Nov 16

Moyes’ momentum gathering pace

Tag: Opinion Piece @ 8:30 am

187578174After a poor start to the season, Manchester United have seemingly started to pick up some momentum, winning three league games in a row and going nine games unbeaten in all competitions, as David Moyes looks to have finally found his feet at Old Trafford.

Sunday’s 1-0 win against league leaders Arsenal put United within five points of the North Londoners and only a point behind Chelsea, while despite losing 4-1 to Manchester City in September, the Reds are now a point ahead of their big spending neighbours, whose shaky form away from home shows no signs of improving.

Having endured their worst ever start to a Premier League campaign, United entered Sunday’s clash with Arsenal knowing that a defeat would see them slip 11 points behind Arsenal, thus all but ending their hopes of defending the title.

David Moyes’ arrival and a demanding run of games in the opening month saw United getting out of the blocks in lethargic fashion, with the Reds winning only two of their opening five games, an incredibly slow start even for a time like United which, in years gone by, have become accustomed to solid, but not explosive, starts.

There are, however, plenty of reasons to be optimistic, as Moyes’ teams have always got off to slow starts, before powering home in the second half of the season.

During four of his last five seasons at Everton, Moyes never registered more than four wins in the opening 11 games, with the Toffees failing to pick up more than 15 points in each of those occasions, the seventh place they found themselves in in the 2008-09 season, the highest position they achieved at this stage of the season.

However, Everton seemed to kick on from January onward, picking up more points than any other Premier League club in the final 11 games of the season, as Moyes’ men surged up the table, while other teams toiled away crippled by post-Christmas exhaustion.

Last season Everton suffered a slump in form midway through the season after a surprisingly positive start, before picking up their form yet again to secure six wins and three draws in the last 11 matches meaning that David Moyes has lost only eight times in the combined 55 (the last 11 games of each campaign) end of the season matches over the last five seasons.

Everton’s superb form from January onwards has often been attributed to Moyes’ gruelling training regimes, which might cost his teams a few points but ensures a strong second half of the campaign, and many United players have admitted being surprise by the fitness standard demanded by their new manager.

Obviously at Everton Moyes could concentrate on the Premier League without the distraction of European football, but he has a bigger squad at his disposal at United and with the January transfer window still to come, a strong second half to David Moyes’ first campaign at Old Trafford could be on the cards.

Dan


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Tags: Opinion Piece

76 Responses to “Moyes’ momentum gathering pace”

  • What momentum? We’ve stumbled through a handful of matches. Unable to play for a whole 90 minutes in any game.
    Scraping wins or draws with little to no style on display.
    Christ, Arsenal could easily have won the other week with our insipid second falf display and it’s only a matter of time until Moyes’ fearful, negative tactics come back to bite him, and United on the arse.
    I’m amazed how many United fans are accepting this blatant lowering of standards and expectations.
    It’s madness.
    We’ve been really poor this season and if Moyes thinks we’re getting better then he needs hhis eyes testing. Sharpish.

    • @BigRed: Whether we’ve stumbled through games or not, we have won four of the last five Premier League games, more than any other club which, to me at least, looks like building momentum, small and laboured though it might be. Moyes has played Rooney, Van Persie, Kagawa and Valencia at the same time, which I don’t think can be classified as “negative tactics” – they certainly weren’t under Sir Alex.

      Obviously I’d like to see us tearing teams apart like in the early 90s, but given it’s not going to happen anytime soon and given we’re in the early stages of arguably the biggest revolution this club has endured since Sir Matt left, I’m rather happy with fighting for wins here and there, if that means we remain competitive, while Moyes develops the team as he wants, then so be it.

      I know you don’t like Moyes, a totally respectable opinion which I’m not going to attempt to change, but I think the negativity surrounding United this season has been a bit exaggerated.

      • @Dan: Dan, Agreed. The talk of negative tactics are getting boring. He plays with 2 striker and two wingers, Kawgwa or Januzaj currently seem to be his choice, how is that negative? Under Ferguson, it wasn’t, it was cavalier. We could have lost to Arsenal, but we could have won at home against Southampton and I believe we were unlucky not to get a point at Anfield. We are 9 games unbeaten and not playing well, if this was under Ferguson, people would say it is the mark of Champions. If Moyes goes for a World class player he is not going for realistic targets, if he goes for players he knows we are turning into Everton. He may fail, but he also may succeed. He has made mistakes, which he was always going to do. One thing I will do is allow him time, either way.

        • @Stephen:

          Hello Stephen…..
          “We are 9 games unbeaten and not playing well, if this was under Ferguson, people would say it is the mark of Champions”

          You are spot on with that comment.

          Yes they would but those are the same people who a**licked SAF…. your Hansen’s who never lived down ‘you win nothing with kids’ comment…. your Lawrenson’s, who felt because they played for Liverpool couldn’t be too scathing against their bitter rivals and…. your Shearer’s who’s comments have always smacked of ‘saying what sounds clever rather than saying what is clever.

          I would ask this of you …….

          Would you prefer to see the premiership come to OT this season through the side door or would you prefer to miss out on the title this season and build a team worthy of winning through the ‘Proper Door’, playing the MUFC way?

          Macca

      • @Dan: Fair enough Dan, but don’t you think Moyes has brought a lot of this on himslef?
        Fergie spent 25 years or so building something that could carry over into the new mangers tenure, building continuity.
        Bearing in mind we were told repeatedly, by Kenyon, Gill, Charlton and Fergie, that when the new manager comes in it won’t mean wholesale change, he’ll just pick up the reigns and carry on. Moyes has come in and thrown the whole lot in the bin and began building his own thing. Essentially rebuilding something that didn’t need rebuilding.
        He’s patently opted for revolution over evolution. Essentially a backwards way of doing it and largely undoing all the foundations that Fergie put in place.
        For me, that encourages criticism, it encourages analysis of a less than favorable nature.
        So i think it’s only right that every decision he makes be scrutinized and criticised if necessary.
        It wouldn’t be a stretch to describe what Moyes has done as “breaking us”.
        And his insistence on replacing time served people with a track record of succes with his old gang from Everton and Preston screams out a lack of ambition.
        When you come to United, you’re expected to make a step up to the next level, but instead Moyes has brought the last level with him.

