May 30
On Sepptic Bladder’s 6-5 Plan
I wanted to actually title the post: “Sepptic Bladder’s Piss Poor Plan” [hope you get the pun], but decided against it at the last moment. Oh well.
So it’s official now, at least from the folks at FIFA. Some 155 members voted in favour of what could change the dynamics of the sport.
Now we usually don’t have general footy articles here, but this is certainly relevant to every club. According to the plan each club must play a minimum of six national players. So in the case of English clubs it would mean 6 English players — not British. [So the O'Sheas and Fletchers don't count]
Regulars would know my general apathy for the English national team, although I enjoy watching players like Rooney, Rio, Becks do well. But in general, I wouldn’t really care about the benefits the plan might have on England. However, if I do take my red tinted specs off for a moment, I would say that the idea is well intentioned in the sense that it attempts to restore some sort of order in the way players get poached from around Europe, Africa and South America. However, there is a reason why it wouldn’t work in England under the current set up.
Primarily, the 90-mile radius rule (or is it, 90km?) in England, where a club cannot sign youngsters beyond a radius of 90 km from the club makes the net pretty narrow for clubs to look at. As Brian McClair said when asked where the next Scholes and Giggs would come from: If the current academy system had been in place in the late 1980s United would not have signed Beckham, who grew up in Essex nor would they have signed the Nevilles, as they would have been snapped up by Bury at an early age and a prohibitive price put upon them. Scholes, he said, would have been at Oldham Athletic’s academy. Giggs would not have had the chance to leave Manchester City for the club he supported. United might have got Butt; they might not.
So you see where this thing goes? Removing this rule might be a start if the FA is somehow forced into implementing the 6-5 rule.
However, if the current situation is to remain, then English clubs would have to deal with a bigger beast: sky rocketing prices of English talent. When teams are forced into having a preset minimum number of players the demand for English players will sky-rocket overnight. Players like Kieron Dyer might sell for as much as £25m; ridiculous as that sounds now, it could very much turn out to be true if the demand is to shoot up.
So what are the chances of this being enforced?
Well, for one, Michel Platini has given his endorsement to Blatter’s proposal. [Did anyone think he wouldn't?] Blatter, meanwhile, feels hardly bothered by trifles such as European Labour Laws; “where there is a will there is a way” is his official line. So by that logic, I could will myself to become the manager of Manchester United. He will hold talks with the speaker of the European parliament on June 5.
I am not sure about the exact details of European laws, but I really don’t think they can stop FIFA. The FIFA rule does not specify how many footballers they can employ, but specifies the kind of players they can put out on the field during a game. So a club may employ as many foreigners as long as they put out only 5 out on the pitch. It doesn’t violate labour laws because there is no limit to the number of foreigners a club can recruit. It may go against the tenets of meritocracy — which is important in sport — but on the top of how things look to me, I wonder, beyond the noise made about labour laws in the EU, if the Europeans have a case to make against it.
All that said, getting back to United, I would want the club to have a good core of British players with a heady mix of foreigners. I wouldn’t like rigid laws dictate our team selection. Whilst this is expected to come in force in the 2012-13 season I would imagine clubs like Arsenal and Liverpool starting to think seriously about rebuilding than us.
Related items from Red Rants:- City Is Concerned About Some ‘Idiots’…
- United plan an Evil Empire of Online Domination
- Derby Day. Raging Ferg. Welbeck.
- The Most Insanely Arrogant Plan
- Ronaldo’s Not Worth United’s Principled Stance
Tags: Opinions/Columns
May 30th, 2008 at 23:41
Just typed a really long post which for some reason got lost. Rage.
In short, freedom to work anywhere in the EU is sacrosanct, so this policy will be challenged in the courts and ruled unlawful.
Relevant sporting examples:
1) Bosman - employment law ruling changes transfer market forever
2) Kolpak ruling - you won’t have heard of it because it is cricket - but it has undermined English cricket’s attempts to impose a maximum number of foreigners rule on the domestic game.
Google / wiki both if you’re interested - I might drop back and talk about Kolpak more later on if people are interested.
No way can Blatter make this fly in the EU, and therefore other countries won’t accept it either.
May 30th, 2008 at 23:56
[Penguin]
I know about the Kolpak ruling. But the way I see it is this: there is a restriction on the number of foreign players that can be put on the pitch. But no one is restricting the number of foreigners that can be on the payroll of the club.
So you could still have a squad of foreigners in the club. So Blatter could use it this way to put forward his ruling.
