Nov 16
On Premier League’s new media rules
The Telegraph ran this story about a new set of Premier League rules being passed, giving the press and media rights holders wider access to the managers and players.
The gist of the story was:
1. players can be interviewed immediately after a match [ie, players of winning teams only. If it ended in a draw players of both teams can be interviewed right on the pitch once the whistle blows]
2. managers are required to talk to ‘rights holders’ — which means Sky (to whom Fergie already talks to) and the BBC MotD (to whom he doesn’t and sends Phelan instead)
3. it is also mandatory for the manager or a senior member of the coaching staff to give a press conference.
Now I have no access to the actual literature of the rules that have been reportedly passed by the Premier League. So I cannot comment on whether this actually forces the manager into talking to the rights holders — or if he could send his deputy. [Note: I am talking about the post-match interviews to reporters and not the press conference in #3.]
But, since there seems to be a big deal made of this, let’s say we trust the Telegraph story and assume that the new rules will indeed force Ferguson’s hand. Now, this means it will usher in a new age of more transparency between press and the Premier League sides.
Now that’s all well and good. The problem however is it opens up players and managers to more vulnerability in saying things in the heat of the moment, and perhaps higher chances of saying stuff they would normally not say.
This is in light of everything that’s transpiring between the referees’ union and Ferguson — all because he expressed an opinion, albeit a rather harsh one, on referee fitness levels. So with increased media access, are the Premier League also taking steps to define rules on what kind of things a manager or player can or cannot say.
Let’s dispense with the obvious: one cannot eff, or cee, or go bollocks! at the reporter — “it’s a family show,” they would say. But how about defining, to everyone involved, what constitutes ‘acceptable’ and ‘unacceptable’ behaviour. [As an aside, if they are working on it, good luck to them.]
A simple case in point, why this is very tricky: Geoff Shreeves, I believe, asked Ferguson following the Chelsea defeat, “I don’t want to try and put words in your mouth, but did the referee cost you the match?”
I don’t know, Geoff, but to me you just shoved those words deep into his oesophagus. And I think, Fergie, with all the stuff going on around him, did a decent job chewing those words down, instead deciding to go for some sensible — albeit banal — phrasing.
There is increased press access — some would say, on the lines of how it’s done in North American sport — but if that means there are less shackles on the pressers to put as many crafty words as they can into managers’ and players’ mouths, will there be a relaxation (or a more defined structure to the rules) on the players’ / managers’ side to make this actually work?
If not, we’ll either see more outbursts — and hence, more recrimination from offended parties — or we’ll see players and managers trot out tired cliches, making this whole exercise rather pointless and adding little value.
Further reading — although a bit tangential to this — on United Rant regarding the refs’ union’s threat to sue Ferguson.
Related items from Red Rants:
- Red Rants and Fantasy Football – The 09/10 Fantasy Football League
- Manchester United did not break Premier League rules in Howard “deal”
- John Terry, AIG and Fergie’s Rant on Hackett
- Join 08/09 Red Rants Fantasy Football. Win Prizes!
- United Get the Job Done, Just
Tags: Opinions/Columns
November 16th, 2009 at 10:40
[...] same time let me point the other side of the coin that Red Ranter from Redrants.com has brought to our discussion table. The problem however is it opens up players and managers to more vulnerability in saying things in [...]
November 16th, 2009 at 10:52
It’s pretty concerning don’t you think? On the one hand the FA is keen to give its paymasters increased access to players and managers when emotions are running highest. It makes for great telly and the more drama, the better for Sky, BBC and ESPN. On the other the organisation apparently wants to clamp down on any criticism.
Would be interesting to see Wiley sue because Ferguson’s defence would have to be “truth” and there’s a much tighter definition in law (thank f*ck) than at the FA. Was Riley fit? We are told from the information leaked by Prospect to the press that Riley was 8th in terms of length run on the day.
Of the 22 players that started the game four were substituted with at least a quarter of the game remaining leaving just 18 to compete for Riley’s fitness award. There are two goalkeepers, leaving just 16 to compete. Then four central defenders, who always come out low on the distance run stats, leaving just 12. I’m betting two of the four Riley beat were Sunderland full-backs, who hardly moved all match. Was Riley fit? He bettered just two players on the day.
November 16th, 2009 at 10:57
I’d also add that another two Sunderland players were substitued in the 85th minute – 10 minutes before the match finished (more than 10%). I wonder if they were the missing two players Wiley actually beat? Hmmm..
November 16th, 2009 at 12:19
@unitedrant: I agree with with all the sentiments from you as well as RR. I mean ironically the news have broken when everyone is so busy in one the so called post match reaction still. If FA really wants to control these emotional break out (Fergie reaction and Rooney 12th Man) then they should avoid this because it may end up being messier than it has been. Or else, As i have been reading through that only winning team players will be interviewed then it may not. Still managers will definitely have some say and they will be tested if they are interviewed in typical media manner (like the Geoff Shreeves one) then there will be more Fergie like incidents.
) Wenger’s book on how he could have went about it. Just look at the way he has gone about in the Eduardo Ban Case he got through. But alas…..
I am with you in this as even I feel it will be interesting to see if referrers union goes Courts. I am really waiting for it. As that is not going to place where this BS FA proceedings are not going to held up (hopefully) and Fergie will have loads of time and points to put his case forward. There will lot of Video evidences that would be could be and should be used. Long time back when it all broke up I put my point that Fergie’s points are right but the way is wrong. I mean he could have taken the leaf out of (his old mate…
November 16th, 2009 at 12:25
They can force Fergie to go to the area where the BBC will interview, but they can’t force him to speak to them…
That said, I believe Fergie is really due a charm offensive. In case everyone hadn’t noticed, Carlo Ancelotti is doing his best to make Chelsea a bit more loveable (along with the Kenyon-replacement Gourlay). Slowly the negative press that surrounded Chelsea over the past 5 years is diminshing, and we’re rushing right in to fill the gap – all thanks to Sir Alex.
I understand the benefit of a seige mentality, but alot of what Fergie has done this season has been petty, poorly considered and I do believe has hurt us with refereeing decisions in subsequent matches. It seems to me that what Fergie does in the dressing room is his business, but the face he gives United shouldn’t be that of a sour old man. It doesn’t help.
November 16th, 2009 at 12:56
@Beachryan: I hope we are the most hated team in the country. It means we’re winning trophies.
November 16th, 2009 at 13:25
@Traverse: Absolutely… When people hate you that means you are doing something right… And when everyone hates you… that’s because you are the best…..
November 16th, 2009 at 13:30
The Premier League is becoming a joke…
No wonder with the type of “leaders” we have in the form of the FA, this League is going downhill and fast! 
November 16th, 2009 at 14:44
On another matter rumours are Chelsea are going ona spending spree in January just in case they lose their appeal and get hit with an 18 month ban.
Top of my Christmas list is:
Nilmar…I was really impressed watching him. He has an eye for goal, can dribble, has pace, and can play as a striker and a left winger. I think he would be a perfect fit for our team and would not be that expensive.
Rodwell..With Rio looking even more injury prone and Hargreaves yet to convince anyone he has fully recovered, Rodwell would kill two birds with one stone, acting as an understudy for Rio but also filling in if Fletcher gets injured.
A keeper…I think after the Brazil game everyone has realised Ben Foster is not the future and as it will take a new keeper time to settle and age is not on Edwin’s side, I think now is the time to buy rather than waiting for the World Cup.
Naturally with our finances we will buy one of those players at most. But I hope we buy someone!
November 16th, 2009 at 14:50
There’s not much benefit in being hated. It makes things more frustrating esp with referees.
November 16th, 2009 at 14:56
A lot of managers take time to weigh up their post match press conferences. It’s obvious a lot of them feel aggrieved at the end of football matches and the time off they get to go into the dressing room after a match is precious and helps them calm down and deliver cool-headed and dispassionate statements. but force the manager to talk to the press immediately and that right there is a recipe for disaster, there will be more back talk and tongue lashing than a pro-abortion rally gone awry.
November 16th, 2009 at 15:57
This has to be the wackyest thing of all time!!!
http://backporch.fanhouse.com/2009/11/13/hartfords-cart-wheeling-goalkeeper-propels-team-to-defeat/
Grog, maybe we should get one of these keepers!
November 16th, 2009 at 16:03
With these new rules are refeeree’s now available to be interviewed post match to explain their decisions?
And if they aren’t why the hell not?
November 16th, 2009 at 16:26
@ Colver
Dead right about the concerns for January – expect both City and Chelsea to spend and spend big. With Chelsea it’ll likely be our targets: young and already class. City are likely to be after different players from us, and to be honest I’m not worried about competing with them in the market as we’ll always win on players who we’d want to play for us (ie not mercenaries). What I think we need, in order or priority:
1. A goalkeeper: I’ve been a big part of the ‘Give Foster a chance’ charity effort, but he’s now had it. I don’t doubt that he’s a naturally very talented shot stopper, but that’s not good enough. Plus Adler/Neuer’s price is guaranteed to go up now as they will either be starting or on the bench for Germany. If the stories about Adler being a United fan are true, I believe it to be a no brainer.
2. A new ‘John O’Shea’: As in a player that can more or less play anywhere defensively, and isn’t crap on the ball. I completely agree that Jack Rodwell is future England material, seeing him at the U21 championship he really looked a cut above. Would love it, and figure we’ve got to have some good relations with Everton (Saha, Neville, Howard)
3. A winger/flair player: I think that Antonio Valencia is just fine as a traditional, put your head down and get crosses in kind of winger, but you can’t play with two of them. I still believe Giggs is no longer a useful option on that side, Nani is Nani and I’m not quite willing to trust Obertan yet. Perhaps Adam Lljajic is the answer. I guess he should arrive at United soon, so Fergie should have at least a couple weeks to determine if he’s needed.
4. A plan B striker: Macheda, Berbatov, Welbeck, Rooney, Owen. If it’s the 80th minute and we’re 2 down none of those players give you the ‘hoof it’ option, in fact we’d probably stick O’Shea up there. Again, maybe Diouf is the answer here, but I’ve not seen a thing and kind of figure he’s the next (legend) Manucho.
The good news is that I really think that’s it. Given how little Fergie splashed this summer, £35 million on, say, Adler, Rodwell and a reasonably young attacker should be feasible. And then our squad really would be as good as any in Europe, even if the first team isn’t.
November 16th, 2009 at 20:04
What a kettle of fish we have on the fire now. In one way I think it’s a good thing because it ends up becoming much more like North American post game events. You speak of the “rights holder”. Well in my view the rights holder are the viewers who in many cases pay extra money to be able to view these games on tv all over the the UK and the world. I want to see an on field interview from key players and I believe every manager should give a post game interview as well. But now comes the difficult problem. Football is the kind of sport where more can make a manager or coach pissed off about bad calls, dirty play and just downright incompetent refereeing than nearly any other sport I can think of. Not US football, hockey, baseball or basketball combined have the controversy one big and poorly reffed match in the Prem can have. Something about the sport and it’s lack of use of technology and it’s old school way of doing things has left it open to scrutiny and controversy and can make the nicest man or manager lose his temper and just go ballistic.
For the sake of better ratings and possibly a bigger market share by conforming to American media patterns and traditions, the FA is exposing it’s players but mostly it’s managers to the razor’s blade. For hot headed types like Fergie it means curtains, unless he can learn to control his temper. In legal police terminology I would call this a case of ENTRAPMENT. It’s a blatant setup for managers because whether they win or lose they are obligated to talk to the media but players on the losing side are spared. I would make a compromise proposal and just demand that the winning manager be forced to hold a press conference. No guarantees there that a guy like Fergie won’t go off on a player’s dirty play or a ref’s incompetence but chances are the win or draw will help temper his thoughts and outbursts. Silly but you almost get the feeling that sometimes these decisions look like they are being invented just to piss off Fergie or get under his skin. I know that isn’t the case but still, it seems he has more to lose in all this than any other manager I can think of. It’s also telling me that perhaps part of the blame is also Fergie’s. He needs to start respecting the establishment a little more than he has because regardless of whether he is right, he is not bigger than the game and there are people in place who have much more power to enforce the game than him. Fergie be warned, think before you speak and tread cautiously.
November 16th, 2009 at 20:10
The transfer rumour rubbish has begun in the papers and in forums. Buy so and so. Some people have never seen some of these players play at all and because the papers say we are in for Dzeko everyone starts making noise about it. How many have even seen more than 3 games being played by this player? These days it’s Krasic. How many times have we seen him in action? Let’s give it a break. It’s my opinion that the squad we have is sufficient to win everything but the tactics are not. So I just can’t see how any other big name player could come and make a difference. They’ll arrive and be immediately equipped with shackles just like everyone else and won’t make much of a difference. They will be played out of position in their 1st season as we figure out how to best use them. They will be subjected to moronic rotation and thus have no chance at consistency. I’m obviously in the minority with comments like these but I think I’m closer to reality. How many more talented potential stars should we acquire with the sole purpose of wasting their careers on the bench? I do agree that we need an addition to our first eleven setup. A replacement rather. A new coach to replace Phelan physically and replace Ferguson in the technical department. An assistant manager as the English call them. With a high technical capability, and the right tools to apply his techniques to our attacking philosophy. It’s actually the only thing that needs to be changed and we’ll all be shocked to see the team performing at a top level. This is where we need to be throwing in names, rather than players. My opinion.
November 16th, 2009 at 20:18
@ Grognard – Spot on. At least we can agree on something.
