Nov 27
Manchester United vs Sporting Lisbon: point to prove for Fergie
A quick one today, as the Red Ranter has gone to save the world from various evils while I’m too hungover stoned to care whether Saha will re-injure himself tonight or not.
So, the highlights:
- Ronaldo and Nani are both expected to start - Fergie’s way of ensuring that United win this game and top their group (thus allowing him to rest players for the Roma away game, which comes days before the Liverpool game).
- Saha will get playing time but I doubt that Fergie would risk him too much in such a game - United could play Giggs up front in support of Tevez or Fergie could give Anderson that role.
- Many people will be watching Joao Moutinho with reports that United will bring him in during the January transfer window. A move, if it happens, is more likely to happen next summer.
In recent times United have taken their foot off the pedal in some competitions when they’re ahead / faced with an easy task, but time around Fergie seems intent to put on a strong showing.
Expected starting lineup? I let you guys sort that one out…
- Sporting Lisbon vs Man Utd - Preview
- History Beckons As United Discover Their Group
- Has Nani Penned New Deal?
- Sporting Lisbon 0-1 Man Utd: Local Boy Scores
- Boro v Man Utd: Preview
Tags: Game Preview
November 27th, 2007 at 17:41
Thomas in goal.
November 27th, 2007 at 17:45
Is Moutinho any good at defending and would he be a better aquisition than Veloso? No point in getting them both. I always buy Moutinho in Pro Evo and FM and he looked good when I saw him in the U21 championships during the Summer, but then Veloso looked good too…
November 27th, 2007 at 18:32
he should play anderson behind tevez, giggs has been awful in that area this season..
or play saha and take him off half time, i would bet good money on him getting injured
November 27th, 2007 at 18:48
Moutinho would be a worse buy than Veloso, definitely, he wouldn’t be able to take Anderson’s place in the team so I doubt he’ll come. Veloso looks to be probably the slightly worse player but he’s a better passer, shooter and tackler, and he’s be a good back-up to play DM, Moutinho is the more creative one though. He’s definitely similar to paul scholes escept he scores less, but he controls the tempo of games and he’s got good vision.
November 27th, 2007 at 18:48
I said this before and I’ll say this again, The reason that Fergie seems so interested in Veloso is twofold. First, he needs a better option than Michael Carrick and second and most importantly, he is planning on making United play a 4-2-2-2 formation similar to the Argentina and Barcelona setup that works so well with the pairings of two defensive midfielders (ARG: Mascherano & Cambiasso) (BARC: Xavi & Toure) while playing two attacking midfielders ahead of them and slightly wider (ARG: Riquelme & Messi) (BARC: Ronaldinho & Messi).
This formation allows for two strikers and it also allows complete freedom for very gifted midfielders like Ronaldinho, Riquelme and Messi to do their things without as great a dependence on them defending greatly. If I’m correct Fergie will place Veloso and Hargreaves in the DMF spots and then utilize the dynamic skills of Ronaldo on the right AMF side and any combination of Anderson, Nani and even Giggs on the left AMF side. Veloso and Hargo will cover the defensive responsibilities while occasionally making a run forward but mostly, they are expected to defend and link between the AMF’s.
I myself prefer more of a diamond setup because I prefer two wider winger type midfielders and an attacking midfielder who plays just behind the strikers. Germany play this formation and for me it has the perfect balance because all their players are disciplined enough to come back and help defend. At United you have players like Nani and Ronaldo who don’t like to defend and are not good at it. Therefore, it is vital to adapt a system that gets them off the hook defensively but frees them up offensively to go forward either wide or by cutting in. That extra body of Veloso will always be back there with Hargo to make up for their defensive shortcomings. Also, freeing up Nani, Ronaldo, or Giggs can only benefit our strikers. Watch Argentina, Barcelona, and even Milan to see how they use this system. It really does work if you have incredibly gifted offensive midfielders who like to start wider but cut in on goal a lot. In Ronaldo, Anderson and Nani, we certainly have that. Since we do not like to cross a lot and since we like our fullbacks to overlap a lot, this formation will maximize our offensive potential while still keeping us safe at the back.
For me it’s the best way to go based on the kind of talent and playing personality we have in place. A lot of Portuguese/South American style here and we need to take advantage of it. Carrick and Scholes only quash it and suppress the potential with their holding up the ball and back passing until we go to sleep. In fairness, their roles are a hybrid of mf/dmf and so they are overly cautious at what they do as well as uncomfortable. It’s time to create a better comfort zone by bringing in a player who will literally be the missing link from our defense to our offense. I believe Veloso is our man. Moutinho is a good player but unless the plans are to not bring Scholes or Carrick back, there doesn’t seem like there is any room for him. We’ll see how things play themselves out and whether my theory is correct.
