Dec 04

Moyes’ past delivers a horrible present

Tag: Match Reports @ 10:24 pm

Rooney v Everton OT Dec 2013Drawing conclusions and delivering verdicts with December only four days old can be an extremely short-sighted, impulsive and irrational exercise but bar a minor miracle United surrendered their chances to retain their Premier League title tonight.

Even more worryingly, considering the way things have disconsolately panned out so far this season, it could be a long, long time, before we get the chance to challenge for the title again, for, quite plainly, United are simply not good enough. Not this season, not, perhaps, anymore, unless some drastic measures are taken to improve a squad that needs reinforcements with desperate urgency.

This might sound like a knee-jerk reaction, but is far from being so. That is a privilege that can be left to those who, last summer, belittled Moyes even before he took charge and labelled as clueless fans who had the audacity – how dare they! – to suggest that, perhaps, the squad that had lifted the title last May needed some tweaking, because the greatest manager British football has ever seen had papered over the cracks for too long.

Moyes laughs with Martinez Dec 2013 OTMoyes, undoubtedly, will have to answer many questions and is likely to come under extremely intense criticism, after a first defeat at home against Everton in 20 years.  Some of the criticism might be justified, some will surely be over the top and, strange though as it might sound, tonight has probably come as a relief for the United manager.

After months of fluctuating between the “not good at all” and the “marginally good, but not as good as they should be” United were exposed for what they’re: a side that, bar a drastic turnaround in form, will struggle to finish in the top six this season, let alone challenge for the title, despite having lifted the Premier League trophy last season.

What will hurt even more is the notion that, despite a spirited 15-minute spell in the second half, United deserved to lose tonight, for Everton arrived at Old Trafford showing the attacking intent and purpose teams are increasingly becoming willing to display at Old Trafford, as Southampton and West Brom had highlighted earlier this season.

Under Roberto Martinez the Toffees have become a better side than they were under Moyes, while United have seemingly regressed at an alarming fast pace, the light signalling their attacking intent flashing only seldom, while large parts of the game are spent toiling away, with an almost non-existent midfield trying to support unimaginative wingers.

Following Sunday’s draw at Spurs, Moyes deployed the same line-up, with the exception of Marouane Fellaini and Ryan Giggs replacing Tom Cleverley and Phil Jones, while Rafael returned to the starting XI, with Chris Smalling moving at centre-back alongside Nemanja Vidic, with Jonny Evans rested ahead of Saturday.

Both keepers were called into action in the first 15 minutes, with David De Gea palming Kevin Mirallas’ shot over the bar and former Red Tim Howard denying Wayne Rooney and Shinji Kagawa at the other end, before haplessly watching on as Rooney’s deflected shot hit the post on the half hour mark.

De Gea repelled Romelu Lukaku’s shot, before Danny Welbeck was whiskered away from converting Kagawa’s shot, which would have painted their contribution in a much more noble way, given that both the England international and the Japanese were utterly anonymous for large parts of the match.

United’s positive verve seemed to run out early in the second half as Fellaini – who had been excellent in the first 45 minutes – and Giggs were overrun by Everton’s midfield, before Moyes showed remarkable boldness by introducing Nani and Adnan Januzaj for Kagawa and Rafael, with the young Belgian testing Howard from long range.

The American was again at his best as he denied Patrice Evra from a corner, only for Welbeck to see his tap-in crashing against the bar, before Mirallas’ free-kick struck the post with De Gea beaten, as United looked to hang on for a draw – in itself, a damning indication of how the mighty have fallen – before Antonio Valencia fell asleep at the back post, allowing Brian Oviedo to slot home a famous winner for the visitors.

It was inevitable, as inevitable as the transition between a glorious past and an uncertain present. Both, however, hurt incredibly.

Dan


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Tags: Match Reports

45 Responses to “Moyes’ past delivers a horrible present”

  • There you go! We are now the average mid table team.

  • I laughed when Arsenal celebrated coming fourth last season. Little did I know that United would be lucky to finish fourth this season. I think Moyes is crap, Phil Nevile is inexperienced and Steve Round is really round. Ole would have performed better with this team. Martinez too.

  • Andrija Djuranovic

    @Dan,

    One of the best articles about Manchester United I have read in a long time. Congratulations mate, and keep up the good work!

    As I told to @Julian here, money talks. It always had, it always will. Look at average net spend of Manchester United, and compare it with other PL clubs. For example, net spend in the last five or six years. In that spending table, we lie at seventh or eighth place. That’s exactly where we find ourselves in the PL table. Coincidence? Don’t think so.

