckin Manchester United, and not SEDATIVE CITY. Valencia was watching Obertan, and thought to himself HELL I want some of that LOVE from the United crowd too, and he got truly stuck in as did the other lads. So glad Rooney went off!
November 21st, 2009 at 20:35
@Johnsom33: lol ya..i wish the silva twins put on more mass…they have everything except the strength and stamina to keep up…they both play really well in the starting half and lose their way there after. I thought valencia was really good and is showing his worth…he is brimming with confidence with the goals of late…and obertan needs to start more as usual
November 21st, 2009 at 20:38
@CraigMc: What Grog said mate!!
November 21st, 2009 at 20:39
Evra was the Man of the Match,no doubt…
November 21st, 2009 at 20:39
@Grognard: Feck me, have you lost your NERVE or what Grog! Did your truth go out the window???? Rooney is NEVER world class mate, well not my sort of world class anyway. He cannot cut it against the very best teams, which world class players can. What has he ever done in CL games when the trophy was at stake??? Did you see him playing for England against Brazil, and the other top teams – he is good Grog but not world class. I think you’ve been too feckin sedated on this board Grog since I was away working my arse off for my sweetheart of a future Misses and our gorgeous wee baby daughter. O how you have missed your sparring partner my mate GROGGIE!
.
November 21st, 2009 at 20:41
@edwin: What Groggie said my ARSE!
November 21st, 2009 at 20:45
Strange match. I thought the 3-0 scoreline was really flattering for us.
Some underwheling displays…
First 20min Giggs was poor but he picked up his game to end up one of our best players on the night.
Evra was just as good as he’s ever been. Wouldn’t guess he was playing 3 days earlier in one of the most important matches of his season so far.
Fletcher … What is the transfer value of Darren Fletch?
If Rodwell is worth 20 million then Fletcher is worth 50!!
Owen – poor. For most of the game was invisible. Had a good 15 minutes in the second half but even then failed to convert. I think he should be used as a super-sub. He seems to have more impact as such, while he generally underperforms when he is starting games.
Most of the others had fine performances. Rafael looked better than usual , Brown showing his class, Carrick was good, VDS safe, Valencia just ok,
Rooney as unlucky to have few actual shooting opportunities…
November 21st, 2009 at 20:47
@Johnsom33: Mate you are the only one with eyes and an honest assessment where Rooney is concerned! Good player, but he has too many long stretches of non effectivemess, and HE BOASTS LIKE FUCK about how he is the man and going to save United with all his goals. Yeah right, long time coming though Wayne. Almost halfway thru the season and what is his goal tally – eh? He is not world class, I really believe that mate!
November 21st, 2009 at 20:53
@Traverse: I can see your point Trav!
November 21st, 2009 at 20:53
Good ball controlling performance and some great play from our central midfielders which was encouraging. Fantastic goal by Fletcher, just a world class strike. Why can we never get a strike like that against Liverpool or Chelsea I wonder? What we do against the Everton’s of the world at home is expected and highly predictable. But some of that kind of quality needs to show up against the elite teams.
Three goals today from long distance. I cannot recall any good opportunities we had in the box at close range or any threat we had in the aerial game. Constant breakdowns by our attack in the final third and some very sloppy passing and decision making in that final third that makes me scream yet again about this club’s inability to manufacture a quality end product. All our goals came from what I would define as half chances. Rooney is nowhere to be found in the box and Owen seems to get open for a split second only to have the ball passed to him in an area where he cannot hit it first time or, his first touch betrays him.
Good to see our midfielders scoring goals and contributing but I still think they need to be more adventurous going forward and more imaginative in the final third. Too many telegraphed balls and highly predictable outlets or back passes but no through balls or chip lob passes or 1,2’s with forwards which are designed to break down a stubborn back four. For all our dominance, we lack that finished product when it comes to passes from our midfield, crosses from our wingers and fullbacks and instinctive predatory finishing from our forwards. I’m often remind of a group of sharks circling but being unable to break through a reinforced protective divers cage. We have to count on long range half chance efforts to score. When was the last time Rooney had a real shot on goal that was in the box? When are we going to see a counter attack where Owen is played in clear of any nagging defender? When will Rooney and Owen click as a combo like they did 5 years ago for England?
Yes we won comfortably and I am happy but I still find very little pleasure in the style of play we utilize and the lack of true quality in our skill positions. I want some flair, some imagination, some quality finishing. Fletcher offers us graft, hustle and hard work but when he is the only one providing the skill and finish, well then we have a problem. I am happy with Evra’s play as he goes up and down the left side and makes some really nifty runs and dribbles but will we ever see an end product from him that is worthy of his efforts? Valencia still puts me to sleep for a wide player. Rafael might have impressed many today but he needs to know when to go forward and stay back. He was beat a couple off times today but got away with it and one of those times was an offside goal by half a foot. I like him but for me, he is far from ready.
What a big difference a sharp EVDS makes for us. He had a strong game even though Everton only offered up some quality half chances, but still, he made some great plays especially on that diving run that got him injured as well as that save late in the game of Rodwell that Foster would have let in because it was the kind of chance that requires focus and concentration and not reflexes. Foster never makes those because he’s too caught up fighting himself in his head to be focused.
Good win but far from what I am expecting. The score makes it seem much better than it was, because some of our long range efforts actually went in for a change. We need to do a better job of creating more chances in the box and by our forwards or we are truly screwed. And finally, the central midfield combo that started the game today is the one I have been campaigning for from the beginning. It worked and so lets see more of it. Less of Anderson and Scholes please and the only change I would welcome is the return of Hargo.
November 21st, 2009 at 20:58
Rooney is still a good player but no where near what he was when he was 17-19. Then he was world class. Can you honestly compare the rooney that made his debut here to this one. Theyre two completely different players. Remember that goal against Nwecastle, I bet wel prob never see that again. Dont get me wrong hes still one of our best players when on form but a shadow of his former self. Hes no longer scary and all you hear is work, energy, workrate…lol
Rafael today showed why hes gonna be our right back brilliant,Evra too.
And what about Fletcher..Oh my lord the guy is now World class that goal just made me more certain.
I hope now we can put a run of games together, wins and more scorelines like these.
PS good to see arsenal lose and liverpool are defo out of the top 4
November 21st, 2009 at 21:05
@CraigMc: Love having you back bro, truly. Glad livfe is going great for you with your two beautiful ladies.
Now regarding Rooney. I have seen enough of this lad over 6 seasons to say that I definitely think he is world class but one must understand, that he is what is referred to as a defensive forward. His hard work and hustle from that position is definitely a rarity and his skill and vision is also great but his finishing is what I would consider to be streaky. His passing at times can be amongst the best i have ever seen from a forward, both long and short forms, but of late he has been fighting poor passing and indifferent form. Does that mean he is not world class? No way, he certainly is, but he is not presently playing like a world class player. I have said that for most of this season Rooney has been struggling and fighting himself trying to do too much and he actually looks tired and slower than usual and his concentration and focus because of the fatigue is showing. Frankly, he is in great need of a partner up front who will challenge him and also bring out the best in him. Neither Berbatov nor Owen seem to be able to do this. Also, he needs to be provided with far better service. I agree with you abouthis form of late, at times it has been total shithouse blues stuff, but this is not the regular norm for Wayne and he will snap out of it. He needs to be restede more often and he needs to have less responsibility placed upon him. His work ethic has been too good and it is beginning to hurt his game. That and smoking a few cigarettes (we do not refer to them as fags where I live as that is reserved for the Graham Le Saux’s of the world
) is his big problem. Good to have you back mate. 
November 21st, 2009 at 21:05
@Grognard: You said it exactly 5 YEARS ago…Both players and more disappointingly Rooney have Regressed. I understand Owen but Rooneys I dont get. He should be in his prime
November 21st, 2009 at 21:08
@CraigMc: Grognard is never wrong mate, you know that.
November 21st, 2009 at 21:09
Valencia would be great if he could use his other fucking foot…hes never used it only to run…f he could cut inside he would add bout 50% more to his game
November 21st, 2009 at 21:10
@NicoQB: Owen needs space to perform. He needs to be properly utilized in good constructive and visionary counter attacks, which we have nobody to quarterback because Ronaldo is no longer here.
November 21st, 2009 at 21:15
@Taehr: Rooney’s is very easy to understand. He works far too hard and runs himself into the ground needlessly at times. He smokes cigarettes which are reducing his lung capacity and tiring him out and he gets winded and starts struggling more. And above all, he needs to be rested by the Boss more often. He never sits him down for a game especially after a grueling international break where he has traveled and played two games for England. Instead he sits Berbatov down who doesn’t work at all? Problem is Fergie is too much of a coward to sit Rooney down because even a Rooney at 75% is too valuable to lose with the squad he presently has to work with. At least when he had Ronaldo he could have sat him down more then, and he still didn’t. The games and minutes are catching up to Rooney.
November 21st, 2009 at 21:16
At his best Rooney is still world class, but he’s just not very consistent. At times his passing is so poor it’s puzzling. I guess we just still expect too much from him. For crying out loud he was long dubbed the “white Pelé”, and that implies expectations well beyond just world class. It’s possible his best years are already behind him, but he’s still our most potent offensive player and probably still will be for many years to come.
November 21st, 2009 at 21:16
@Taehr: That would make his game shoot up to 52%.
Whoopie! 
Valencia is overrated rubbish and yet another stupid purchase by Fergie.
November 21st, 2009 at 21:18
Obertan needs to be more confident. I always go back to an 18 year old Ronaldo…he took on his man at every attempt and Gabriel needs to try it or at least half, too many backpassed but boy is he quick on those counters wow
November 21st, 2009 at 21:20
@CraigMc: Welcome back me man, Ive missed ya!
How is your daughter doing? She healthy? Well, with you as a father I am sure that at least she is safe! 
This place aint the same without you…
November 21st, 2009 at 21:21
@Grognard: Well at the time there werent really any alternatives…I think hes done pretty well..Rather him than Nani
November 21st, 2009 at 21:33
@Grognard: I think the problem is much deeper than that, it doesnt explain why his shooting is completely rubbish does it? did the see the shoot he took leading up to our second goal??
November 21st, 2009 at 21:35
@Anders: And why do we expect so much of him? Because he himself set the bar high with his exceptional world class play in the past. He needs to regain that form because he’s far from old or over the hill. Is it married life, having kids, smoking, partying? I have no idea but whatever it is, he needs to get himself turned around and stop with the bragging and finger pointing at his teammates and the Boss when things aren’t going his way. Is it possible he has lost a step so early in his career? Based on how he works his ass off, yes it is possible. I’ve seen it many times before with hockey players who have that same work ethic. Their light glows bright for a few years but it doesn’t have the longevity that others have.
November 21st, 2009 at 21:36
@Taehr: Yes I did and that bugged the Hell out of me too. He’s not concentrating and focusing on the ball as he should. That comes from fatigue.
November 21st, 2009 at 21:37
@Taehr: Is there a better midfield player in the Premiership than Fletcher? I don’t think so!
November 21st, 2009 at 21:38
@CraigMc: I have to agree on you on this. He lost possession to cheaply too many time. Rooney is not world class. He does have glimpses here and there, but that “glimpses” shit can only work for so long. Someone of his experience should be more consistent. His working ethic can only make up for so much and today he was even worse. He was like a brick wall, no control what so ever. Unfortunately I have no clue what to do with him. I mean he is the player that the SAF is building the team around, so the only thing we can hope for is for him to get better and very soon.
Evra was the man of match. Like someone else said “having Evra is like playing with extra winger”.
November 21st, 2009 at 21:48
@Grognard: Maybe but he hasnt played as much as say evra who played a full game on wednesday compared to rooney who had a full week without a game…and evra ran his arse off today If he is so tired why has he the energy to do everything but be a threat, when the majority of people start to talk bout ‘workrate’ from a striker it usually means there isnt much else ie tevez,not comparing them btw…I just think the spark is gone from Rooney…whether its smoking or him now lifting far too much weights in the gym i dont know but his feet are slow, he is slow, his first touch is poor. He was playing as many games at 19-20 but he was much more dangerous. Still a good player but not that good
November 21st, 2009 at 21:53
@frankie: At his job no fletch is now in the top 1 at defensive midfields and when hargo gets back, against the top 3 those two will be impenetrable
November 21st, 2009 at 21:56
@Grognard: But Ronaldo would probably have hogged the ball for himself. It is up to the passers of the team to give him service – Carrick, Berbatov…
But then when we are going to monopolise possesion and the opposition are going to park the bus, he loses much of his value. He will never be as good as Berbatov or Rooney in other aspects of attacking play, such as playmaking.
Hence why I think he would benefit more from being used in a supersub role a la Solskjaer than a starter. More often than not, when he started he did not have great games with us.
November 21st, 2009 at 22:03
Read. Laugh.
http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8751_5705269,00.html
November 21st, 2009 at 22:04
Man, Evra has got to be my favorite Utd player at the moment.. the guy is too funny
November 21st, 2009 at 22:07
@NicoQB:
saw that some days ago… hilarious 
love the trafiic light and the video evidence quips 
November 21st, 2009 at 22:13
I’ve found something I agree with Grognard. Again. Wow. Miracle. Wayne Rooney is a world class player. Though I’m sure he won’t agree with my theory on why he has regressed. Seriously though, Wayne Rooney is currently not so world class but ultimately he still is world class. He has definitely regressed in his game and that can’t be denied. Now we should understand that for every change there’s a force behind. In Wayne’s case that force is Ferguson. Now I’m sure most by now think I’m a Fergie hater but that’s not the truth. I’ve seen him build a lot of players but I’ve also seen him destroy and hinder many others. Rooney is one of those many. I always ask this question and noone seems to be able to answer it. Why is it all the best players that come to United regress the minute they set foot at Old Trafford? Why are we the only team with the excuse that players are not suitable for us when they flop? When Rooney arrived at United he was the biggest star in Britain and probably the most promising young player in world football. Fearless, brilliant technique, ultra creative, a scorer of some absolute gems and he could easily skip past 3 or 4 defenders and make things happen. As soon as Ferguson decided to temper with him, playing him all over the place especially to benefit dear Ronaldo, Rooney’s game took a huge knock. A striker’s greatest weapon is not his skill, it’s his confidence. Being played out of position, he could no longer be as effective as before. Chances became rare and so did the goals. Confidence was low. That’s why we can all forget those beautiful and audacious chips over the keeper. Those magnificent and perfect volleys. The long range ballistic missiles with gps accuracy. The unpredictable passes and lobs. He has no confidence to do those anymore. Unlike Nani’s case though I won’t lay the blame squarely on the manager. He tries too much to be the star player for the team and to step out of Ronaldo’s shadow. This causes him to despise simplicity and always look to do the extraordinary even if a simple and straightforward pass would suffice. But overall I’ve found the manager to be the guilty party. Same goes for Berbatov,Anderson, Nani, from our current squad. Loads more from before.