November 27th, 2007 at 18:56
i never thought of that grognard, good analysis, brasil sometimesp lay that way too, with gilberto and minero in the DMF, and ronaldinho and/or kaka and or robinho as the two AMF, with the one left out to play second striker behing a centre forward, man u might do well with that approach, however i always found it bit negtive neverthelss, however, i sometimes see braca play in a 4-3-3 like chelsea
on todays game, hope anderson starts, i see him having a MOM performance if he does
November 27th, 2007 at 19:14
Grognard I doubt that will ever be our system while Fergie is here, there’s every chance that Carlos Queiroz is trying to introduce this style of play but I only think it will happen if/when Carlos becomes our manager. Although after reading about your view on how this would complement the players in our team I have no doubt that we could play this formation with very few problems, plus Anderson played as one of the amf’s for Brazl in the Copa America so I’d assume he’s had a bit of practice playing in that position during training for Brazil matches. Fergie will stick with the old fashioned 4-4-2 slightly adapted so that Anderson goes slightly futher forward and Hargreaves stays slightly further back.Anyway,does anyone else notice that the main problem we need to solve up front is Carlos Tevez, it seems that he needs a certain player to play up front with him regularly or he doesn’t seem as creative. It’s all fine when Rooney and Tevez link up almost telepathically but anytime Tevez has played with someone else he’s been largely ineffective, other than the odd few moments of brilliance. This could become a real problem if Rooney starts to get injured more often, although lets hope he’s back fit again for the rest of the year. And I’m not just basing this on his performances for us, he didn’t play well at West Ham until he formed a good partnership with Zamora and he’s still not been at his best for Argentina in any game he’s played for them this season.
November 27th, 2007 at 20:23
4-5-1
29 Kuszczak
22 O’Shea
05 Ferdinand
15 Vidic
03 Evra
07 Ronaldo
16 Carrick
08 Anderson
24 Fletcher
17 Nani
09 Saha
doubt he’s playing nani upfront lol
November 27th, 2007 at 20:53
anyone have direct tv why am i watching asnl sevilla
November 27th, 2007 at 21:13
0-1 Sporting. Poor keeping. Good shot tho.
November 27th, 2007 at 21:22
Grognard - Ronaldo has, over the years, become good at tracking back and covering the right-back, so saying that he doesn’t like to defend has no effective meaning, because for a right winger / right attacking midfielder Ronaldo does a fair job at defending.
The rest is interesting but projection and a bit of wishful thinking to be honest.
November 27th, 2007 at 21:34
Wildlife at Old Trafford!
November 27th, 2007 at 21:48
SAYING CARRICK IS PLAYING SHITE WOULD BE A complement
November 27th, 2007 at 22:06
Dan; Sorry mate but I have to disagree with you about Ronaldo tracking back. His lack of defensive commitment allowed the ball to be served for one of Arsenal’s goals a few weeks back. He is not comfortable marking or tackling and the 4-2-2-2 formation would help him concentrate on mostly offensive duties.
Conor; You are underestimating the genius of Fergie and the fact that he is the one who wants to move towards a more continental style of play. The reason he has Queiroz as his assistant and not Steve McCLOWN or other British coaches is because he is all for trying to instill a intercontinental style of play. It’s the only way that United can compete and win both the EPL and especially the Champions League. No way he can stay with a traditional 4-4-2 English formation with a Brazilian and so many Portuguese midfielders. They are not adept at crossing or playing that kind of two way football. Partnering both Hargreaves and Veloso in a DMF midfield will allow those creative Portuguese players and Anderson to do their thing. It makes perfect sense and all the great clubs are using this system. Why then would you expect United to stay with an antiquated system that doesn’t work anymore?
November 27th, 2007 at 22:25
RONALDO=BRILLIANCE as simple as that, in some parts of the match what he is doing with the ball and his feef can only be described as MAGIC!!!
i think we will win with 8 mins to go
November 27th, 2007 at 22:37
YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!!! RRRRRROOOOOONNNNNNAAAAAALLLLLLDDDDDDOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!
November 27th, 2007 at 22:48
finaly he scores a free-kick
November 27th, 2007 at 22:49
Oh no!ronaldo is now gonna waste our next 100 free kicks because of this one! carrick was outstanding he was involved in everything, spraying passes long and short,intercepting.he was the MOM for me.tevez changed the game although i think it was an own goal
November 27th, 2007 at 22:56
Ronaldo now probably thinks he is entitled to every free kick!carrick was outstanding today he was brilliant MOM for me.tevez changed the game totally
November 27th, 2007 at 23:02
my man of the match is carrick.he played an outstanding game today.nani was shabby today and thing got better after tevez and giggs came on.great goal by ronaldo.