    Alex Ferguson was one of a kind. He was simply a genius of football management. Just like Mozart was genius of music, Einstein of science and so on. He was able to cover all the gaping, glaring holes in our squad simply by his presence and motivation techniques. And remember-his motivation skills were not instantaneous-he had 26 years to hone them. Fast forward to present-no more Fergie, no more fun. Or better, no more achievements above our real strength.

    Tonight, we were not beaten only by better team, but also by team of better players. Romelu Lukaku, Kevin Mirallas, James Mc Carthy, Phil Jagielka, Gareth Barry-every single one of them would have found his way into our tonight squad pretty easily. Three of these five players were recruited in August.

    What were WE doing in August? I’ll tell you: we were signing sponsorship deals, and we (we=club and management of the club) were lying fans right in the face, selling them stories that we were going to buy Cristiano Ronaldo, Gareth Bale and a string of world class players. That we were absolutely capable and willing to spend 70 million on one player. That we have the most money and that we’re going to win everything.

    Well, now these stories are exposed for what they are-plain lies and delusions. There is still a way to amend that, and that’s the way I mentioned at least three times in last two days here (sorry if I’m becoming boring)-spend in January, spend big, bring one or two really top class players, preferably in the midfield, to lift the team up. Someone who will outpass, outwit and outrun all Barrys, McCarthys or Fellainis and Cleverlys of this world without a hitch. Someone who will feed our strikers and turn them into goal machines they once were. Someone who will deliver a statement of intent, that we’re not slipping into mediocrity, but that past five months were only a short disease that’s now cured.

    I know that some of you guys have other solution-sacking Moyes. I don’t agree, but I respect your standpoint. This is why I do not agree: even if we sack him and bring new manager on, believe me, it won’t change a damn thing. Why? Because there is no more genius, so we have to stick to ordinary means-having better players. You can sack Moyes and bring, I don’t know, Pochetino or Pulis or Conte or whoever, the quality players will still be missing, and with them, the quality in our game.

    Therefore, it’s not our objective to finish 4th or 6th or anywhere now. Our only objective, of the club as an institution, and of us fans-is to get December over, wait for January and see, what the intentions of the Board of Manchester United and its owners are. To bring reinforcements, and go forward again, or to continue austere policies, and push us into Sounes’s Liverpool destiny. February first is coming fast, and by then we will all know the truth.

    • @Andrija Djuranovic: Bringing in a better manager would make a difference. A big difference.
      Football doesn’t work anymore the way Moyes understands it. He is a relic. A better manager could do good things with this current squad. No question.
      You don’t need to be a footballing genius to win things. You just need some balls and a bit of common sense. Two things that Moyes has none of.
      There you go. You said someone would disagree with you, i thought id be the first :-).

      • Andrija Djuranovic

        @BigRed:

        I wanted Mourinho over Moyes in May, no doubt about that. But the problem is the following: to win things, you need balls and common sense. Completely agree. But you also need better players than we have.

        Moyes is what I call a good manager. Not an absolute genius like Fergie, not a top class manager like Mourinho, Capello or Heynckes-but a good one. A good manager with average players.

        Let’s face it: De Gea, Persie and Rooney are only class acts we have in the team. Januzaj is world class TALENT-but he has a long way to go. Vidic, Giggs, Ferdinand and to some extent Carrick were class players, but they’re aging and thus past their prime.

        Everything else-mediocrity, rotated by mediocrity, substituted by more mediocrity. These players won the title-yes, they did. But do not forget: Carrick wasn’t injured last season, Persie wasn’t injured last season and the most important thing: there was The Genius running things from the bench.

        And another thing: Premier League was much worse last year than this. Every top ten team invested significantly in new players-guess who’s the only one who didn’t do that. You guessed right-Manchester United. And, as it in life it usually is so, for being stingy before, we’re paying the price with interest now. It hurts me a great deal as a lifelong United fan to say this, but-deservedly so.

        • @Andrija Djuranovic: You’re missing the point. Regardless of your own opinions of this squad of players, they were good enough last year to romp the title. Now, all of a sudden, in David Moyes’ hands they’ve turned into a gaggle over the hill has beens, in your opinion.
          I think a more logical explanation is that David Moyes is a manager that lacks anything like the ability to get the best out of these players.
          As has been said before, if these players were in the hands of another manager, they would not be performaing the way they are now. You think if Pep was manager we’d be playing like this? Or Klopp? Or Martinez, even?
          We’re as bad as we are for one reason. David Moyes.
          I wouldn’t want Mourinho anywhere near the United job. That said, he’s a damn site better manager than Moyes, though.

        • @Andrija Djuranovic: i think te players are to much dependent to fergie ,he was the master ,now the master is gone they feel lost,is their fault also..