November 21st, 2009 at 22:21
@Jay wire: Complete rubbish…Fergie is the cause why we can still dream of title this season…Fergie has never told Berbetov not to score…How can you forget that Only Fergie has produced so many world class players…While discussing Rooney you forget Scholes,Giggs,Beckham,Keane,Cantona and so many others…
Did RVN lost his status as world class when he was here???
What about Evra who is the best left back in world???
November 21st, 2009 at 22:23
@Jay wire: Today the problem is that when Berbatov does not score against teams like Chelsea, You all blame Fergie and when he scores against Malta ,you all start shouting that look how he was well utilized there…
November 21st, 2009 at 22:29
btw, what is this blasphemy I read concerning Rooney!!?? and to think I defended Nani against his detractors when you were away Craig
He’s definitely not world class Rooney, at least not based on his performances over the last year or so. However, he isn’t as bad as is being insinuated here. Rooney, unfortunately has been overly pampered, mishandled, misused and over-stretched by Ferguson; all which have contributed to his regression. There’s no doubt that Rooney today is not as effective as the first few years he was with us. The boy was a livewire then and definitely world class. The thing about Rooney is he needs talented and intelligent players around him to be effective; Fergie has failed to provide this, instead he indulges Rooney’s marauding play and misuses him.
Rooney’s overiding qualities are his awareness, sharpness and game intelligence; qualities he is losing gradually due to those factors I mentioned. Give Rooney a compatible partner; play, sorry, force him to play in his proper position; and surround him with intelligent players and we will see the Rooney we all remember so fondly from those years ago. We are building the team around him, so it makes sense to play to his strengths like we did with Ronaldo.
November 21st, 2009 at 22:42
@Gabriel:
“awareness, sharpness and game intelligence”? if this are his qualities then he should be able to use them even if he plays with schoolchildren. He is an intelligent player and very hard working, but his technic and control have been letting him down for a long time now and these attributes have nothing to do with his teammates. Also world class players are the once who influence their teammates and not viceversa. That statement that he is a “world class” is based of glimpses and good patches and not consistency, so unless he does it on consistent bases there should not be and argument and BTW, it does not really matter whose fault it is that he is not that good.
November 21st, 2009 at 22:52
@Orez: Leave this debate of world class mate…
When Benitez can tell Johnson and Kuyt as world class , then Rooney is World’s best
November 21st, 2009 at 22:54
@Orez: Actaully at present what Rooney is doing ,the same thing Tevez also used to do…But still the biased ones here think that while Tevez was shit,Rooney is world class
November 21st, 2009 at 22:55
@ Red Rander : plz post one new thread on WORLD CLASS debate
November 21st, 2009 at 23:05
What’s with all the Rooney hatred? Accepted – he’s not going through a great phase, his passing and touch has been a little off too. No surprise then that all his doubters raise their voices at times like these!!! Ronaldo was even crappier many times last season, if you care to remember…no one ever said he wasn’t World Class.
I think Rooney had a decent game today – he brings much more to the team than just goals. And he tries to do things that some other players in our team can only dream of, so when they don’t come off, it doesn’t mean he is any worse! He was so close today to scoring a magic goal…that’s the kind of player he is.
You know he’s going to start off on a great scoring run very soon, so you Rooney haters may as well make hay when the sun shines then!
November 21st, 2009 at 23:13
.@ Owen – Okay this Malta stuff has to stop really. Berbatov has scored against teams like Germany, Czech Republic, Italy, Mexico, Netherlands, Cameroon etc. How can you say I forgot about the players Ferguson has brought up, when in one sentence I said “I’ve seen him build a lot of players but I’ve also seen him hinder many others”. I’m objective. There are two sides to the coin. If Ferguson is so blameless then why do we always have top players coming to Old Trafford and regressing. You shouldn’t have brought up Berba as an example of the unwarranted blame being laid on the manager. Ferguson with his own mouth and on television as millions were listening, made an astonishing confession. He said he didn’t know how or where to play Berbatov last season. I say astonishing because I’ve never heard such a statement from any coach or manager in the world of football. Then he goes on to say they THINK they now know how to play him. What? How about looking at how others have used him before. Ring up the bloody coach of Bulgaria and ask him. Talk to Martin Jol, call Ramos. Enquire. Watch dvds . Hey why not even ask the player. Last time I checked he could speak English. Simple. If you think. Yes I also blame Ferguson for Berba’s lack of goals. Not entirely but considerably. What, after such an astonishing revelation, it’s obvious he was being misused. Look at his record for each and every team he has played for and you’ll only notice decline from September 2008 and beyond. The guy is a serious goalscorer and at United a min of 25 is what we should be expecting per season as standard. If you think Ferguson’s contribution to Rooney’s regression, is minor , then you need to open your eyes.
November 22nd, 2009 at 0:23
That was a better performance. Unfortunately, again, it was without berbatov (who I like) which just complicates things.
Regarding Rooney, he done everything right apart from just that little bit extra in the final third. World class?? I dont know but at the same time he definetly is essential to our forward play whether you like it or not.
Regarding fletch’s strike… holy fuck that was better than Zidane’s goal at the champion League’s Final – it was better struck (I’m drunk by the way).
Overall, I’m positive about our season! We have it within ourselves to compete thats for sure. But we need, and i mean need, to keep the same team, or similar, for the next few matches anyway to get consistency.
On a side side note though, I’m not so sure about Rodwell cos, not to dwell on gossip but he was mentioned a lot, but if the rumours are true I’m not sure 20 mill is worth it!
Also someone needs to tell Rafael how to defend. Either that or make him a winger for fuck sake.
November 22nd, 2009 at 0:32
@owen: Good point about the tevez comparison
November 22nd, 2009 at 0:40
My beef with this team is that it does go to sleep to often. We dominated for large periods and we should more often than not get a result beyond doubt. But we slack off and invite the opposition to come forward. If we can get that killer instinct then we’re good. But who’s got it??? To be honest we’re relying on rooney to much but he’s more of a playmaker than finisher. Personally i would like to see rooney, owen, and berbatov on at the same time to see what they can create!
November 22nd, 2009 at 0:56
“I just don’t see us doing any business in January.” Please get a goal machine – bring back Van Nistelrooy
November 22nd, 2009 at 0:59
@Taehr: You aren’t an idiot mate, so why tall like one? You should know that over the years Rooney has been with United, he hardly sits out any games. Do you think a week off is going to make that much a difference? But if he sat him down for 8 out of 38 EPL matches a season and all League Cup matches as well as a few FA Cup early round games, he would be fresher for when it counts. Fergie needs to rest him because the longevity of too many seasons with little rest is catching up to him as well as some bad habits that have also started to break him down. Evra works hard but he is also half the size of Rooney.
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:00
@NicoQB: I can’t count the number of times Ronaldo was part of a counter attack where he had the ball and never hogged it. That’s a really unfair and untrue assessment. Go back and watch your games.
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:08
@antsBoy: We’ll be making hay for a very long time then Ants Boy, because Rooney is NOT DOING IT – sorry mate. He did not make a worthwhile contribution to todays game either – the play kept breaking down when the ball got to Rooneys boots far to often for my liking. By the way, why are we haters because we see things with Rooney as they are?
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:10
@owen: You got that right Owen – I so agree with you
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:11
@owen: If Rooney is worlds best mate, then they must have changed the terminology from World class, to WORLD CRASS!
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:13
@Jay wire: I’m truly flattered that you agree with mate. It’s almost as good as winning a lottery.
But seriously, yes Fergie has to take a lot of theblame because of the way he uses Wayne and because of the system and tactics we are currently using which ask Rooney to play the role of a defensive forward. A complete and total waste of a great player’s talent. So why then is Fergie doing this? Simple really. Fergie does not concern himself with the ego’s and personal goals of players. He only cares about one thing and that’s the team. The result after a match is all that matters to him and his years of experience tell him that the best thing for the team is to play Rooney all the time and have him track back and play a defensive role rather than an out and out striker like Capello uses him.
I’m not saying Ferguson is right, in fact I think he is smoking some kind of weed in his old age and it’ bringing on Dementia. But over the past three years we have won the league three times, the League Cup and most importantly the European Cup and so it is hard at times to argue with his mind set. Still I will agree with you because now Ferguson’s logic has been exposed as a complete farce and a fraud. He cannot continue to shackle Rooney’s offensive talents like he has because now he is Ronaldoless. He needs Rooney’s offensive game more than ever. Problem is, I think his past usage of Rooney has burned the player out. It’s not a lack of confidence, it’s his tired body is no longer connected to his tired brain.
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:14
@Orez: Give yourself a round of applause for your response to Gabriels post mate
. Cos you said it as it is!
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:17
@Gabriel: The fact that Rooney needs talented and intelligent players around him to be effective – PROVES HE IS NOT WORLD CLASS Gabriel mi man! World class players make it happen themselves!
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:20
@owen: Unfortunately it’s not entirely rubbish mate. Gergie has his own selfish agenda too. He wants to win and he has picked up things over the years from the negative dark lords of football, the Italians and he has incorporated them with the team. Many strikers in Italy have the same role Rooney has. Fergie wants ball control over anything. He is a believer and a convert to the theory that the team with the vast majority of possession will win. Therefore he wants his forwards to track back and assist the midfield in that goal. It’s ugly, it’s boring but it is for the most part effective. I would rate our starting 11 as third best in the league right now but he still has the team playing better than the sum of all their parts due to this philosophy. I personally hate what he has done to the team’s style of play but i thank him every day for our successes. But he is not faultless here and that is the bottom line.
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:20
Oh and Gabriel – thanks much mate for the Nani thing, but I think Little Man is on his way out, and he should be because United FANS and Sir Fergie have treated him like shit. He is becoming the star player for Portugal, and in Ronnie’s absence is the catalyst that got them to the world cup. Shame once again SAF doesn’t know how to use players
.
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:24
@Grognard: If Fergie wants BALL CONTROL above all else Groggy, then Rooney is not his man surely! Anyway, can’t keep blaming SAF, Rooney doesn’t ever do it for England when it really matters either
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:27
@Grognard: That’s when we had Maestro Ronnie though Grog – sorry but it’s true!
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:36
@Orez: You got Rooney summed up pretty accurately mate. Rooney is operating on his past reputation I believe. If anyone else put in some of the non entity performances Rooney does for United, only playing in stop/start spells where performances concerned, that player would be out of the team until he learnt to be MORE CONSISTENT – example for you – mi man Fletcher. Fletch was out if he gave below par performances!
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:39
@Footy4Eddy:
– Eddi mi man, how you then mate? You got anything sorted yet re what club you will be joining for your future in pro football?
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:42
@Anders: He’s NEVER fulfilled his potential though, has he Anders. I certainly don’t see him as the white Pele – thats laughable!
November 22nd, 2009 at 1:49
@Grognard: Match of the Day HIGHLIGHTED Owen’s great ability to find space, play very EFFECTIVELY off the last man, and usually score important goals when one on one with the goalie. They also highlighted how United’s MF and other forwards are unable to get those telling final balls in to Owen, when he has geniously got away from the last man, only to be let down by his colleagues stray or inaccurate passes to him. Shame really, because he would have scored goals for us IF our players had a final telling thru ball in their armoury, but alas they don’t. It is always too far ahead of Owen, or doesn’t reach him at all when he gets into great positions waiting for the ball!
November 22nd, 2009 at 2:10
@CraigMc: Not doing it for England? Who’s been England’s NUMBER ONE best player for the last 10 games??? Easily it’s been Rooney. Now just because he looked overshadowed in the last game against Brazil (due to a very bare squad around him), you say he’s not being doing it?
Please mate, you’ve been one of the first ones to jump on Rooney whenever you get the chance, so I know for a fact there is an unfair bias there.
November 22nd, 2009 at 2:13
The problem with Rooney is that he is being projected by the media as England’s saviour, the white pele..all that. It’s upto us, the fans to clear the truth from the BS. If you believed everything you hear and expect him to score EVERY game or be the best player on the pitch, then surely you’d be disappointed.
November 22nd, 2009 at 2:14
Maybe everyone should be reminded that WORLD CLASS players can have rough patches too and they don’t need to sparkle in every game
November 22nd, 2009 at 2:16
doom doom doom. its all doom and gloom, rooney”s not doing this fergie”s lost it, i even read he”s smoking weed in one rant, we just win 3 nil for feck sake, in case you”s all forgot we lost the best player in the world last summer and we”re still second in the league and played chelsea of the pitch 2 weeks ago, and that was with a 30 million pound striker out injured, we”re in there challenging home and abroad, wait till the weed smoking knight leave”s us, then ya”s will have something to rant about. MUFC
November 22nd, 2009 at 2:41
@antsBoy: I would argue that you have it backwards. He is a good player who has world class patches.
November 22nd, 2009 at 3:30
@Johnsom33: You can see the glass half empty or half full. But you can’t deny the fact that any other club in the EPL, or anywhere in the world for that matter, would bite our hands off for him!!!
Anyways, I can’t be bothered to be more judgmental mate. Everybody can have their view, that’s fine. The only thing that pisses me off is that we have had a bloody good game today, won 3-0 and for some obscure reason we all are debating on Rooney’s worth. It’s hilarious!!
November 22nd, 2009 at 3:40
@antsBoy: I called him a good player, how is that glass half empty? I agree with you that any other team would love to have him, I’m glad to have him.
November 22nd, 2009 at 3:56
@Footy4Eddy: I think the illuminati have kidnapped RedRanter, and installed this Schiavone character in his place.
November 22nd, 2009 at 4:34
@antsBoy: it’s a rant site, so there’s always gotta be something to rant about. It always happens, win, draw or loss. Which brings me to my second point; we have the look of a team with no hunger.