November 16th, 2009 at 20:41
@Beachryan: Chelsea will want to spend big because they may not be allowed to spend afterwards for quite a while. So they could put the transfer allowance for a couple of seasons together for this purpose. Problem with that is that January transfer periods are not ideal for getting the best stars as most teams are reluctant to let go of a player until the season is over. They will have to overpay to be able to get some. I see them getting David Villa however. He has few options as Madrid and Barca do not look like they are in the market for him, although that could change. And I don’t care what people say, I am convinced United cannot afford him. And I do not think they need him. Valencia could be up for a major fire sale as Villa, Silva and Vicente as well as Mata could all be sold. That is a very talented foursome. Other major teams that I feel will be in selling mode are Bayern Munich (they have Ribery and a number of unhappy and underperforming stars who could be dealt like Gomes Tymoschuk, Lahm, Rensing, Lell, Schweinsteiger etc), Ajax are making noise of selling top players, and players are always available from South America and Italy if the price is right. Another group of teams that will be willing to sell because their season’s will be over are Russian teams especially underperforming teams like CSKA who have Krasic, and Akinfeev. It will be a January like we have never seen before and it could end up being a big time for United but here is the thing. I expect them to do nothing. You heard me, nothing. They may but one player and let a few go like Nani but that is it. I can just see Fergie coming out around the January period and say something like he is very happy with his squad and he believes they are fine. We’ve seen it before. I hope to Hell I’m wrong but I have lost all confidence in this club’s ability to spend big money on players.
Although I am a big admirer of what Lyon do by not spending on big names, I must call myself a hypocrite when it comes to United. I want them to spend on players and the reason is that i do not particularly like the mix of players we have right now. On our books at present are at least half a dozen players that either do nothing for me or that I just don’t like. I want new blood and a new fresh look for our club. I am desperate for a top line goalkeeper, a world class RB and both a world class lMF/LW and attacking midfielder. Surprisingly, what I do not think we need is any more forwards. I am steadfast and adamant about my belief that with better service and a different tactical approach, the goals will come and come more prolifically from our forwards especially. But not with our present setup or squad.
If I was managing United and it was the beginning of 2010/11, here is the starters who I would still have starting on our team. Vidic, Evra, Fletcher, Rooney and Berbatov. That is only five players folks. EVDS would be gone, none of our RB’s are up to the task as far as I am concerned although I still like Wes Brown over there. Hargreaves if healthy would be out there but that is a big question mark right now. Rio needs to recover fully before I have faith that he will ever be the player he was and although I like Evans, he has yet to really light my fire. Giggs is great but only as a spot starter and sub, Scholes is gone like yesterday and Nani is plying his trade well in Italy or Spain. Valencia is a close call but if we were to get a player like Krasic, he would be a sub too, as would Anderson and Carrick. In fact, players I would sell would be Foster, Rio, Nani, Carrick and Welbeck. It might seem like a fire sale but trust me, I am showing a lot of restraint. Notice my list does not include the likes of Anderson. Scholes and EVDS I would expect to see retire.
Now who would I love to bring in. I am all for the theory of bringing in player between 20 and 23 like an Obertan who can quickly adapt and who are more mature and refined and are ready to make a statement. I actually am quite impressed with Obertan and he may make me think twice about buying a LW/LM. Still, I would buy either Neuer or Adler in goal. I would add Philip Lahm at RB and either Yoann Gourcuff or David Silva in my midfield as well as Milos Krasic on the RW/RM spot. And to add depth to my depleted midfield I would add Jack Rodwell and some young prospect or two. I think that would really change the look and the feel of the team. Now I am not an idiot (despite what some of you may think) and so this is just a fantasy concept on my part. I am fully aware that this is not going to happen and the chances are we would be very fortunate if we got just one of the players that I am asking for and we lost one or two of the ones I say must go. Still, I think the additions I have asked for are the kind of players who are young enough and dynamic enough to add creativity and class to our team and almost force Fergie to go back to playing what we all know and understand to be United style football. Now considering all the players I have mentioned and all the positions we need to improve at, if there is just one player I demand that we get (and I am willing to wait for him until summer) it’s either Neuer or Adler in goal. We need a world class goalkeeper to save us more often than not since we do not score at prolific rate anymore and because we are so defensive minded of late.
November 16th, 2009 at 20:42
@Jay wire: I think we probably agree on more things than you would want to admit mate. I just think the things we disagree on are often over magnified.
November 16th, 2009 at 20:45
@weezy: A bunch of immature American clown shoes on display .
I’d yellow card the lot of them.
November 16th, 2009 at 20:54
@Beachryan: I agree. I think Fergie’s actions and the the style of football we play has turned us into one of the more hated teams around as opposed tone of the most loved. I’m not just talking England here. United was never known as a brand, but as an English football team steeped in class, history, dignity and quality. Now we look like an old sad and angry team and it reflects our manager’s bad attitude towards the game. He is obsessed at this point in his career with his legacy and winning the Champions league one more time and beating Liverpool’s record of Prem titles. The good of the game means nothing to him and he couldn’t care less how ugly United look or play in order for him to ensure his legacy. It’s all rather sad and it kind of looks from here that he is being a whole lot selfish and greedy. And yet, he doesn’t seem to learn from his mistakes and correct them and he seems to be rebellious against a system that although far from perfect, is all we have.
I love the man but he has angered and frustrated me a lot lately and it has caused me to question whether he still is up for the work and whether he still has the best interests of Manchester United at heart? I know that sounds like blasphemy but he needs to be more committed to the team and it’s image even more so now because our present owners are doing their utmost to make the united brand even more despised than that of Chelsea. And I for one cannot stomach that. The club is just becoming too big, too greedy and too full of itself and it is forgetting it’s fans, and it’s legacy in the process. And frankly, if others out there do not agree with me on this, I could care less.
November 16th, 2009 at 21:03
@Footy4Eddy: The best way to make a case of the Prem League becoming a joke is watching what is becoming a mass exodus of it’s best players leaving for Spain because they want to play more entertaining football and football where their bodies are not so constantly battered and beaten. More an more foreign stars will leave the big clubs and more and more B quality foreign stars will replace them. Meanwhile the Spanish League and Italy will grow and become the go to destinations as no skill player wants to play in a league that is so physical and where players are not protected by the referees.
United also have to be doubly troubled because not only is the league less of a draw for foreign players. but United’s negative style of play, their rotation system, their owners stingy payout and Fergie’s impending retirement all stand out as reasons to not want to play here. United is a team on the decline or at least in transition and world class players think twice before they go to a team that looks to be a shadow of it’s former self. It doesn’t have to be like that if the owners would free up the 80 million from Ronaldo’s sale and if Fergie would wake the fuck up from the creepy fantasy he has been feeding us with. Play United style football, give your starters an extended run to help them build their form and start playing passionate attractive football again and despite the problems of the league, players will still want to come to United.
November 16th, 2009 at 22:15
It is a joke. I got FM2010 today and got handed a transfer budget of £70 million. I cannot for the life of me understand how a big club like ours just treats the sale of Ronaldo as a windfall and pockets the money rather than taking any steps to try and regain our crown as the world’s best team.
Fergie talked all summer and has started talking again about “high prices” and how he will only buy if he finds “value”.
It is pathetic. A club of our stature should take the approach “If a player can improve our team we will buy him”. Price should only come into consideration if it is extortionate.
I feel sure this reluctance to pay the United premium comes from the Glazers. And as long as we are not prepared to compete financially with other teams we will never win anything.
Im not saying we should blow money like Real and City. That has never been the United way. Our approach has always been to buy promising young players who have proven themselves at a lesser club and can step up to the next level at United.
Yes a good young player sets you back £15-20 million these days. But if that is the price of success so be it.
November 16th, 2009 at 22:57
@colver: Yep, IMO were only a couple of players short of having a finished product, and one with wonderful depth as well.
It seems inconceivable that for the sake of paying a little extra, we are are mired in a fog and seem helpless to find a way through it.
The funds are being held back, that I am now sure of!!
November 17th, 2009 at 4:40
@colver: I just want it on record that I Grognard am not secretly writing under the pseudonym of “colver”.
Man, that sounded a lot like me didn’t it? Fact is I agree with you mate 110%. I just found out that my Football Manager 10 just arrived at the post office today as I missed the delivery at home. I will go pick it up either tomorrow or Wednesday and I look forward to playing the game.
A suggestion for you. Go in to “Tools” and use the “Data Editor” to change the amount of money you are allocated for tranfers. I personally do not find this cheating. I am playing a game and i want to be able to run my team as I want and if that means I can turn United into Real Madrid, then so be it. I don’t do that but lets put it this way, after the Ronaldo sale I set up my team with 100 million to spend. 80 million from the Ronaldo sale and an added 20 million that they were already allocated for player transfers. As I see it, this is a computer game and in that world us fans should not have to put up with the Glazer’s. May they all get cancer. Enjoy the game mate. Lots of changes to the game I hear.
November 17th, 2009 at 6:40
@Grognard: I prefer to test myself even under constraints imposed by the board. I take midtable sides to glory. But I study nuances of the game where training methods, specific tactics are geared towards getting the best out of players. There is this ebook created for every launch of FM. This forum contains pdfs for each release.
That ebook contains a comprehensive detailing of FM tactics, and while it may not be perfect, it gives tremendous insight into the nuances of the game. The link to FM 2010 is here. You might need to give your email id and they’ll send you the download link. It’s free and worth it. Read it if you haven’t done so far. Here’s the link to the pdf for FM ‘10
Unfortunately I don’t have the time, otherwise I’ll risk getting laid off in no time.
November 17th, 2009 at 9:35
@Red Ranter: Yes but think, if you got laid off, all those extra hours could be devoted to FM10.
Oh yes, I forgot, there’s this little thing about making a living right? 
Thanks for the links. To be honest, the one thing I do not like about the game and never have is the training methods. It just bores me to death. Over the years i have had tremendous success doing what I do simply by having a true eye for tactics before and during a game as well as a good eye for talent and how to use them. O don’t always pick the big teams but I also don’t play the game for the challenge of taking a minnow to the top. I like taking teams I like to the top or keeping them on top my way. And hopefully this year’s game is outstanding because FIFA 10 is completely unplayable with horrific bugs that make the game a complete joke. I need my FM. Thank God I have no life.
November 17th, 2009 at 11:30
A few questions to those perhaps more learned than I:
1. Is Owen Hargreaves back in first team training?
2. Will Diouf be joining is immediately as his season is over?
3. Is there any truth to the buyout clause in Adler’s contract?
4. Is Danny Welbeck’s knee buggered?
And now two opnions:
1. Is the best option with Tosic to loan him out to another premier league team for the rest of the season?
2. Can we please give Rafael a go at RB now?
November 17th, 2009 at 12:08
@Beachryan: I would try and chnge your question regarding Tosic….
I would rather aske
“If its time to to give Tosic couple of months before taking any decision about him???”
See we have all but given up on NANI, Obertan is still for me some sort of impact sub (at least for now). But the most important thing is Tosic is really having an impressive time with for his country every time he plays. One thing is sure what ever I have read through this and other forums from Man UTD fans who follow reserve’s action they are pretty ok with his overall quality. The only problem is he is little small in his size but so is Obertan isn’t it?????
All I am saying is give him time for couple of months till January and its not difficult as we are already having LW as the problem area. So why not try him before scraping him!!!!!!
OMG… I might have been the first person on this blog to have written whole para about the lad… Poor lad……
November 17th, 2009 at 12:34
@ Onkar – I’ve watched a fair bit of the reserves and it’s not that easy to evaluate someone based on their performances there. I mean, big Dave Jones used to be absolutely immense for the reserves, but he was never United quality. On the other hand I’ve watched players from the first team playing for the reserves and not standing out. Real quality only shines when surrounded by other quality, I think.
That said Tosic has certainly been one of the 2 or 3 best performers for the reserves this season (others being Eikrem and King) and he plays in a position where we’ve really been lacking. He’s bigger than SWP and Lennon and grew up playing in Serbia ffs. He’s not some daisy who falls over all the time. He’s a tough, wiry lil fella.
And as others have mentioned, he can actually deliver good corners and free kicks. Something no one in our first XI can do.
Obviously Fergie sees more of him then we do, but it is an absolute mystery to me why he doesn’t get a chance. He can’t perform worse than Giggs against Chelsea, or Nani on a bad day.
November 17th, 2009 at 12:44
Nani loaned out.
Now that would satisfy all parties I think. Still an eye on him if he manages to turn out well, or confirmation of him not cut for Unied.
November 17th, 2009 at 12:55
@Beachryan: Thats precisely my point you took words from my mouth. I mean on one side of the we all are whining that we don’t have a LW and on the other side we are even trying to fit in Welback ffs but not giving the call up for a player who may (or may not) turn out to be the player we are just wanting at this point in time. As far as his physical attributes I am glad that you have put in the info because lot of people just discount him grossly as too small and light to play at premiership level.
I know that performances in reserve can never be the criteria for first team but the question will he do any worse than what our current LW are doing????
Then just throw lad into the mix at least after looking at his continual form at international level…..
I don’t why he is not tried so far………He really has become a mystery….. People talk about giving NANI a chance (a fair run in the team) and those same people readily discount this lad without even as many chances as NANI got… Strange.. Isn’t it?????
November 17th, 2009 at 12:59
@NicoQB: Only hitch in this is right now he still is bit of an enigma.. No one really knows what to expect from. But, if he turns out to be bad or not so great then his value will fall even further and he may not even command quoted 15mn.
Moreover, if he has a good time and we decide to bring him back then what??? Same united same tactics and fair chance of same old NANI. I am not against NANI, but the problem is in current environment at united he won’t flourish… It will in the best interest of both Player and Club…..
November 17th, 2009 at 13:11
@Jay wire: Quite well put.For a person who has followed United for a long time,the idea of our fans that Fergie is never wrong has remained consistent.It is part and percel of being a united fan.But on the other side,great as this manager is,he has killed more talent than he has brought up sometimes.
Correct me if am wrong but if Quiroz was not at united tha time ronaldo came,he would have suffered the same as Nani.Not with fans used to hustlers and crossers of the ball as opposed to skillful ones.Calling them inconsistent and all but far back as i can remember,Giggs was never a consistent player and does not possess the skill nani has,actually in his prime,i thought he was no where near pires.
Fergie has shown nani the same disrespect he showed Tevez,and it only hurts the club.He could afford to do it back in the day when we were the only financial muscle in the league but football has moved on and the faster he realises it the better.We are the only team in the top four or the upper league that can not string six passes together wit purpose,we can hardly beat a top team and that is a sign of decline.