        • @Andrija Djuranovic: Agree with much of what you say here. Moyes is certainly not covering himself in glory, and the jury’s out in my mind as to whether he can turn this around after the next 2 transfer windows. But the fact is that we have too many professionals on the pitch not putting in a good enough shift in the famous red shirt. Unfortunately, on top of this, many of these same players have limited ability at the best of times and were frequently criticised as not good enough/past it last year while Fergie was still in charge.

          I have said here many times before that the squad has not been adequately planned or evolved over the last few years and it would eventually come back to bite whoever took over the reigns. We’ve very few players in the prime age range of 25-30, quite a few promising youngsters, but the spine of the team is 30+. We can only speculate as to why something so predictable was allowed to happen over a period of several seasons.

          In the same period, with the exception of RvP and the essential goalkeeping replacement (both world class), we’ve largely recruited players who are not good enough to walk into any top team’s 1st XI (but still spent significant money doing so). Meanwhile we let a future top level CM go to bring another out of retirement. Hardly building for continued success.

          The biggest criticism that can be levelled at Moyes – until he’s proven he can build his own successful team, or not – is that he has not been able to paper over the cracks (caverns) as well as his predecessor.

  • When you’ve got a team that’s past its natural shelf life and a manager who’s footballing philosophy evolves from the 1970′s, does anyone seriously expect any different to what’s happening now?.We might be champions in name, but that’s where it ends.Woodentop stated this squad only needed minor tinkering pre season!.Is he having a fuckin laugh.A major overall is required Wright through this club, from top to bottom if we want to progress in the future.Im not holding my breath though over radical change.This club has reeked of complacency for some time now and the chickens are coming home to roost. Our league position doesn’t lie.We’re just a average mid table team now, just a sad fact of life.Without a management team that are forward thinking in their outlook or players who are up to the standard of playing for mufc, expect the next few years to be of the standard we’re seeing now.

    • @THE RED BARON: Hear, hear! and lets not forget, Moyes himself also said in the summer that he’d be happy to start the season with the same squad as least season, he thought they were THAT good.
      They were when he first got here, now he’s broken them with football from the dark ages.
      Hope you include Moyes in this major over haul you speak off, Red Baron.
      He can’t be allowed to shape our future, please!

      • @BigRed: I would include moyes and all his lackeys in the overall.Over the years we’ve high standards. We may not of been successful all the time in our ambitions, but we would never let things drop to an unacceptable standard.Why is bog standard or worse suddenly acceptable to the powers that be?.If Woodward and co think just closing their eyes and hoping everything will be all well and good at the end of the season, then they’re up their with the fairies.This is not a transition, it’s just turning into a shambles with moyes leading the way. Sad fact is, I think Woodward, Charlton, ferguson etc are scared of losing face over moyes’s appointment, so I can still see them singing from the same sheet saying he’s the Wright man for the job, when plainly he’s not, while at the same time convincing the glazers that everything is all hunky dory and it’s just a hiccup we’re experiencing.Talk about being in self denial! .

      • The_Philosopher

        @BigRed: Hear hear!!!

        David Moyes needs to be the first one targeted in the overhaul. . .

  • Thought De Gea was our man of the match tonight.
    Says it all really.
    At home too.
    We’re going backwards, development wise.
    Should not take a top flight manager this long to get to grip with his squad.
    Shambolic.

  • Check this out before we go quoting net spend on players as an excuse. The team sitting at the top of the league have spent much less than us and our figures are flattered by the sale of Christiano. So have Everton for Cripes sake!

    http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/premier-league/transferentwicklung/wettbewerb_GB1.html

    I think Ferguson left Moyes with a really poor squad. Not the mark of a great manager IMO – he knew he was leaving and left a crock.

    Laugh at Wenger as much as you want. What has he won in the lat seven years? The Emirates Stadium – which has set his team up financially for the next decade. Would I take Arsenal’s squad over ours? Every f*cking day of the week. Glass ankles Persie wouldn’t get back into that team the way Giroud’s playing and they still have Walcott, Podolski, Oxlade-Chamberlain and Diaby to come back

    As for Moyes, I agree with most here, he’s building ‘Everton with chrome’ at this great club and there’s only one way to go with him, mid-table mediocrity.

    • @RedThru: Arsenal are very average in GK and defense, with only one decent striker. Their fantastic Europe-Top-3 midfield is literally lifting Arsenal to a title-challenger.

      Recall, they have NOT played City, Everton, or Chelsea, and lost to us :)

      They still need to show that they can actually beat good teams, otherwise, it will be season 9 without a trophy.

      • @Opti:

        Arsenal weak in defence? They’ve kept 5 clean sheets in the past 6 league games, with the exception being the one they lost to United!