We constantly play at second gear, only hitting top gear when we are losing or playing top opposition. I feel our players are so used to winning, they are probably beginning to have a blase attitude and lack of urgency towards lower opposition; afterall, they’ll still win. It’s just something I’ve been pondering over and it helps explain our lukewarm performances.
November 22nd, 2009 at 4:46
Hargreaves was not good whenever he played for us in the middle of the pitch. He was quality when he played on the wing and at right back. But not in the centre.
November 22nd, 2009 at 5:04
Just finished watching the game (worked all fucking day!) and am a little conflicted as to whether we were that good or they were that bad.
I thought Evra had a great game and was clearly MOM to me. Rooney looked hungry but not hungry enough, Owen was a factor but really doesn’t seem strong any more – certainly not strong enough to win a 50/50 tackle, and VDS proved that a trustworthy GK can make the the entire back line look like a rock!!
We pressed the whole game, and that’s a good sign. It made Everton play off the back foot constantly, and that was their downfall.
The degree of skill that United portrayal was somewhat understated, and I do hope we can do better than this, but there was an urgency that said that “winning this was vital”!!
November 22nd, 2009 at 5:42
@Gabriel: I agree mate. Something isn’t quite right..and maybe it has to do with two things:
1) The fact that we give away the ball so cheaply these days, seems like we’re not focused enough or something.
2) We seem more workman-like in our approach..I mean we seem like the kinda team that does JUST well enough to win, but doesn’t have the firepower to destroy teams any more. If Barca were to play us anytime now, I bet we would see a replay of last year’s final again. We didn’t have an answer then, I still don’t think we have an answer now.
November 22nd, 2009 at 5:50
@CraigMc: I honestly think Rooney is having a bad season so far. He has hurried his passes and his efforts on goal – I think he’s capable of much more than this. But the effort and the vision is still there, he just needs to tune up and become more vital to our attack.
I do think it’ll happen.
But I disagree with you about Owen, I really don’t think he’s got the bslls to hustle a goal for United right now. He has a sense of where he should be, but he doesn’t have the muscle to convert this into anything.
He seems, shall we say, “out of his league”.
November 22nd, 2009 at 5:54
Anybody know whats going on with Berbatov.
I mean is he injured or something???
November 22nd, 2009 at 5:56
@CraigMc: And who on England ever really does it when it counts? It’s clear you aren’t coming around to Rooney mate but then neither am I to your anti Rooney sentiments. And as for Nani (who I still like) never has so much praise been delivered to someone with so little offered. Go ahead blame Fergie for everything mate. The man has just brought us 11 EPL titles, five FA Cups, 2 European Cups, 1 European Cup Winners Cup, 3 League Cups and one World Club Cup not to mention three league Doubles, two European Doubles and an incredible Treble and the likes of CraigMC has the unmitigated nerve to question his use of players and tactics to defend the likes of Louis Nani over the great man and his accomplishments? That’s why I love ya Bro, because I do the same thing every day. I just don’t agree with you over Rooney. Yes Fergie has often used the Roon wrongly, for the Roon’s personal stats but never for the team’s. The team always comes first with Fergie and after all the statistics proving success that I have just offered you, really, should you or I be that critical of the man? We all have to ask ourselves the question, are we bigger fans of the individual player or players or are we first and foremost fans of the team as a whole? If it’s the team, then we must support our manager no matter what. Oh question him, get upset with him, throw insults at him, but at the end of the day, we all must be willing to kill or be killed for the man. He deserves that much from all of us.
November 22nd, 2009 at 6:00
@CraigMc: And Pep Guardiola won everything last year because that’s when he had Messi. Every manager who has won something big has had that one special player that allowed him to do more than the others. I love Rooney, I think he is world class but he is not Cristiano Ronaldo. I actually think the term world class is liberally used out there. If I was to compare Rooney to Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Zidane, Pele, Maradona then NO, he is not world class. But so many players today are considered world class who do not rank up with those great stars. Ronaldo however is.
November 22nd, 2009 at 6:00
@Sir Red: It’s tough to even remember how he played for us. But Hargo is much more effective as a holding player, and as an enforcer. The creative role is really not his bag!!
November 22nd, 2009 at 6:04
@CraigMc: I love it when I am proven right. See what I mean. I think Owen does a great job every game out but he never gets the ball serviced to him enough or efficiently to allow him the right number of cracks at goal. Thanks for pointing that out because I have brought up that very fact about Owen many times. If Owen were playing up front for Chelsea, he’d have ten league goals by now.
November 22nd, 2009 at 6:07
@RicoTheRed: Spoken like a true blind optimist. If the gloom and doom is getting to you mate, then may I suggest Prozac.
November 22nd, 2009 at 6:09
@Johnsom33: Barcelona or Real Madrid would dump 80 million right now to get him if they thought there was a sliver of a chance they could get him. Every great footballing country in the world thinks he is world class and a fantastic footballer and all we do as Man Utd fans is bitch about him even when he works his ass off for us every game.
November 22nd, 2009 at 6:11
@antsBoy: I think folks are just a bit frustrated by the clubs lack of firepower up front mate. Understandable but as I have said a million times, it is not the strikers fault as much as it is the tactics we use and the midfield’s inability to find a crack and deliver great service in advantageous positions for our forwards.
November 22nd, 2009 at 6:18
@Grognard: …and the stars are not really aligned, and the interplay between VDS, Vidic, Brown, Rafael, Fletcher, Carrick, Giggs, Valencia, and Evra is so poor, that the only they can be held responsible for the shortcomings of Rooney and Owen!!
November 22nd, 2009 at 6:51
@Redrich: No Rooney and Owen have to take some of the responsibility to. It’s not a simple solution. Midfield provides no service, forwards do not get in the box and into open spaces enough and Fergie’s negative tactics all contribute to our forwards not scoring goals. But if I had to put most of the blame on one of those three factors, it would be the lack of service. I think that is 50% of the problem, Fergie’s tactics are 30% and the forwards own inabilities amount to 20%.
November 22nd, 2009 at 9:29
I saw the banner – the ‘White Pele’ one – I thought it showed a pretty good sense of humour.
The ‘World Class’ thing going on… maybe it is just that if a player is going to play in the world cup, he is eligible for the ‘World Class’ branding.
‘World Class’ these days is used with the same degree of accuracy and pertinence as does the saying “Mrs Redknapp could’ve scored it”.
November 22nd, 2009 at 9:46
When Ronaldo’s transfer was announced, a lot many here said ‘Fuck off Ronaldo, we’ve got Rooney’ or ‘who needs Ronaldo when Rooney will bang em in for us’ etc etc. Except for a stubborn few, everyone else was in that bracket. Now suddenly most of em turn around and say he ain’t ‘world class’. Happens to all of us.
Let’s forget about what ‘class’ he is. Admit it first that he is not a great striker, he does not have the composure in finishing we all wish to see and he is not prolific. He was NEVER any of these things.
Value him for what he is… at the moment he is our biggest hope for anything really. That itself is a huge weight on his shoulders.. much more than Frodo carrying the ‘Ring’ into Mordor. And the fact that he carries it without fuss, is enough to overcome the fact that he isn’t world class. In any case, who’d be okay with him going to Barca or Real or any other team?
PS: I think it’s time we convert him to the scholes AMF role.
November 22nd, 2009 at 10:58
@Rahul: I am glad that you have come with that point. For last couple of years I have been saying it my freinds that we are wondering who will replace Scholsey. But, we don’t need to search for it specially when you have a player with all the atributes and written class all over him. Thats ROONEY. I mean he is quick, is good at hustling and defending, he has great vision, great passing, great long range shooting, and whats more that he has the ability to arrive in the box late and make things happen. Then why not try him there. I mean we have already wasted the lad’s ability by playing him to all sorts of position, and almost made him LW then why not try this. It will also allow us to use Berba-Owen as the partership which I have a feeling will be better (than Rooney-Berba) because the ability of Owen to find the spaces in behind the defense and ability and vision of Berba to make pass happen. So all in all
“I am all for this change of ROONEY for AMF which we are badly searching for”…..
November 22nd, 2009 at 11:09
@RicoTheRed: May be I saw a different match than all the doomsayers but I think it was one of our best performance. Give away the ball cheaply? On the contrary, I thouhgt our passing was excelent. There is obviously a problem upfront with not having a natural finisher (Owen tries but he is not good enough)or somebody that can attack the crosses. I think our defence was excelent (Wes Brown is better than Rio right now), Fletch and Carrick had both a great game. Evra was brilliant and Valencia was pretty good as well.Talking of which, what about convering him into a striker? He is strong, he has lots of pace and a decent shot.
November 22nd, 2009 at 11:11
@Rahul: My definition of a world class player is a player that can get into any side in the world. Despite his inconsistency, what team in the world would rooney not get into? Fletcher in the form hes in would walk into almost all teams in the world, so for me, hes world class. Someone like carragher isnt world class for me, because he wouldnt walk into teams like you walk into macdonalds.
November 22nd, 2009 at 11:16
Bloody hell, Gary Neville has his own coloumn for Maltese Sunday Times. He’s contraditing the King though.
November 22nd, 2009 at 11:50
@Dan: I’m sorry, but Fletcher wouldn’t walk into Barcelona, nor would he walk into Chelsea.
November 22nd, 2009 at 12:14
@CraigMc: No of course he hasn’t, but then again our expectations have been exaggerated ever since his debut. If we lower them a few few notches we’ll see better what a good player we have on our hands and appreciate him better. He is in poor form at the moment though, and yesterday was no exception.
November 22nd, 2009 at 12:31
@Anders: I wouldn’t say his form is poor, to me its the same as always. Its probably just that everyone has expected, himself also, that he would pick up from ronaldo but that hasn’t happened and I don’t think he will. He’ll probably have his random goal scoring spurts. His passing has dipped a bit and he sometimes holds onto the ball a bit longer than he should. But apart from that he still works his socks off and is a menace.
I certainly think he’s a better player when he doesn’t play alongside berbatov. He and owen combined well yesterday and he set owen up a couple of times who really should of scored.
November 22nd, 2009 at 13:04
@Grognard: He hardly sits out games yes…but he has has got plenty of injuries during his united career that should be the rest period you talk about. Even this season he was out for about two weeks. England were not at Euro 2008 so he had a full summer and even this summer he had a break when he was busy smoking on some boat. I dont see why he should be fatigued at the start of a season.
November 22nd, 2009 at 13:08
Interesting article in NOTW. Apparentely Fergie plans to ditch Foster, Vidic and Carrick. Foster because of his rant after getting dropped. Vidic because he is irritable and lashing out making dodgy tackles on the youngsters in training (Kjaer is lined up as a replacement) and Carrick because he isn’t doing enough (Modric is lined up as a replacement)
Pure tabloid rumours but a bit juicier than the usual.
November 22nd, 2009 at 13:20
Rooney for 80m? Let’s get real.
November 22nd, 2009 at 13:29
Yes get real please, he is priceless.
November 22nd, 2009 at 13:55
@Redrich: I’m not suggesting Hargreaves is to be used in a creative capacity. All I’m saying is that whenever he played in the middle for us, he was very poor. His best performances came when he was on the wing. For example, the CL final against Chelsea and then another game against Roma.
November 22nd, 2009 at 14:02
@Sir Red: His debut against city wasnt poor…And the games against liverppol and arsenal with anderson he was terrific
November 22nd, 2009 at 14:19
@Taehr: I thought he was average/poor in the middle and outstanding on the right. But thats just me.
November 22nd, 2009 at 15:16
@ Sir Red – It’s not anything personal, but I don’t think you actually know who Owen Hargreaves is. Average and poor in the middle? What? Are you alright mate? Did you watch the game against Fulham, or vs City or vs Arsenal or vs Liverpool. Wow. In the last two together with Anderson, they were pretty much the visa guys in midfield. To pass through or to be seen in the midfield country you had to apply from them. And they were not generous. I can’t even remember a single game when Hargo was not in top form. Not just above average, but top top form. I’ve seen strange things on this forum but wow this is amazing
November 22nd, 2009 at 15:33
Anderson+Hargreaves was our best CM partnership since 2007. Their performance level along with the rest of the team didnt reach further heights, at that time we were unplayable…
November 22nd, 2009 at 16:04
@Red Ranter: He would!
November 22nd, 2009 at 16:09
@frankie: dont know about best performance of the season m8, but if our team was as bad as some of the people on this site make out, we would be in the bottom 3.we may stuggle abroad this year but in the league i think we”ll be right in there come may, because nobody in the prem is setting the world alight. and Grognard m8 you need the prozac, i am just happy we”re in there competing for the league, if you had read into my rant you would of understand that with ronaldo going you cant expect the team to just roll over other teams. we may need a season or two to adjust, so we all might need the prozac m8, its just some of us can handle it better than others. MUFC
November 22nd, 2009 at 16:09
@colver: Interesting!
If Vidic does not peach his tally of 6 goals per season and still manages to get sent off 4 times per season, then an able replacement should not be frowned upon.
November 22nd, 2009 at 16:10
Unfortunately I missed the United v Everton match, the first I’ve missed so far this season, but from the highlights on MOtD United are coming along well.
Who says we can’t replace Ronaldo’s goals! Fletcher, Carrick, Valencia all capitalising, with Fletcher in particular showing our strikers how it really should be done. Valencia’s looking more and more like a United player, becoming patient and intelligent with his passing, and in the meantime working in a few shots. He’s moving into the attacking areas, cutting inside where he can like Ronaldo used to do, rather than just running to the touchline to squeeze a cross in. And it’s good to see our Welsh Wizard back to his fine form, I really think he needs to be recognised as one of football’s greats, globally.
Owen’s movement is fantastic, he appears out of nowhere sometimes, he just needs to bag some of his chances, or sometimes be a little more patient and pass the ball back into the area once he’s dragged the keeper out wide of the goal – a’laFifa.
Carrick is hitting a bit of form and proving he’s not just dead weight. Obertan’s looking very useful also, and Rafael’s looking to give our defense some attacking symmetry, he’s probably shading Fabio in an attacking sense.
I won’t get too ahead of myself though, Everton were missing a few talented players but hopefully it’s a sign of what’s to come and United can go on a good run now, we wouldn’t want Fergie to get too frustrated up in the stands would we?
November 22nd, 2009 at 16:16
@Grognard: Prozac – He’s a great player from the Eastern block countries isn’t he Grog?