November 27th, 2007 at 23:07
Yeah nani was terrible.he had/has? such a poor first touch and poor passing,and his decision making is just plain crap.he looked un-footballer like.
November 27th, 2007 at 23:08
Taehr & Ebrahim I thought Carrick was terrible, he made a few good long passes but lost the ball many times and contributed little. Also your judgement on Nani mirrors that of many when Ronaldo first came, he’s going to have many more games like that until next year and maybe the year after. If he wasn’t any good at shooting or corners I’m sure everyone would be saying he is/was a terrible acquisition.
Grognard firstly it was Ahmed who said about Ronaldo tracking back, which I agree about by the way, not Dan. And plus you can’t make a judgement on that one peice of poor marking, he may not be a great marker but he tracks back and helps out the defense more often, plus by him tracking back it puts him in a good position to allows someone to play a short pass to him and start off a counter attack with him running from deep with the ball, I noticed that during this season and last season. Also, although I compltely agree that he is beginning to change to a slightly more european style of play he won’t be going completely South American style, and I think all this talk about formations is drawn out, we’re meant to be a very ‘fluid’ and ‘interchanging’ team so therefore a 4-4-2 is really a 4-2-2-2 just with some players pushed further back, as our wingers already cut inside and drift about regularly, and Hargreaves already sits back.I also pointed out that our formation was already slightly adapted to the way it used to be, and obviously teams will change with different players, therefore I didn’t intend to imply that we would be constantly croosing balls in as we don’t have many good headers or crossers. ” It makes perfect sense and all the great clubs are using this system. ” no Grognard all the great teams have changed the formation to suit their players. Milan play a 4-3-2-1,Inter play a fairly normal 4-4-2, as do Real Madrid, Barcelona play a 4-3-3, Chelsea play a 4-3-3, Arsenal play a 4-4-2, and Bayern Munich play a 4-1-2-1. Only a select few play a 4-2-2-2 - Liverpool, Argentina and Brazil are the ones that I know of.
November 27th, 2007 at 23:11
Moutinho?invisible.veloso?1 good shot….about it.if united want a talent they should look at the sporting goal keeper
November 28th, 2007 at 0:01
lets play 2-6-2 like my pro evo team
November 28th, 2007 at 0:07
I thought that Veloso was great Taehr. On many occasions he made some good blocks to prevent us from getting through. On the RTE CL show Eamonn Dunphy said something that really annoyed me he said ‘5 of the players in the United team today , I don’t consider to be United quality. Fletcher, O’Shea, Carrick, Nani and oh yeah ANDERSON. That senile prick actually that Anderson isn’t good enough to play for United when the fact is that the only time that he’s seen him play was in the Carling Cup. How they can allow someone who doesn’t even watch football to be a pundit is beyond me. He then went on to say that Sevilla are the best Spanish team in the tournament, this is after seeing Barca beat Lyon, so the best team in Spain isn’t Real Madrid, it isn’t Barcelona, no it’s Sevilla. He said that the semi-finals would be United, Chelski, Arsenal and Sevilla if they weren’t drawn against each other along the way. AND HE WAS SERIOUS. I couldn’t believe what he said.
November 28th, 2007 at 0:22
HA! anderson, not good enough ey? bollocks. he should actually watch some football before opening his mouth. and to insult players like o’shea is ridiculous. he doesnt know what o’shea has achieved at united. jeez what a numpty
November 28th, 2007 at 1:30
Grognard, I saw you post the 4-2-2-2 idea several days ago, and I love it. I’ve actually been using it in FIFA 08 and it’s working great for me. Although some people may see it as wishful thinking, if Veloso does come to Man Utd I can’t really see us using any other formation while both he and Hargreaves are fit. Plus, Nani, Ronaldo, and Anderson would be able to rotate somewhat and they wouldn’t burn out.
By the way, I thought Veloso played fairly well tonight (despite his 2? handballs), he plays great defence and protects the back 4 well. In addition, he definitely looks like a threat from set pieces.
November 28th, 2007 at 7:28
Conor; I agree in part on your comments on formations. No team sticks to just one formation as that would be stupid and predictable. It’s just that the 4-2-2-2 or 4-2-3-1 formation best suits the club based on the talent we presently have and what it sees we are prepared to go out and buy. The great thing about Ronaldo, Nani and Anderson is that they can continually rotate which means that no defense can ever be comfortable about placing a specific defender against a specific player.