  • What a sad,inept and attrocious display by United.Its ironic that Everton FC are actually now better than us after Moyes came over.This wasn’t how the script was supposed to go.Moyes needs to come up with some fresh ideas.he is still hopelessly addicted to SAF’s philosophies,which are not only outdated,but also ineffective by now.I believe he is afraid to try something new because he knows he is already in the hotseat as it is.This 4-4-2 crap has to go.Its not working anymore.If the club are going to stick with Moyes,he has to be allowd to build his own team,but first,he has to sell like mad.Some of our players are a waste of time.Fellaini is a flop,and I was one of his biggest fans.Valencia,Nani,Young,Anderson,Cleverley and Wellbeck must go.If Moyes is so dead set on raiding his former club,he should focus on bringing in Ross Barkley and James McCarthy,instead of Baines.These two were awesome!Europa league it is next year gents.The glory days are now officially behind us.

  • I really don’t understand why some persons here are blaming SAF for Moyes’ failings in the midfield department. SAF earmarked Strootman but Moyes disregarded that and went for Fellaini after having the entire summer to do a proper assessment of the team. SAF talked about continuity but Moyes disregarded that also.
    Moyes should better come to terms with his management style cus this team I see playing does not believe in David Moyes.

  • This has to be the final straw. The result against Everton brings up far too many stark issues

    - For 11 years with Everton, Moyes never won away against any of the big clubs. Martinez has done that in just half a season. Moyes 0-46, Martinez 1-1.

    - For all those who keep saying ‘oh Fergie papered over the cracks’ or ‘club-in-transition’ etc, Martinez, Pellegrini, Mourinho, Pochettino have all taken over just this year and they’re ALL doing remarkably well. The United squad is more or less the same as I’ve always been saying. Moyes can’t find a way to lead them, to motivate them…nor does he have a footballing philosophy or tactical approach of his own.

    - Here’s the kicker. We lost to Everton. The loss is symbolic of so many things I don’t know where to begin.

    — Martinez is doing with Everton what Moyes could not do for 11 years
    — Martinez got some great loan signings and changed the way Everton play (for the better as we can see)
    — As evidenced yesterday, Everton retain and circulate possession far better than United which has more to do with the system than the players.
    — With this loss, our chances of getting into the top 4 are in serious danger..and this difference between being in the top 4 by december…and actually being 9th by then…12 off the top, 12 off the bottom…is too large to say its because of the players or gaps in the team. It has more to do with Moyes’ limitations and his lack of preparedness (inexcusable for someone who has 11 years in the PL) for a United season.

    It needs to be said again and again and everywhere. If you really look into it, Moyes did not inherit any big challenge or insurmountable task. Filling Fergie’s boots is not AS huge many make it out to be. In fact, with the setup he left behind, any other manager would have take it by the scruff of its neck and dragged it into another title run. Tell the squad to do it For Fergie…Without Fergie…remind them all season…

    Moyes makes this seem so difficult and you know, the chap really is out of his depth and stuck in a bad situation. Im beginning to blame Fergie a bit because Moyes is beginning to look like one of Fergie’s bad signings.

    Moyes cannot sign any great players in January (maybe Herrera) simply because no world-class player would really want to play for him. There are some realistic, cheaper options, but then Moyes is not the sort of manager capable of turning a prancing Cristiano into a ballon d’or recipient. Then, Moyes is currently not able to get the best out of our players, and that maybe because he has achieved the least among them as a player & manager. How will he impose his crap tactics on players who have already won UCL, PL, FA etc…and are already aware of what it takes to win. It seemed doomed from the start.

    Moyes should go to Martinez and take notes. 11 years goddamit, and you take charge of the biggest club in the land…and then you lose to your OLD club (the one that only NEVER won) at home!!! How much more evidence would you need to see that you’re managerial crap, Moyes?

    Glorified care-taker manager. Should resign in shame.

    • @RedAF:
      dude..i think you’ve just mad..simply mad. the everton win at old trafford it’s no solely based on martinez’s genius. and i dont have time to explain it to you.
      moyes did extremely good job at everton. whn he’s incharge.. there’re lot of good players come under him, rooney ross barkley baines howard phil jagielka. your comment is just one sided..and pure angry. if you are a true man u..we have to wait and see and stop whinning.
      us only can comments like we know everything..but the fact is you’ve just know shiit!

      • The_Philosopher

        @bro_red17: Wait for what?

        For more rubbish safety first football. Moyes hasn’t got a clue about world class football.

        Moyes is taking us nowhere fast.

        Waiting means we will only get worse.

        The best we can expect under Moyes is average. And thats average after spending lots of money. We might be decent under Moyes but never top 5 in the world (if we’re even in the top 10)

        David Moyes is average. There is nothing to wait for because this is as good as it gets with Moyes.

        David Moyes will never win 3 or 4 titles in a row like Ferguson did.

        David Moyes will never be able to consistently beat the very best in the game.