.
November 22nd, 2009 at 16:19
@Grognard: Same here Grog, I have been batting in Owen’s corner from his signing. He is an excellent player off the last man, he will always make space and break thru any defence, but our lot are pathetic at giving him the class service and excellent thru balls he needs! If we can see it, why can’t any of the others eh?
November 22nd, 2009 at 16:21
@Jaywire: Nothing personal taken mate
But the key wording in your post was when he was paired with Anderson. Which was not a lot. Most of the time Hargreaves played in the middle, he was paired with Carrick and I really did think he was poor in those occasions. I’m not saying he is a bad player, what I am saying is that he was superb on the right and below par in the middle.
November 22nd, 2009 at 16:24
@Grognard: Your right about you doing the same things everyday Grog, but not about the rest
. I AM CONVINCED somebody on this bloody blog has slipped the prozac into your coffee when you weren’t looking Grog. Your dark Lord-ism has up and gone – but not before time you got a bit of over enthusiasm Groggy!
November 22nd, 2009 at 16:30
@Redrich: Rooney needs to tune up and become vital to our attack? And how long exactly have we all been saying that Rich, it seems like bloody forever! As for Owen, I swear that IF he is given the right ball in to his feet at the right tempo, you will get exactly the genious goals that you saw scored last minute against Man Pity!
November 22nd, 2009 at 16:35
@Redrich: When Obertan came on, our football got to hurricane proportions, it was like the Charge of the feckin light brigade for the last 20 minutes or so. That is the United of Old, all high energy and GUTS – the message to the opposition ‘ Be beaten or DIE.’
November 22nd, 2009 at 16:46
@RicoTheRed: Ummmmm someone who has become used to acclaiming MEDIOCRE limp dicked performances I see. Yesterday we came alive for last half hour, but the other hour all the fans on the terraces were anaethetised. I for one don’t enjoy being comatosed mate. It isn’t the Man United I followed home and away for year upon year, because you could guarantee we would be in for the joy ride of our lives. Chelsea have become the high scoring, entertaining United at present, and we the boring just do what it takes to win Chelsea of yore. I want the Old Man UNited back again, and wonder where they were abducted too. We used to terrorise teams coming to Old Trafford etc, now nobody is really afraid of us – what’s that all about, ask yourself mate?
November 22nd, 2009 at 16:50
@antsBoy: Mate I would love Rooney if he did it for me but he doesn’t – sorry! He is over rated when it really matters, but Ronnie did make him look so very much better and helped Rooney’s scoring record – I’ll give you that.
November 22nd, 2009 at 16:50
@Ober-fan:
Mate, it can be clearly seen from your comments that you’ve not watched the match!!
November 22nd, 2009 at 16:54
@CraigMc: Heya, craigmeister!
What’s with all this Ober – love?
Won’t little man Nani get jealous?
November 22nd, 2009 at 16:55
@NicoQB: Oh I watched it mate, AND again on MOTD. I wouldn’t comment if I hadn’t watched it, without saying that I was commenting from hearsay. So no idea what you are talking about Nico
. Just because I don’t agree with YOU doesn’t mean I haven’t seen the game – get real will you!
November 22nd, 2009 at 16:59
@NicoQB: Obertan Revved up the crowd mate who had been mostly snoozing, and who can blame them
. He also revved up his sedated colleagues all around him. That’s what I noticed. A bit of excitement for fucks sake – instead of this BLAND baloney dished up to us regularly. I just enjoy ALL ACTION games, and we used to get that every week. I WANT IT BACK 
.
November 22nd, 2009 at 17:04
@CraigMc: OYY! Dont you try to spoil my great work of making Grog enthusiastic! I spent a lot of energy, and look at him now! All fluffy and playful, soft as a cotton candy!
November 22nd, 2009 at 17:04
@Rahul: Well I am one of those stubborn few who believed Rooney couldn’t do it all on his own but that I still believe he is world class. Rooney is an all round forward. He is not an out and out striker like Torres or Huntelaar. He scores but he is not prolific. What he offers to a team that those other goal scoring forwards don’t is vision, passing ability, imagination, work ethic, ability to track back and defend and 90 minutes of energy.
Now to be fair, he hasn’t been at his best for a while now and i have given my reasons as to why, but he still is in my books as world class. But the weight of a team’s goal scoring fortunes has been placed on his shoulders and that is not fair to him because Fergie’s tactics and demands of Wayne have taken him from being that prolific striker who debuted for us with 3 goals to a workaholic player who struggles to find his finesse and skill due to fatigue. It does not help that our midfield isn’t more of a support to him and his fellow strikers and it is unfortunate that his style of play is so difficult to coordinate and create a partnership with other forwards. All these factors are hurting Wayne and it’s up to Fergie more than Rooney to alter things in order for him to improve.
November 22nd, 2009 at 17:08
@RicoTheRed: Oh we don’t all need the prozac mate, because we are all sedated on the terraces with Man United’s snooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooze football – zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
.
November 22nd, 2009 at 17:12
@Red Ranter: Perhaps not Chelsea but I see him as being equal if not better than both Ya Ya Toure or Keita at Barcelona. As a DMF I have come around and believe there are not many better. As CMF he is still pretty damned good but no he is not Xavi or Iniesta but then again it’s Barca’s attacking style that keeps him out of their lineup, not his lack of ability. They want their midfielders to be attack first, defend second. Fletcher is the other way around. Only Essien would keep him out of Chelsea as Ballack is getting up there and could be moved aside for him. He is exactly what is missing at Liverpool and at Arsenal. I wouldn’t have said this last year but this year I would, we are damned fortunate to have him and I praise Fergie for having the belief to stick with him when and others were demanding Melo, Toure or somebody else be signed. Right now I wouldn’t taken anyone other than Essien over him.
November 22nd, 2009 at 17:13
@Footy4Eddy: Oh dear, sorry mate I didn’t realise
. Well now I know who is responsible for Grog’s prozac induced optimism – it’s Eddi mi man 
. Ok then mate, I will let it be 
November 22nd, 2009 at 17:17
@Taehr: Yes but injuries that mount up also contribute to a player slowing down or losing some effectiveness. Persistent leg injuries have been known to cause players to lose a step over a shorter period of time than had they not lost a step. Personally though, I think smoking and partying too much in Malta and other places as well as his marriage and fatherhood have caused him to lose focus and his edge. The mistakes he is making out there are all focus and concentration related. I think fatigue is causing them but it could also be his own personal life that has caused him to lose that edge that makes the difference between world class and international or continental class.
November 22nd, 2009 at 17:20
@colver: What a load of crap. Not you mate, the article. Yes I agree about Foster and yes it is possible that he could want Modric because Modric is capable of playing in the middle as well as on the left side but the Vidic stuff is strictly fantasy. If he is lining Kjaer up, it’s because of Rio’s declining form and advancing age, not Vidic.
November 22nd, 2009 at 17:22
@Johnsom33: It might sound ridiculous to you but there are clubs in Spain and in Italy who would gladly pay a hefty amount to get him. Romuors just last week were touting Barca as paying that amount to get him. Now I don’t believe these rumors but I do believe that these elite teams think very highly of Rooney because they have all faced him and seen what he is able to do. And Man City would pay 100 million to get him if they thought there was a chance.
November 22nd, 2009 at 17:24
@Sir Red: He was never poor for us in the middle. I honestly don’t know what you are talking about. Yes he did shine on the right side in his times out there but his role out there was different and it allowed people to see more of his pace and crossing ability. In the middle he strictly concentrates on defense and i think he did a great job.
November 22nd, 2009 at 17:25
@CraigMc:
November 22nd, 2009 at 17:27
@CraigMc: Because nobody has the gifted vision and intelligence you and I have mate.
November 22nd, 2009 at 17:37
@CraigMc: I can’t win with you bro. Seriously. When the “Dark Lord” is at his best and being all negative, you complain and even have threatened to take a break away from the blog due to my negativity. Now that I am honestly positive or less negative, you complain that I am on Prozac.
Forgive me but I am confused.
What I do is not an act mate. When i am pissed off with the team, the manager, the world, I say i and I say it in stereo with Dolby sound. But when I honestly do not feel that mad or that concerned about an issue, I don’t go over the top like that. I am not going to get upset about Rooney right now because I do not think it warrants it. As for Fergie, well he is on a short leash and it takes little to bring out my rage, but even he deserves more respect for his accomplishments than many are giving him. As negative as i have been over the years, i have always stated my love and respect for the Boss. He is far from perfect but lets face it, how many others have done what he has? The answer is NONE. My biggest concern with him is that his advancing age and impending retirement is causing him to change things too drastically and has made him ultra cautious and almost cowardly in his approach to the game and especially to the bigger teams.
Now if you want to see me rage and rant like a Hell bent banshee, just get me started on the Glazer’s. What i would give for myself to be in a locked room with the Glazer’s. Man the carnage, the horror. I hate and despise them with every bone of my being. Nobody brings me more to a rage than them, Real Madrid and Rafa. Hell, not even Chelsea and Arsenal upset me as much anymore.
November 22nd, 2009 at 17:39
@CraigMc: A lot of the same things that you say in support of Owen can also be contributed towards Rooney. He needs better service too, especially on counters.
November 22nd, 2009 at 17:45
@CraigMc: I honestly don’t know what you are talking about mate. I thought the last 15 minutes of the game died a solid death. United got their cushion and then called the dogs off. As for Obertan, I saw some nimble footwork but I also saw a player who still lacks confidence at challenging an opponent. His step overs and dribbles were all of the static variety and he is showing me a tremendous unwillingness to use his left foot and to move one one one to his left. He is far from aggressive but i do see enough in him to be encouraged. You easily get blindsided by flashy wingers with no substance mate. Not an insult, just an observation. You have built Nani to be something he is not (I too am somewhat guilty of that) and now it’s Obertan’s turn. Yet you dump on one of the top ten players in world football like he is some kind of misfit unfit to be a United player. Seriously bro, it’s getting old and a bit odd.
November 22nd, 2009 at 17:51
SPURS HAVE GONE MENTAL!!!
November 22nd, 2009 at 17:57
@CraigMc: The game has changed drastically over the ast three to four years mate. No longer do minnows come to OT and try to compete with us like in old times. Now they park the bus 100% of the time and defend as if their lives depended on it. It’s tough to break down that kind of style when nobody on your team can cross or get by a fullback, or when you do not have a genius visionary in midfield like a Riqueleme, Silva , Fabregas, Arshavin or Xavi who can perform the right kind of touch pass that breaks down that wall. Then again we do not have that one element that I still think applies in the EPL. A goal poacher. Someone who plays in that box all day long. Right now however he would suffer like Rooney, Berba and Owen because unless our service and supply improves, Gerd Muller and Pele would starve of goals out there playing for United.
United have been forced to play differently because the game today requires large squads and also requires patience. Patience requires ball control and where this kind of ball control gets cheers and “Ole’’s” from fans in Spain, Italy and South America, it bores the likes of you and me to an extent. 4-5-1’s and 4-2-3-1’s have taken over the game and congested the midfield so much so that the 4-4-2 that we played in 1999 would be a massive failure now. We would often lose possession and we would be constantly caught on the counter. You don’t have to believe me but I speak the truth. Read a book called “Inverting the Pyramid” and you will see that I am right. Even the clubs (mostly minnows) that still play a more old school English style have adapted to one forward up front and play nothing but direct balls which get them nowhere unless they park the bus and wait for a break. It’s sad but that is today’s new world order in football. There are few Barcelona’s out there. And we certainly aren’t that anymore. You want us to play better and play more champagne football, then get the glazer’s to fork over the money to buy some quality midfielder, wingers and forwards, otherwise, get used to this drudgery. It’s no longer the beautiful game mate.
November 22nd, 2009 at 17:58
@Grognard: I agree about Obertan, he hasn’t shown me anything yet. His flashy footwork worries me because of his inability to make it count for anything.
We need some better production of that left flank, not fancier showmanship!
November 22nd, 2009 at 17:58
If Hargo comes back fighting fit and proves me wrong, I’ll be the first to throw an egg at my face. Until then, I stand by my position that he played better on the right for us than he did in the middle.
P.S. Spurs NINE – Wigan 1!!!!!
November 22nd, 2009 at 18:00
@CraigMc: He revved up the simpleton’s in the crowd with flash but no substance. I guess that group also gets excited when bright and shiny objects are shined in front of their bean counter faces. He did absolutely nothing mate but mimic and paralyzed Ronaldo. If that excites you, may I suggest a couple of shots of adrenaline to get your heart going again.
November 22nd, 2009 at 18:01
@Footy4Eddy: Eddy’s the man. He is my mentor. He is the man who has brought positive energy and positive vibes to the Grognard. Before you know it Groggy will be dancing and singing rap in the streets of Vancouver too.
November 22nd, 2009 at 18:05
@Redrich: He seems to have the skills but not the confidence to go at a defender mate. Once he proves to me that he has the ability, then I will jump on his bandwagon. Crikey, I remember Ronaldo’s first game for us. He went at every defender he could find and won every confrontation. He got me off of my chair and got me screaming at the tv in joy as I told my friend that day to watch out for this kid, he would one day be the best. I was proven right then.
November 22nd, 2009 at 18:18
@Footy4Eddy: anyone see the spurs game what the feck was going on for them to score so many? did they line the field in topless perfect ten models? dear god give me some of what defoe ate this morning.
November 22nd, 2009 at 18:32
And that Wigan side beat Chelsea 2-1?!
Fucks sake, either Tottenham should really be rated this season or Chelsea really suck donkey dick!
November 22nd, 2009 at 18:41
Defoes price just went up ten fold. Fuck, me.
November 22nd, 2009 at 18:45
Ive always rated Defoe, but my God I never expected something like that!
November 22nd, 2009 at 19:03
@Grognard: And to push on from those points, the standout players that, alone, can turn a game on it’s head are the ones you must pursue.
They are the ones that cannot be defended by these tactics, cannot be negated by bullish play and will not be denied the glory that is deserving of individual brilliance.
They are the gatekeepers of this sport, holding the keys that can unlock negative tactics and the minds of those that devise them.
The team that United have right now is a case in point. They are fairly solid at most positions and they usually put in a good game against most sides, but to excel and to gain the edge that would push them to the acme of their potential, they need 1 or 2 of these types of players.