        • @BigRed:
          How has he gone from evolution to revolution? We are playing the same system, with the same players?
          We do need rebuilding. The midfield is an issue. Rio, Carrick, Evra, Giggs and RvP are in their 30′s. Lets not forget, he did a good job at Everton. He bought Arteta, Baines, Fellaini, Phil Neville, Distan, Howard, Donovan and Jagielka who all did well. He produced, Rooney, Barkley and Coleman through the ranks. Yes United are a different prospect, but anyone taking the job would struggle taking over from Fergie.

  • What also amazes me is how people are so analytical about his press conferences. Who cares?! Every manager talks rubbish, Mourinho is the worst. People sit crossed legged starry eyed with his wisdom about Wenger being a voyeur, or his views on eggs. It is just another stick to beat him with, give him time, you never know.

    • @Stephen:

      Hello Stephen…

      “What also amazes me is how people are so analytical about his press conferences. Who cares?! Every manager talks rubbish”

      Holy Mother Teresa….
      I care, for a start. You don’t think I winced when SAF made balls ups… the one that springs to mind is when he leaned over at a press conference and asked who a reporter was and then said….. “We’ll ban him.”

      It’s cheap, it’s tacky and it’s not MUFC.

      As for “all managers talk rubbish”…. well that says two things to me.
      1)…. You are quite happy that a MUFC manager just goes along with what others do…… and…
      2)… You are quite happy to accept ‘rubbish’ from the mouth of our manager.

      And ‘you are disappointed’ with negativity on this site???????

      Macca

      • @mike_macca: Eh, what are you talking about?
        How am I being negative? Why are you so obsessed with press conferences? You don’t rate Moyes and this is your right. You are just finding faults with everything he does or says.
        The players are playing for him and that speaks volumes. I do not know if he will make it, but I will allow him something some won’t do, time.

        • @Stephen:

          Hello Stephen…

          I was going to ask you to quote where I indicated ‘you’ were negative and to ask did you properly read my posting.

          Perhaps a better question would be….. Can you read?

          I am not obsessed with press conferences I am concerned with BS press conferences and DM never fails to deliver.

          “You are just finding faults with everything he does or says.”
          I don’t think I am finding fault with ‘everything’ he does’…… but if you quote your evidence I will review.

          “The players are playing for him and that speaks volumes.”
          Well 2 things spring to mind…
          1)…. Everyone works for their salary pay cheque and these ‘superstars’ are no different
          2)… If their current play is speaking volumes to you, I would say you are easily pleased.

          You are now the president of LMA.

          Macca

      • @mike_macca: Nobody cares about his orations. Stop being so nitpicky about shit that doesn’t matter.
        DM will be judged by how United perform in the win-loss columns and not by his personality in a press conference.
        Do you want a charmer or a winner??

        And by the way if you feel the need to reply to this, can we drop the “Hello” bullshit – this is a vibrant blog with passionate viewpoints and not a Sunday afternoon visit at the vicarage.

    • @Stephen: The players you mention above may well have been good enough for Everton. You say they did well, but i think that depends on your definition on “done well”. Is never challenging for silverware doing well? Playing with absolutely no expectation to really do well and actually win something, or at least challenge. Would you accept that standard of player at United? I wouldn’t. Mainly because doing well for Everton is nowhere near good enough for United’s definition of “doing well”. i.e. The expectation to win something every year and to challenge for the title EVERY year.

      And just to clear this up Coleman was 20+ years old when Everton bought him, so it’s questionable whether Moyes, or Murtough, had any significant involvement in his “development”.

      As for you opening qestion regarding how Moyes is opting for revolution over evolution, i think i answered that in my original post to which you responded.

      Everytime Moyes opens his mouth, what comes out is what sounds remarkably like severley lowered expectations. For example, after the City mauling Moyes even suggested that we might expereience a few more results like that. Defeatism at it’s best. Prior to the season starting he said he would be happy to start the season with last years squad, so impressed was he with the players in the training. A month into the season and he’s saying thet we’re not good enough and lack the quality to challenge. Again, a very public piece of squad bashing. Very motivational. And he keeps doing it. Referring to Rooney as RVP’s sidekick. Saying he has to see more of Kagawa, suggesting he doesn’t watch, or know anything about German football or Kagawa’s impact there.
      He sounds like a mug at times.

  • Something that Moyes seems to be getting a grip on is who his first 11-15 players are.

    His selection is increasingly tapering more or less around the following players, with the only positions where he is tinkering between 3-4 options back-slashed, or left entirely blank:

    Goalkeeper: De Gea

    Right back: Raphael
    Left back: Evra (still our best bet from our current players)

    Centre-back:
    Centre-back:

    Right wing: Valencia (not yet back to his barnstorming best, but getting there)

    Left wing: Kagawa/Januzaj/Giggs (in that order it seems – depending on form, fitness, team played against, point in the game. And last but not least, on the return of a player Moyes obviously rates: Wellbeck)

    Centre-mid: Carrick/Jones/Cleverly/Fellaini (depending on form etc…)

    Support striker: Rooney
    Lead striker: van Persie

    The only two positions where “steady-Eddie-Moyes” doesn’t seem to have quite figured out his first and second choices, or combinations, is centre-back. Vidic still seems like the first among equals, despite the rigors of age and his style of play catching up with him, but who ought to partner with him. The player who does it best, Rio, seems to have deservedly fallen down the pecking order to 3rd or 4th choice.