        Man City? Chelsea? Real? Barca? Bayern?

        Forget it!!!

        So tell me, what are we waiting for?

        Waiting to settle into mediocrety?

      • @bro_red17: Moyes did NOT do “an extremely good job at Everton”. He did an average job. A decidedly average job.
        As has been mentioned by RedAF and others, in 11 years at Everton Moyes never once won at a top four ground. Martinez has at only his second attempt. IN short, it’s taken Martinez a couple of months to do what Moyes couldn’t do in 11 years.
        Why?, i hear you ask..well, put simply it’s because Martinez understands the modern game, Moyes doesn’t. Martinez is a brave manager. Moyes isn’t.
        All we need to know is that Everton, without Moyes, are a better side. United, with Moyes, have deteriorated.
        The only place Moyes is taking United is onto a slippery slope of shitness.

        • @BigRed:
          that’s is that makes man utd diffrent from other club..we stick to our phillosphy..we dont build this empire in one night. what happens if back then when the first time alex ferguson take charges of man utd we kept losing and the board decided to sack him..and we are not like chealsea or man city has no shame..try to buy trophy with always changing manager, buy famous player etc. we build our squad not with a panic way of managment. give him time. cos if sack moyes now than we are just like the rest. look at wenger now..fans were booed him last season and look now. you want to be like em??have no shame.
          i know there’s something wrong in the management.but fired moyes and buying the lot of foreign players re not the solution..we have tradition. besides winning we also have tradition to have faith with the manager. tradition to have almost 60% infield player from GBR i know the last one is silly but for me the last one also what makes us diffrnt from the rest of england football club now days.

          buy rushing the progress england wont have new good players. we wont have the era of gigs, beckham, schols, if we rush thing back then.

      • @bro_red17: You don’t need to tell me what it is that makes United better than everyone else.
        Tell it to David Moyes.
        We don’t need to build an empire, it’s already been built. In case you haven’t noticed, Moyes is dismantling that empire and building something ugly and doomed to failure. Moyes is pissing all over our history and the things that make us a cut above everyone else.
        He’s turning us into a small time, mid table club with small time, mid table expectations.
        And i’m not advocating sacking Moyes and buying an army of expensive foreign players. Where did you get that impression?
        I wouldn’t lose any sleep if Moyes was sacked today. As i’ve said, this squad is not half as bad as some people make out, and in the hands of a better manager, would be doing just fine.
        We’ve got a handful of excellent youngsters teetering on the edges of the fist team. If Moyes had any faith in youth, he’d be using them, like all the great managers in our history, but instead they’re just being sidelined and ignored.
        IF we could add one world class player to our ranks, in the right area we’d be sorted. Throw in some more of the kids, get them ready. This season is done, we’re going nowhere. Spend the rest of the season blooding more youngsters and getting ready for next season.
        But Moyes won’t do any of those things. Because he is incapable of adapting.
        He’ll keep turning to his Everton days hoping he’ll find an answer, but in reality he’ll only conitinue to make things worse.
        Also, Fergie got time becasue he inherited a team that hadn’t won the league for 26 years. Moyes inherited a team that won the league last year. You do understand the difference don’t you? Completely different circumstances that connot be compared. David Moyes has essentially broken a championship winning team in the space of 5 months and tuned us into a team that can’t pass, create, defend or score. The current league champions, and he can’t get them to do any of those basic things.
        Sack him, sack him sooner rather than later. Please.

    • The_Philosopher

      @RedAF: I’m behind you 100% RedAF.

      David Moyes has been absolutely awful all season.

      He was crap in pre-season.

      And he is crap now.

      I can not wait for the day he leaves.

  • Being a big Ferguson critic,I still have to be accurate about what to blame him for. I blame him for appointing Moyes. That was a fatal mistake and a manager of his experience and calibre at the very least should have elected the right candidate. He has faced almost all the very best coaches of the 21st century and some of the best from the previous one. Lippi,Capello,Cryuff,Hiddink,Del Bosque,Wenger,Guardiola,Ancelloti,Mourinho,Scolari amongst others. Mourinho doesn’t have that track record. In fact most of them don’t. Of all these coaches,two have given him the hardest time. Guardiola and Mourinho. But in all his experience you then wonder how he came to the conclusion that Moyes should be the right candidate. I mean really? It’s like a race driver who has driven the very best cars,the Porsches,the Ferraris the McClarens,Lamboghinis recommending to his aspiring son,tasked with continuing the legacy,to take the Volvo as his new racing car. It makes very little good faith sense. You begin to wonder whether the conspiracy theorists could be right. Maybe he is maliciously protecting his legacy to amplify it’s worth. I don’t know. But surely he can’t be this dumb.