As for Ronaldo’s free kick, it was sublime but I am not yet ready to say he should continue taking them. He has been far to inconsistent with then in the past but did every one notice that this one was hit with a different style and with plenty of spin. He didn’t just run up and bash it. It had finesse written all over it. That means that Ronny has been hearing the criticism and has practiced hard to alter his approach and not be a one trick pony on free kicks.
Now regarding Carrick. He was shite as usual. Sorry Ebrahim but I couldn’t disagree more.
He just looks so out of his element. I’ve just come to realize that he just isn’t good enough to play at the elite level of the Champions League and with a top 3 side. Having said that, he would have been a godsend for Arsenal tonight. Hopefully their loss is the beginning of more to come as that has to have shaken their confidence a bit. Sure a lot of regulars were out but still, they looked awful.
Well we lucked one out against Sporting and now it’s on to the weekend. Lets hope we get a lot better and fast.
November 28th, 2007 at 7:40
Kurt; 4-2-2-2 is the best of both worlds really. You have two great defensive midfielders really making it difficult to beat a team by coming up the middle and if you have outstanding attacking midfielders/wingers you can really exploit a teams defenses by giving them total freedom to move wide or cut in and interact well with the two forwards. A lot of potential for beautiful give and go football. This also allows fullbacks like Evra to overlap on the wide left and really stretch a defense. Knowing that Hargo and or Veloso are back watching the fort will allow Neville (or whoever wins the RB spot) and Evra to really attack more often. Where we would be vulnerable against is traditional old English style teams who move the ball wide and like to cross. The good thing is that we should have our two DMF’s in the box ready to break up any cross.
As for FIFA 08, 4-2-2-2 is fine but 4-1-2-1-2 Diamond works extremely well if you can get an attacking midfielder who is known for scoring goals. Place a Ballack, Lampard, Gerrard, Riquelme, Kaka in that spot and watch the goals come. It doesn’t matter if your strikers are any good. They will end up getting a lot of cheap goals from rebounds and blocks. You also have to have a premier DMF who has great pace to break up plays. Hargo is a god in FIFA 08 as is Essien and Cambiasso.
November 28th, 2007 at 7:45
One more thing. Tevez proved today that even if we could go out and buy a top line striker, he would be an ideal super sub. His enthusiasm, pace and desire was just the injection United needed today. I certainly cannot say that Saha ever gives us that off the bench or starting. He often comes in as a sub with Argentina and the result is often the same.
November 28th, 2007 at 9:49
Well! That was close. Too close. We did, however, show sign of a truely great team: we pulled a result even though we played terribly (at least by our standards). Aside from the very end of the match, Ronaldo looked less than imperious. He seemed to be on a different page than his teammates; but that could be due to the fact than this was a different team than he usually plays with. It looks like Ronny has changed his free kick strategy. It looked like he was actually aiming for the goal. This just when I was getting used to his hit-the-wall-as-hard-as-you-can-and-see-what-happens strategy. Carrick played as well as ever. Fletcher was utterly shite; and i’m not even a member of the Fletcher is Shite club. Tomasz really made a horrible mistake and he knows it. He might even be dropped for it. I could see Fergie picking Heaton to fill in for the couple games that vdS won’t play til Foster recovers. After that goal, you could tell His confidence was gone. He looked terrified of the ball until the and of the half. Fortunately he seemed to have dusted himself off a bit for the second half and made a couple good plays that half-way made up for his blunder. The peculiar thing about keeping goal is that not messing up is much more important than making a good play. All the spectacualar saves in the world won’t win a game, but a stupid mistake like being slightly out of position; a mistake an outfield player might make a half-dozen times a game; can surely lose a game.
Veloso was class for Sporting C.P. today. He didn’t allow our lads any time on the ball and even got involved on the offensive end a bit. I think he’d look great in red. He’d be a good buy for us because he could also cover for Evra at left back. This is good because that’s the one position where we lack depth since Heinze effed off to spain. it also means that we’d never see silvestre again, and i’m not complaining. This transfer would best be saved for the summer. Especially if Scholes or Giggsy hang up their boots at the end of the season.
November 28th, 2007 at 9:55
we all saw what ronaldo can do when he is on the pitch and thats why i still insist it wasn’t very wise for fergy to leave him out for the trip to the reebok and i hope he has learned his lesson..no ronaldo no ronal-goals…
November 28th, 2007 at 11:34
Grognard, I disagree with your asessment of changing to 4222.
“At United you have players like Nani and Ronaldo who don’t like to defend
- It is for this reason that we have TWO strikers that track back and defend. By them going deep, it allows for the “wingers” to go upfield. The front 4 actually compliment each other. It is for this reason that our wingers are amongst the top scorers at the club.