    Evans who is the probably the next best talent after the two, still has occasional bouts of the nerves, and has this worrying habit of pointing at his fellow players when he has the ball with a desperation of hand that betrays a fear he is about to lose possession – unless someone opens up fast. A doubt-inducing habit only bested by Cleverly. Jones and Smalling on the other hand, blow hot & cold plus rarely get good runs in what ought to be their best positions.

    But the smart money suggests that in his slow-but-sure (or plodding, depending on your view) way, Moyes will have the centre-back pairing figured out by Christmas. Which means that by January or latest the Summer break, he shall be able to go cap in hand & ask the carpetbaggers for $$ to get the 2-4 players he needs to make this good team, at least, very good. A Herrera in the middle here, a Luck Shaw down there, and perhaps a Garay way down over there.

    Yet, even with his fairly good core current team, 2-4 new personnel, and a youthful additions like say Lindergaard or one of the Keanes; Moyes will still be two other elements shy of turning what will be admittedly a very good team, to a great one:

    1. A great formation: as Jay Wire has pointed out severally, Moyes sets up his team in ways that make you ask if he knows how to bring out the best from them. His fear of Rooney that forces Kagawa and Januzaj to the left, his inability to go beyond the staid 4-4-2 of Fergie’s heyday, his attempt to recreate Everton’s Baines-Pienaar play in Evra-Kagawa, or to send in Fellaini to smash up other teams in gritty attempts to defend 1-0 leads or smash-and-grab 1-0 wins.

    The nagging doubt that with the likes of Neville nearby, it may be some time before Moyes nurtures a footballing philosophy that can be spoken of in the same breath as that of Martinez or Laudrup, let alone Klopp and Guardiola. Fact is, it’s not enough to have a great team. Football is an art, like music. And great musicians also need a great musical score and a great conductor in order to create great music.

    2. Great spirit: this was one of Fergie’s strengths. It may be said after the Arsenal game, that Moyes has started feeding into it once more. One small difference: Moyes men played like lions when -in the dying minutes of the game- they were defending a 1-0 lead; Fergie’s boys also stretched sinews in the dying minutes of many a game but not to defend slim leads? No – to win!

    There is a reason why one commentator once said, “There few sights more thrilling in football than watching Manchester United chasing a game.”

    http://vimeo.com/67305423

    Here’s hoping Moyes gets those two last elements in.

  • I would obviously take the title macca mate. People have said for years, “this isn’t the best United side” ect. If we won the title this year I would be delighted, end of.
    Why would it be through the back door? Was last season through the back door then? City winning it was.

    • @Stephen:

      Hello Stephen…..

      Well that’s where we differ.

      Honestly……. I would forgo the title this season, if it meant we built a side that ‘CRUCIFIED’ the opposition next season and won in the MUFC tradition.

      How was last season through the back door?…. We won at a canter.

      The City win, whilst still difficult to fathom was probably the kick up the backside that MUFC needed.
      We have looked the ropey side we currently are, for quite a few seasons but still manage to win the title… Why is that?

      One answer is ‘quality’…… Quality of the premiership opposition. There isn’t any quality around.

      Only 4 teams that can win the title!!!!!…. That’s a ridiculous number from supposedly the ‘best’ league in the world.

      Macca

      • @mike_macca: Well in Spain, only 2 can win the title.
        We have not got the budget of City and Chelsea. Ferguson had to change tact and did so brilliantly. Was the side last season “quality” no. RvP was brilliant, so was Carrick and Rio. But not one of our wingers performed and the title was really down to Fergie, who rotated the side to perfection.
        Whe have not played the swash buckling United of old for seasons. Even the 07 side was built on solid foundations. Moyes plays with Januzaj, Kagawa and with 2 strikers. Yes he is more pragmatic, but hopefully he is learning. He does need to knock taking strikers off for defenders on the head through.

        • @Stephen:

          Hello Stephen….

          I agree that outside of Madrid and Barca the others play for 3rd and 4th place… but you could say that in a lot of footballing countries.
          My point was, that the premiership themselves love to shout how their league is the best in the world, when really it is a 4 team challenge…

          You are correct, last season’s side was inferior and you have made my point, the demise of quality in MUFC and continuing to win the title season after season adds credence to my earlier point that the premiership isn’t that great.

          Taking strikers off:
          I was critical of the win against Arsenal on a number of points, one being, DM’s negative move 15 mins from time….. but I am now going to cut him some slack and say he was so fearful of dropping the points that he decided to take what he had and defend it…….. not his finest moment nor the defence’s finest hour either.

          Here’s to Christmas and a further 20 points….. and to a better new year

          Macca

  • Momentum is a little bit rich. Beating Arsenal is our only real result of the season (as well as an undeserved draw against Shaktar). We have developed a bit more grit and will be able to grind out enough wins to hopefully finish in the top four over the next few seasons (until players like Vidic, Van Persie and Carrick retire and then we are royally screwed). But I cannot see us winning a title under Moyes.

    We are in desperate need of new signings but Moyes simply cannot attract the big names and cannot seem to identify talent. Fellaini has lost his place to Phil Jones FFS and we blew our entire transfer budget on him. We do have some promising youngsters within our ranks but under Moyes we are having real problems scoring goals and keeping possession and our defence is often leaky as well and flair players wilt without the ball while there are no promising defensive or central midfielders within our ranks.

    Moyes’ plan seems to be to create a hard working disciplined team that is difficult to beat. No doubt he will try to sign a central defender after he lands Baines from Everton. But with central midfielders he seems to have even worse taste than Ferguson, who at least had the vision early in his career to identify Keane and Ince as signings even if he flopped with Anderson, Kleberson, Veron, Djemba Djemba and failing to keep Pogba.

    Ferguson ignored central midfield and made excellent signings elsewhere on the pitch in his later years including De Gea, Kagawa, Van Persie and maybe Jones and Smalling will eventually fit into that category.

    Moyes to his credit identified the need but proceeded to waste £27M on Fellaini. And who is to say that if he tries to sign another central midfielder it won’t turn out to be an even bigger waste of money?