    But what I don’t blame Ferguson for,is the progress in terms of squad. Yes it’s his fault he didn’t invest in midfield. But that was during his era. Moyes in all honesty probably knew of his appointment back in March latest. He knew the squad made available to him beforehand. He knew there was a definite need to invest in midfield and even said so in his first official week back in July. Ferguson had been chasing Fabregas even before the season ended. The scouting team had been tracking Thiago Alcantara for three years and advised Moyes that it was time to get him. De Rossi was available and it was even made clear by Roma. Strootman is another player. A whole host of players were available. Moyes and Woodward take equal blame for messing what should have been a very simple transfer window. So Moyes and not Ferguson is to blame for the lack of quality in midfield. Not even the Glazers. All facts seem to point to the simple fact that money was made available. Also a whole bunch of midfielders of high quality were available for sub-30 figures but we only have Fellaini to show for it. De Rossi,Strootman,Gustavo,Boateng,Thiago would all have been significant improvements to Cleverely,Giggs and Anderson and Jones too. All of them were cheaper than Fellaini and we had a very good to excellent chance of acquiring them

    • The_Philosopher

      @Jay Wire: David Moyes is not United quality and therefore his presence at thi sclub puts a lid on how high we can climb in world football.

      He needs to be the first person to go.

      If we were to sack Moyes and could get Michael Laudrup in and keep the squad we’ve got I would take that deal before selling Anderson and Young and buying Fabregas or any other world class player.

      There is no use buying better players and keeping a crap manager.

      Change has to start from the top.

      David Moyes out!!!

    • @Jay Wire: The most worrying point about transfers is, If all the names you mentioned above wer available in january, How many would want to join asinking ship with ccaptain moyes at the helm?.With moyes’s stale and unflexable ideas he’s severely limiting our options in the transfer market.Seems quite obvious at this current rate we’re heading for a Liverpool scenario before brenda took over.The other point is, I can’t believe the glazers are going to be blind to what’s unfolding at the moment, so will they have faith to trust him in the transfer market after the fellaini debacle? They might decide to pull the purse strings in to see how moyes performs for the rest of the season before making a decision.Whatever happens, just doesn’t bode well for the rest of the season.

  • The_Philosopher

    I have to be honest I thought we actually played really well last night.

    And if one of the many missed chances we had went in it would have been a much different story.

    Fellaini had his best game in a United shirt last night and I have lots of hope for him.

    I think there are 2 reasons for last nights defeat.

    1) David Moyes is a rubbish manager and belongs in a museum.

    2) We were unlucky not to convert our chances.

    If we had converted our chances we would have won despite having the crappest manager in the world.

    And if we had a better manager we would have eventually scored and won despite all our missed chances.

    It would be very opportunistic of me to say “Moyes out!!” because, bad results aside, he is making some progress.

    I don’t like him though and I have no patience for his infinite averageness.

    Moyes Out!!!

  • Andrija Djuranovic

    @Big Red and others,

    No, with the players we have, I do not believe results would be better with another available manager at the bench. Take note-available managers. You are talking about Mourinho and Guardiola, but they are not available. If you want to talk about Moyes’ replacements, you have to be realistic.

    What could be changed is the brand of football-perhaps under another manager, like Klopp, Laudrup or Martinez, we would be playing more attacking football. But results-I think they would have been the same. Maybe we would be sixth and not ninth, but would it really make a difference?

    Take Klopp for instance, the best up and coming manager in the mix. Look at his team-in every department, bar goalkeeper and centre forward, he has by far better players than Moyes has. Hummels, Subotic, Schmelzer, Gundgogan, Bender, Reus, Blaszczykowski (not to mention Goetze) are class above their respective counterparts in United. He can play exciting football and get results-because he has the players to do so.

    Another thing-blaming Fergie is totally pointless, too. Nobody was stopping Woodward&co to strengthen our squad-it was their decision not to do so, and the decision was directly influenced (precisely ordered) by Glazers whose plan (I suspect) is to continue spending little so that they can take more cash out of the club when time comes.

    With the loss of Fergie we lost the aura of invincibility-and Moyes or anybody else is not to be blamed for that. We had a way to balance that by recruiting quality players and presenting new manager with the squad that, in terms of quality of players, can actually compete with other top teams. We didn’t do that-and now we’re reaping what we sow.

    • The_Philosopher

      @Andrija Djuranovic:If you don’t think that David Moyes is the problem then I can’t help you.

      With Moyes we’re in 9th spot but with a better manager (and the same squad) we would be in 6th?

      How can you say that and still think that Moyes is not the problem?

      So what you saying is, with a really good manager we might win the league next year but with Moyes 4th place is as good as it gets?

      Huh?????!!!??? :-? :-? :-? :-?