With 4222, we will either be exposed by the width of the field, or the wide players must stay wide and cannot play to their best ability of scoring goals - aka Ronaldo.
We are at our best currently with 442/244 (we like to play with wingbacks in 442, which changes it to a sort of 244), which SAF seems intent on changing to 451 (his version of 433 - which incidently is what Barca plays 433 or more precisely, 4321).
Under SAF, United’s style have always been to “attack in numbers and defend in numbers”. I don’t see this chaning soon.
November 28th, 2007 at 13:32
[7. Conor]
“Anyway,does anyone else notice that the main problem we need to solve up front is Carlos Tevez, it seems that he needs a certain player to play up front with him regularly or he doesn’t seem as creative. It’s all fine when Rooney and Tevez link up almost telepathically but anytime Tevez has played with someone else he’s been largely ineffective, other than the odd few moments of brilliance.”
- I don’t think its Tevez. Its more the players that are paired with him. In the beginning it was Giggs, who played awfull at the time. Recently Saha. Rooney was started with Saha recently, and even he seemed ineffective.
- Tevez played very well last night. I think Saha has confidence issues at the moment.
November 28th, 2007 at 18:34
KARL; If you don’t think it’s Tevez but the player’s he is paired with then why did you start of your post by saying that United needed to solve a problem up front and that was Carlos Tevez??????? What you said makes no sense at all. One minute you are blaming him then you are blaming Giggs and Saha for not pairing up well with him. Which one is it?
There is nothing wrong with Tevez other than the occasional sure goal missed. The problem is definitely an out of shape, out of form and out of desire Louis Saha. Under our system of play, unless his partner show up to, Tevez is left out there alone in the wilderness. It’s a tough role where he doesn’t have the physical presence to dominate. Very few players do. That is why Rooney is so vital to our offense. We definitely need to solve our third striker problem in January or it will cost us. Clearly Saha is not up for the job and it’s time to move him as well as Carrick. The sooner the better.
I am down on Berbatov because of his attitude but he may possess the necessary style and skill that would link up well with Tevez or Rooney. Huntelaar and Anelka need to be looked at. And although I am certainly not down on Tevez, he showed me yesterday just how good he can be when he comes off the bench. Full of piss and vinegar and working his balls off.
This has made me consider using him as our super sub and signing a big name striker to compliment Rooney.
And Karl I definitely disagree with your assessment of the 4-2-2-2. Go back and read what I have written carefully. I covered all aspects of the formation and why it would work so well with the talent base and style we now possess, and with the addition of one Veloso. If it works for some of the greatest teams in the world, then it certainly can work for us too. I’m in favor of it coupled with an occasional 4-3-3 to offer the option of more width. However, width only benefits teams greatly if it has great crossers. We don’t have any great crossers of the ball. Remember that. And can everyone please forget 4-4-2. It’s an old fashioned and very antiquated formation that just doesn’t cut it anymore. Just ask England about using old antiquated styles with no imagination. You cannot win in Europe playing 4-4-2.
November 28th, 2007 at 21:07
Grognard he was quoting me.
November 29th, 2007 at 13:06
[Grognard]
1. Regarding Tevez, see comment 36.
2. Regarding the 4222 formation:
- and, from your descriptions of 4222, it appears we are already playing that. With 2 exceptions of:
I re-read your comments again - took a while though
a) We call it 442
b) United will not allow any player NOT to do defensive duties. Not even strikers (main reason why SAF did not make a real effort to keep RVN at the club). We always attack in numbers, defend in numbers. The main reason that our wide players scores so many goals is because of their advanced positions when we play. However, Ronaldo and company will always be required to do defensive duties.
You say:
“can everyone please forget 4-4-2. It’s an old fashioned and very antiquated formation that just doesn’t cut it anymore”
1. Seems like SAF agrees with you, therefore his insistence with 433/451.
2. Incidently, this formation that you criticise is our most successful formation.
3. This is the same formation that you propose.
As I mentioned, our 442 is an “adaptive” one. We start off with traditional 442 (during our shaky first 10mins of every half), then we move to 424 (with our front players interchanging and dropping back and pushing up, utilising the space - inside and on the wings). When we pressed for goals, we switch to 244 (with our wide players pushing up - backs and mids) and when we defend desperately, we switch to 4411.
At the end of the day, formation arguments are useless, because we’re arguing the about same thing. It’s just figures. If I can be technical, then according to our player positions on the field, I would say that United plays 222211 (CB,CB,WB,WB,CM,CM,RW,LW,CF,ST).
November 29th, 2007 at 13:12
SAF is busy building a team to play total football.