November 22nd, 2009 at 19:28
@Footy4Eddy: Took the words out of my head.
November 22nd, 2009 at 19:56
If you think the Irish are pissed at Henri, get a load of this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92UvNvkyfaw
November 22nd, 2009 at 20:01
@CraigMc: alright craigMc, its not that i have come to accept our performances but we have lost alot of our flair players over the years and really replaced them, eg beckham ronaldo giggs has lost a bit of space and valencia just does what he has to do with as little fuse as possible, nani just seems like he wants to sulk his way into the team instead of working his way in, so sir alex has done the best with what he”s got (3 prems 1 CL 2 LC), we”re doing enough m8, you cant criticize a winning team, i admit chelsea are looking good but they never lost their best player in the summmer, and if they did they would not cope with it as well as we are. thats why i am not complaining to much m8
November 22nd, 2009 at 20:33
@CraigMc: You meant Owen playing well?
Or Obertan being the second coming of Ronaldo?
No, I thought Owen was very poor, and Obertan while bringing excitement to the crowd when he touches the ball, dis not do much against Everton. His first two touches he did not turn into something productive and then the other players decided to bypass him then.
But fear not, I’m an Obertan hopeful, and he showed against Moscow that he has IT in him, whatever It is. I just hope he was a bit more selfish and used his pace and talent to dribble past players and attack his flank.
November 22nd, 2009 at 20:39
THat’s it for Mickey Owen’s hope of South Africa then..
November 22nd, 2009 at 20:43
@NicoQB: When theres heskey in the squad, theres always a chance.
November 22nd, 2009 at 21:00
@NicoQB: I see you weren’t watching the same game as me. Owen was FAR FAR FAR better than Rooney, and would have scored at least a couple of goals IF any of our forwards could make that pass to him which actually doesn;t over run, or falls short. Please be honest Nico
.
November 22nd, 2009 at 21:04
@RicoTheRed: Rico mate – my point is we won those PL mainly because of Ronaldo, and even then our standard of performance had become mainly SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Pedestrian. You gotta admit that Rico. I don’t know how long you have been supporting Man United – no disrespect mate, but we are a shadow of the great cavaliar football Man United of the past.
November 22nd, 2009 at 21:09
@Dan: I sometimes think that Heskey’s role is that of a placebo.
By just being there, other players think they are by default better than him, and get a confidence boost that makes the perform well..
Mental theory I know..
November 22nd, 2009 at 21:12
@Grognard: Errrr there are no SIMPLETONS in the United crowd – most of them have been brought up on the very best football and thrilling stuff. WTF Grog calling the United faithful simpletons when you have NEVER stood on the terraces with them – United fans know what GREAT FOOTBALL is mate – not a simpleton amongst us – you Vancouver NO NOWT GROG
.
November 22nd, 2009 at 21:13
@CraigMc: I AM being honest, and I thought that Owen was really poor and Rooney while not as sharp as I would like him to be, was very involved in build up play and havng a few touches to get the game going.
My biggest gripe with Owen is that if he’s not given service, he can be virtually Invisible for a whole game. For 50 odd minutes against everton, you did not see Owen at all involved in the game, he had a decent 15minutes, but Rooney at least try to work himself or his partners to get opportunities.
November 22nd, 2009 at 21:14
@Redrich: You had it with Nani, but you moaned about it just like the other no nowt numptees
.
November 22nd, 2009 at 21:16
@Grognard: It hasn’t changed Grog, teams have always come to Old Trafford and parked the bus, same in all our away games for absolute years, BUT WE HAD STARS MATE, able to break them all down.
November 22nd, 2009 at 21:19
@CraigMc: And what’s more even Owen himself has conceded that more than any other striker, his game are going to be judged by the goals he scored, as he’s less likely to contribute in other aspects of the game.
I remember clearly quote:
I’m only as good as the service that I get.
(He was bemoaning his inefficiency for Newcastle)
I’m not one to bash him, I just thought he was poor against Everton, and Rooney huffed and puffed to his credit tried to make things happen.
November 22nd, 2009 at 21:20
@Grognard: Nani has proved with Portugal that he can do it Grog, and you know very well. He got them to the world cup in Ronnie’s absence with his good play. Obertan is only just starting out, but I see he has ability which I hope doesn’t regress under our coaches. It doesn’t matter what you say Grog, because Obertan ENLIVENED the OT crowd from the dead when he came on, and the other players around him, MORE THAN YOUR MATE ROONEY had managed to do in the rest of the game.
November 22nd, 2009 at 21:22
@Grognard: Oh Rooney gets the service mate, he just can’t control a feckin ball without letting it ROLL AWAY FROM HIM. But anyway each to his own.
November 22nd, 2009 at 21:34
@Grognard: What does it matter what I think mate – don’t take things so seriously. I am ok with you Dark Lord or Saint Grog, I don’t care. I was just having a laugh with Eddi mi man. I happen to think differently than you and a good few others about Rooney right now – so what???? What’s new eh? We are not all going to agree on the merits of players are we – but it is not personal mate!
November 22nd, 2009 at 21:50
haha… Craig mi man, always spoiling for a brawl, eh?
Now Nani isn’t playing, you have to find another contentious issue to debate about? Rooney had a bad game, big whoop!! Get over it!! 
Your assumption that Owen was even remotely better than Rooney yesterday just confirms to me your agenda. You excuse Owen on his lack of service, yet exclude Rooney from that criteria. It’s funny how your are one of the few, in the world, that seem to think Rooney is crap. He might not be world class at the moment, or playing anywhere near it but he is not as bad as you are making him out to be.
November 22nd, 2009 at 23:04
@Gabriel: ditto.
November 22nd, 2009 at 23:07
@CraigMc: I was born to moan!!
November 22nd, 2009 at 23:12
@CraigMc: Give him time, you know, like the 2 1/2 seasons you gave Nani.
Now if Rooney could just learn that backflip, I’m sure you’d be singing a different tune!!
November 22nd, 2009 at 23:30
@CraigMc: craig i a 32 years old m8 and have been supporting utd from i knew about football, i can accept we”re not playing the football of say 99, thats because we dont have that personnel anymore, more than anything we”re missing a roy keane, which means our attacking players have to help out more in other area”s, but this is the team now m8, if we tried to play the football we did, in say 99 we would get found out chum, the manager knows that, he”s getting the best out of what he”s got, and doing a good job in my opinion, what do you yhink it will be like when sir Alex goes m8. MUFC
November 23rd, 2009 at 0:08
@RicoTheRed: So Rico mate – SAF didn’t make the right replacements then since 99 did he? I am NOT impressed with some of his buys Rico – they have been far from United quality. Others buys though have been OK. I really believe though that SAF is NOT getting the best out of our present bunch of players. Some have regressed and that definately includes Rooney, who by the way thinks he is Gods gift to Man Utd. On what he has done for us since he came apart from his first few games after he signed for us – he is not anybody’s gift to Man Utd, tho I know many would disagree with me. That’s fandom mate
.
November 23rd, 2009 at 0:09
@Redrich: Never Rich mi man – NEVER
.
November 23rd, 2009 at 0:12
@Dan: @Grognard: Just in case anyone got me wrong, I did not say if Rooney was World class or not. I just pointed out that we should blinking look beyond that kind of misleading attribute and value the boy for what he is and what he does for us.
@CraigMc: Mate, you took on an undying love for Nani, and he went into Fergie’s doghouse forever. Take a different approach for Obertan mate, lest it jinx him.
(just kiddin).
November 23rd, 2009 at 0:12
@Redrich: You don’t moan all that much to be honest. You are one of the lesser moaners on the blog. However I think you have every right to moan when moaning is called for mate. I am not against moaning when needs must
. I think that too many just accept the status quo because we are expected to not rock the boat. God forbid that we should criticise where criticism is due 
November 23rd, 2009 at 0:14
@Rahul:
, I see your point mate. Nani will do ok though you can be sure of that. He just needs to move to a club who understand his game!
November 23rd, 2009 at 0:18
@Gabriel: Like I said Gabriel Bro it is all about opinion. I think Rooney has stank in many a game this and last season, but you being Rooney’s numero Uno fan, and a blind GIT where he is concerned, I accept you are going to continue to avidly love and support him. I am ok with that, as long as you are ok with me not being completely at one with you where the Roon is concerned!
November 23rd, 2009 at 0:21
@CraigMc: “He just needs to move to a club who understand his game!” Intriguing. Pray, Elucidate. Which club(s) do you think will understand his game? On his current season’s form, I shudder to think.
November 23rd, 2009 at 0:22
jonny evan interviews on bbc
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/8373458.stm
November 23rd, 2009 at 0:28
Just watched tottenhams’ annihilation of wigan and was it fun.
Great wing play, great striking, great midfield control, the stars really aligned for them today and it was great to watch. One thing that struck me though was, they were playing a 4-4-2 and it had pace and midfield solidarity. The complete antithesis of what we offer, despite playing a similar formation.
The difference I feel is in the midfield. They had two box-to-box midfielders who were full of running, tackling and shooting. This is where we differ. We only have two established box-to-box players; Fletcher and Anderson and Fergie refuses to play them together. Carrick and Scholes are way too slow and spend their time trotting around instead of hassling opposition and running towards them, hence freeing our forwards to operate in the box. Too many times those two just stroll with the ball and pass it instead of running at the opposition; this always makes the forward run out of the box to receive the ball and is why they are never in there when the wingers finally get it, ready to cross. Even Owen has begun to catch that bug.
This is why the combination of Hargreaves and Ando was so explosive when they played; both were explosive box-to boxers who were always on the move, pushing back the opposition. As carrick can’t change his spots, I reckon we try a pairing of Ando and Fletch or even Gibson more often to see what gives. Our upcoming match against Besiktas should be a good time to try; maybe Ando and Gibson(no scholes please!!! the guy is retiring!!). The likes of Carrick and Scholes (of today) are suited to a three man mdifield and can be utilised when we adopt said formation.
November 23rd, 2009 at 0:39
@Footy4Eddy: What does that make United who lost to Chelsea twice already?
November 23rd, 2009 at 0:47
@CraigMc: Spare me please. Standing up for them is fine even though most of them are too drunk during the game to really know jack shit. I have nothing against them but they are such a fickle bunch that they are as unpredictable as the weather. One day Rooney is a god, the next day he sucks. Fickle to the maximum degree. Sorry mate but you can stand up for them all you want because you often sit with them. For me they are Man Utd fans but complete strangers and I have no loyalty to them whatsoever, other than we share a common purpose. People on this blog are different because over time we get to actually know each other and so I have more regard for them than half a dozen firms in the stands who are mostly knobheads. Sure pick on the fact that I live farther away. That doesn’t make me less of a fan. The fact that I am not part of the drunken bastards club in the stands is not a problem with me. I still love and enjoy following my team and i will put my knowledge of the team up against anyone.
November 23rd, 2009 at 0:51
@CraigMc: I remember plenty of teams who came into OT in the 90’s and early in this decade and decided to play football. Plenty. So forgive me for disagreeing but nowadays 8/10 minnows or mid division teams come and park the bus. Back then it was more like 4/10.
November 23rd, 2009 at 0:58
@CraigMc: Drunken bastards get lively when you show a shiny keychain at them. He did nothing worth talking about. If you cannot see that, then you have gone from being an intelligent fan to a blindly biased fan who picks his favorites and will support them no matter what. Reminds me of some Foster fans. You can dump on poor Rooney all game and call his performance shite but build up a useless Obertan who did nothing but show a few static step overs. Big frakken deal. Rooney on his worst day offers ten times that.
As for Nani, he has been better for Portugal that is true, but then again, he hasn’t been a God with them. He needs to play in that kind of system and in the kind of continental football or he just loses it. England is not the place for him. I am convinced he could be a star in Italy or Spain but he will never amount to shit in England. The game is to fast and physical for him and he just doesn’t handle it as well as the pressure Fergie puts on him. I want the best for the lad, honest I do, but I also am tired of his lethargic and uninspiring displays for us. Like I said, it’s not all his fault. In fact most of it is not his fault, but the fact remains that this team and this league will be the end of the Lil Man unless he leaves. Let him go elsewhere where doing a Ronaldo imitation at 50% speed actually works.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:01
@CraigMc: ‘GIT’?? really Craig? I’m sure its fandom that made you type that, right?
Don’t try and make it so polarised too mate; I actually agree Rooney has regressed and is not playing as well as he should be, that is evidently clear in my posts. What I don’t agree with is your exaggerated statements about his game and ability. No one is claiming he is the second coming of Jesus, but he certainly is the dogs bollox, mate.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:01
@CraigMc: You misunderstand bro. I am not taking things seriously at all. It’s you and I discussing things and I always consider you a friend. But I will be honest with you and I will defend a point to the extent where it comes across as serious. But you know I love ya bro and that any teasing or abuse we throw at each other when we disagree is nothing to take seriously. We have our periods where we agree often and times when we disagree. No biggy.
November 23rd, 2009 at 1:09
@Rahul: OK, this is where I step in and support my buddy Craig and Nani. Nani would to very well playing for a mid table team in Italy or Spain. The slower more central continental game is suited to him which allows him to freelance more and cut inside. Also the pace isn’t as high and the game is not as physical. Nani handles pressure and managerial restrictions badly. He needs to go to a team that is ambitious but not glory hounds. He needs a manager who will treat him like Fergie treated Ronaldo. Just do your thing and don’t worry about anything. No he is not Ronaldo but he can be one of the top 6 or 7 wingers in the game if given the proper chance in the proper environment. Of this I am convinced.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:12
@Grognard: Well the thing with Nani is, and no matter what league he’s in, is playing time. He needs to be with a team that offers him 30-40 starts a season.
It’ll never happen at United because the pressure to contribute and the competition for other players will prevent that kind of opportunity.
He’s had his chances and fluffed them mostly, what he needs now is playing time to boost his confidence and develop a lasting rhythm that will define his style.
Not at this club though, and so the idea of a loan deal for a season and a half would be great for player and club. If in the meantime he finds a good situation for him and we find someone that take the left wing as his own, it could end up as a permanent deal!!
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:18
@CraigMc: Wow, that comment is just Hilarious!! I agree with Grognard that Obertan hardly did anything this time when he came on this game, let alone showed some magic. That has happened a few times this season though – and THAT is why the crowd grew excited cos they expected him to do it again – Cos he’s replaced Nani a few times this season and done wonderfully when compared to him!!!