November 17th, 2009 at 13:38
To be honest it baffles me what Fergie is doing on the wings. If there is any position where we can experiment it is on the wings.
My theory is that Fergie is so worried about our full backs that he prefers wingers like Park and Valencia who play it safe and track back. He is scared to play Nani because he is too cavalier in his approach for a conservative Fergie. Even Obertan a new arrival has jumped ahead of Nani in the pecking order, simply because he keeps possession and does not lose the ball.
Nani has been shackled and played inconsistently and for that reason he will never make it at Old Trafford.
The fact is that he is a good player. He gets into the Portuguese national team, a team renowned for its plethora of wingers. He just is not a good fit for the defensive system and style we employ these days.
November 17th, 2009 at 13:56
It makes sense to loan Nani out (only if we are bringing someone else better in) in January and then sell him after the world cup. If Portugal get there, and he plays, we may just get back what we paid for him!
November 17th, 2009 at 14:00
Also, this is pretty funny. Angel Di Maria, £35mil Man CITY target….
“Since I was 13 or 14 years old, I’ve been telling my mother and my father that my dream is to play some day for Manchester United.
“And I won’t stop till I get it.
“When I watch [Wayne] Rooney and all of them on TV, I can’t wait to play there at Old Trafford.
“When I was a little boy I watched Arsenal games as well, but Manchester United always dazzled me most.”
Hahaha. Fergie, sign him to a real big club!
Not for £35mil though…..
November 17th, 2009 at 14:05
Yeah I saw the quotes from Di Maria…interesting.
If only he hadn’t been halfway decent and on Sky in the recent CL, would have been more like £15-20m and probably worth a pop tbh.
November 17th, 2009 at 14:16
@Beachryan: I’ve been talking about him since the Olympics… he was brilliant there. Absolute class. He’s 21, and a left winger. City are threatening to activate his buyout clause which is £35mil, but it seems he has no interest in Citeh, and United think a deal can be done for around £12m, and cause he’s has only played in the Europa League he could be added to our Champs League squad.
November 17th, 2009 at 14:24
@Onkar: He could do with a change of air.
If he starts delivering again then we could take him back or we could command a decent price for his transfer.
If not, then it would be better than letting him go on with continuing underwhelming performances. We could give more playing time to Obertan/Tosic/Giggs.
November 17th, 2009 at 14:38
@Grognard: off topic.
Here’s something for you Grog:
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/protest-against-trumpets-at-world-cup-grows-1822004.html
November 17th, 2009 at 15:28
@ Donibrasco – We’re are on the exact same page. Most people find it taboo to criticise the manager and the players become easy scapegoats. Others just don’t think deeper and just copy and paste from others and from newspaper articles. It’s comforting to see other people willing to take a bird’s eye view and speak things as they are. It’s a rarity in football and especially at United.
November 17th, 2009 at 16:05
I am Anderson!
November 17th, 2009 at 16:27
How much would it cost to clone Collina and make him English? Cause if that guy was a Premier League ref these days, the League would be more enjoyable… The refs well and truly fuck it up!
November 17th, 2009 at 17:19
Here is the whole article link for Di Maria.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/2734019/Angel-Di-Maria-I-want-to-play-for-Man-Utd.html
Well from past experience following Fergie you can kiss this lad goodbye. The kid is a life long United supporter so that is the kiss of death. Fergie never goes for supporters of the team. Imagine a team with Kun Aguero, Rene Adler and Di Maria as well as Pavel Pogrebnyak? Not bad and the great thing is none of them would have to have their hair pulled to come here and most of all, something terrible would have to happen to them while with the club for them to want to ever leave. That’s just too easy for Fergie. He wants more of a challenge like going after Edin Dzeko as he comes out today and tells the media that he has no interest in UNited because as a kid his dream was always to play for AC Milan. A no brainer for Fergie, but I see Fergie sitting on his ass come transfer time any way while waiting for his wife to mend the holes in both his pockets.
November 17th, 2009 at 17:25
@Nafooy: FIFA is so scared to offend the hosts and are so conscious of political correctness they will do nothing about it. I have always felt a compromise situation would be best. Let the fans play the damned thing only during games involving South Africa. It gives the home team an advantage and God knows that miserable bunch of muppets needs all the advantages they can get. But as for all the other games that do not involve the hosts, the God damned contraption should be banned. It has no business in a Germany vs England match and should not play a role in teams underperforming because of it. Above all, the millions if not billions of fans world wide who are watching this on tv should not have to be subjected to this nonsense when the host nation is not involved. Personally speaking, I think that is fair. If all the host nation has to show the world of it’s culture is a noise maker that irritates and gives headaches, then I feel sorry for them indeed. They never even invented the thing. That noise maker has been part of North American sport since the early 60’s. A dozen or so going off once in a while during a game is one thing, but thousands going off all the time?
November 17th, 2009 at 17:39
@Beachryan: I can help you with three out of four mate. I have no idea about Welbeck’s knee but yes, Hargo has been training with the first team but also with the reserves. I’m sure his first action will be a few reserve matches to test the knee and his fitness out. All the news and reports I have read out of Germany confirm that indeed, Rene Adler does have a stipulation in his contract should one team, that being Man Utd come calling for his services. It states that if they do, that all that has to be done is an agreement on the fee and that Leverkusen would in no way hold him back or stall for time. Although, they still could in theory, refuse United’s offers on the basis that they are not high enough.
As for Diouf, everything I have heard is that United is anxious to get him over to OT as soon as possible and to get him playing with the reserves will he will stay and rot, like all the rest of them.
I do not have too much faith in many of our young players ever making the big step up to the main team. Not because they are not good, but because United demands top quality from all players all the time and because they don’t give a player a decent time to adapt and improve. Too much is always at stake.
To be honest, although I do not want this to happen personally, I think that if United had a few really poor seasons where they finished in the top ten but nowhere close to the top, they would be forced to bloody these players and give them all a good run out with the first team. But I do not see things ever getting that dire. I do see the Twins getting a better than fair shot as well as Pogba, King and Llajic. As for the rest, I’m not really sure. I like Cleverley, Gibson, Macheda and De Laet a lot but I’m not sure they have a long term future with United. And as for Welbeck, I think he has loads of talent but lacks the desire and the work ethic to ever really make it big. That and the fact that Fergie never plays him in his proper position has hurt his chances.
November 17th, 2009 at 17:41
Always good when madrid fails
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/2732825/Cris-isnt-Ron-the-money.html
November 17th, 2009 at 17:43
@NicoQB: Why loan him out. He clearly is not making the grade here and the club needs money from player sales in order to buy other players. Let the lad go and free him up from a bad experience and let him build a good career elsewhere rather than torment him like liverpool has Voronin and Chelsea had with Crespo and Shevchenko. Let the little man go to a team and be at peace. United and him will never gel and so take the money and let him run.
November 17th, 2009 at 17:50
@donibrasco: OK, this comparison of Nani to Ronaldo has to stop. I like Nani a lot but he hasn’t nor will he ever have 30% of the talent of Ronaldo. And Ronaldo at 17 had more skill, and ability in his little finger and would never have failed Quiroz or not. So many seem to dismiss Ronaldo and think that he was in Nani’s class when he first showed up here. They are wrong. He was almost world class at 17 and only youth and immaturity in his skills kept him from being that. Within a few years he had become a top 5 player and the rest is history. As good as I think Nani is, he is not in Ronaldo’s class nor has he ever been favorably compared to Ronaldo. So lets stop comparing the two as it is unfair to both players. Comparing Nani to Ronaldo is like comparing Ferrari (Ronaldo) to a Ford Fiesta (Nani). I mean really mate, lets stop building him up to a position he hasn’t earned and stop breaking down Ronaldo to a lower level that he wasn’t.
November 17th, 2009 at 17:55
@colver: He’s not worried about our fullbacks at all. It’s our central midfield that worries him and he is generally more afraid of giving up goals so naturally he puts emphasis on two central midfielders playing deep. This adds more responsibilities to the wingers and all he is doing is putting the ball and responsibility to create on their shoulders. It was fine when he had a younger Giggs and Ronaldo, but clearly now he is in a world of hurt.
Buying players like Di Maria, Krasic and allowing Obertan to develop properly would once again make Fergie look like a genius. You look confused and stupid when the players you count on to be creative, create nothing. And that is what has been happening this season. Our wingers have done very little and it has hurt the club’s standing as well as the performance and production of our strikers who count on quality service but who haven’t been getting much of it.
November 17th, 2009 at 18:02
@Traverse: City will never be a problem for us until they actually win something. The only players who will go there are the ones who just want money and have no ambition and the second tier stars who the big four don’t want. Di Maria will never go to City when he knows a number of truly great clubs especially United would be interested in him. In the transfer game, it’s still up to the player to agree to a move. City are waving their dollars around hoping that will literally buy them respect. It doesn’t work that way. Success and pedigree is the only respect great players acknowledge. And none of the current crop of signings at City are players that the big four or any other big club in Europe really wanted.
November 17th, 2009 at 18:03
@Footy4Eddy: My sympathies.
November 17th, 2009 at 18:36
@Grognard:
November 17th, 2009 at 19:20
@Footy4Eddy: Truthfully, I couldn’t choose over the bad news of the week. Which was worse, Enke dying or you being Anderson. It was a tossup.
November 17th, 2009 at 19:31
@ Grognard – I think there’s not much wrong with those trumpets or vuvuzelas as they call them here in South Africa. Nigeria bring a full percussion band consisting mainly of trumpets and trambones for every game. They make as much noise. It’s an African thing. Whether you think it’s moronic because of your OWN background is not really something FIFA should be obliged to look at. Africa is all about noise and dance in celebration. In Europe and the “West” generally they prefer a controlled and restrained mode of celebration. That’s Europe. In Africa it’s unrestrained and it’s noisy. But some of the tunes they make with those things are just catchy. But I can understand where you are coming from. Here in SA, the dominant sport is football and locally it’s almost completely supported by black South Africans and this is where these things are played. In rugby predominantly supported by white Africans the vuvuzela was banned. So it’s a thing of contrasting cultures more than anything else. Now the complex part is, the vuvuzela has been a huge part of South African football culture that it’s quite synonymous with the game. There’s no separation. When United came for the Vodacom Challenge, it was there. When City came it was there. Same with Spurs and Barca’s visits. Given that other hosts have been given room and opportunity to freely express their football culture it would be extremely difficult for FIFA to place restrictions on South Africa. The majority of the African continent is happy with the vuvuzela so that makes it even more tricky. I guess those irritated by it will just have to live with it, because I just can’t see FIFA stepping in. Especially with Sepp Blatter around,a staunch supporter of African football, and greatly loved on the continent.
November 17th, 2009 at 20:02
@Grognard: The compromise solution as reported by broadcasters was to place the mic’s in strategic locations so as to minimize the noise becoming an irritant to viewers. They said this after the confed cup that initially they weren’t prepared, but now they said they may be able to figure out a way to get that done.
November 17th, 2009 at 22:02
I honestly can’t figure out why Ronaldo and Nani can’t be compared. Noone is comparing Ronaldo of today with Nani. We’re are comparing Ronaldo in his 1st couple of seasons against Nani’s. Both arrived as wingers, from same league and country. Only difference is the surrounding circumstances. To say Ronaldo was close to world class when he arrived is a gross falsehood. He was very frustrating and inconsistent. Come on, he was described as an “empty bag of tricks” by the media. Quaresma was regarded as way better and how world class was he. He was still potential. Truthfully he possessed more skill than the more direct Nani but was similarly lightweight. My arguement is Nani’s productivity has been higher than early day Ronaldo’s. That should count for something especially given that the latter had it much much easier. Probably had it much easier than any footballer has ever had in football history.
November 17th, 2009 at 22:07
@NicoQB: haha, well put!!
November 17th, 2009 at 22:22
@Jay wire: I remember when norway recently played against South Africa, and watching african nations play. To me it lookes like great fun to be honest. Everybody in the whole stadium dance the entire game.
It creates a great atmosphere. I remember thinking i would love to be there!
Its a far cry from old trafford where you are threatened that you will be tossed out if you stand up too much! Actually, i think the kind of atmosphere they create in the “non-western” world is great. the kind “we” used to create before we all got spoiled and silent. At games now some people actually give you a look if you scream! But i take pride in being a vocal supporter som i dont really give a rats ass!!
November 17th, 2009 at 22:28
@Grognard: Haha, I thought Id say that today because 1) I am severly bored and 2) because my coach yesterday said I played like Anderson. Take it as you like, but he meant it in the way that I always wanted a high paced game and I saw space and thought of playing through balls more often that not. It annoyed me because, the winger in front of me is really, really quick! There was more than 40 yards of space for him to run free at if he had just run into space instead of demanding the ball at his feet. I thought of what comes regular to me, play him in behind the defense. He didnt follow, and this happend three times during practise. If he had just not been a lazy bastard he could have had three good opportunities to cross or score, but no. Didnt feel like running. While the opposition winger on my side always got played into space and was more dangerous. I managed to keep up with him though, read the game well, but its hard when the winger in front of you doesnt want to run into space or work back at all…
November 17th, 2009 at 22:35
I miss Ronaldo…
Not for the results, but because of the way we play. I miss that explosive speed on the counters, the bravery to take men on, to hit those Eddy-esque free-kick(
), the tricks and just the brilliant goals. Valencia seem good, Nani seem good, Park seem horrible, Obertan seem good. But none of them seem great! Ough, thy Ronny, would you come back to this magnificent place? Real Madrid are shite, and you dont like it there. Your career will ultimately end. Wanna come back? 
November 17th, 2009 at 23:04
@Jay wire: Personally I thought that while Ronaldo’s end product was often inconsistent, he displayed outrageous amount of skill.
Also in his first season or two, he was not an automatic starter, often came from the bench or so, yet managed good statistics.
I thought that he was very near world class already in his first season. His debut game was superb (created a penalty and caused all sorts of problems in 20 min or so).