May 31st, 2008 at 0:04
The law is unenforceable.. any good lawyer will convince a judge that limiting the number of foreigners on the team will impact on freedom of employment conditions for foreign players in relation to the team. fifa will not succeed in distinguishing between english and for example italian nationalities, though they may be able to differentiate between eu and non eu players.
May 31st, 2008 at 0:12
i would sort of understand if it was some mad nationalistic idiot who wanted to get rid (ok, limit) of all the foreigners in todays game… or something like that… but why has Blatter got this idea in his head.. surely he shouldn’t give a damn about the English national team doing well (as this is what its about isn’t it? despite the fact that England have an ITALIAN in charge), its just a nonsensical ideal, can you imagine paying 10million+ for the likes of Titus bramble? if this gets through it will be the death of the modern game…. but i guess it does have one advantage in that arsenal football club would cease to exist. for once I’m glad of the European commissions existence , i just hope they don’t bend over for that blobby git who thinks he can do what he like with the game. the best teams get the best players regardless of there nationality and stupid stunts like this are just gonna bring down the quality of the game.. I’m sure there was a similar rule for the champions league back in the 90’s and that disappeared (can anyone back me up that?) and i sure didn’t see any benefits for the england team… just the fact that they are shit at penalties and always will be… Italian or no Italian. rant over.
May 31st, 2008 at 0:14
That’s great news. For me it’s the greatest news for football since…Rio and Giggsy grabbed that glorious 3rd CHL Trophy.
Of course E.U. laws won’t be able to stop FIFA.Will there be some new problems? Yes and No. The big four and the rich teams will have no problem signing the best domestic players. The poor clubs won’t sign the big names but since they are pushed to count on domestic talent they’ll do so.Till this new rule is a reality , the clubs will have their squads and their priorities readjusted.
When the new rules are a reality I see nothing but benefits for everyone. The big teams will have the old-school mentallity. I mean look at Arsenal… Is it an English team or a French team? All these French speaking players make the team lose the English personality. The no-stop-running THE WINNING MENTALITY that the real english clubs do have but Arsenal misses. Well what Arsenal and other clubs miss is the personality. Chelsea , Liverpool , the Laudrup-Desailly-Zola Chelsea. These teams have great squads but they re all non English. They re not homogenous.
The small clubs will have some benefits , too. Since they have the obligation to form a really domestic starting XI they ll rebuild their training grounds,they will have players that can be sold with high prices and they ll stop search for unknown talents all over the world who have an EU passport.Since they have the money from the domestic players , then they can pay for some really good foreign talents.
All these mean that the small clubs will get better and better.Also,the big clubs will have a real domestic personality.We will be able to see the Italian school aginst the Spanish the German and the English or French . Isn’t that what we want?
Also we don’t really care for teams like Arsenal or Liverpool
The only fear english clubs may have, is that welsh ,n. irish and scotish players are not considered as domestic.
May 31st, 2008 at 0:28
I’ve read this on a couple of places and this is what it says about ‘home grown players’. From telegraph.co.uk (sorry i dont know how to add a link without pasting it) You can see it on many different sites anyway…
“Uefa defines “home-grown players” as team members who, regardless of age or nationality, have been trained by their club or by another club in the National Association for at least three years between the ages of 15 and 21″.
Correct me if im wrong… but doesn’t that mean if you buy a foreigner aged 18 or 19 and train him till he turns 21, then he would qualify as home grown? (because he’s been trained by us for years 19,20,21?) So that would make the likes of o’shea and fletcher ‘home grown’, as well as maybe anderson too (i think he was 19 when he arrived?) And wasn’t ronaldo 19 too when he came? Not that it matters because he’ll probably be gone by 2012 anyway lol. But you get my drift….
SO, doesn’t that just mean that if we want foreign players, we just gotta buy them young(19 yrs or younger)?? And train them up till they turn 21 then they qualify as ‘home grown’?
That’s what im getting from that definition…does that seem correct? OR does it just apply to anyone bought AFTER 2012?
May 31st, 2008 at 0:30
Well at least they gave some time for us to react and adapt to it… United won’t have that much trouble with it because once there is an open quota system like there currently is, it is nearly impossible to revert to a closed quota system.
This reminds me of the rules in Turkey. There is a quota that only 8 non Turkish-citizen players can be under contract with a club. It is called 6+2. I’m pretty sure that it means 6 players can be on the field at any one time, and 2 can be on the bench, making a total of 8 players in the 16 man squad.
For the Turkcell Super League, it appears that teams like Fenerbahce, who always have 6 players on the starting lineup and can afford it, have done better in Europe because they took full advantage of the rule. What I have felt though, from friends and family over there is that people think that Fenerbahce is not “Turkish enough,” but rather Brazilian or foreign in essence. This means that people either love the Yellow Cannaries or hate them. I’m not a fan of any league team in Turkey, but have really seen the animosity towards foreign players from rival fans.