    • @Andrija Djuranovic: Im with the Philosopher on this one mate. If you don’t see Moyes as the weak link here, then you’re watching football in a way that i never want to see.
      Our problem is Moyes. Its that simple.
      Yes, our squad is not the deepest. Yes, one or two players could raise their game somewhat. But both those issues would be much less significant with a proper, knowledgable manager at the helm.
      There are several managers in the game today, young managers, with great potential and great knowledge, that put Moyes to shame.
      But, if you’re happy to give Moyes more time to dig us even deeper into a rut a crapness, then good luck to you. But the more time Moyes is given, the deeper the rut. And it will take the next manager considerable time to undo Moyes’ tampering.
      We’ll probably be stuck with him for two seasons anyway, but i’ll stick my neck on the line and say it will be the longest two years of any of our footballing lives.

      • @BigRed: It is very hard to disagree wit that. Moyes is an old school British manager get them fit, 2 banks of 4 attitude. We needed after SAF to go in a different direction, we were never going to have a Fergie mark 12. Fergie was a man motivator, his tactics were outdated but he was a force of nature. Moyes is a poor imposter, he cannot command the respect his predecessor did, simply he hasn’t the CV.
        Football is moving forward, the Glaswegian manager succeeding in the league is now archaic. Look at Martinez, Pochettino, Lambert, Coyle and even Clark. Football is now more tactical than ever, the getting them well organised cliché, ruling with an iron fist rubbish is lost on millionaire footballers. The players simply do not respect Moyes, he was nothing as a player and has won nothing as a manager. What is he going to teach RvP other than over training him?
        Also Moyes is too entrenched in his own philosophies, taking his entire coaching staff, not retaining any of the previous, or employing someone of European pedigree is astounding. Even Ferguson did with CQ and Mulensteen. The Summer was a disaster, everyone who knows anything could see our midfield was garbage. Fellaini isn’t a United player and never will be. He knew he had the job in May, the window shut in September, 4 months or so to find one decent player. We ended up on the last day of the window, buying a player from his old club £5m over his buyout clause, farcical.
        For me see how December goes, if we are in a similar position, move on bring in Hiddink, Heynckes until the end of the season, admit Moyes was an expensive mistake, he will cost us £60m, with the Fellaini fee and his pay out, but if we don’t what will he really cost us? We could be Liverpool mark 2.

  • Andrija Djuranovic

    “If you fight hard and just fail, people will still watch you on television, still turn up and buy shirts.There’s still a lot of affinity with the club and interest. The reality is that you can’t always win.
    Take Liverpool. They still sell an incredible number of shirts and have the second biggest shirt deal in the Premier League.They have one of the biggest technical partner deals – and they haven’t won the league since 1990.
    And you can put the last bit underlined and in capitals.”

    Statement by Ed Woodward, from this very morning. This is the problem ladies and gentlemen. Not Moyes, not Fergie, not Bobby Charlton. It’s the owners who do not care the slightest about the results-whose goal is just to generate more cash and take it out from the club. They even publicly admitted it this time-it’s there for everybody to see.

  • The more this season goes into decline, the more you’ve got to question ferguson’s decision to recommend moyes for the top job. The last time fergie spoke of retirement, It was widely reported that he was recommending otmar hitzfeld as the man to replace him.Someone with a proven track record of managing and being successful at the highest level. Then you’ve got sven saying he was offered the post upon fergie’s retirement.For some of his faults he has, he still had a proven track record in Sweden, Portugal and Italy.These are people who had success in their career.Move forward now to when he actually does retire and you’ve got names like pep, Maureen…etc being banded about.Same again, people with a proven track record.So why did ferguson’s opinion on who should suceed him dramatically change?.That’s anyone’s guess, just adds fuel to the fire about him wanting to safeguard his legacy. Seems completely far fetched, but stranger decisions have been made in football.

    • Andrija Djuranovic

      @THE RED BARON:

      The answer to that is very simple:

      1. It was not only Fergie’s decision or rather, it was his recommendation stemming from a prearranged framework and/or limits under which he was operating.

      2. Proven trophy winners like Mourinho would have costed much more. Moyes’ salary: 30 million for six years of service. Mourinho would have asked 30 million for three or even two years of service, as his yearly salary in Madrid was about 10-11 million. Moreover, Mourinho (or other proven top class manager) would have asked for at least 50-60 million to be spent on reinforcements. Moyes was happy with the scraps he got, as he was really not in position to raise his voice against it.

      Therefore, by recruiting Moyes, the owners have saved about 50 million. Now there’s your answer ;)

      • @Andrija Djuranovic: If you’re correct, what does it say about the ambitions and philosophy of a footballing giant and corporate monster as man utd?.That’s why I’ve always said that a lot fans felt completely betrayed by his undying loyalty to the glazer clan.Ferguson has become part of the establishment himself, which says a lot for me.