So while I would agree that Ronaldo and Nani are (were) very similar at a point in time, but the sheer talent of one renders comparisons unfair.
November 17th, 2009 at 23:15
The difference between Nani and Ronaldo is a thing called confidence in your own ability. Nani had it in his first season, and did well. Lost it, now he is lost. Get your head sorted Nani!
November 17th, 2009 at 23:42
@Footy4Eddy: That too!
November 17th, 2009 at 23:50
The reason Fergie hasnt spent his transfer money yet is because he is waiting for next summer so he can buy Ronnie back cheaper…
November 17th, 2009 at 23:59
@Footy4Eddy: Dont tease me boy!
November 18th, 2009 at 0:03
Tuesday afternoon, planning to see 2012 for a long time. Friends wanting to come over for FIFA 10 or MW2, or just hanging out with my girls. Or just in case, just have a kick in the park down at the pitch. Practicing some more on my Ronaldo free-kicks… But what do I do? I fucking work on Molekyles and Science shit!
Im not gonna be a scientist, so what the fuck do I need this for? Its madness, absolute madness!!! Oh well, at least I know the shit. But its just so… unecessary! 
School can fuck Jeff Winters ass, and bitchslap Alan Wiley all the way up to the gym. Fucks sake, is this a waste of time…
If I seem annoyed, its because I am. School is fucking killing me! Havent had time to just relax since Thursday! And I call playing football for 4 hours relaxing, I do. Because where I come from, its not much else to do but football and girls. Im bored, trust me. Timewasting sucks, especially when it goes to how a Molekyl is shaped………
November 18th, 2009 at 0:06
@Dan: Im just so fucking bored mate, and watching the 7-1 game against Rome is what Im watching to not get too many numbers stocked in my head. Even though there were so many goals in that game you almost lose count…
I miss Ronny, I honestly do. I`ll say this, if Ronaldo was a United fan like Giggsy or Neville, maybe even like Patrice Evra, he would be the most respected and loved United player during the whole clubs time. I miss him, I really, really do… 
November 18th, 2009 at 0:34
@Jay wire: You just don’t get it mate. It does not sound good through a tv. It sounds like your livingroom just got attacked by a swarm of bees. After all is said and done, the World Cup is first and foremost a business and marketing it is vital to FIFA. If I and millions of others choose to turn off the games due to this noise or if we turn down the volume, it hurts all their marketing and advertisers. In the end the advertisers will get it banned. It’s a culturally moronic phenomenon because it shows that a group of people so suffer from ADD and the need to act like clowns that the game they are there to watch becomes secondary. Why not let them start there own circus where they can dance around and play the bloody contraption to their heart’s content. As far as football is concerned, we do not need it and the game has survived over a century without the need for that kind of a noise maker. In the end Sepp Blatter will cave in to the millions of dollars that could vacate the event due to this annoyance. Advertisers rule the roost mate, not fans.
November 18th, 2009 at 0:37
@Red Ranter: Pressure from advertisers will make it cease and desist totally. You just watch.
November 18th, 2009 at 0:39
@Jay wire: Because one is a world class God and the other is clearly not. While we’re at it lets compare Ben Foster to Peter Schmeichel and Danny Welbeck to Eric Cantona. You cannot compare a diamond to a lemon mate.
November 18th, 2009 at 0:40
@weezy: Different strokes for different folks mate. I bet you the vast majority agree with me. And you forget that this matters more for television revenue. On tv it is as annoying as Hell.
November 18th, 2009 at 0:45
@Footy4Eddy: To add to your game Eddy, I would also try working at playing at a slower more controlled pace. You are definitely going to need that when you go to Italy because Roma does not want the headless chicken style of Anderson to dictate the pace of the game. Remember, the pace is dictated by the manager and by the circumstances in the match, not because you decide to go 100 miles and hour while everybody else is going 30. Be flexible and you will end up being more dynamic and get noticed by more and more teams. I think of the Pit bull Edgar Davids and I think back at how he could go full speed at moments in a game and then go slow for other moments. It was great to watch. Anderson for me is not an attractive player to watch for a lot of reasons but his pace and running betray him because they take away from his vision and finesse.
November 18th, 2009 at 0:48
@NicoQB: I think his end product was frakken awesome, are you serious? 42 goals in a season and double figures in assists and he has no end product? SHEESH!
Some people cannot be pleased. I fail to think of anyone in world football with a better end product.
November 18th, 2009 at 0:50
@Footy4Eddy: He also does not have Ronaldo’s skill mate. Try as he does, he cannot master some of the things Ronaldo was able to do. Everything he does that Ronaldo could do he does at half pace. He is not even worth comparing. But still, that doesn’t mean I think he is a poor player. Far from it, he is a good player with no confidence. Ronaldo was a God with god like confidence. It will be a long time before we see his like playing regularly at OT again.
November 18th, 2009 at 0:51
@Footy4Eddy: I wish. But truthfully, the reason he hasn’t spent his money yet is that no team or country recognizes Monopoly money as real currency.
November 18th, 2009 at 0:51
@Grognard: Anderson
November 18th, 2009 at 0:55
@Footy4Eddy: Appreciate and respect your education mate. At your age you are too young to understand how all those things will come back to be of use to you later on in your life. Education is the most vital thing you can have. Your football career could be snuffed out with one injury and so then what will you do? With a solid education you will have to rely on your head as opposed to your feet. Don’t be another dumb jock that gambles all his future on that one athletic dream. Have a backup plan, a contingency plan. Get your education and damned well respect and honor it. It will save your bacon one day.
November 18th, 2009 at 0:56
@Footy4Eddy: RIQUELME
November 18th, 2009 at 0:59
@Grognard: Ive been told that many times mate, its just that for a defender I am kinda attacking minded. My vision betrays me at times because the others cant follow my thoughts. Lets say theres 60 square meters of open room for a fast striker to run onto, but instead of going for that he wants the ball played at his feet when he knows there is minimal movement around him and and two players on his back all the time. They are stronger than him, but not faster, which is why the logical play is to make him run onto a through ball so he can be one-on-one with the keeper. If he reads my mind, its a goal or a great scoring chance. If not, he complains to me why I gave the ball away. I can understand it if he is tired, but when he aint he should know where to run. Strikers mind-set is to score a goal, not to be a playmaker…
As for slowing the game down, something I definately must work on. I hate slow football. I dont like it. Fast, powerful, cheeky and direct. Thats how I want it. Thats how we usually play! But I have to get used to a more slower system now, which will do wonders for my play. Another dimension maybe?
At this instant I dont like it, as it bores me. If you have a chance to send a guy through on goal, why dont do it? My team may lose the ball, but we may also score a goal. Its usually a 50/50 chance, 70/30 if the striker understands what Im thinking becuse it usually is precise and hard. If I can claim an assist, then why not? 
I should actually be a box-to-box midfielder, its just that I like staying on the wings to whip in crosses… Oh well, full back and CDM fits me well!
November 18th, 2009 at 1:01
@Grognard: I have a backup plan. And its not within chemistry, believe me! Im either gonna be a psykologist, work within journalism or politics. Im quite good at school, but chemistry is SHIIIIIIIIITE!!!
November 18th, 2009 at 1:02
@Grognard: Harry Potter! 0_-
November 18th, 2009 at 3:00
Benitez has given Gillete and Hicks an easy out.
Sell Torres and he’ll quit. Sounds like a win-win for the Americans!!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article6919543.ece
November 18th, 2009 at 4:04
You think by Saturday we could reach #100 here.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Good Night.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:34
@Footy4Eddy: Just remember that in Italy the game is slower and there is not that much crossing into the box. It matters not what you like or want if your team and the other teams do not accommodate you. Like at United the name of the game is not the 50/50 through ball but 70/30 possession. Your coaches will love you for making smart moves, not vacating your zone so often with ill timed runs and above all, holding on to the ball by playing the safe pass more often than not. Play to there requirements and still your skills will come out because nobody else on your team will have those extra skills that you possess. Just pick the time and the place to use them. Sparingly and with purpose will get you on every scouts hit list before you know it.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:39
@Footy4Eddy: Just remember that if you go into a specific profession, it’s really important to know how to spell it mate. It’s “Psychologist”.
You’ve got a good heart and head on your shoulders and you have endured and shown strength and discipline during the hard times in your life. This will help you with anything you do. Just don’t let youthful immaturity and impulse blind you and seduce you towards other things less challenging. Ad stay away from politics mate. I was in it for too long and almost lost my soul. You have too much of a good heart and a good soul to work in that vipers arena. Nobody and nothing good comes out of politics. All you will learnt o do there is advance your personal agenda, lose your soul and stab everyone in the back. Certainly not you. From the little I know of you on here I think your enthusiasm and passion for football and for athletics would make you a good teacher in physical education. Not just because you are a good athlete but that you convey your love and passion for a sport so well. That’s what a good educator does.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:42
@Footy4Eddy: BATMAN
November 18th, 2009 at 5:43
@Redrich: I would love to see it happen and then I would look forward to the public lynching in downtown Scouserville of the two Yanks for destroying the Scouser fantasy.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:46
@Redrich: Goodnight Red. I come on here in the late evening hoping to find 50 or so posts and to spend some time replying to comments and there is nothing. Man I hate it when everybody vacates during an international week. This is a great time for all of us to discuss anything and everything and get to know each other a bit. But instead they are all off doing their thing. I’m so lonely
November 18th, 2009 at 6:06
I think that the new EPL rules will actually turn the media circus on its ahead and into a Serie A clone – so many interviews and SAF will get tired and just curse under his breath, sigh, rub his temples, and we will get plenty of exasperated gestures but few incriminating remarks.
November 18th, 2009 at 7:42
@Grognard: Im here…
November 18th, 2009 at 9:01
Chelsea must not sign aguero, that would be fucked up.
November 18th, 2009 at 9:47
Re: The vuvuzelas – surely someone has thought of using the noise-cancelling technology (used in some headphones) to do a software noise-cancellation bewteen the mixing board and the output? It’s perfect for noise cancellation, it’s a fairly constant, consitently pitched sound. It should be dead easy to remove in real time with the right software.
Anyway, that’s my 2c on that.
On our youth progression, I kind of agree that very few will make it, just the nature of the beast, but that we should still be trying them out. Even if it’s just 20 minutes here and there at the end of matches. Playing Giggs for 85 minutes against Chelsea was practically suicide. Similarly, Valencia never seems to get a rest, despite fading dramatically in the last 30 minutse of most matches.
Anyway, tonight should be a great night for football. So much going on with qualification, am going ot have to try to set up some computer/tv hybrid to follow it all!
I actually have a sneaking suspicion Portugal will go out, but France are more or less 100% home and dry. Russia should be fine and I really could care less about the Greece match, other than it being a travesty one of those teams goes through at the expense of, say, Portugal or France…
November 18th, 2009 at 10:04
hmmm, to much noise about nani and tosic and United not performing well. Its difficult to maintain a tempo for over 3 seasons. This lads are human not machines. Anyways having said that we need to sit up our assess to finish at second. The combo of wayne and berba is great but the problem is berba is that he is not clinical enough, owen is not the player he was years back. Torres will put away more chances than owen and berba put together if he is fit. What we have to sort out now is a technical problem. It’s either we get the best out of berba or get a better finisher that can pair rooney flawlessly.
Most people keep saying the supply is not there from the midfield. But look at berba statistics. He scores about one out of every ten attempts. We can’t win the league like that. With ronaldo, he scores about one out of three chances. Rooney needs a clinical finsher to operate with. Like the combination he had with Ronaldo. Fergie has to either sort that out or try sth different, like he did against chelsea, but then again the lads could not put the ball behind the line. So its not really a nani tosic debate. Its a fegie tactics debate to me.
November 18th, 2009 at 10:07
Now it seems Berba needs some kind of surgery or what. So who will pair rooney against everton. Owen??? I can’t see that clearly.
November 18th, 2009 at 10:11
United needs to be more technical in style like Barca. That’s the only style that I feel can produce the results we need. And don’t argue that their are no skillful players. Carrick-Anderson-Giggs-Fletcher- Schooles-Hargo(if he ever returns) can do the job. The wings are poor with Valencia. He alwalys delivers crosses without first observing who is in the box. Mr Nani does not look motivated and Ji is injured. Obertan is just comming up. So I will put the pressure on the midfield until the wings finally begin to fly, either nani wakes up or Valencia improves ( I doubt).
November 18th, 2009 at 10:13
How come Fergie likes Valencia. The guy can not go toe to toe with Silva or Walcot or even Lenon. The dude just does not fit to me. I wonder what Fergie sees there.
November 18th, 2009 at 10:26
If foster or nani wants to leave then farewell. I will miss nani though
November 18th, 2009 at 10:45
@NicoQB: I can see a lot of people are looking at Ronaldo of today and erroneously claiming he was anywhere close to what he is now. He wasn’t even regarded to be in the same class as Ricardo Quaresma for pity’s sake. He was not a sack or uselessness,no,but he was nowhere near world class. Otherwise that term is severely being abused and taken for granted. He was definitely world class POTENTIAL. It should be clear that in all my cases I’ve not compared Nani with current Ronaldo. There is clearly no comparison,otherwise it would be an insult to the current WPOTY and the next WPOTY, Lionel Messi.
But the comparison of their first seasons at United is more than relevant. Both arrived as wingers with rave reviews from Portugal. Both arrived as potential. I cannot deny and I didn’t,that Ronaldo came with more talent and skill. It’s just a matter of levels. But my comparison was and still is based on effectiveness and productivity. In my opinion Nani has been ,more productive,with considerably less oppportunities. Now this whole debate is not about Nani could have become better than Ronaldo but he would definitely have made significant strides on the path to world class football. I’m basing this on even the limited progress he has been making under adverse conditions.