    There are players that could be available who would be good additions such as Reus, Vidal, Gustavo, Fernando, and Gonalons. But Moyes seems to be very uncomfortable signing players he is not comfortable with (he is still stuck in the penny pinching Everton mentality) and would rather overpay for known quantities such as Fellaini and Baines.

    • @colver: “But Moyes seems to be very uncomfortable signing players he is not comfortable with”

      This is very enlightening of you mate. I’ve often been uncomfortable when I’m not comfortable myself – strange that!!

      But seriously I take exception to the idea that Moyes cannot attract new signings. Do you have more information than anyone else does? Do you feel that Moyes has more influence over what a players agent contrives as an attraction than the wallets of the owners? Do you believe that the current PL Champions and the 3 times CL winners are a less of a draw because of Moyes and not despite of Moyes.
      Way too much reaching with your assumptions for my liking. You along with the rest of the Moyes detractors, have found reasons to find fault in the nooks and crannies of what is a United career that has lasted, so far, a whole FOUR AND A HALF MONTHS.
      The microscope is on him, but I would have thought it would be from the ABU nation and not from us.

  • Can I read? Is that the best you can do? Grow up little boy, what a pathetic cheap jibe, this blog used to be better than that, we could have intellectual footy debates.

  • Hello Maccamug,

    That is rich coming from a glory boy mug like you, who can hardly post anything legible, fuck off back to your council house you prick.

    Cheers Stephen

    • @Stephen:

      Mr President……

      Was that one of the quality postings you remember? ……

      Macca

    • @Stephen: Hmmm, mature.
      Is that some of the bile being spurted that you mentioned previously.
      Hardly the intellectual debate you were pining for, or is it?

    • @Stephen:

      Mr President you are a pretentious snob….. What is wrong with council housing?
      Fine people came from council homes and fine people still live on council estates.
      If you want to fight then so be it…… just don’t drag those people into the gutter with you.

      Macca

  • Better than the shite you have spouted, “he is at it again” bollox.

  • Ha ha you mug, maybe glory boy, you should support somee one nearer home, maybe Chelsea? Mr President..

    Cheers Stephen

  • What has this got to do with you? Piss off.

    • @Stephen:

      Just stop with your vulgar comments. You sound off about serious debate and intellectual postings and then you write the vile comments you have written.
      You had better ‘get real’ sooner rather than later because I am not writing everything is wonderful in shangri-la when it isn’t.

      Macca

  • Macca, you were the one who started it pal, what now are you the Red Rants union leader, give me a break.

    • @Stephen:

      Didn’t start anything. You were always looking to fight. If it wasn’t me it would be someone else, that’s the sort you are.

      As for me being your ‘Pal’……. Yeah right

      Macca

    • @Stephen:

      In conclusion……

      Your ‘gutter comments’ have received the last response from me….
      Goodbye

      I will respond to posters who want to discuss the finer points of MUFC and who don’t get all ‘childish’ should I disagree with them.

      Macca

  • I have been on this site for years you mug, was it me asked if I could read? You started it, so stop with all the bollox, grow up little man and look at yourself.

  • Sorry it is knocking 7pm, passed your bedtime, enjoy your Nuts magazine little boy.

  • Stephen, Macca, wind your necks in boys and bring the bitching to an end please no matter who started it. :)

  • 1. Who cares what Moyes says at a Press Conference?
    - millions of fans
    -the media
    -players
    -rivals

    Who doesn’t care? Simple. Anyone with less than a small dose of interest in Manchester United and football at large

    2. Should anyone blindly and unconditionally support and back David Moyes?

    No.

    3. Should we be sympathetic to the fact that maybe Moyes is out ofhis depth?

    No. He is being paid serious money every month to manage what is arguably the biggest football club in history. We expect competence as a bare minimum and perfection and excellence a s pre-requisites,not luxuries. Besides,there are plenty of managers who are first timers this season at big clubs,for whom noone is willing to give room for mistakes. Martino at Barca, and Pellegrini at City. If Moyes is not up to the requisite level,he ought not to have been hired. Everyone expects City to win the league this season. Everyone expects Barca to sweep everything,but their new manager only came to Europe this year. Pep in his first season coming from the Reserves won everything placed before him. That’s the equivalent of Warren Joyce hitting the treble as soon as he takes over the first team. AVB at Porto. Antonio Conte at Juventus. Jurgen Klopp at BVB. No excuses.So if Moyes is not expected to win the league this season,and challenge for the CL trophy too,then why did he get hired? It’s not just quality of players. Conte has gained success with a former MUFC youth player who failed to win a one on one for a place in midfield against Rafael,an inexperienced RB. Jurgen Klopp owes a serious debt to Shinji Kagawa for his last league title. The same Kagawa that apparently can’t cut it at United. Pep’s first course of action was to get rid of Barca’s main superstars and first team players and replaced them with virtual unknowns. YayaToure, Deco,VanBommel, Guily were permanently replaced by squad players like Iniesta and Messi and Academy products like Busquets and Pique. They became real stars only after he took over. Who knew of players like Kagawa,Gotze,Lewandowski or Gundogan. So this player quality excuse is rubbish. We have quality in our ranks. It’s simply misused and wasted. Why should Zaha be loaned out? In fact,apart froma midfield playmaker,Moyed has a very strong team to work with.Carrick is good enough to start for many teams out there and has provenhis quality. RvP,Rooney,Kagawa,Nani,AJ are definite quality. De Gea,Evra,Vidic,Evans and Rio are good enough quality. Who knows there might be another Pogba in the Youth setup.The fact is Moyes is not optimally utilising his squad. Btw,it’s not just about playing a so called attacking line up. Football us not played by names but by players in systematic roles. You can have 5 world class attackers but a poor strategy of combining them. Results normally mirror those enjoyed by amateur football teams.