Your anti-Rooney and pro-Nani bias is so blind that sometimes I wonder if you’re just having a laugh mate, or if you really mean what you say
Oh, and did you hear the crowd chanting Rooney’s name when he was subbed? What do you think of that? Just a couple of thousands of fickle fans too?
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:36
OK, getting ready to watch The MLS Cup. Beckham looks like he’s gonna start and much hype about that.
Lets see if he can redeem his US image!!
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:42
@Redrich: Beckham, Donovan combined pretty well for LA’s goal. Also, Becks is playing with a sore ankle.
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:01
@Red Ranter: He also looks like something out of a Dr. Seuss Movie.
Beckham Who???
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:04
@Red Ranter: Winner here could possibly take on Leyton Orient for the Transatlantic Cup.
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:22
@Redrich: He looks like he’s got a skunk on his head.
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:35
@Redrich: It can’t be a skunk, it couldn’t afford the rent.
Wait, didn’t we do this before?
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:37
OK, Heathens 1-1 Mormons.
Nail biting stuff!!
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:16
Final score; Salt Lake win on penalty’s.
For those who couldn’t watch this, it was really bush league stuff.
This game was a damning example of how far things have not progressed here.
I would wonder whether either or the teams playing for the Cup tonight, would ever make a dent in any European League.
If it was a spectacle, it was one that showed how very far this game has to go on this continent!!
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:43
@Redrich: That’s why I said he has to go to a mid table club. They are going to be much more willing to give him the playing time he needs.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:47
@Redrich: Sodom and Gomorra 4 vs Mormons 5 on penalty kicks. LA couldn’t even beat a team with a sub 500 record. What a joke. Boring game too. Not a good advertisement for soccer in North America.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:48
@Redrich: I agree. Utter crapola.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:00
Well I have to say that my new age revolution for Manchester United is off to a flying start in Football Manager 10. I scrapped my original season as I got this inspiration from talking with Redrich a few days ago. What I did was a little bit in reverse though. Instead of appointing Laurent Blanc manager, I appointed him assistant manager and then instead of making myself the manager, I created my Eric Cantona persona. The Cantona/Blanc French revolution has begun.
What changes did I make with the editor tool? Only four. I retired EVDS, Scholes and Neville and I gave the team the Ronaldo money of 80 Million to work with. My signings were Rene Adler in goal, Philip Lahm at RB,
Yoann Gourcuff in midfield, Brian Jensen as backup GK, Milos Krasic at RW and Angel Di Maria at RM. And I’m still left with 15 million.
I’m still interested in either Kjaer or Rodwell but they are asking too much. My next business is to sell Park, Nani and Foster.
I played my first two exhibition games using my new King Cantona Diamond attack and beat Dunfermline 6-0 and then beat Altrincham 10-0. Five goals for Rooney in two games, two for Owen and one for Berba. Carrick, Fletcher have both scored blinders and Krasic and Di Maria have scored as has Valencia and Giggs not to mention Vidic and Rio.
Sure it’s a game but man is it fun watching them play lights out stuff and what a difference the new wingers and Gourcuff are making in the attack. Rooney has never had it so good and I am still playing him as a defensive forward. Although a game it clearly shows the difference in a team by just changing the style of play. Get an early lead by pressing the attack and then play counter attack afterwards. Sure the competition was garbage but King Cantona has clearly got the lads pumped up.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:38
Great team play especially in the second half,best performers were Fletch , back four especially the full backs in attack.For the first time i have seen us play without our defenders kicking the ball upfield and praying for a miracle.I get disappointed with managers like moyes who leave the likes of Jo and yakubu on the bench and expect a surprise.He should learn from steve bruce because all his teams are always attack minded thats why they cause upsets.
I will not tackle the Rooney topic as i have seen it discussed but i remain where i stood prior to this non performance
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:46
@antsBoy: I think the crowd like you are all Rooney sheep, and blind ones at that! By the way I have NEVER compared Roon the loon with Nani – that would be a bloody ludicrous comparison. However I stand by what I said about Nani, he played well for Portugal, and made the goal that won the final game that got them to the world cup. He was quoted 9/10 the Star man for that performance. We will see when Nani moves on whether he progresses in the team he goes too – won’t we. Obertan DID do something mate in the Everton game too. For a START HE WOKE UP the comatosed terraces, and anybody with UNBIASED EARS watching the game through again after he came on will see that. He may not have done anything as you say, but he was on 20 minutes plus, where Rooney was on for an hour and DID FUCK ALL. Course the fans chanted his name when he went off, because they know HE IS A FUCKING CRY BABY, and gets into a hissy fit every time he is taken off. If you really want me to share with you my ROONEY hate I will mate. I am sick of him pontificating that He is the United Saviour, and then he comes on overweight, unfit, sluggish, farting around with little outcome, cannot control a ball if his life depended on it, and is back to his BLAZING over the bar potshots at goal. But by all means stay with the rest of the Rooney following sheep mate, but I will only give him accolade when he deserves it, and he doesn’t at the moment – so put that in your pipe and smoke it all you who hate me touching your precious strop boy Rooney!
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:55
@Gabriel: Depends what your ‘dogs bollox’ look like Gabriel – I might agree with you mate! The trouble with ‘dogs bollox’ is that they are covered in shit mate that their owners have to keep cleaning up, so yes I could agree with you Gabriel! DOGS BOLLOX = SHITE!
. I call all my mates GITS Gabriel so slip of the tongue from my habitual use of the word with the rugby lads 
.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:06
@CraigMc: Where is this anger coming from mate. The last time you were like this was months ago when you were defending Nani with such venom you got a warning from Red Ranter. I just do not think it’s worth all this venom and hatred Craig. I fully believe Rooney will return to form and make you eat your words. Then you will have to show yourself on this board and get a pile of abuse because you have stuck your neck out far this time and I feel this time you will pay the penalty from all of us. You are wrong about Rooney and deep down you know it too. You just seem hell bent on making some kind of a point and I don’t know what it is exactly. With all due respect mate, you are one of the more popular and intelligent ranters on this blog yet the last few days you are coming across like nut job from the terraces.
Rooney is easily in the top ten players in the world whether you want to agree with that or not. If you polled FIFA or every journalist and player, I guarantee you they would all have him in the top ten. He is highly respected and most revered, yet you talk about him the way we all talk about Nani. Something is wrong with this picture. With you white is black and black is white.
This Rooney hatred is losing you a lot of respect which you worked hard to gain. What really gets me is that I really believe in your heart and gut, you don’t believe a word of what you are saying. You are just upset and frustrated with Rooney and so you are lashing out like a petulant child does when mommy doesn’t buy him a toy. I respect and like you mate but you accuse me of going soft of late. I would worry more of everyone starting to say you have gone stupid.
Have you not been around the last six years to watch the marvelous moments and skills Wayne Rooney has contributed to this team? You yourself have said Fergie is the cause for a lot of his problems of late yet you still bash Wayne. Man you have me and everyone confused, including yourself. 
Fess up and tell us all you have just been playing with us because I honestly cannot believe you mean all that crap.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:10
@Grognard: ‘Drunken Bastard’ – no idea WTF you are on about Bro? I have a BABY DAUGHTER now Grog, and I quit my boozing on football/rugby days with the lads, and at other times also! I respect my family duties mate! I have ears and eyes, I watched the game through again, and I never said Obertan did anything spectacular, but what I did say he did, he actually did – that is HE REVVED UP THE CROWD NOISE TO A CRESCENDO when he came on, and affected the other players TEMPO around him. Those UNBIASED who watched the game, will have seen and HEARD what I am talking about. Anyway Mr Rooney lover convert – I will let you be.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:26
@Grognard: The United terrace fans are fickle and unpredictable? Remind you of anyone then Grog – yourself perhaps??? I have been consistent where Rooney is concerned, and you all know that on this blog. Thing is, I am enjoying taking on all the vitriol from the Rooney sheep on this blog. I love a good war, and I don’t mind if I take a few HITS myself. You can all do your WORST in the Rooney debate, bring it on, I don’t give a toss. Rooney may be untouchable to you all, but he aint to me. He has been ALL MOUTH, but so far NO TROUSERS! If he does what he is always BIGHEADLY BOASTING to the whole fucking world he will do – SINGLEHANDEDLY save United, then I’ll be the first to acknowledge his efforts and contribution. Until then though Rooney – Put Up or SHUT UP!
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:49
@Grognard: Whether you like it or not Grog, it is NOT anger mate – I am just forceably giving my viewpoint on Rooney. I have broken no rules on this blog, that RedRanter needs to worry about, and incidentally I don’t know why RR has to be cried to everytime somebody has a POTENT opinion to air! I don’t go crying to RR to give someone a bolloxing every time they have a very strong viewpoint, and yes I feel very strongly about the Rooney debate. Nothing to do with your perceived but incorrect assumption of anger Grog. RR on that ONE occasion was right to intervene, and I apologised to the people concerned. He has nothing to intervene on so far in this debate. Did Gabriel cry to RR when he thought I was calling him a GIT? No because he can hold his corner in a heavy debate, and he does it very well. Does Antsboy need RR to fight his corner with the blind sheep comment – NO because he knows its not personal to him alone, I am talking about ALL ROONEY followers, who won’t here anything negative about him. I have noticed though how sanitized this blog has become, so a few fireworks chucked in the mix will bring about all kinds of different reactions, but I am sure everyone will survive without RR’s intervention.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:52
@CraigMc: Hey bro nice to see you back after long time. Such a venomous come back WOW.
I have been following this all ROONEY issue since yesterday but your last comment just compelled me to get into this. You quate and I repaste
“Until then though Rooney – Put Up or SHUT UP!”,
I think the issue here is not whether ROONEY is capable of doing XYZ thing or not the ISSUE I feel you have is there is no co relation in what ROONEY feels about himself and what ROONEY is. I mean I agree that after all the boasting he did that I will do this, I will do that he is still hasn’t quite done what he was saying. I mean the problem you might be having is ROONEY is not good enough to put his work to the level where his mouth was with all those Man UTD massieh and all. And if this is the cause of all frustration then I am with you mate. He needs to get his head sorted and needs to put his FOOTBALL where his mouth is.
Having said that I have say that he is definitely not as bad as you are making out he is (and you know it bro deep down isn’t it???) but, the problem is he is definitely not as good as he himself thinks (i.e. replacing RONALDO) and thats the area of conflinct I feel.
But, I think for me this whole WORLDCLASS PLAYER debate just doesn’t hold sustance at all. I mean at the end of the day we want somebody who will fit the bill with the team. I mean Berba looked awesome whereever he played before us but at the same time pedestrian. Does it mean that he is just another ordinary player???? NO. It means that he just doesn’t fit the bill with this team.
I think this all WORLD CLASS PLAYER and all debate is just useless in the first place because we should think whether that player fit the scheme or not. If he doesn’t then no matter he is world clas or not he will fail miserably???
So the question that you, me and all boarders should ask here is not that if ROONEY is WORLDCLASS or not, but do we need him and does he make MAN UTD better??
Be honest and answer this, I am sure you know the CORRECT answer…
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:57
*I mean Berba looked awesome whereever he played before us but at the same time pedestrian for us….
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:25
@Onkar:
– yeah mate the VENOMOUS SERPENT is visiting the blog – watch you don’t get snake bitten Onkar Bro 
. You have been the only one SO FAR who has got to the very heart of my arguement mate! What Rooney boasts, and boasts, and boasts with all too familiar press regularity, and his actual contribution where the fulfillment of his boasts are concerned. I think he has failed to make his fairytale United Messiah boasts REALITY, and has turned on other players and blamed them for his failures on the field of play. You want me to be honest Onkar, about your question of does Rooney make United better, and do we need him. On most of his play this season and in a lot of the BIG games in other seasons I would have to say NO. He does have SPELLS where he makes a big contribution to the United cause, but that is just it – SPELLS! He is in and out of games for numbers of games at a time during a season. So he is not a consistent contributor all season long, that is all I am saying. I get very tired of his being on the field, running around like a frenzied duracell bunny, all action man, but so much so, that when it comes to him contolling a ball without it running away from him, or making a telling pass which matters, he is too tired to do either. The play breaks down with Rooney because of the aforementioned two things – so often. Also he is not the fittest player to start with it seems, and so tiredness affects his shooting too, and he is a striker that is not in the area enough. Capello INSISTS he employs himself in the final quarter of the pitch when he plays for England, and Rooney knows there are no self imposed Messiahs in Capello’s team. He doesn’t do what he is told, he will be out. This is why he said recently that he is scared stiff of Capello. Did you ever here him say that about Sir Alex? Has SAF not got the same respect and fear factor as Capello? Seemingly not where Rooney is concerned! Hope that answers your question Onkar and is honest enough for you! Thank you for seeing it is a serious debate mate!
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:50
Wow, the Rooney thing is still going on!!
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:53
@CraigMc: Any time mate… I am ready for the serious debate anytime. And as you know that I can certainly see whats the point if it…
But, I think the ROONEY for england and ROONEY for Man UTD are two totally twio different entity are down to two reason mate. One is like you have mentioned managers. Its like comparing Berba for Bulgaria and Berba for Man UTD. Those national coaches have certainly got there tactics right to bring the best out of ROONEY. And as much as we all blame him for his all around approach we should agree that most of the blame should be shouldered by us fans as well. I mean we always wanted our striker to all the sorts of things like chasing back, cotributing to defense and all. That made the pedestrian TEVEZ more of a crowd favorite than the CLASS BERBA (who was may be is still a useless Vilain for many). So, all action ROONEY is all what we loved over the years so can’t just put the blame on the lad for that.
Second reason as I see ROONEY will always need right foil to flurish. There are no doubts about it. So when he plays for England he always seem to have striking parter who has last man out and out srtiker where ROONEY will play in and around him. He is missing that in Man UTD. I am syre if he partners some one like Torress, VILLA or for matter DZECKO than he will look 10 times better, but alas… We don’t have one in there mould….
As far as ROONEY in team is concerned I will still maintain bro that (Man UTD + ROONEY)>>>> (Man UTD – ROONEY)…..