Now let’s also get some context of this. You say Ronaldo wasn’t guaranteed a first eleven berth and I disagree. First and foremost,unlike Nani he had virtually no competition for the right wing position at that time. Beckham had left,and there was no natural right midfielder at the time. Giggs was firmly entrenched on the left and later on his competition was in the form of the wrongly positioned Darren Fletcher, who was definitely not a first eleven player. Then came Park ji Sung ( a player who fell as much as Ronaldo under challenge),who primarily played on the left but was played anywhere and everywhere. Secondly,no matter how inconsistent Ronaldo was he always knew he’d be in the team anyway for the next game. In other words, as a young player with potential,he was allowed room to make mistakes, to be frustrating but most importantly to get a run of games. It is the single most important thing for player development at any age but most importantly at a young age. Far from the case with Nani. Very far from the case indeed. All people keep saying is “how many more chances does he need”. I ask a more logical “what chances?”.
November 18th, 2009 at 11:04
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/2735139/Video-nasty.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW6IGqCBoZw
Can’t wait to here what SAF has to say about all this!
November 18th, 2009 at 11:57
@Grognard: I was referring to his end product in his first 2 seasons…
@Jay wire: Ronaldo had competition, or rather, he shared the right midfield position with Fletcher in his first 2 seasons or so.
And yes, while he had consistent playing time, its not like he was an automatic starter. Had Ronaldo started as many games, or had the number of minutes on the pitch a starter would have, I’m absolutely certain his statistics would be that of a budding world-class player, I’m thinking around 10 goals and double figures in assists.
Yes, his stepovers were all but useless and he had to trim much of the fanciful side of his game, but no way was he an underwhelming or ineffective player. I always remember how Ronaldo would usually come on for 20 minutes and create more in it offensively than his team mates. Then he’d lose the ball with a stepover, and commentors would comment on how he needed he was raw, and lacked delivery, blah blah, blah. So what if it was the case? That does not deter the fact that even then I thought he had a huge impact on our game.
November 18th, 2009 at 12:09
@Jay wire: As for the Nani debate, if you had read my previous comments in the preceding months, you would have known that most of the time I supported Craig in his statements that the boy Luis was never really given a consistent run in the side and the trust of the manager.
I was firmly in the “give him time and he’ll come good” camp. Was.
Now I have my doubts. Because of a statement of his claiming that he, quote, “should score more goals”. That showed me that 1. His role model is, in effect Ronaldo; 2. His first reflex is to look for an opportunity for himself, then look for the pass, which is not what a creative attacking midfielder should be doing.
Nani has all the skills sets necessary to assist 12+ goals and score 8, but unfortunately it seems he would rather score 15+ and assist 5, which is simply not going to happen.
November 18th, 2009 at 12:43
Ronaldo was world class when he was 17.. He was world class even when he played against united in the Sporting Lisbon match..
There is no way you can compare a 17 yr old Ronaldo to a 21 yr old Nani, cause a 17yr old ronaldo was 100 times the player nani is or was..
Ronaldo is a ‘once in a lifetime’ footballer mate.. Players like that dont arrive often.. Forget the goals, forget the assists, Forget even the misplaced passes – when a 17 yr old Ronaldo touched the ball with his feet at old trafford, there was a shiver of excitement through old trafford crowd, an anticipation of something exciting and monumentous.. Ronaldo was and is a wizard no matter 17 or 24 yr old.. Imposing himself upon the game, weaving his magic, DOMINATING – wow..
The very first match i saw him perform(not play!), i knew that he was a special one, indeed.. You cannot say the same about any of the other footballers, although i’d say i see some of those traits in a kid known as……………….
……..wait for it………
…………………….
ANDERSON!
November 18th, 2009 at 13:02
@Merlinus: Agree with you. It’s illogical to compare Ronaldo’s first 2 seasons with Nani. Coz Roanldo was 17 when he joined and Nani was 21.
November 18th, 2009 at 13:12
@Nafooy: Why only Grogy bro… i would like to know what all the Red Devils fans feel about this DIPPERS BS… Real cunts.. Born Bastards…
November 18th, 2009 at 13:13
@Nafooy: It clearly shows how much they hate the one only SAF and Red Nev. I mean anything and everything they do they just can’t seem to forget their name…..
Absolute legends…. both of them…..
November 18th, 2009 at 13:41
@Jay wire:
The whole Nani/Ronaldo comparison is invalid, the way I see it. When we first bought Ronaldo he was 17, a young player learning his game. When we bought Nani, he was almost 21! By which point he should already have more consistency and confidence in his ability than a maturing 17 year old. Were you to compare the two players at the same age, then i think you’d find the difference to be slightly more pronounced.
November 18th, 2009 at 13:47
@d’game:
Agreed. I’ve been significantly underwhelmed with Valencia so far this season. Was baffled by the purchase, but was hoping the manager was seeing something different. As it turns out he’s something of a one trick pony and the trick isn’t even that good!
November 18th, 2009 at 14:19
Di maria for 35mil? havent we learned from the berbatov experience? every time we played badly he took the blame for some reason.
November 18th, 2009 at 15:08
@ROOOOONEY: EEEhhhh?
Where do you get that?
November 18th, 2009 at 15:54
@Onkar: what does Grognard have to do with this?
If you were referring to the trumpts article, then addressing it to Grog’s attention is because of his clear and justified annoyance with these instruments. Has nothing to do with fans or Man Utd!
November 18th, 2009 at 16:20
@Merlinus: Agree…
November 18th, 2009 at 17:26
@Nafooy: Let’s give it to Liverpool. Now they can settle for 7th-5th place and watch this video to remind them of past glories… isn’t that what liverpool is all about. 18 wins… 18 years ago?
Champions League glory in 2005 was the last success of Liverpool over the past 18 years… I understand that Liverpool fans will eat this movie up and think that this is their year (to american football fans: they are becoming the Cleveland Browns with their continuous belief that every year is their year).
In fact, I am sure, as the season draws close and Liverpool are contending for next season’s trophies
that every scouser will be watching this movie, hugging their teddy, and drinking a glass of warm milk as tears trickle down their forlorn cheeks.
United > Liverpool, Always and forever.
November 18th, 2009 at 17:31
@Footy4Eddy: I thought you were ANDERSON?
November 18th, 2009 at 17:33
@Taehr: I’ll say this much, they will get either him or David Villa because they have the money to do so and because both players do not have too many team that currently can afford them interested.
November 18th, 2009 at 17:41
@Grognard: 28 year old villa fit the chelsea team better… he is old.
November 18th, 2009 at 17:43
@Beachryan: Why is it a travesty if Greece go through? What has Portugal ever won in major tournaments? Greece can at least say they have won a European Championship and are still being run by the same manager. I agree that not having Portugal in the finals would be a shame but the fact remains they need to earn it and deserve it. Right now I think they are sliding in through the back door which doesn’t impress me one bit. As for France, they are a disgrace. A rich football nation with a boat load of talent and they struggle every match because the players all have bad attitudes, cannot play with each other and because their manager is an idiot of epic proportions. And you have the nerve to put down Greece? A club that has achieved amazing things in the last five years under Rehagel and has been the poster boy of hope for all smaller nations in the world game showing that if you are well organized and work hard, great things can happen. And now they are less of a defensive team and a team that has the ability to score some goals. But you would deny them because of your built in bias? I have no problem wanting both France and Portugal to get in over Ukraine and Bosnia/Herzofwhatever, but even those nations deserve it more than France and Portugal. But I am a traditionalist too and I think it’s important for a super power like France to be there and the world’s best player not being there would be a real shame so yes, I am pulling for the undeserving Portuguese too. But do not be too critical of the Greeks. In world rankings, they are no longer a minnow and can beat anyone on any day.
November 18th, 2009 at 17:50
I know these rules weren’t just set in because of Alex Ferguson, but the FA need to take a good look at themselves. Sir Alex shouldn’t have to speak to somebody he doesn’t want to, he’s human after all. Sending Mike Phelan, though sometimes a little disappointing for the fans, is an apt act.
Opinion on Fergie is divided within the media, but as we all know, there are plenty of people who hate his guts and the very sight of him sends them livid. The recent blast on Ferguson for his, well let’s be honest, silly, yet mild comments on Wiley’s fitness has been ridiculous. I know you can’t criticise the refs and I think to an extent that’s fair enough but to be punished for saying somebody isn’t fit enough is football Fascism. And no, the refs still aren’t happy. They want some ridiculously lengthy ban and a large sum of money taken off him, what right do they have?
Fergie has done so much for English football, and I’m sure the people who have punished Ferguson will have prospered handsomely through his contributions in the past. But What have these refs done for football recently, except making terrible, terrible decisions?
I know the term ‘losing faith’ has been bounded around a lot recently, but, like I’m sure a lot of people here will concur, the amount of faith I hold for referees is minimal, the system is at the least biased through personal and collective opinions held for Alex Ferguson. It’s a huge shame really.
November 18th, 2009 at 17:51
@Grognard: I am everything, I am almighty.
November 18th, 2009 at 17:54
@Jay wire: Mate, Ronaldo at 17 was legions ahead of Nani at 21. Is that simpler for you to understand. Sure he had more world class potential back then than actual world class talent but he still could do much more than Nani and his aggressiveness and fearlessness made him a much greater threat in games. Sure he made mistakes but he also made much more happen in a game than Nani ever has. He also did it at a higher pace than Nani who tends to run around a lot at half speed or is often caught just standing around with the ball. The first time I saw Ronaldo was on his debut for us and I was watching the game with a friend on a sxreen at a college and I remarked to him that i believed after watching him for ten minutes that one day Ronaldo would be the best player in the world. The skill and the pace as well as the confidence and aggression was there for all to see. A good eye could see that there was plenty there for Fergie to work with. Sure there were many bad habits and some selfishness, but through time, this would become less of a problem.
Well Nani has been here three seasons now and I have yet to see the bad habits leave or the skill improve. He has gone from being pacey to just being lethargic. He plays with his head down and he hangs his head as a show of incredible lack of confidence and annoyance with his manager. Frankly, compared to a young and yet to be arrogant Ronaldo, he is moody and a real downer when on the pitch. Nani does not look to be having fun. And you feel he can be favorably compared to a young Ronaldo? I think not. Nani is a decent little player but he is not nor has he ever been in the same class as the world’s best player. And regardless of what Lio Messi has done or will win this year, make no mistake, Cristiano Ronaldo is the best player in the world.
November 18th, 2009 at 18:04
@Grognard: Like many people have said, Nani definitely has the ability, he just lacks the consistency.
Really Fergy should stop playing about playing him on the left. He has to take it onto his right to make a cross and that’s why he doesn’t use his pace to dash to the touchline around the player and just pisses about and then gets tackled. He played on the right for Portugal the other day and set up Nuno Gomes with a decent cross. His delivery is probably better than Valencia’s, he just doesn’t put the leg work in at the back.
Remember United V Tottenham, League Cup final last season. I think Nani was on the right on that occasion, Ronaldo wasn’t playing anyway. In the first half everything good that United did came from Nani. At the time, I was watching on a blurry, pub projector screen and for a long time I perceived I was watching Ronaldo. We need more performances like that. I just hope Fergy tries him on the right again before he goes and sells him to whoever, comes into his own there and becomes the one who got away.
November 18th, 2009 at 18:09
Maybe let of explain myself further. I don’t know how further I can go trying to point out the same thing. Rather maybe let me qualify my arguements with facts. And before I do this I’m going to reiterate that this is not a comparison of talent but that of development of potential. So those who like to jump into discussions without a background check take note. Now here are some facts. Ronaldo was not 17 when he joined us as is being claimed. He was 18. Nani joined at 20. But that’s not even the thing. Development of athletes takes place throughout most of their careers. Upward trends in development are predominant in the case of footballers between the ages of 16 and 26 give or take a couple of years in that range. So both players were firmly within the early stages of that range when they arrived. That’s why when they vote for Young Player of the Year, you have 17 year olds being compared to 22 year olds. It’s not far fetched. So once again I am not comparing the players’ talents or skill, but firstlly their progress and development in the team and surrounding circumstances. I’m also comparing their productivity and effectiveness. Who was more productive per opportunities given. That’s what I’m talking about,
November 18th, 2009 at 18:10
@Jay wire: Also, let me say that a lot of what you are saying is nothing more than just a pile of excuse making that is designed to build up Nani. I agree with many of your excuses actually and I do believe he is a good player who has gotten a raw deal, but the reason Ronaldo never struggled is because Ronaldo wouldn’t allow it. He had competition contrary to what you think because United were not so repressed financially back then and could easily go out and buy competition if need be. He still had to initially fight for playing time like anyone, but he took his chances and never looked back. He made it impossible for the manager to ignore or exclude him. He worked hard in games, took coaching and training well and showed an eagerness to learn and it showed. Big difference from Nani. Nani may work hard in training, I really don’t know but he has been very stubborn and reluctant to learn and adapt to what the manager and coaches have been trying to get him to learn. He has a mindset deeply instilled in his head that has been hard to alter. Add to that a stubbornness to alter his attitude and to stop hanging his head and stop looking like somebody just shot his mother and you would have a player with better body English and an attitude that one could work with.
Nani is not an impossible case but United is not the right fit or the right club for him. He needs to go to a team that does not look at discipline both on and off the field as vital a team that does not emphasize defense as much and a team that will allow Nani to be Nani and roam the field with no restrictions. His new team may not win a thing but as long as he is happy with his role, he will contribute more to the cause. He reminds me of a basketball friend I used to have who was an excellent shooter who had a few choice moves and shot locations he liked to use but who never liked to work hard or pass or do the team thing. When he was being coached by someone who knew the game he struggled and could not do anything but the team always won. When the coach left and the team was left a with nobody for a few weeks, he scored like crazy always demanding the ball and scoring a tone but here is the thing, the team not only lost during his hot streak, but lost big. That in a nutshell is Nani. Not a team player and not a player who can find the inner discipline that is necessary to exorcise his own demons and allow his natural talent to flow without it hurting the team. But this would take an IQ and that unfortunately is Nani’s real weakness. The physical talent is there, we have seen glimpses of it. It’s the mental aspect to the lad that is not strong enough and for that reason he fails. Ronaldo may be selfish, arrogant, cocky and a bit of an ass, but he got on well with his coaches and teammates and he had the capacity to learn and be coached.