    And please,as much as it was good to win against an in form Arsenal,it’s not to be described as a turn around. Let’s not kid ourselves,the football has been horrible. I don’t think in all competitions you can count on more than one hand the matches we won deservedly and comfortably. And I include the pre season friendlies. Martino took over nearly a month after Moyes but he already has Barca playing a dominating game and introduced major tactical changes. So while we talk of quality, let’s be honest with ourselves. How many truly believe,Moyes could have taken over this current Barcelona side and still,be unbeaten in all competitions right now? Simply,do you see Moyes taking over Barca or Madrid and succeeding? And that to me should be the benchmark before you hire.

    • @Jay Wire: Superb post Jay Wire. I think you may have scooped “Post of the Day” with that one.
      Can you imagine Martino taking over at Barca then proclaiming it may take him two years to “get it right”? Or Mourinho going to Inter and saying the same? They’d be laughed out of town, or more likely they would never have been hired in the first place.
      When you manage Manchester United you have to expect being under the microscope, to be scrutinized and criticised. Hell, even Sir Matt, on his second stint in charge was not exempt from public criticism and scorn.
      You should not get a job like managing United unless you have shown yourself to be one of the best. You don’t come to United and hope to prove yourself. You prove yourself somewhere else and then get the job. Moyes has certainly not proved himself to be one of the best whilst at Everton, or Preston.
      Begs the question, why did he get the job in the first place?
      Moyes has no legitimate excuses for not delivering this season. None at all.
      I say again, excellent post sir.

      • Really? Where did Sexton, Atkinson and McGuinness prove themselves? What about Busby and O’Farrell or even Tommy Doc? Show me their unbelievable achievements pre-United.

        United have NEVER recruited ‘off the shelf’ managers. They recruit managers with a talent, potential and philosophy to develop teams while introducing youth through the ranks (although not all took the time to encourage youth during the 70′s and 80′s). Alex Ferguson had SOME proof but if Neil Lennon won the Europa League and the SPL for the the next two years no-one would consider him ‘the best’ and that’s really all SAF had done back in 86 even if it was with a club outside the top two.

        Moyes has an entirely legitimate reason for not delivering this season (if in fact he doesn’t) and that’s like Stephen says; replacing SAF is the toughest job in football and he’ll make good and bad decisions as did SAF himself. Fans need to be patient and trust Moyes will provide us with a similar era SAF gave us, if they can’t they’re living on a different planet and not someone I’d like to share a seat next to.

        SAF got years to get it right, Moyes has had months. When he’s had years to either 1. Fail or 2. Gloriously succeed – then it’s time to judge him and not until.

        • @Ian: Cheers Ian, you’ve actually made my point for me.
          Remind me again of the success that Sexton, Atkinson, McGuiness and Tommy Doc brought to United?
          O’Farrell lead Leicester to promotion before getting the United job. He did nothing for United.
          That leaves Sir Matt. His way of thinking about football, how it should be played and who should control the team was the thing that made him stand out from the rest. He was a ffotball man who was clearly ahead of his time, United recognised that and gave him the job. The rest is history. Moyes has shown nothing of the sort in his career pre United.
          All the other managers had no pedigree and it showed during their time in charge at United. They all failed.
          Fergie’s ability to break the old firm dominance in Scotland coupled with his success in Europe is what made him stand out. He showed a clear ability to win. Something that he continued at United.
          Moyes has shown no such pedigree and will no doubt go the same way as the other unsuccessfull managers you mentioned.
          SAF got years because he inheritted a team full of drinkers, not footballers. It took him years to clear out the dead wood. Moyes inheritted League champions, not piss heads. The idea that he should also get years to smash up a title winning squad and build his own little Everton is ridiculous. The two can’t be compaired, and anyone that does is clutching at straws.

        • Nonsense. You remind me of the so called proof they had of being the best which justifies your original comment that declares “You should not get a job like managing United unless you have shown yourself to be one of the best. You don’t come to United and hope to prove yourself. You prove yourself somewhere else and then get the job.”

          Our two greatest managers have been spotted and gone on to do exactly the opposite. Both got the United job THEN went on to prove themself.

          Moyes has shown nothing? Have you ever been to Finch Farm which Roberto Martinez is proudly giving guided tours of to everyone he invites to the club? Their Academy (which Moyes played a massive part in creating) has produced Rooney, Barkley and Rodwell who were all btw given their first team chance by Mr Moyes.

          You say…..the managers went on to fail.

          Well why don’t you give it a rest until Moyes has had the chance to ‘went on’? He hasn’t had that time yet and whether you like it or not it matters not he inherited a title winning team, he wasn’t brought in to continue SAFs era he was brought in to begin his own, he’s not a clone and since he stopped trying to be one his results have improved.

        • And btw, I mean ‘give it a rest’ as in give him a chance…..I’m not being rude to you in case you thought I was.

        • @Ian: Fergie HAD proved himself prior to getting the United job. Unless you don’t think breaking the old firm monopoly and beating Real Madrid in the Cup Winner Cup and then beating Hamburg in the Super Cup is success. In short he won a damn site more than Moyes ever has.
          As for the player Moyes has produced. Rooney, a freak in anyones eyes and would have made a break through to the first team even if Coko the Clown was manager. Rodwell, currently wasting away at City, can’t get a game he’s THAT good. And Barkley, a young lad you was stifled under Moyes and is getting a damn site more game time now that he’s gone.
          Three players in 11 years…quite the little conveyor belt, eh.
          Any United fan, myself included, is perfectly entitled to jusdge MOyes on his progress so far. Especially considering the backwards nature of our “progress” under him.
          His infatuation with all things Everton is a sign that he isn’t ready to make the big step up to managing the biggest club in the world. He has shown no interest in embracing the United philosophy, instead he seems intent on turning us into Everton. He would rather stamp a bit of Everton on United, rather than having United stamped on him.
          He lacks ambition, bravery and above all ability.