        • Andrija Djuranovic

          @THE RED BARON:

          When Glazers came, Fergie was presented with a single choice:

          1. Rebel, and be forced into retirement immediately.
          2. Continue to operate under Glazers and salvage what can be salvaged.

          If Fergie voiced his opinion against Glazers, we would have been in this exact situation 7-8 years ago. Fergie did he best to prolong our success on the pitch and win trophies even operating under severe financial constraints-and we can only be thankful to him for that.

          Fergie serves the club, not Glazers, and, as an insider, he knows they will be owners for a long time-so he opted to try to influence and improve things from inside.

      • @Andrija Djuranovic: If Fergie really worked for the club and not the Glazers, he would have sided with the fans, not the Glazers. Fergie’s attitudes towards fans protests says it all really. Telling United fans they should go and support Chelsea were not the words of a man with Uniteds best interests at heart.
        Fergie is protecting his own future. Got himself a tidy pension and a hefty payout off the Glazers for towing the line.
        Supporting and praising the Glazers so publicly since day one was not doing what was right for the club. He was doing what was right for him, and the Glazers. Appointing Moyes was not a decision based on what was best for United, but what was best for himself, and the Glazers.

  • My theory remains that part of the reason Moyes was appointed was that he would fit into the Glazernomics status quo. Firstly he would cost half what Mourinho or Guardiola would and secondly he would toe the line regarding not having unlimited resources to re-build the team. Moyes, having come from mediocre Everton, would not recognise a mediocre squad when he saw one or at least one that was in need of re-building. He would be happy to go along with what he’s got. The Glazers were used to Fergie driving along a team with significant deficiencies on a low net spend basis. They thought that Moyes would do the same thing – well sort of. Its all unravelling fairly quickly.

  • tonymontanna4united

    After months of fluctuating between the “not good at all” and the “marginally good, but not as good as they should be” United were exposed for what they’re: a side that, bar a drastic turnaround in form, will struggle to finish in the top six this season, let alone challenge for the title, despite having lifted the Premier League trophy last season.

    You see this is the thing. I’m not disagreeing for a second, that this team needs some fucking serious investment of the best part of probably £80m+, 6-7 players booted out, some young blood from our youth given their chances, and a serious change in the tactics and style of football we deploy.
    I’ve been saying as much for the past 3 odd years.
    But…. but I still don’t think it was asking too much for a new manager to come in, and even without purchasing a single player, get a team containing the likes of De Gea, Rafael, Vidic, Carrick, Rooney and RVP with the likes of Jones, Smalling, Januzaj, Zaha, Kagawa, Hernandez etc into a top 4 finish within the league.
    I mean as lacking as this team currently is, thats 4/5 top class players there in the likes of DDG, Rafael, Carrick, RVP and Rooney who has rediscovered his form (and fair play as I doubted him all summer and hold my hands up there), and awesome talent and potential in the likes of Jones, Januzaj, Kagawa and Hernandez.
    Even with just a bunch of rag and tag misfits on top of that, surely that core is good enough to get a top 4 finish?
    Imo anyway it probably is, even if it’s probably not good enough to do anything more.
    So whilst I’m not saying this is all down to Moyes as I mention on the other thread (fergie deserves a lot of the blame really), I really don’t think you can describe our drop down the table, as a side who now looks like a team who will indeed struggle to do anything other than challenge for a top 5/6 position, anything other than just poor management from Moyes.
    I mean with Everton’s squad Moyes managed to get them 6th for the last 2 years. Even with all our problems, we’re still a better side (or were) than Everton were in seasons past, so what does that say about the job he’s done with us that 6th now would probably be a decent achievement.

    • @tonymontanna4united: Good points. How much do you think European football is messing up Moyes standard procedures. He has never done a good job managing multiple competitions as Everton has flopped in europe at every opportunity.

      It’s possible that he is not able to foresee the rotation required to keep team performing at the level Fergie achieved.

      Perhaps, Moyes adventures in Europe may ironically cost us a Top 4 position… let’s see. I still think Moyes should be handed the chance, because Fergie picked him personally. Hopefully, Moyes will not be Fergies biggest blunder… :oops: :oops:

      • @Opti: Aside: it would be hilarious, utterly bone-breakingly funny, if United finish 7th but win the Champions League costing Liverpool their 4th place entry :D :D :D… that might be the biggest joke of the century if it happed :D

        Oh the humor we must live with nowadays… let’s just get into top 4 and call this year Reconstruction.

    • @tonymontanna4united:
      agree with your comment bro, we also need another youngster in striker position..i dont think we still count on welbeck. maybe we can give him one more season and see how he improve

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