November 18th, 2009 at 18:12
@Nafooy: Let them have their fun. It’s the only real thing that club has done in twenty years and so they need to continually come back to it and find ways to make fun of that perennial fly in their ointment, Man Utd and Fergie. Poor pathetic Scouser fucks.
November 18th, 2009 at 18:17
@NicoQB: What about it? He still scored more goals and still made enough crosses and good passes for me to believe he was on the right track. Sure he made mistakes too but nobody cannot tell me that there wasn’t a gradual improvement. I think back to his third season when he was the best player on the pitch in the FA Cup final vs Wigan and I think back to games before that where he would often take command of game and control it so much that he made everyone else around him better too. That’s something that Nani cannot and has never done. And lets also not forget that in his first two seasons with the club, Ronaldo was 17 and 18. Hell we bought Nani at 19. He should have been way ahead in his development even then. Ronaldo was great from the very first day. Yes he had his bumps in the road and his end product was not the awesome thing of today but I for one could see all the potential and I could also see the gradual improvement from season to season. His biggest improvement from the beginning to the player we know now is his ability to learn how to compose himself just before taking a shot. As a youth he often would rush things and get flustered. But that did not last for long and even then, he still found the back of the net a lot for a winger.
November 18th, 2009 at 18:30
@Merlinus: Well said mate. Exactly my thoughts on the subject. Comparing Ronaldo to Nani is like comparing cream to excrement. And before Craig or Jay Wire try to change things, let me say that it is Ronaldo that is the cream.
November 18th, 2009 at 18:32
@Onkar: Did you mistake Grognard for SAF? He never mentioned my name, he mentioned SAF in his comment. My my, that is high praise indeed when people read “SAF” and in their heads they think “Grognard” instead.
November 18th, 2009 at 18:35
Let me stand corrected on the fact that I said Nani was 19 when we got him. It was Anderson who was 19, Nani was in fact 21. Just adds fuel to my argument that Nani is not in the same universe as Ronaldo in skill and potential.
November 18th, 2009 at 18:36
@Grognard: That’s exactly what I’ve been saying!
Please go back to the start of the discussion with Jay Wire, and you’ll see that I was telling him how Ronaldo was just about world class from the first day he set foot in Manchester.
As for Nani, I don’t agree about the part where he never imposed himself at OT. We all know how good he was at the end of his first season to the point where it seems he was involved in half of the goals we scored. Most of us agree that Fergie has to take some responsibility in not giving him game time when he needed and also Nani not being a luminary by himself did not do himself any favors with his disappointing decision making when on the ball.
November 18th, 2009 at 18:37
@Nafooy: I think he was referring to the Liverpool film that mocks Fergie and United. He mistakenly named me instead of SAF in regards to a reaction I think.
November 18th, 2009 at 18:39
@[OPTI]Madschester United: I like Villa a lot but I sure don’t want him. He costs too much and he is too old. Whatever players we buy, we want them to be young enough that we can at least get a good six seasons out of them. Therefore, I want nobody bought over the age of 24.
November 18th, 2009 at 18:40
@Footy4Eddy: You are a legend in your mind.
November 18th, 2009 at 18:43
@Ober-fan: I big part of the problem with Nani is Fergie and our style of play. But where Fergie and our style of play never slowed down Ronaldo or made him ineffective, it does Nani. Therefore it is only common sense to say that Nani is just not good enough to work under SAF.
November 18th, 2009 at 18:47
@Jay wire: It still comes down to talent and skill mate. The rest means nothing if the players do not have that. Nani has talent and skill, there is no doubt about it, but it’s not even close to that of Ronaldo. What he doesn’t have is the discipline and the IQ that Ronaldo had because unlike Ronaldo, Nani is unable to adapt, to learn and to control his emotions in order to become a better player. He is headstrong and immature and he is stubborn as a mule. The psychological hurdles for one Louis Nani have not been properly conquered by Fergie and therefore, he must go to a team that hopefully will have more luck with him.
November 18th, 2009 at 18:52
@NicoQB: No, what I remember is how headstrong and undisciplined he was even in his first season and how he could have cost us the title with a stupid and selfish red card near the end. Since that red card he has stayed in Fergie’s doghouse simply because he has shown no willingness to get out of it and do what Fergie tells him to do. He wants to be a Ronaldo facsimile and yet he is not in the same class as him. When does he stop beating himself over the head and finally realize that as wingers go, he has more skill being a play maker than being a goal scorer? His lack of discipline and intelligence and his selfishness that were in evidence from his first season here have only gotten worse. And remember, he was 20 or 21 when he showed up here, not 17 or 18 like Ronaldo. He should have been more mature and more able to cope. For me he is a good player who just cannot tap into his potential as long as he stays at OT.
November 18th, 2009 at 18:55
@Grognard: Actually Andy was 18…
November 18th, 2009 at 18:58
@Grognard: Shame really that you are being targeted “unconciously” because some of us have the audacity to bring your attention to an article or a thought!
November 18th, 2009 at 18:58
@Grognard: By the way Grog, there was one thing I wanted to tell you. I think you have got me wrong when I said I was going to Roma, its not fully decided yet. Ive not signed a contract or made a vocal agreement(if thats what you call it). Its just that Roma looks the most likely destination! Ive been to trials with them and had discussions with their representatives, but Ive signed nothing yet. They said I could take my time, and I am. Ive still got contact form other clubs, and I am weighting up my options before I decide. I look at the plus-minus of going to each country and club, and as you say the Italian League may not fit me well. My physical play and fast thinking is better suited to the German or English League, so Im still in consideration here… Just to clear things up, because I get the impression that you think Im actually a Roma player!
November 18th, 2009 at 19:01
has anybody read this, the glazers are squeezing united pale and dry
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/2732963/Its-tight-at-the-top.html
November 18th, 2009 at 19:26
@vanderberg: I saw this too… while I could care less for the complaints in the paper (getting leftovers from kitchen, leftover chili, and extra couple seats), I am VERY interested in finding out how bad “our” (emotionally ours, economically Glazer’s) finances are?
I hope someone (who is paid) is doing some serious investigative work and will blow their secrets wide open.
This January transfer window should show a measure of how dire our situation is… if we buy cheap or do not spend at all, I think it points to us being in severe financial trouble.
Only time will tell…
November 18th, 2009 at 19:43
@Grognard: A friend of mine for a while had to live in the shadow of his brother, as the said brother was very gifted academically while he was just “normal”.
At a certain level its always going to be unfair to compare a player to Ronaldo. 21 years old is still young and bar his headbutt and antics, most people agree that nani’s first season augured a future full of promise.
As I said the fact that his career up till now has not lived up to expectations can be traced back to Fergie’s treatment of the boy and Nani’s own poor decisions on the pitch.
November 18th, 2009 at 20:30
Let’s look at what people have been claiming. First Ronaldo was not necessarily a first eleven player when he came. Others claim he shared the right wing berth with Darren Fletcher. Yes they did but to an extent which is negligable. Darren Fletcher was at best a squad player who was played anywhere in midfield. So to put him as significant competition is unrealistic. Now for facts. Please take note once again, especially those with amnesia, I am not comparing skills or who was better. The issue is of productivity and making a conclusion supported by “scientific” evidence,if you will.
Cristiano Ronaldo.
2003-2004
39 appearances
23 starts{14 in the league)
6 goals
4 assists
2004-2005
50 appearances
40 starts (25 in the league)
9 goals
4 assists
2005-2006
47 appearances
37 starts (24 in the league)
12 goals
7 assists
And Nani
39 appearances
25 starts(16 in the league)
4 goals 11 assists
2008-2009
30 appearances
23 starts (7 in the league)
6 goals
2 assists
2009-so far
13 appearances
11 starts (6 in the league)
2 goals
2 assists
November 18th, 2009 at 20:31
okay thats messy
November 18th, 2009 at 20:36
@Jay wire: So Nani and Ronaldo compare well statistically… similar numbers given games played…
November 18th, 2009 at 20:45
Nani will never be like Ronaldo. You may hope for it, but that is just like hoping you will make 1 fish feed a whole village. As long as Jesus is not involved, it will never happen. Let Nani be Nani, and I think he will come good. In my opinion Nani is a unique player, his own style is expetional and, as a winger, perfect! Lets face the facts. He is one hell of a crosser! He can beat a man. He has terrific speed, and a devilish shot. He is unpredictable, but sometimes too unpredictable. Seems like he tricks himself at times, he is that clever!
If he would just stop trying to be Ronaldo, he would be a very good player. I dont know if you guys have noticed this, but Nani is a true athlete as well. He is strong, agile and have good reactions. As a full back, I can tell you that facing wingers like Nani is the worst thing possible! I hope he will come good…
Recipe for Nani to become great:
Get Dzeko, Huntelaar(I still think he is Klaass), Cole or even Luis Fabiano, I tell you a good aerial striker would do wonders for Lil Man Luis. If not, let Kiko get more games because I personally feel he is a physical monster!
1. He has to stop trying to be Ronaldo.
2. Get some fucking confidence, believe in your own ability, because it is huuuuge!
3. Give him time.
4. Get laid, you need to relax…
5. Most important factor for me. For a crosser, there is nothing worse than looking into the box and see two chipmunks in there! Rooney and Owen are hobbits, while Berbatov is a pussy when it comes to aerial play. He may beat a man, and think of a cross. Then… Why cross? We are gonna lose the ball anyway, no way Owen can beat Vermaelen in the air. Oh well, lets cut inside and shoot the ball out for a throw in!
November 18th, 2009 at 20:49
I dont want us to sell Michael Jacks.. I mean Nani, yet. I think he is a brilliant player, give him time and a good aerial striker and we are talking terrorism from the portugeez. If I was Fergie, I would only strengthen this team with a top class keeper and a top class striker. No more needed. As Ive said so many times before, buy Neuer or Akinfeev and Dzeko and we are back on track!
November 18th, 2009 at 20:54
That’s the point. And more in the sense that the SOLE reason why Nani isn’t living up to expectations is SAF. Not Nani, not being unsuitable to English football or United. Just Sir Alex Ferguson and him alone. I’ve made the comparison with Ronaldo to show that given similar opportunities or even remotely similar, Nani would have been a big fixture in our squad by now.
November 18th, 2009 at 21:08
@ Eddy – Dude, who on this site has said Nani may become as good as Ronaldo? Or implied it in any way?
November 18th, 2009 at 21:18
@Jay wire: The main problem is that Nani compares himself to Ronaldo, or tries to become like him. Thats what is wrong…
November 18th, 2009 at 21:20
By the way the first reply was to Madchester
November 18th, 2009 at 21:29
@Jay wire: Using the reply button more often would help remove confusion.
Unless, of course, you’re not able to locate it.
November 18th, 2009 at 21:57
I thought I had already explained to you in a previous thread how I have been unable to use that reply button on my mobile device. Suggestions were made and nothing worked. Anyway I’m gonna be using a laptop shortly.
November 18th, 2009 at 21:58
Only seen Lloris a few times but everytime hes looked brilliant.
November 18th, 2009 at 23:13
Ireland are robbed by that that twat henry, fucking disgraceful fuching hell…
November 18th, 2009 at 23:58
@Nafooy: I guess I’m on some people’s minds because I am just as loud or as controversial as Fergie and so some on here often wonder how I’ll react to something just because I’m known to be hot headed and to speak mind and be painfully true about things. No harm done really, I just thought it was funny.
November 18th, 2009 at 23:59
Once an Arsenal player, always an Arsenal player…
November 19th, 2009 at 0:04
@Footy4Eddy: But you will learn more about the game and become a more well rounded and complete player if you got to Italy. Germany is good but it depends on the club. Italy may not play your style but their style is something that you should also incorporate into your game. You will learn absolutely fuck all in England unless you end up at United or Arsenal. They at least have a progressive and European attitude in the way they look at the game and how they work with youngsters. At Roma you will be exposed to the very best and most incredible technical experts in the game. Also, if your dream is to one day wear United red, you will be noticed by United much more if you are in Italy than even if you were in England. Fergie loves Italy and France and he has many scouts in Italy spying and taking notes. Kiko, Petruzzi and this new Danish CB are all prospects that they are finding in Italy. Obertan, Pogba and others are from France. For me it’s kind of clear that United are very strongly scouting France, Italy and Brazil for top talent. They do not care what the talent’s nationality is, they just feel those countries are producing the technically savvy kids they are looking for.
November 19th, 2009 at 0:07
@vanderberg: This is no surprise to me. I’ve been claiming this for months now and although this is a Sun article, I look to be proven right once again against those who contend that Fergie still has the Ronaldo money available to him when he wants it. Yeah right, and I am better looking than Eddy with gals on both arms and better on the pitch too.
November 19th, 2009 at 0:08
@[OPTI]Madschester United: Perhaps Fergie should rebel and fight his owners as opposed to referees. The Glazer’s are hurting this team far more than any group of referees could ever do.
November 19th, 2009 at 0:12
Russia… Fockin hell!!!
No Arshavin in South Africa!
November 19th, 2009 at 0:14
@NicoQB: I agree with you there. But also what has happened, has happened and nothing can be done about it. I have said all along that Nani has great skills but a ten cent head. Well I also think Fergie has erred with him many times as he is confused over the lad and isn’t sure how to get through to him. I won’t use the excuse cultural differences, but Nani seems less intent on learning and being attentive the old man than Ronaldo was. There is a reason why Fergie loves Ronny so much and why he had a fatherly approach and relationship to him. Ronaldo treated Fergie like a father and went to him with all his issues and learned from him. The also had a playful competition with each other because Ronaldo found a way to break down the old man’s reserve and managed to become trusted friends with him. Nani on the other hand would hide in the toilet stall and would work hard in training but be aloof and distant. There is no mystery here as to why one succeeded and one failed even if they were both equal in skills, although they clearly wee not.