        • Sorry mate but that’s bollocks.

        • SAF had achieved more ‘wins’, agreed. But it wasn’t achieved in todays football climate.

          How many players has SAF nurtured into our first team over that 11yrs?

        • @Ian: “Bollocks”? Is that the best argument you can come up with? Disappointing, very disappointing. I’ll assume you’re out of your depth if that’s all you’ve got.
          Would have expected a bit more from you, Ian.

          Fergie won silverware, actual, tangible silverware at Aberdeen. The kind you can put in, say, a trophy cabinet. League title, European titles. real things. And he did it with an unfancied, below average team. Not sure what else you want from a manager.
          Incredibly weak argument.

          Fergie’s record on kids into the frist team? Neville, Neville, Giggs, Scholes, Becks, Butt, Lee Martin, Lee Sharpe, MArk Robins, Clayton Blackmore, Keith Gillespie, off the top of my head.
          And at a club where buying top end players was also happening. Creating kids good enough to play in a team capable of winning title after title.

          You’re just so incapable of allowing someone else to have a different opinion to you. An opinion that is based in reality.
          Blind loyalty is no kind of loyalty. Its the kind of loyalty that will cheer a team into the lower reaches of top flight football. The kind of fan that will say it’s ok to not win anything. Its ok to not challenge for anything. Its ok to just be another avverage team.

          United should be about the very best of everything. The best football, the best manager, the best players.

          Still, cracking comeback though.

        • Yes I’m out of my depth.

          It is ok to win nothing and whatever that makes me in yours eyes is ok with me.

          Not one of those players listed was introduced in the last 11yrs either, so please show me SAFs conveyor belt of success during those same 11 Moyes years at Everton where he luckily got given a finished product who required no coaching or direction in Wayne Rooney; obviously it’s Moyes fault Rodwell (a player btw who SAF very much admired/wanted) has been neglected/can’t make it in to City’s squad! and Barkley who again never even met Moyes so therefore Moyes cannot be praised for him either.

          People disagree with me a lot I’m more than used to it, you’re well entitled to your opinion but you back up your disdain for Moyes with one argument….he hasn’t won anything. Well, that’s my point. Why don’t you give him time to win something rather than write him off before he gets going? Or are you just laying the foundations to say ‘I told you so’ in 12-18months time?

          Blind loyalty btw is what you sign upto when you choose/inherit the team you support from the day you’re born…..although it seems the modern day fan can wait til he’s any old age before choosing to support the winning team or the team with the most money and then even unashamedly change loyalties in some cases. That’s not my generation mate so I refer back to my original comment where I say you’re talking bollocks, because imo you are. If United don’t win anything for a few years I’ll still be as Red as I’ve always been.

          Can you tell me a bit about yourself so I can paint a picture of who I’m conversing with? You know about me so it’s only fair I understand exactly who it is who’s drowning me.

        • @Ian: Really? Not one of those players were introduced during Fergie’s first eleven years? Are you sure?
          Do you want to go and check the squad list for the 1992/3 season? Or shall i do it for you?
          I think you’ll find that they were all listed as first team squad players during that season.
          Fergie joined United in what? 1986.
          So you’re saying that by 1997 NONE of Fergies (famous) Fledglings had no involvment?
          Someone needs to check their facts i think.
          From 1992 onwards, all those kids were involved in the first team in one way or another.
          Lee SHarpe, Gillespie, Giggs, Blackmore, Martin, Butt Gary Neville all made appearances during the 1992 season.
          Some as subs, some made debuts, some made quite afew appearances.
          Thats 6 years after Fergie joined.
          Within 10 years we’d essentially won the title with kids. Just ask Alan Hansen.
          They made more appearances season on season.
          Uniteds academy is a damn site better than Evertons and does not need Moyes interfering with what is already a production line of talent.
          Have you seen our u18′s and under 21′s?
          Chock full of talented players, without the need of Moyes’ medling.

        • I got to the second paragraph and thought I’d recommend a crash course on mathematics mate. 2013 – 11 = 2002. Why are you going back to 1992?

          I’ll continue to read the rest now…..hopefully it improves.

        • ….unfortunately it got worse so I’ll ignore you from now on.

        • @Ian: Ian, it’s not just a case of Moyes hasn’t won anything. That’s a far too simplistic argument.
          It’s everything about Moyes that is wrong for United. He lacks the X factor if you like.
          He is a dullard. He has no spark about him. He opens his mouth and mediocrity pours out. There is nothing in hos footballing career to date that makes me think he’s the right man for the job.
          He said himself that he has no intention of changing, he will simply carry on doing what he’s been doing at Everton and Preston. Does that not worry you? The fact he see’s no need to raise his game somewhwat. The fact he think that what’s good enough for Preston is good enoug for United? He built his career on playing unimaginative football, with little to no attack flair, no pazazz (if thas how you spell it!). He openly admits to putting no merit in playing entertaining football. A complete contrast to our greatest managers who believed that football should be entertaining, that people work hard all week to be entertained, not bored shitless watching a team playing to not get beat, playing with fear. Does that not concern you? Even a little?
          He has an appaling track record against the “big four”. And more importantly, he appears to have almost zero pulling power in the transfer market and appears to be trying to sign as many Everton players as possible. Because, apparently, they’re the only players he can attract. Players who are quite simply well below the level of player we should be signing.
          He’s a buffoon in front of the media. and i don’t care wht anyone says, it matters a great deal how you present yourself infront of the tv camera’s, in front of the media. Because if you get it wrong, every mistake or foolish thing you say will be taken and twisted and used against him.
          If he had come and embraced Uniteds history instead of pissing all over it, i’d have more time for him. But he thinks what he did at Everton will be good ebough. Not winning is now ok for United. Getting murdered by our neighbors is now ok, because thats what he did at Everton.
          He is in no way shape or form a United quality manager. and if he wasn’t hand picked by Fergie he would be nowhere near the United job. Nowhere near.