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:53
Wow, never thought I’d see the day when United fans turned on Wayne (once a Blue always a Red) Rooney. We really are a spoiled bunch. A man that has said countless times that he will end his career with us, that brings us countless millions in advertising and promotional spend as well as being the best player in our team…I’m just baffled.
He’s not the best player in the world, but I would argue strongly that he’s in the top 10 attacking players in the world. Hate to use it as an example, but how many other players have scored the sheer variety of goals over the past 5 years? And maintained decent form over that time? He’s not a poacher, he’s not a playmaker he’s just a forward, and a very, very good one at that.
People talk of his earlier days as him being some kind of all conquering superstar – he really wasn’t consistently. His appearance in the Euros was awesome, but resulted as much out of defenders having no idea who he was and how defend to him as it did with his amazing abilities. Then when he joined us every defender that played us knew that Ruud was the one to watch out for, so Roon had more space. The two of them were astoundingly dangerous together, but injuries and in the end stubbornness broke that pair apart.
Then with Ronaldo he was asked to be a completely different player, basically an outlet to release Ronaldo and draw away defences. And he did it with aplomb. It changed the way he sees the game. Before it was always, where is the goal, it became where are my teammates.
And so this season he is caught in this weird in-between stage. And for England, he still is the playmaker, despite his position. And he’s always the most dangerous player in an England shirt. For United Fergie just has to get the balance right.
It doesn’t help that he never plays with the same partner this year. I think Fergie is stuck in a hard place. He knows that we had to change without Ronaldo, but he didn’t have time to try everything he wanted to try. So he still is, basically. Some days we look like an old fashioned 442, with wide wingers, other days we play Giggs as kind of a slightly left of center barely running attacking midfielder. Some days Rooney is leading the line, others he is the support striker. I’m hoping it’ll calm down soon, sometime just after Xmas, and Fergie will understand what shaped pegs he has and put them in the right holes.
From what I’ve seen this season, we’re slightly stuck. Nani has again underwhelmed, meaning there’s no great left attacking option. Giggs doesn’t have the legs to stretch defences that way, and tends to just be a pivot for Evra to run past. The right is definitely Valencias. Up front we have Berbatov who looks ok but doesn’t force defences to be honest, and Owen who looks rubbish at sticking the ball in the net but does. We have Macheda and Welbeck not playing, and Rooney overplaying.
It was good to see Scholes used as a 25 minute sub, that strikes me as the best thing to do with such talent.
Apologies for the length, but have some optimism. Give it 3 or 4 non disjointed games, and see if Fergie has settled. When he doest we’ll be in good shape.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:55
@CraigMc: BTW bro.. Long time since you were not around…. Were busy in something or what??? Hows everything??? How are both the girls in your life doing????
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:56
@CraigMc: Finally you approach it in a direct way.I remember Ronaldo doing everything and Fans here saying its Ronaldo who takes the spotlight from Rooney and that when he is sold,Rooney would come out.
It is not that he has only played awful this season.Rather,the other seasons there was Ronaldo to blame.At the time when he should stand out on his own,i dont think he has managed.
I have earlier said that when Rooney came here,he was way ahead of Ronaldo in maturity,he had pace power,and a venomous shot on him that scared the hell out of defenders.Now what can you say is his asset?
Please bloggers, when someone notes a continuing concern about a player,it is not all hate.No one lambasts Grognard for his anti Anderson and Foster sentiments and so it is only fair that no one should be if it is Rooney.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:04
@ Craig Mc, what? more anti Rooney bollox! seems like you always have time to slag off Rooney & many of us dont watch the same game as you. I suggest you check out SPECSAVERS! I suppose you think Nani>Rooney!!!! get a grip mate, really! you’re so quick to jump on Rooneys’ back sometimes i think you’re donibrasco in disguise!!??
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:19
@Beachryan: Errrr Beachy, you make some good points mate! Yet your comment about ‘UNITED fans’ turning on Rooney misses the mark by a great width mate. Read the comments back on this thread, and you will see that I am the only fan who is criticising Rooney! Some can see some of my points on the flaws in his game, and his failure to live up to his boasts, but I don’t see any of them TURNING ON HIM, as you sate Bro!
Incidentally, I don’t apologise for having my thoughts on Rooney, and his I will get the Ronaldo goals, and be THE MAN, the Messiah after Ronaldo for United from henceforth. Yeah RIGHT, we can all see that Wayne – NOT!
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:24
@phoenix red:
, Phoenix mi man, so you got snake bitten too! It’s just my opinion Phoenix Bro, but I see what I see. You don’t have to agree with me, which you obviously don’t 
. How are you anyway Phoenix and your young Son – long time no speak mate?
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:28
@donibrasco: You know I AGREE with you mate, but Rooney is so greatly loved, a lot of people get the hump when he is touched, and well if I couldn’t take the heat off them, I wouldn’t light the touchpaper
. I see and agree with some of your points on Rooney’s failures mate!
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:28
@Grog there’s some unbelievable nonsense floating around, anyone who cant see that the main problem for Uniteds strikers is the supply from midfield needs to reappraise their understanding of football, and this has been a problem for quite awhile!!!! Totally Agree Bro!
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:31
@Onkar: I have and am still well into a very big work project with monthly deadlines mate. The GF and wee mini me (my little girl) are both fine – thanks for asking Bro!
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:36
@phoenix red: The midfield are TOO BUSY SUPPLYING the goals for us though Bro, because of our striker ineptitude. I think you are wrong though about the MF not providing, they get the ball to the strikers outside the box, but the strikers can’t dribble or get past defenders, or LIKE ROONEY they can’t control incoming balls, but let the ball run away from them. Sad but true fact Phoenix.
November 23rd, 2009 at 14:18
@ Gabriel – You know sometimes you believe you’re saying the right thing and you shout about in solitude. After some time of making a racket about it you begin to wonder why you’re the only one with such a belief. Thanks for confirming my sanity. Lol. I’ve always shouted about the need for energy in our midfield. And I’ve been making noise about Fletcher and Anderson being given a good run together. Since 2007, in my opinion at least, our best midfield combo was the pair of Hargreaves and Andy. Nothing went past them and with the tireless Hargo there was a wide, one man screen in front of the defence. With Andy’s energy and runs forward the forwards had the liberty to make offensive runs off the ball. Remember our match against Liverpool that season and against Arsenal. Last season our best came from the combination of Fletcher, Anderson and Carrick towards the end of the season. Against Roma, and in both semi finals. I especially remember the 1st leg semi against Arsenal. We bombarded Arsenal like we were playing an exhibition match against Coventry. This season the same midfield combination produced our best performance at the Bridge. I follow Spurs from time to time because they’ve ALWAYS tried to play the right way. Some of the best they’ve played has been with the pair of Zokora and Modric. Energy, drive and moving forward. That’s what we need. And it’s certainly not going to be found in the centre circle enthusiasts, Carrick and Scholes.
November 23rd, 2009 at 15:03
Messi : ” If there is one player with whom i want to play ,it is ROONEY”
Lampard : ” Rooney is the best player with whom i have played”
Terry : ” Rooney is awesome and can lead England for long”
Berbatov : ” Rooney is the best player in the world”
Media : ” Fate of Man utd and England are similar.If Rooney performs ,they both will serious contenders for EPL and World Cup”
November 23rd, 2009 at 15:11
All top clubs in Europe :
1 > Real Madrid : Ronaldo,Kaka,Casillas,Alonso,Ramos ,Benzema wanted by all clubs..
2 > Barcelona : Almost everyone excluding 2-3
3> Chelsea : Lampard ,Essien,Terry,Cech,Cole,drogba
4 > Liverpool : Gerrard,Torres,and may be Reina
but for us:
Rooney and vidic( due to his previous year form )
So there is complete defficiency here and Only Rooney provides place among the major clubs…
so instead of blaming him,we should support him as he is the symbol of us..
I bet you.You ask anyone a player of Man Utd ,The first name will be Rooney in 99% cases.
November 23rd, 2009 at 16:17
@owen: you forgot ronaldo who wants rooney to play along side him in madrid…
November 23rd, 2009 at 16:44
@bildani: yes of course…It is correct that Ronaldo is better than Rooney but when you will watch the opinions of other good players,then Rooney gets better regards than Ronaldo…
November 23rd, 2009 at 16:47
@owen: Tevez is the one of the most luckiest player in the world ( i think single one ) who has played with both Messi and Ronaldo…But he also told that he enjoyed most while playing with Rooney
November 23rd, 2009 at 17:22
@owen: You forgot Fletcher in your world-class list for us.
I truly believe that he has been world class for us. Compared to an Essien – who like Vidic, is deemed world class because of his previous reputation rather than actual form, Fletcher has been as good a Defensive Midfielder as you’ll see in any team in the world.
November 23rd, 2009 at 17:24
I was always of the impression that rooney would end up replacing scholes in his attacking midfield role.
Scholesy also began his utd career as a forward but gradually cemented his place in midfield as the guv’nor etc left the squad for pastures new.
I believe that rooney has the makings of an immense central midfielder – great vision and range of passing, not afraid of a bit of work or sticking the boot in and can move box to box linking play with ease helping the team move from defence to offence in seconds.
I thought a few seasons ago that anderson was going to become this rooney/scholes hybrid but sadly this has failed to pass.
I believe that a central midfield of fletch-rooney-hargo would be unbreakable.
With the ever impressive obertan looking good for the left wing and valencia becoming more comfortable in the red shirt on the right all we really need is a world-class striker – someone who has pace and power and can hold the ball up, i.e. someone like drogba would be perfect in this role – not berba/owen.
Maybe kiko macheda is heading in this direction but he needs more big games under his belt.
Anyway forget ando/scholes/carrick Rooney for midfield general – captain fantastic rides again.
November 23rd, 2009 at 17:33
@NicoQB: This is true but Chelsea will not exchange Essien with him,Barca will not exchange Keita/Toure with him,Madrid will not Diarra …But this is bcoz Fletcher is under rated not bcoz bcoz he lacks something…
And more so i dont think there had been a single rumour anytime for Fletcher bid
November 23rd, 2009 at 17:40
I don’t know how many of you follow the NBA, but Rooney reminds me a lot of Scottie Pippen. Great player, voted on of the 50 greatest players of all time. Regarded as the best small forward of all time. But most importantly he is often thought of as the best role player of all time.
His greatest years were when he was playing alongside Michael Jordan. Even raved about how good he was, and how he was arguably better than Jordan. Hell even Jordan himself said Pippen was the better player. But when Jordan retired the first time, he left the team to Pippen. They were still a good team, but they were missing Jordan. Pippen would carry the team at times, but he was obviously no Jordan.
I see a similar happening with Rooney. He is a great player, and now that I think about it he prolly is one of the top 10 players in the world. But I will put a small asterik next to that. Because I think when it comes to putting a team on it’s back, Rooney isn’t there. He is still behind players like Ronaldo, gerrard, messi, lampard, kaka, torres…
November 23rd, 2009 at 19:14
@owen: That’s just because Fletcher doesn’t “look” the part. Maybe somewhere along the line nowadays the stereotype that football fans have of the defensive midfield enforcer is that of a foreign (usually African) tough tackling lean, mean machine.
He looks rather some boring office clerk, but in truth he’s a beast of a player.
In any case we’re lucky to have him as he’s the kind of player that’s not going to show interest in moving abroad.
November 23rd, 2009 at 19:25
@Johnsom33:
Jordan – Ronaldo
Pippen – Rooney
Shaq O’neal (or maybe Tim Duncan from 5 years ago)- Batistuta
Steve Nash (vintage) – Messi?
Jason Kidd – Xavi
Kobe Bryant – Ronaldo (fat one, before he was fat)
Dwayne Wade – Samuel Eto’o
Bit random, this …
Any more?
November 23rd, 2009 at 19:54
@CraigMc: Read it again bro. I wasn’t calling you a drunken bastard. Just the multitudes in the terraces who truly are drunken bastards.
November 23rd, 2009 at 20:04
@CraigMc: Out up what you silly pratt? Put up the six years of thrills Rooney has delivered to us as well as his 100+ goals for United. Never ever ever have you come across so frakken idiotic than you have been the last few days about Rooney. Obviously the lad really rubbed you wrong of late and now you are acting worse than scorned woman in heat. Get over the hate because nobody is buying it nor does anyone want to hear such rubbish about a great player. Yes he is in poor form but it amazes me, Hell it pisses me off that you put him down like he has always been a piece of crap while building up mediocrity like Nani into the something like the second coming of Pele. Call me fickle all you want, we all are fickle when it serves us. But seriously mate, this story is getting really old and tiresome because you are insulting and putting down a player 99% of Mancunia revere and love. This isn’t Ben Foster, Nani, Anderson or JS Park. This frakken Wayne Rooney and you are way out of line with this barrage of bad blood and bad taste that you are throwing in his direction. He doesn’t deserve it and really, after what he has done for this team, you should be ashamed mate. He’s a football god and you make him out to be a peon.
And stop calling the legions of his fans and supporters sheep unless it turns you on to know that amongst that entire flock there roams one black sheep who just doesn’t like being part of the group. Go ahead, knock yourself out but do not bitch and moan and call us names when we let you have it for your blind anger towards a beloved player. WTF????
Seriously bro, loosen up a bit. You’ve told me to do this often in the past. Now it’s time to take your own advice. 
November 23rd, 2009 at 20:10
@CraigMc: It’s not about anyone crying to RR. It’s that RR reads this stuff and he may not particularly like you calling someone a git. I know if somebody called me a git I’d be pissed off. You are throwing insults around and telling people off because they disagree with you. So what if they disagree, does that mean they are sheep or gits or idiots? Honestly mate, it sounds angry and a little hostile and i know you better than to think you are being malicious. But you are being insensitive. Somebody calls me a git to my face the next time he does it with a few teeth missing.
Bottom line mate, you are wrong about Rooney. Dead wrong. I have never ever disagreed with you about something as badly as i am now. Your insinuations and accusations towards this great player are so ludicrous, they come across like comedy. It’s hard for people to take what you are saying as serious because it’s so absurd. Have you not been watching the past six years? And why are you magnifying a few bad performances this season and making sound like he has always played like this? It’s madness bro, sheer madness.