November 19th, 2009 at 0:16
@Jay wire: But in Gods name is your point mate? Everything you are offering means little in the overall discussion and what is at the crux of the matter which is Nani’s slow development and questionable attitude and Fergie’s inability to figure him out and use him properly. What’s the point with all the useless stats. Sorry but they mean absolutely zero to this discussion. Who cares if he was 19 or 20 when he showed up?
November 19th, 2009 at 0:19
@[OPTI]Madschester United: Actullay they do not compare at all and above all, statistics do not tell the whole story. Therefore, the old adage that statistics are for losers speaks volumes here. And no Jay Wire, I am not calling you a loser mate, I’m just making a point that stats say very little. Man I can’t tell you how many games I have seen Ronaldo be outstanding and not get a goal or assist. Are those games included?
November 19th, 2009 at 0:21
@Footy4Eddy: Mate, we need midfielders. It’s funny how you bypass our greatest need because of your fear Anderson will end up in some hinterland.
Other than GK, our biggest needs are an AMF (Gourcuff) and both a RW/RM and LW/LM, although Obertan could work out ton the left.
November 19th, 2009 at 0:24
@Jay wire: Yes lets blame the man who has worked with thousands of player in his time and with hundreds at United. Lets call him a total muppet and blame it all on him and not the Michael Jackson clone who is too stubborn headstrong and a whole lot overrated. I am often on Fergie but I also know how many players he has taken and turned them into superstars. Yes he has made some mistakes with Nani but most of the blame is on Nani.
November 19th, 2009 at 0:27
@NicoQB: That also frees up Guus to take any job available to him in England. Can you all say LIVERPOOL? I guess Hiddink isn’t the miracle worker he though he was. Too many of his good players like Pavlyuchenko, Zhirkov and Pogrebnyak not getting enough playing time on their club teams to be in form for the national team.
November 19th, 2009 at 0:29
@Jay wire: Darren Fletcher playing anywhere in midfield? Not at all.
He is played only in two positions: Centre midfield and Right midfield. 5 to 6 years ago, he was being played almost entirely on the right of midfield, to which I was not happy as I knew his best position was in the centre, as well as Ronaldo being much more effective as an offensive threat.
Also your stats prove my point about Nani not playing to his strengths – that of providing assists, which he did very well in his rookie season…
Oh, and Portugal went through tonight.. Guess who provided the assist? Luis Nani, that’s who! As he did for first leg. Still life in the Cap Verdian?
November 19th, 2009 at 0:35
@Grognard: I think those stats are quite relevant in the big picture. You seem to have a problem in general with stats I believe. I think Jay wire has laid the blame on Ferguson, and while he’s brought up some valid points, he has to understand that if Nani was really that good, some of it might have shown in training or something to make him feel that spark.
It would be wrong to dismiss Jay wire’s comments as meaningless rubbish because it does bring in another valid dimension to the discussion. Statistics in themselves may not present the whole picture, but it certainly does add to the discussion, and I have to give Jay wire his due.
@Jay wire: You can’t lay the blame squarely on SAF. If it’s that black and white, I’m sorry, you’re being the ignorant one. SAF didn’t perhaps give him enough playing time, but if there was something extraordinarily Ronaldo like, it would have been quite obvious in training. It has to be a bit of both.
November 19th, 2009 at 0:36
@Grognard: Zhirkov has a chronic knee problem it seems. Even the doctors aren’t sure of the cause, according to reports.
November 19th, 2009 at 0:39
Disgusted at france – cheating f~cks
FIFA and refs conspire to keep the “big” teams in the world cup even tho they dont deserve it
Gutted
November 19th, 2009 at 0:46
@redpenguin: I just read about France-Ireland… What do they do if this was the World Cup Final?
We need replays, replays, plays, ays, s,….
November 19th, 2009 at 1:04
I don’t think that France are any more cheaters than any other country. Had it been any other team in the same predicament, I would not have been surprised if they acted the same.
Even the french pundits where I’m watching the game are quite a bit ashamed of the way in which they qualified. Lizarazu, as disgusted as he is, is doing a formidable job of trying to remain civil on live television…
But any neutral have to feel for the Irish..
Gotta sleep now. Well past time here.
November 19th, 2009 at 2:00
@Red Ranter: Stats are for losers. You forget that I have played and studied not one sport but half a dozen and the only sport where stats truly make a difference more than all the other elements in a game is baseball. There are so many intangibles that one can not measure in a game or player by stats. This is still a game played by human beings and not calculators. Sorry, I know you are a stats buff and there is a place for it but not when you compare to vastly different players in both skill and temperament. In that case stats go out the window.
November 19th, 2009 at 2:02
@Red Ranter: Just guessing but when doctors are stumped it’s probably s similar injury to Hargreaves. It comes and goes and it’s hard to find in an MRI or CT scan. Just a guess but lets wait and see if I am right. I wager on tendinitis.
November 19th, 2009 at 2:18
Well I finally started my campaign with Football Manager 2010 as Manchester United. Immediate changes i have made to the team before playing a regular season match are as follows.
Goodbye Charlie’s:
)
EVDS – GONE
BEN FOSTER – REALLY GONE (I sent him to a weather tracking station in Antarctica
NANI – GONE (Sold him to Sevilla. Hope he gets a good break there)
SCHOLES – GONZO – FINITO – KAPUT (I won’t even take him back as a coach)
NEVILLE – GONE – HISTORY -SAYONARA – ADIOS (Good riddance to bad rubbish I say)
WELBECK – GONE (Sold him to Steve Bruce)
TOSIC – GONE (Sold him to Bordeaux in the deal to get Gourcuff)
Johnny Come Lately’s:
RENE ADLER – (Chose him over Neuer because of his loyalty rating to United. Tough decision)
JACK RODWELL – (I am putting feelers out there for Rio as Jack will take over at CB eventually)
MILOS KRASIC – (Great player, fantastic hair)
YOANN GOURCUFF – (Cost me a lot and Tosic but will be worth it)
Am presently deciding on a LW/LMF player and have not made my mind up. Silva is heading the list but may be too costly and Di Maria is good but not my kind of player. And forget Ribery, I don’t have Ronaldo money anymore.) Will also look to replace Welbeck with a young striker with great potential that is between 20-22. Kind of like the Muller kid at Bayern. Any suggestions for LW and a young striker 20-22 are welcome.
November 19th, 2009 at 2:18
@Grognard: It’s amazing the stuff you’re saying there. What is my point? Did I not explain prior to giving those stats that they are based on proving productivity? And that was the millionth attempt of explaining myself. One definition of productivity is “the amount of physical output for each unit of productive input”. Correct me if I’m wrong,but I believe the primary physical output of wingers is making goals aka assists,followed by goals. That’s what productivity means. Check for your own definitions. And as far as I’m concerned “productive input” is about game time. So how are these stats “useless” and consisting of “absolutely zero” meaning?
Unlike you , I have supported my arguements with rock solid facts, as opposed to psycho-analysis and primarily hypothetical declarations. For instance,@Grognard:.
November 19th, 2009 at 2:24
@Grognard: This is the link I wanted on your unsubstantiated psycho-analysis.
November 19th, 2009 at 2:27
@Grognard: And this. Totally unsubstantiated.
November 19th, 2009 at 2:28
@Grognard: You are wrong on that. Stats do have a role in helping us understand part of the picture. You say they have zero relevance and that is completely off the mark that it’s ridiculous. Stats have some meaning, and add a dimension to any educated discussion. It is not everything, but at the same time it is not zero relevance as you said. It adds and aids, in football to a lesser degree than other sports, but it still has some meaning.
And it is precisely because you’ve said you’ve studied so many sports stats that I find it shocking that you seemed to make this observation. I am not a stats buff in football, but I recognize that it still is a part of a discussion. I will not centre an entire argument just based on stats, but to make an argument well rounded, stats are just as important.
My problem with this argument is that you are not even willing to acknowledge stats have some meaning, and Jay wire seems to contend that they mean everything. (Both extreme positions, and incorrect ones) Forgetting that analysing the relative success/failure of a player has to be a summation of a lot of factors where inter-personal relationships, environment, player’s talent and stats are all components. They are all like colours of the palette one uses to draw the big picture. And it’s naive if someone picks none (or picks one) and says it has completely no relevance (or THE main reason ,as applicable)
November 19th, 2009 at 2:42
@Grognard: Stats are very relevant in football. The same principle applies in basketball and most athletic sports. They are used to look at a player’s productivity based on his role. They are therefore a major part of performance appraisal. How do you measure the progress of a striker? Simple you look at their goals since their role in the team is to score goal. What do all great strikers in football history have in common? Why it’s goals obviously and goals scored is a statistic. Very relevant. You also look at something known as a games to goal ratio i.e. what is the average number of goals a striker scores in a single game. Shots to goal ratios to see who is more clinical.
Wingers. How do we tell that this is a productive and effective winger? Well we look at the amount of the product they produce. The product of a winger is primarily assists and goals. So it is very relevant to look at these to measure progress and to make comparisons.
November 19th, 2009 at 2:44
@Jay wire: Nani would be playing more if he was playing better!!
You are over thinking a very simple issue!!
When Nani decides to go on a blind run into a Cul-d-Sac, or shoots the ball in to row Z or passes the ball directly to a defender or decides to pass when he should shoot or shoots when he should pass – these are problems that are attributed to him playing poorly and not the fault of SAF, Rooney, Evra, Berbatov etc, etc.
He has had 2 1/2 seasons to prove himself and break into the starting team and he hasn’t. Do you think that just because he’s “Nani” he will be handed a starting job on a silver platter?
Frankly he has been given the same opportunities as everybody else, but has failed to cement a starting job because of his inconsistantcy and bone head decision making.
November 19th, 2009 at 2:48
@NicoQB: Okay fine. Darren Fletcher played in the middle and on the right. But was he really offering much competition? To prove that Ronaldo was a guaranteed 1st eleven,please name 3 players who played more games than him during any season. How many started more games than him? That would surely prove he was or wasn’t a first team player. I rest my case and my tired body and bid you all goodnight or whatever time you’re in
November 19th, 2009 at 2:56
@Jay wire: I like your point on stats for a striker. He is gauged by how many goals he scores and to a certain extent by his goals to per game ratio.
I think it’s vital to hold a strikers feet to the fire when these fall below what is expected!
When you’ve finished talking about Nani, you and I could have an interesting discussion on Berbatov!
November 19th, 2009 at 3:00
@Redrich: You know what man I can’t keep saying the same thing over and over again. Nani is young. He HAS to be inconsistent. Even Rooney IS inconsistent. Ronaldo was largely inconsistent and did the VERY SAME things you say Nani did. He is not Messi or Fabregas, who at 16 were playing like 26 year olds. Rafael and Fabio make BONEHEADED defensive decisions. Should they be disqualified? If ,just like everyone else,*insert any player below 23* he had been given his fair allowance of being inconsistent then it would have been different. But enough for today with the Nani stuff.
November 19th, 2009 at 3:03
@Redrich: I’ll hold you to that one. Sorry for caps but my eyes are heavy and the caffeine is not doing any favours.
November 19th, 2009 at 3:09
Regarding stats in football, the problem with stats mostly is because the game is much more fluid, and hence makes it hard to constrain them to the sport. Some stats do have value, like strikers for instance. But I think we haven’t determined effective metrics to fully gauge the effectiveness of a player purely based on stats unlike a lot of other sports. For instance what if someone is an excellent crosser, but finds no one good enough to be at the end of it? What if that makes his assist stats disproportionately low because of the incompetence of the strikers/tactics to take advantage of that?
Stats must be a part of a well reasoned debate, but are far from everything in football.
November 19th, 2009 at 3:22
@Jay wire: Just a quick one, mate, before you turn in.
Look I understand what you’re trying to say, but I believe that in the real world of running a Football team, you make selections based on what is best for the club, the team and the supporters – and not for the benefit of the individual players.
There is no question that a player will benefit from an extended run in the starting 11, but he has to prove his worth to the manager and the team. It’s the only truly fair way to ensure that they are rewarded for their good efforts and to create an incentive to perform well.
If Nani had done this, he would have been given the opportunity of that exrended run.
November 19th, 2009 at 3:33
@Red Ranter: Some are and some are not!!
Why would anyone consider a striker successful if he scores only a handful of goals each season, or a manager a good one if he loses more games than he wins. These are stats that make it or break it for the examples given here.
However as you say, the assist stat is asinine as is the one that tallies how far you’ve run in a game (Tevez would be the best if we believed that).
Clean sheets for a Goalie also is meaningless, IMO, because each goal he lets in, has its own value on how savable it was!!
November 19th, 2009 at 3:41
@Redrich: Yes I agree. Although assists could make sense if, for instance we were comparing a right winger to a left winger playing in the same starting XI over the course of a season or two. That gives us more sample size plus it makes it a more like for like comparison.
I think football is hard to describe with raw stats, and a lot of metrics one uses may be completely inadequate. But it cannot be summarily dismissed either. That’s all.
November 19th, 2009 at 4:18
@ RedRanter – sometimes you seem just to make your own conclusions before really assessing something. I never even implied that stats are everything as you pointed out in your last reply to Grognard. If you look at the major history of this debate, I only added stats as a last resort to support my arguement. Check the post with the stats and read it from the beginning. I used them as a support to prove that it is simple football truth that player development has an inseparable relationship with games played. Also to prove that Nani is a highly productive player. I know you’re trying to play it close to the fence and be balanced but I have to make it clear that I’m not implying that stats are everything.
November 19th, 2009 at 4:30
@Jay wire: I am aware that you pinned the blame primarily on Ferguson. You also referred to your stats as cold hard facts, making your comments come across as if it meant everything.
I am also not trying to strike a balance for the sake of it. I think football cannot be described in one or two metrics, but a combination of factors. That’s how one should judge players, a holistic evaluation. That doesn’t make me a fence sitter. And I’ll say that all things considered I think Nani hasn’t succeeded at United. Adding all the factors of Ferguson/Lack of starts/talent etc, I think the ultimate blame here is on Nani in my opinion.
November 19th, 2009 at 4:32
@Grognard: Is Toni Kroos too expensive?