          (Tell you a little bit about myself? Are you serious? Is this Blind Date or something? :) )

        • SAF got us beat 5-1 and 6-1 by City, don’t they count because it’s SAF?

        • Every coach/manager has his own philosophy, strengths and weaknesses.

          Moyes knows amply what’s expected of a United team BUT if he decides to start from the back and get us organised defensively *then* gradually moves through the gears over his 6+ yrs and begins to improve his attacking flair (call it want you want) while bringing success then fair play to him he’s done well and done it his own way.

          If he doesn’t and it (his appointment) doesn’t work I’m sure he’ll part company and we’ll start all over again, but until we get to that point you have to give him the opportunity to improve on the areas you point to as his weaknesses etc.

          Calling him a buffoon is laughable mate, makes you look a bit stupid imo. SAF recommended a buffoon? A man managing a PL team a buffoon? I don’t think so mate.

        • @Ian: I’m glad you mentioned that.
          Fergie didn’t come out after those matches and say
          “Oh well, y’know what, maybe that will happen a few more times. Maybe that’s just how it’s going to be for while”, did he?
          He was furious.
          Moyes accepted that mauling like it was a normal thing.
          He should have been furious at the display, but, seeing as he sat there with his head in his hands for most of the match instead of making the substitutions we were crying out for.
          He was like a rabbit in the headlights.

        • I’ve done a bit of research those derby defeats and come up with not much regards how SAF dealt with them tbh, unfortunately.

          Nowhere can I confirm that he was indeed ‘furious’ after the 5-1 defeat in 89 and I can’t find any footage of a post-match interview either.

          What I have found though is Gary Pallister admitting SAF was ‘speechless’ and quoted him as saying United’s defence was ‘like climbing up a glass mountain’. Who’s to know what SAF might have said to a hungry media circus back then after it, eecially considering the immense pressure he was rapidly coming under back then?

          He might have been furious after the 6-1 defeat but he was already untouchable by that time so he could say/do/feel whatever he wanted w/o fear of any recrimination, Moyes certainly didn’t have that liberty after the 4-1.

          On both occassions though, United reacted well and went on a decent run of form. (The 6-1 especially), now Moyes has continued that trend.

          What I’m also bearing in mind and have tried to find an equivalent from 86-89 but with no success, is a team or teams with an entire team of ‘off-the-shelf, purchased players’. SAF wasn’t up against that back then. Even after three yrs in charge he was getting beaten by the likes of Palace, Derby and Norwich……after that season a few things went his way in an FA Cup run and the rest is history, but the football landscape was very very different then.

          SAFs 1st City Away = 3yrs into his reign = beaten 5-1
          Moyes’ 1st City Away = 3mnths into his reign = beaten 4-1

          Give the man a chance before you hang him out to dry, I’m sure you’ll be the first to hold your hands up if he’s successful and say ‘I was wrong’ because you’ll be chuffed United were successful, but why not put your disappointment of his hiring to one side and get behind him, just because he wasn’t your choice doesn’t mean he’s the wrong choice. Whoever your choice was MIGHT have took us to The Etihad and got beat 6-0….you just never know…..that’s what makes the game great :) isn’t it?

        • @Ian: Are you serious? You said Fergie didn’t produce any youth players in his first eleven years. Fergie joined in 1985. You do know that don’t you? 1985 + 11 years = 1996. Yes?
          Hence me going back to 1992. The year Fergie first blooded many of those kids i mentioned.
          I think i’m the one that should be ignoring you given your apparent lack of knowledge concerning United’s history.
          But, if facts disturb you that much, perhaps you should ignore me and carry on living in dreamland.
          Hells teeth man. Go read a book ffs.

        • This is why I’d like to know more about you.

        • @Ian: My bad. You did say his last eleven years.
          I was confused by your lack of logic.
          In 11 years at Everton Moyes produced an impressive 3 players that made the first team.
          Im bamboozled as to why you would want to compare Fergie’s LAST 11 years. When the logical comparison would be with Fergie’s FIRST 11 years.
          Starnge angle for an argument i must say, trying to distort comparisons for your own end.
          Well played.
          YOu fooled me with your anti logic. lol.

        • Far from it. If you re-read it it was simply saying that in the same years Moyes oversaw a new academy at Everton and introduced those three players to English football; SAF didn’t produce much more in that time of real top quality PL players. Dozens and dozens of Championship players yes, but top quality players, no. The point was that Moyes’ philosophy suits us, nothing more nothing less, and while he was doing what he was doing at Everton SAF didn’t really fair much better in the same footballing years despite having an already established Academy plus more scouts, a bigger scouting network and more finances……so actually it could be argued Moyes did better than SAF……but I won’t because he never won anything along the way…..but I digress.

        • @Ian: You’re ingnoring the fact that the United team at that time had much less of a need to produce from within. Especially considering his first batch of youngsters (Giggs, Becks, Neville, Scholes) were amongst the best players in the world by that point. Playing with other players who were also amongst the best in the world.
          But, i’m happy to agree to disagree with you on this one. I find your (anti) logic to be confusing and bordering on the non-sensical. How you can make the leap from Moyes creating three players in 11 years to that equating to him and his philosophy being good for United is beyond me, and many other reasonable Reds.
          You pin your hopes and dreams to Moyes and his dreary interpretation of the beautiful game and i’ll await the day we get a more suitable manager who can appreciate the finer aspects of the game and isn’t rooted in 1980′s football.
          I’ll look forward to having a more grounded debate next time round.
          Cheers Ian.

        • I’m not banging his drum mate I would prefer to see a more stylish manager in charge too but I’m prepared to support him and put faith in him that’s all.

        • @Ian: I support him in the sense that i support the team he manages. But i am finding it difficult to support some of his decisions so far.
          Time will tell.
          Let’s hope we can put a few past Cardiff on Sunday. That’ll be a step in the right direction.