November 23rd, 2009 at 20:18
@donibrasco: Anderson and Foster are not in the same universe or class as Rooney. Rooney is far from perfect but he truly is a giant amongst footballers and for people to slag him like he is some useless muppet like Anderson or Foster, well that’s just going to far. Criticize his recent form, that’s fair, question why he is playing poorly of late and what can be done to get him to return to his proper self, but to slag him like he never was a good player has been just more than i can stomach. It’s short minded and short tempered as well as highly illogical because it is not consistent with the facts or the stats of the player. Putting down Rooney’s recent form is fair, putting down his career is complete bullshit and rubbish.
November 23rd, 2009 at 20:21
@CraigMc: Ask yourself one question Craig? WHY IS HE LOVED? He must have done something to earn it because looking like Shrek isn’t going to get him much love.
November 23rd, 2009 at 20:26
@phoenix red: I know mate. It amazes me as to how many people just don’t get it or they see the game in such a different way that it boggles my mind. Our midfield has improved in scoring goals this season as they need to take more attempts to make up for the loss of Ronaldo but they still lack that bite and finesse in making the killer pass. It is especially noticeable when they are on the counter. So often they make a poor pass or look so indecisive that it is embarrassing. Our wingers are supposed to have pace yet I see very little of it as most of the time they look like they are just standing around and their supply or initial move or cross is transparent. This is what some should be bitching about, not Rooney. Even when Rooney is playing poorly he does so much out there to help his teammates that he creates opportunities simply by the respect he gets from the opposition. That is a world class trait that few have.
November 23rd, 2009 at 20:29
@CraigMc: Anybody can get the ball to a striker outside the box. And very few strikers can do any good out there. Like it’s easy to dribble through a wall of five EPL defenders? Get serious. Passes have to breech the wall. Finesse passes, lobs, chips, 1,2’s are the way to get your strikers opportunities. Our midfielders are too defensive minded and are not visionary enough to do this. Our wingers are a joke. Do the math
You go on and on about the god Nani and how well he plays for Portugal. It’s true, he plays better but how about Berbatov and the goal scoring he does for Bulgaria. How come he scores for them but not for us? It’s called service or supply mate. And we are not good at it.
November 23rd, 2009 at 20:34
@owen: Yes but they are just players and peers. What do they know? They aren’t as wise as Craig is about Rooney.
Don’t forget that Ronaldo has also said the same thing about Rooney and has gone as far as to say he dreams of him coming to Real Madrid one day as he thinks Madrid really need him. But why, he’s rubbish.
November 23rd, 2009 at 20:39
@Johnsom33: Good point mate. Yes he is in the top ten in the world but say for argument he is #9 in the world. There is a big difference in my mind between #9 and #1 and #2. Ronaldo and Messi for me are light years ahead of the rest.
November 23rd, 2009 at 20:43
You’re on a roll Grog!!
November 23rd, 2009 at 20:46
@Grognard: Ronaldo and Messi are not light years away of Xavi,Iniesta and Torres,that is sure…
The problem with Torres is that bcoz of the club he has not won anything but is the best striker in world right now,no doubt…
And Iniesta is brilliant and is in same leagueof the two…
The main positive of Xavi is that he maintains his standard everywhere he plays…He is the main force for Spain but Messi and Ronaldo are not exactly the same for their Countries and Messi is also criticized for this a lot
November 23rd, 2009 at 20:50
Ok. I had a read of the whole debate on Rooney. Quite interesting I must say, especially the timing — coming as it did on the back of a pretty solid win. Anyhow, nice debate; I still like Rooney, and think he is among our best players. But you are free to criticise him as much as you can criticise any other player. No player criticism is out of line on this site as I’ve seen worse things being said to Ferguson. Which of course doesn’t mean you have to indulge in criticism for the heck of it.
As long as you don’t get personal.
November 23rd, 2009 at 20:51
@Grognard: All your points about Rooney, Anderson and Foster are spot on, Foster I like the lad but the club is too big for him, Anderson has been poor for far too long and Rooney a superb player, the clubs talisman and a soon to be legend.
November 23rd, 2009 at 20:54
@owen: A winger that scores 90 odd goals in 3 seasons is not light years ahead of a midfielder who maintains his standard for club n country?? I’d rather have the one who bangs em in for the club year in n year out.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:01
@Rahul: If only scoring counts in a game of football,then what is the need of other players???Acc to you ,then Essien,Fletcher,Iniesta,Xavi counts no where…
Go and ask Gerrard what it means to a team players like Alonso…Then comment…RVN also scored same amount of goals but was he light years ahead of Zidane,Figo,Ronaldinho???
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:05
@Grognard: Rooney’s form remind me sooo much of that of Ryan Giggs’ when he was supposedly in his peak years.
Selectve memory and revisionism might make us all think that Ryan was consistent in his wizardry but far from it. He was at times infuriating, hence the reason why he was booed at times. Anyone watching Giggs during those poor spell of his would tyhink he was NOT world class, and its the same thing with Rooney.
At the start of the season, when Roo was banging in goals left, right and centre, people were toutinghim for POtY. Then, he gets injured… as usual…
THat reminds me so much of Giggs.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:17
@owen: @owen: I din’t say the others don’t count, did I?? I said the ones with the truckload of goals count more.
I wouldn’t put Xavi/Iniesta alongside Zidane or Ronaldinho bracket.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:22
Ronaldo was World Player of the year, and Messi is going to be the next. So that does make them that extra bit special than Xavi & Iniesta in me eyes.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:22
@Rahul: I think you have not watched them play…on any day i will take Xavi ahead of Ronaldinho….
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:24
@owen: Yes they are.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:25
@Rahul: Giggs was the player of the season lasy year but he was not better than Gerrard….
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:25
@owen: Only now mate, in his pomp Ronaldinho was unplayable.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:26
@Grognard: no way
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:27
@Red Ranter: Of course he can criticize him RR. But he needs to be prepared for the backlash. Part of the backlash is telling him he should be ashamed for putting down Rooney. It amy be coming across as we are saying he cannot voice his views. On the contrary, he can but he will get his nose bitten off by the multitude of rooney sheep on this blog. And I am the big fat lamb in the front of the group acting as gatekeeper. Let him try to make a lamb kebob out of the Grognard.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:30
@Stephen: Xavi is also unplayable at his position..You cant win a ball from him…96 -97 % pass accuracy ( not like Scholes with only back and side passes)…A mid fielder from Man Utd was taught lesson by him ,dont forget
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:30
@Rahul: And you would be wrong to do so. They are great but not in Zidane’s class or even Ronaldinho when he was in his top form. Both Xavi and Iniesta can completely disappear in game where the midfield is big and physical. Watch the two Chelsea CL matches from last year to see what i mean. Zidane and Ronaldinho saved their best for the best teams. That is what defines a superstar over a world class star.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:31
@owen: And that’s your opinion. While I respect it, I vehemently disagree with it.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:31
@Grognard: Why should someone be ashamed of sharing an opinion? I am genuinely surprised you — of all people — will be in front line of this opinion policing. Backlash is one thing, telling someone what to tell and what not to is entirely different.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:32
@owen: Way.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:33
@owen: I have watched all of them play. And Xavi is not a patch on Ronaldinho. As Stephen said, in his pomp, no one was a patch on Ronaldinho.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:33
@owen: Xavi is the only player in the world who keeps Fabregas out of the team and Fabregas is one of the top 10 players in the world
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:36
@Grognard: What would be wrong of me to do?? You’re confusing me Grog. Did u write that for me or for Owen?
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:36
@Grognard: You remember the Chelsea game but you forget who produced the magic then???
For xavi,remember the Euro Cup where he was player of the tournament…
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:38
@owen: Mate to compare him to an on song Ronaldinho is like chalk and cheese, he got a standing ovation from the Real fans, that was how good he was.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:38
@Red Ranter: Fair enough mate. But still, when someone is wrong, they are wrong. You can sugar coat things and throw all the pc shite out there but the fact remains, Craig has disrespected a great United player. It’s like saying bad things about Charlton, Best and Cantona. Anyone is free to do so but they should be prepared to be lambasted over the fact they are just blatantly WRONG. Besides, my buddy Craig is a big boy who has a very thick skin on him and can dish it out with the best of them. He also can take the abuse unlike me who is a bit more sensitive.
By the way, when I put down Fergie a lot, I honestly feel a sense of shame running through me. My greed and demand for perfection from United often forces me to step on the toes of those I love, Fergie being one of them. So feeling ashamed is not new to me and I am more than man enough to admit that I often cross the line with my abuse of players and managers. But like I said earlier, it’s bad enough many of us abuse the muppets on the team for being useless. Has it now come to the point where our legends get skewered unfairly too? Fine I give a lot to Neville and Scholes because I do not appreciate or respect any legend who outlives his welcome. But Rooney? PLEASE! Bad taste is becoming an epidemic.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:41
@Stephen: But for how much time…Only for 2 years???Is this consistency required by one of the all time best
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:41
@owen: Now look what you did… you brought in Scholes and Giggs and Fabregas into the equation as well. Whatever floats your boat. You think Xavi is the next best thing since sliced bread, have it that way!
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:41
@owen: Fabregas is good player but he is soft. Iniesta is soft. Xavi has a bit more grit in him but here’s the thing. Fabregas is not a starter simply because Spain is presently going through a utopian period where they have a multitude of depth at the central midfield position, 4 or 5 guys deserve to start there. Xavi is very very good but he is not the player you make him out to be and yes, I watch him all the time. I’m also not that won on Fabregas. Why? Because Cesc has never shown up for a big game yet.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:44
@owen: It doesn’t matter he has such ability but he has lost his way, which is a shame he was a joy to watch.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:44
@Rahul: Soory mate. I read your post so quickly I could have sworn I read would and not wouldn’t. My mistake. I actually agree with you. Xavi and Iniesta are definitely not in the same class as Zidane and Bucky the Beaver.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:45
@Grognard: When Rooney showed in Big game… CL final??? Against Porto??? Against Inter???
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:47
@owen: I hate it when people defend a player’s performance by bringing up the one moment in all the game where he did something good. Yes he scored the goal that got them through but he was invisible for all of that game and the one before it. Craig does this with Nani all the time. The guy can be useless and invisible out there and then in one moment he gets a useful cross in the box where we or portugal score and all of a sudden he is a god. Some people please so easily.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:47
@Stephen: Actually the point is not who is better but the question is are they light years ahead???
What you think
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:47
@Grognard:
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:48
@Grognard: The fact you’ve put down plenty of players here, and in fact offended a lot of fellow commenters should make you sensitive and have empathy for another commenter who does the same. That’s all I’m saying. I personally think some of the criticism Rooney has faced is a bit absurd, although he may have regressed a bit. But that doesn’t mean I tell them they must be ashamed for sharing their opinions in this forum.
It has to be both ways. It’s something you’ve yourself fought tooth and nail to protect. And you don’t want to be throwing that all away I’m sure.
Free speech is very hard to adhere to — even for free speech advocates. (It’s not a question of being PC and non PC.)
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:49
@owen: Rooney has been massive in many big games mate. And not just by scoring goals but creating them or having the work ethic and presence to disrupt the opposition. Lets not forget that over the last few years he has often had to play the lone forward role in a defensive formation against top teams. Unfair to him and unfair to judge anyone in games like those.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:51
@Grognard: I still remember while discussing CL final,you told me that yes they were good but to win you have to score and they won due to our defenders mistakes…so yes in big games goals count more than performances
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:55
@Grognard: these situations separate the best from rest..play with defensive set ups and produce a magic like Arshavin did against us or Ronaldo produced against Porto…How much excuse you will produce,,,at the end of season goals count,not your play…Otherwise What is wrong with Berbatov…
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:56
Let’s get off the Rooney thing. It’s becoming tedious now.
The guy is OUR player, not a dipper for Christ sakes. And it’s not like he acted his Looney self, got a red card, and ruined the game for us with 10 men and we lost. We won, he didn’t score, others did.
Rooney might not be the next Xavi (
) but he’s the best we got now.
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:56
@owen: Light years ahead of Rooney?
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:59
@Stephen: Ronaldo and Messi light years ahead of Xavi,Iniesta,Rooney was the conclusion of Grog
November 23rd, 2009 at 21:59
Having said what I said, I’ll say goodnight!!
November 23rd, 2009 at 22:00
@Red Ranter: Oh I don’t know mate, considering the ton of abuse I have received on here over the years, if I give out to a friend and a thick skinned one at that, then I don’t think it’s as bad as you make it out to be. I stand by statement and I do not apologize for it because I honestly feel Craig is wrong about Rooney and that he is showing no respect or appreciation for what this great player has done over the years. Having said that, continually slapping me on the wrist while others are doing the same is not exactly fair either. If you pounced on the bullies who piss me off so much like you do when I get out of line, then you wouldn’t have me get out of line in a retaliatory manner so often. I kind of feel targeted by you and that’s not right. Like I’m the lone gunman here. Newsflash. There have been several men on the grassy knoll letting Craig have it, not just me.
If it’s the “ashamed” bit that gets you well live with it, because I’m not retracting it. It’s not an insult or a swear as I see it. It’s a comment on how I feel a person is acting towards somebody else that I feel is not just wrong but unjustified. If people say to me that my treatment of Anderson or Foster is shameful, I will say fair enough, but at least it’s my honest opinion. Of all the supposed putdowns somebody can throw at me that would set me off, telling me to feel shame is not one of them. I think you are overreacting towards me RR. I’m not upset or mad about it, I’m just a little confused by it.
November 23rd, 2009 at 22:02
@Grognard: Scroll up and read it mate. I meted out this advice to the general public not you in particular. You weren’t the only one giving craig stick. And craig isn’t the only one here who got stick for criticising Rooney. Doni Brasco has seen worse abuse here. You were the only one who responded to my post, so I responded back to you. It’s not my fault that you felt compelled to respond to my general message and take it as if I was only referring to you.
November 23rd, 2009 at 22:02
@owen: Yes I said that and you are proving me right aren’t you. In order for Rooney to get your respect he has to score or he just isn’t good enough for you. I made that comment based on the perceptions of the general public, not my own sentiments. If scoring goals was everything to me, then I wouldn’t be as big a Berbatov fan as I am. God knows he doesn’t score for us at all. Rooney more than capable of scoring. He did early in his career and he does for England. Provide him the service and supply and then just watch. Right now he’s make a meal of every chance because he is going through a spotty patch of bad form, but we all know how streaky he can be. When he is on, he can’t stop scoring.