Coming back to how this affects United, it is clear that, especially recently, the Premier League and United have much of their success and global popularity attributed to the facts that there is no quota on foreign players. It is also clear that a good mix of British and foreign players (in United’s case) really advances our football as well as the international camaraderie of foreign players playing in England.
May 31st, 2008 at 0:43
The BEST thing about football is the fact that some teams have awesome talent and you get treated to wonderful entertainment. Having a rule like this just dilutes the talent and you’re no longer going to see great teams. So instead of more man utds, arsenals and Barcelonas, we’re going to have more newcastles and west hams. Is that really what people want to see? I can understand the logic behind it…but i just don’t think diluting the level of talent is going to help the appeal that football has.
Yes, the likes of arsenal should definitely have a few more Englishmen (but not HALF the bloody team, why not just 3 or 4?). But as a football fan i would much rather watch arsenal ’s continental style any day of the week than watch teams with a typical British ‘run really hard, boot the ball long to the big striker’ mentality.
May 31st, 2008 at 1:17
One of the ideas behind this is that the Birminghams and Wigans dont buy cheap foreign mercenaries and develop their own english talent or atleast give their english talent a chance. That maybe a good idea but then you will have a reduction in the numbers of good foreign players too. You cannot remove the mercenaries with this rule as it will remove the good players. Lesser chance of Henrys/Fabregas/ Ronaldos…
Another thing is you will have more englishmen in top flight.is that a good thing? There is no getting away from the fact that the English have the worst technique of the top countires in general. So then it will reduce the technique level in the league rather than improve the English team (I do not see how the English team is improve unless the grass roots are revolutionized, you will still get the same technique-less players only playing at a higher level,maybe at best marginally improving their game)
Anytime you have a system of rewarding players/people for factors other than merit, it is bound to get the overall level down.
Isnt that obvious?
May 31st, 2008 at 2:14
[T]
You’ve made an easy mixup that I think a lot of people are making, there are actually two seperate proposals, one from FIFA and one from UEFA. Blatter’s one advocates nationality-specific restrictions, and Penguin is right, that is just plain illegal in the EU and won’t ever come in. But apparently Platini’s one is perfectly legal as none of the conditions are nationality based, so it isn’t discrimination. It is, but still. They’re both unnecessary limitations on free-market football. I applaud the spirit of Platini’s proposal, but there are surely better ways to incentivise clubs investing in their youth systems.
May 31st, 2008 at 4:02
the thing is that the bigger the country the bigger the pool of players to choose from so the likes of Ireland, Wales and Scotland won’t be getting as many of their big players into the premier league and the domestic leagues in these countrys are badly run (Shelbourne were the best team in Ireland 2 or 3 years ago but spent too much money and went bankrupt). This brings down the quality of these nations as their best players won’t be playing against other good players and honestly is anyone going to take a Fletcher over an Anderson, a Robbie Keane over a Berbatov? As far as I can see its a rule that’s only helping the big nations like Spain and Italy and taking away from the smaller ones. But then again international football is pretty rubbish.
May 31st, 2008 at 5:58
I really believe the rule will bring about anarchy and countries will sever their ties to FIFA. I’m sure England would do just fine without FIFA’s meddling eye watching them. Yes we may lose European football until they wake up and smell the coffee but if other countries follow suit and revel against this stupid policy then football will create a new governing body and basically cast FIFA to the side. This is serious business and money talks. The leagues and the teams as well as the governments of the countries hurt most by this will not allow for it to stand in it’s present form. I’m all for a little reform and control but Slack Blatter’s plan punishes the the historically great clubs
with the money. It’s socialist in it’s theme and violates European Labor laws. As these laws are closely monitored and enforced in the Hague, there is no real chance of this plan being accepted. The only chance of actually stopping the influx of foreigners and creating more opportunity for domestic talent to climb the ladder is to create the dreaded salary cap. Basically, if a team is not allowed to spend over a given cap, they will have to go for cheaper talent. Problem is and RR brought this up, English agents are shrewed little bastards and the price for fringe or very ordinary English players will skyrocket. This 6-5 ruling could potentially be a powder keg of trouble for the European game that could be cataclysmic.
May 31st, 2008 at 7:38
Nikos: that logic about Arsenal is flawed. As much as i hate those pricks, i admit that no club has a resposibility to be ENGLISH. If you’re going to run football like a business, then it has to be meritocracy based. If someone is better than others, then so be it. That person deserves a chance to play. If you want to see the English/ or any other country for that matter of fact then watch international. the entire concept of clubs is to be devoid of nationality/. In fact i’d hate the clubs to be homogenous.