    • @Jay Wire: Well said Jay.

      I could kiss you. (No homo)

      This is superb.

      And it’s the truth. For a club like United we should be doing better than settling for a tired backwards coach who knows nothing about modern day football.

  • @ Jaywire : You make a serious case for the Moyes “sceptics”. Whatever you say, the bottom line remains that it is far too early to tell how this is going to pan out. Obviously Moyes has management qualities which are quite obvious to those close to the game and in the know with many saying he is ideally suited to the job. Unfortunately that job is the biggest in football not only because of the club involved but also the circumstances – taking over from the most enduring and successful manager in history. This is no Barca or Real or Bayern where there is a consistent history of changes at the top. The expectations regarding on-going success at United are almost intolerable for a new man. There’s a whole generation of United fans who know nothing other than success at the highest level. Given these circumstances, to expect Moyes to throw caution to the wind and ring the changes all over the place as regards playing personnel is misplaced. Of course he’s going to be cautious and of course he is going to need time to grow into the job. He has to be fully conscious of United’s history of entertaining and attacking football but maybe that cannot be guaranteed in what are the formative months of a new managerial era. Moyes has to find his feet and to fully grow into the job. That isn’t going to be achieved in just a few months, it will take time. What, of course, is not factored in to all this is the patience of the fans. Will they give the new man some time to settle in and get things right in is own way and by doing so getting his United team to play the way they should do given the history? Seems that in some cases, perhaps many, they won’t.

  • I think you would have to be a pretty cold person to not have some sympathy with David Moyes. Yes he is being paid a very large salary, but taking over from a force of nature like Ferguson is an unenviable task. I am not Moyes fan, he certainly would not have been my choice to succeed the great man, but he is a decent human being with obvious values. His brand of football at Everton was pretty much long ball and he was always going t take time adapting to United. Focussing on his press confrences is unfair as at times he has looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights, but hopefully he will become more media savvy. The press are always looking to find fault and over analyse everything he says, Moyes is no Mourinho who openly courts media attention, the Scotsman does these out of necessity.
    He has no doubt made some monumental errors. Fellaini looks like a massive one at the moment, but in time he may turn into a useful addition, especially as Carrick is now injured. The Summers transfers mess was only partly down to him, but has to take some of the blame. His obsession with taking off forward players for defenders is not United at all and needs to learn this fast. He should have made more effort in keeping the existing coaching staff rather than bring in all of his ex colleagues. But he did an excellent job with Januzaj, as if we lost him like Pobga would be a tragedy. Ferguson sold him down the river with Rooney and again he has dealt with that hand grenade well. We are 9 games unbeaten and it looks like the players are playing for him. We are above Man City and just behind Chelsea, so hopefully things are on the up. He deserves time and lets hope he repays our patience.

  • Moyes does polarise supporters. He was hardly the glamour choice, not the sexy options like Mourinho and Klopp Mourinho and United were never a fit and Sir Bobby I would imagine used the term “over my dead body” if he name was mentioned. Fergie being Glaswegian I am sure was pushing for Moyes, he would fit nicely follow him and Matt.
    The main issues now are, Ok if Moyes were to leave who else Now is there to replace him? Klopp has signed a new deal, Mourniho is at Chelsea, Conte is Juve through and through, Pep is at Bayern… There are very little options. To keep stating what has he won is unfair. The big 4 have dominated English football to years, City and Chelsea have had unlimited funding. His Premier League finishes have been good if unspectacular. He managed to finish 4th and has rarely been out of the top 8. Let’s not forget, Arsenal haven’t won a pot in 8 seasons.
    I feel for Moyes, when Matt Busby left, he was still a spector at the club looming over Wilf McGuinness. Fergie is doing the same thing. He is at ever game, it is only natural for fans to say what Fergie would have done. He should have left the club and let Moyes do things his way. When he first came to Unites he seemed to not know what direction to turn. Stamp his own authority, but also show the previous manager great respect and look up to his legacy as a template too. He looked in awe of the place in the Summer, in the far East he looked incredibly uncomfortable. But he seems to growing in stature and the results are on the up.
    We need to understand the magnitude of the job he has taken on. There never has been a manager who engulfed a football club more Fergie he was of an embodiment of Manchester United and a very hard act to follow. This will take time and patience, not only from the fans, the players and the owners. He may fail, but I have no doubt of the mans integrity and hrad work and I hope he succeeds.

  • Moyes is a decent person with many qualities I’m sure. Being Scottish and a Glaswegian as well no doubt helped considerably with the cv. Fergie obviously had an admiration for him going back to the time he wanted Moyes as his assistant. His name was often brought up as a possible successor by many in the years prior to Fergie’s actual retirement. Many also dismissed this as a possibility because Moyes did not have a “proven track record of success at the highest level” which was a long standing requirement of the United board going back to the last regime. What’s more it was felt that Moyes did not have the personality to cope with such an immense job which required someone of considerable charisma. When you consider the personality and charisma of our two greatest managers, Busby and Ferguson and then the next best, the partially successful Docherty and Atkinson, one gets an idea of the personality needed to succeed at United.

    Whilst I believe the lack of success will be a millstone for Moyes until he first beats a top rival on their ground and then lifts a major trophy, together wit the fact that he’s less demonstrative than the aforementioned, these are still issues which can be overcome. I firmly believe that for Moyes to succeed at United he has to step up a few gears as a manager and as a person. He cannot simply continue his Everton modus operandi. There is a huge gulf between the two clubs in terms of just about everything including, most importantly, success. Unfortunately, the fact that Moyes was so quick to include so many of his old Everton pals in the staff at United plus the fixation on Fellaini and Baines, does not endear him to many who thought he needed to make a clean break from what was a comparatively mediocre period as manager of Everton – certainly in terms of success and even style. This question of being able to substantially adjust to a far bigger stage is the main concern. It is an immense task but not impossible.

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