November 19th, 2009 at 5:20
@Grognard: & @Nafooy:
November 19th, 2009 at 6:24
@Jay wire: Because they do not take in all the other substantial elements in a players development as well as his attitude and ability to take coaching. There are other issues at play here, not just goals and assists. The game has another dynamic that you are ignoring and this dynamic has more to do with Nani’s failure than his stats. Hell, from a stats point of view he would look to be doing fine. He does nothing for 89 minutes but then for one split second he crosses a ball to a teammate and boom, goal. In a sport where one goal often wins, one might consider that a good performance. I don’t. That is why statistics are for losers. Stats take what is inherently a very simple game and try to turn it into Rafa’s chessboard. Well as I am not a fan of Rafa’s way of thinking, I am not going to buy into it. Sell this stuff to Arsenal fans who buy into Wenger’s statistical revolution. Perhaps the reason why he hasn’t won anything for a long time is that stats have no pulse or passion, they are just number and it takes something that cannot be measured by mathematical equation to properly judge a player’s usefulness. Sorry mate but Stats are four letter word with an s at the end when it comes to me. I do not mean to rain on your efforts but I just do not buy into it from that perspective. The kind of statistics I do buy into are the ones of probability. You can find those all over the book “Soccernomics”. Now those are numbers I can buy in to.
November 19th, 2009 at 6:25
@Jay wire: I have no idea what you are talking about. What link?
November 19th, 2009 at 6:35
@Red Ranter: Yes stats have some meaning but your argument is that they mean nearly everything. So no mate, you are wrong. Have you ever played organized sports mate? If you have you know that there is a lot more to becoming a player than just the stats you offer in a given sport. So many people influence and guide you and how you take to all that has a lot to do with what kind of player you will be. Then the game starts and you go out there and do all the great things that statisticians don’t really count (although one can say there seems to be a stat for everything these days), as they are only really concerned with stats the lead to a an end product.
My thinking is far from ridiculous, it’s well thought out and a little bit to three dimensional for some of you. Like I said earlier, if one looks at stats Nani would come across as an effective player because he tends to be part of the end product for at least a goal in most games he plays. But Hell, mate, only Jay Wire and especially Craig are going to take that few seconds and give him a 9/10 for the game. I look at the whole game and his whole contribution while not getting seduced by the end product stats. And if you want to talk stats lets talk about how many tackles he missed, or how many times they took the ball off of him or how many bad passes and crosses he made in a game or how many times did he react negatively to a player taking the ball off of him etc etc. Like I said, there are stats for everything. So many that it is a mind blowing addition to a game that not too long ago used to have about a dozen statistical categories but now has literally dozens. No I say take the mathematician, chess player, economist and computer programmer out of the game as they just clog it up with boring and useless diarrhea. Sorry but you aren’t going to convert me on this one mate.
November 19th, 2009 at 6:38
@Jay wire: But they are not the only tool coaches and other use to define the worth of a team or a player. They are useful tool, not the end all be all. I like stats up to a point. I just know that there is a whole lot more to every sport than raw stats. That is my point.
November 19th, 2009 at 6:40
@Redrich: Once again Red, you say it so well. “You are over thinking a very simple issue” That left me all misty and emotional mate. Beautiful.
November 19th, 2009 at 6:45
@Redrich: Yes but here is the time when I come to the defense of a striker like Berbatov. Although I agree with you in theory, most strikers (the old school variety) require service into the box to get the chances they position themselves for. So a striker could be doing everything right like his movement, his instincts, his positioning and footwork etc, but if Nani or Valencia or Anderson don’t get him the ball, how can he be blamed. Every time Michael Owen comes into a game he makes dazzling diagonal runs and finds space off the shoulder of the last defender but rarely does he ever get spotted in time or ever get the ball in an area where ha has a good crack at goal. Now if he does get the ball and he continually gets stopped or he makes a meal of situations, then I agree. Berbatov in this case is guilty and innocent. I do not think he receives enough service but then again quite often he lacks the aggressiveness needed to find space and often when he gets his chance, he blows it.
November 19th, 2009 at 6:50
@Jay wire: Bull, he doesn’t have to be inconsistent. He is 22 or 23 now and has had more than enough time and experience to offer the club a lot more than just his curly locks and backflips. If he was 17 or 18 then yes he can be inconsistent, but not now, no way. This is Manchester United mate, not West Ham. We have no room for the vastly inconsistent. So Anderson, Berbatov, Valencia, Carrick, Evra and others who suffer from this malady take notice, you are all on borrowed time. This club is elite and requires players who are elite both physically and mentally and who bring their “A” game to the park 8/10 times, not 2/10. Nani’s growing and learning period ended a long time ago. It’s time for him to man up or shut the fuck up and get out out of town.
November 19th, 2009 at 6:50
@Grognard: You concluded from what I said that I meant stats mean nearly everything?
Really?
You haven’t even understood my argument.
All I was saying was that your statement “stats have zero relevance” was ridiculous not the rest of your argument which is about 90% close to my opinion on Nani as well. If you hold onto your fingers a little longer, scroll and re-read my arguments you’ll see that I don’t hold as much faith in the ability of current statistical metrics to describe the game of football.
The rest of your argument is essentially the same as mine.
November 19th, 2009 at 6:54
@Red Ranter: “Holistic evaluation” Interesting terminology but basically what I have been trying to say in my usual long winded manner. Stats are only a small part of a bigger whole.
November 19th, 2009 at 6:56
@Red Ranter: Haven’t got to him yet. I like him but I am not sure he suits my team over at OT. I have plans for Marin, Neuer, Kroos, Muller and Ozil elsewhere. They will be part of my Lyon style management of some German club like Moenchengladbach for example.
November 19th, 2009 at 6:59
@Red Ranter: Yes you are right, I overreacted in that statement, they do have relevance, but other than striker’s goal rates and goalkeepers save percentage, they really are not as vital or as important as some may think. I’d say they are about 15% relevant. So yes, I was wrrrr, I was wrrr, I was incorrect to dismiss them entirely.
November 19th, 2009 at 7:06
@Grognard: Nice to see you understand my point. Phew!
Anyway, this is a good article regarding stats and football — the comments are also pretty good for this. Have a read.
November 19th, 2009 at 7:40
@Grognard: I agree to large extent with your views as far as the numbers or statistics is concern. Even though I may not go to an extent in saying that the stats is useless in football i would like to say they are not that important and can be very misleading specially if you are looking at individual stats and ignoring team play as a whole.
I mean I would like to take couple of examples here to put my point across. The first is Valencia. I know not many here are fan of the player. But, the truth is he won’t be as successful with united as he was Wigan (I know pretty small club) because of a simple fact that he is crosser of the ball. Old style by line winger who needs target man in the center attacking the front and the far post like Becks used to have. Then only he will be successful. If you will see him play and count the potentially dangerous crosses then I am sure he pretty much has them in range of 5-8 in every match. But, who do we have to attack those. None. Imagine our old Rudd would have received those Valencia would have end up being 3 assists a game player Buy of the Season. So, what it suggest that even if he doesn’t have any assists to show for (at least not many) thats not because his inability to put in a ball (all the time)but because of other factors. But the Stats can’t explain that. So gross conclusion is Valencia is Shit.
Second example is based on someone Else’s argument that stats can be useful if judging the specific position like Striker. WRONG. As they may give you no of goals scored by that striker but will it explain how the overall team shaped up??? NO. The classic example is Rudd (Van the Man). In his time here he scored truckload of goals. But, what we won at his here nothing. Because, even when our striker scoring at unprecedented rate there were other factors like team play adn all which were hurt badly which was not getting reflected in the Stats,. The Stats were showing that he was a champion striker. (Which he still is and I just love him a lot, would have love to see him coming back for couple of mn then Mickey Owen, but alas…).
So, all I want to say these are the two examples which point to extreme that one player is a shit while other was champion but both were not making to much difference to team play as such.
All I am saying Stats in Game like FOOTBALL will only be useful when you are talking at Team level and not at individual level. Or else ask EVDS that how he managed to get that Statistical record for clean sheet. Was it his or for the entire defense… He will explain you what I want to say….
November 19th, 2009 at 8:11
@Grognard: Call me dellusional, but again I think you have misunderstood my point. This time conserning Anderson. Why do you think he is my favorite player? Why do you think I want him to play every game? Why do you think I get happy when he does seomthing well? Becuase, my dear friend, I actually consider Anderson a good player. You may say what you want, but in my mind Anderson has the potential to become one of the best midfielders in the game. Wouldnt I want one of our best players to start? Certanly ahead of Scholes…
He is young, and he is inconsistent. Its usual, even Ronaldo at his age was more incosistent than a teenage girl. But in Ronaldo we all saw some brilliance, we all knew he was destined for greatness. I see some of the same in Anderson, and I want him to play as many games as possible because it will onyl serve him and the team well. If he can become consistenly good he will be one of our top 3 most valuable players, believe you me. You may think otherwise, but I am certain of the fact that Ando will come great. 
You just see, time will tell whether you are right or wrong. So we wont need Gourcuff, even though I would be delighted if we got him, because I think only Iniesta is a better AM than him. But I trust me boy Andy, and when the day comes I will stand here and say I was the one who supported him when everybody was against him. 
You just watch…
November 19th, 2009 at 8:16
@Grognard: If I get to Arsenal or United, then I will probably be too lucky. Trust me mate, Im optimistic but being so hopeful can be bad for you. I will consider the options I have, and even though Roma are a great club who will offer me a lot, I am wondering whehter they, or Italy for that matter, are suited for my style. Like I said, the way football is played in the Premier League and Bundesliga is more like me. Fast, strong, techincal… And usually defenders get the better of the 50/50 tackles. But we will see!
November 19th, 2009 at 8:21
@Onkar: I`ll sum it up with simple mathematics:
Valencia+Nani+Rooney/Owen/Berbatov=
Valencia+Nani-Dzeko/Huntelaar=
Valencia+Nani+Dzeko/Huntelaar=
Simple…
November 19th, 2009 at 8:35
@Red Ranter: Am i frustrating you mate?
Hey, if it makes you feel better I often frustrate myself. If I could only control these multiple personalities in my head. 
November 19th, 2009 at 8:36
@Onkar: Well thought out argument mate. I agree. Stats are a crutch in my book.
November 19th, 2009 at 8:37
@Footy4Eddy: OK, you’re delusional.
November 19th, 2009 at 8:43
@Footy4Eddy: Consider this. What made Cantona such a great player? He adapted to the British game but he brought his own style and continental approach to the game. I think learning what Italy has to offer would really benefit your game. It would beat going to a Hell hole like Spurs and being trained and coached by muppets. In the end it’s your life and you will make the decisions, but let it be said, Grognard at least offered you his opinion for what it’s worth.
November 19th, 2009 at 8:46
Berbato is now the all time top goalscorer for bulgaria, and has the best strike rate internationally in the world. Bulgaria obviously know how to play him in the right system, why dont we?
November 19th, 2009 at 8:50
OK, so now I just added Philip Lahm to my FM10 team. What a day of business. Adler, Lahm, Gourcuff and Krasic and I am working on Di Maria. Man Lahm cost me 27 million pounds. Steep but worth it. Like real life Spurs are knocking on my door inquiring about Foster. I told Harry that I’d pay him to take him off of me.
Now I have to find a #3 keeper.
And finally one last word before I go to bed. Thierry Henry is a fucking snake in a grass and king sized French prick job. Disgraceful and shameful. And then there are the blind referee and linesman and the incompetent Blatter who will do nothing about it. An entire nation is crushed and their dream destroyed by a Larry Biird pass to Magic Johnson for an easy layup. What a joke. And you wonder why my continent looks at the game as something for fags.
November 19th, 2009 at 9:02
@Footy4Eddy: Yeah… So simple.. People just keep on writing post after post and make it so complicated that you need a statistician to solve the dilemma…..
But, yeah you are right, we need a target man who will attack the near post or far post on every given opportunity to make our wingers look better…
And I am sure that if that happens then the 4-4-2 will suit us even better….
November 19th, 2009 at 9:35
Ok new post up. Not exactly United related, but bear with me.
November 19th, 2009 at 9:38
@Footy4Eddy: I know you are good to understand this bro that the technical ability and education has no substitute in any sport. I know you are better than me in knowing ins-outs of footy but being the Cricket player in my life and playing it for around 8-9 yrs untill the university level I have come across one fact that flamboyance, brilliance and charisma are fine. These differentiate from great players from good players but for that fundamental requirement is you should have good technique to be a good player. I always felt being player who batted all my life in one of the trickiest position that is No.3 that all the other things like confidence, form etc are temporary the only thing that last with all your life is your technique. So, if I want to put my per cent into it then I would say no matter which country you choose as it is your choice but the choose the place where you will come across coaches and coaching staff who will be technically well equipped to help you grow and be better player as whole.
Remember one thing (I know you pretty much know it but still) solid technique has no substitute.
November 19th, 2009 at 11:25
@EDDY: ANDERSON will win ballond’or one day!.. definitely.. He’s a genius on the lines of Ronaldo, Maradona
, Pele,.. albeit a CAM…
@GROGGY: Yeah, I’m all for getting the player who if trained properly can become Zizou’s Reincarnation!
November 19th, 2009 at 15:03
Amazing. How then do people expect to look at whether a player was given enough opportunities without stats? Appearances is a statistic. Okay people help me out here. How else could you tell whether a player was given a fair shot relative to his teammates? How else can you prove a player’s productivity without looking at actual goals and assists? Everyone is willing to jump on about how many assists Berba had last season but if it’s Nani it’s always well he is crap for 89 min and for a split second he manages a half decent cross. Exaggeration of the highest order not least to say he doesn’t even play more than 70 min. But you can’t deny his productivity which is measured in no other way but by goals and assists. If anyone has any other means of measuring or assessing a winger’s productivity I’d be happy to know.
November 20th, 2009 at 5:35
@Grognard: what continent are you from??
November 25th, 2009 at 14:38
@Footy4Eddy:
Really liked ur simple mathematics.
Care to take vectors into the equation? LOL!.. joking…