Also, Blatter’s plan is intended to improve national football. Where does this ruling leave a player like PARK???? Obviously doing so well for his country because they play for a club like united. It’ll lead to degradation in quality of his likes if they play for lower lubs which would happen because united would have to clear him.
Infact it would be a disincentive for clubs to even scout for rough talent. 5 foreigners means just buy the best available. 6 Englishmen means buy best available and keep buying them at outrageous prices from small clubs who in turn will keep getting them from the training grounds. It sounds okay! but there is a fundamental flaw. They still all stink. If the league is scattered by mediocrity, pumping more and more people will still keep it in mediocrity. Much like the Scottish League.
Meantime, lesser amount of talent is being unearthed from Africa/Asia/Americas.. Everyone loses…
May 31st, 2008 at 9:20
Anton Ferdinand, Rios brother, is maybe on his way to Old Trafford. Manchester United and Liverpool are supposed to have bid for the player, and since West Ham have 5 other centre-backs including youngster Tompkins rivaling with Anton he will look for a move this summer. United have sold Pique to Barcelona so they are looking for another defender. Silvestre is on his way out, Evans too, Unitd only have 3 qualified CB next season. Rio, Vidic and Wes Brown, who can also play right back. So United are looking for a centre back rather than a right back. Right back: Neville, Brown, Hargreaves, Oshea. Left Back: Evra, Oshea. Centre Back: Rio, Vidic, Wes Brown. Uniteds summer shopping list mat then be Dani Alves(LB and RB), Anton Ferdinand(CB) and a striker. My pick is Huntelaar.
May 31st, 2008 at 10:36
RD, evans isnt going next season, fergie has already said that.
May 31st, 2008 at 10:52
F***, this is annoying! I woke up with the news that Ronaldos godfather says that Ronaldo has already decided that he will go to Real “Shit” Madrid after the EURO 2008, then I read that Ronaldo says he wants to become an Old Trafford legend, and now Scolari has said that he adviced Ronaldo to move to Spain. I mean, what is this shit? You dont know what to believe anymore, your teams best player gives confusing messages all the time he is aksed where his future lies, the media just makes rumours to sell papers and dont seem to care about something that is called THE TRUTH, and the manager of Portugals national team, a friend of Fergie and CQ, says that he advices Ronaldo to move to Real. Man! Ronaldo, cant you just give an ending answer about your future, an answer that will make all the media shut up, an answer that will make all the fans and all your friends and team-mates calm. These are things that are not needed in football. Please make this rumours shut up and tell us your plans!
About this 6-5 rule, I dont think we need to worry too much. In the CL final, United played with 6 Englishmen and 5 foreigners(Ahmed Bilal wrote an article on Soccerlens that I think everyone should read), so we are doing all right in that respect. A team of Foster, Richards, Rio, Vidic, Evra, Nani, Hargreaves, Anderson, A winger since Ronny will have left by 2012, Rooney and another english stiker or winger wouldnt be too bad. Tevez will retire in 2012, he said so, and he wants to finish his career in Boca Juniors, so he will alos have left by then. It doesnt say that you are not allowed to put in foreigners on for Englishmen as subs, so I think we will cope well if this rule really comes up. I dont like it, but United will cope.
A pleasent news: http://www.goal.com/en/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=717778
May 31st, 2008 at 10:58
Confusing messages!
Ronaldo wants to become an Old Trafford legend: http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/2008/05/31/cristiano-ronaldo-wants-to-become-a-united-legend-89520-20589909/
Ronaldo has decided to go to Real: http://sport.setanta.com/en/Sport/News/Football/2008/05/30/Prem-Ronaldos-Godfather-on-Real-Madrid/
And now another one from CQ: http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11667_3632329,00.html
May 31st, 2008 at 11:07
And Scolari gets in on the Ronaldo-to-Real-is-the-best-for-him act: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/scolari-urges-ronaldo-to-leave-behind-his-united-memories-and-join-real-837467.html
May 31st, 2008 at 11:46
Just checked out team that started the Champions League Final and it had 6 English men so Sepp’s reasoning was rather moot when it came to us regarding the Champion’s League Final
May 31st, 2008 at 12:00
Champions League final teams:
Man Utd: VDS*, Brown, Rio, Vidic*, Evra*, Hargreaves, Carrick, Scholes, Ronaldo*, Tevez*, Rooney. 6 Englishmen, 5 Foreigners*.
Chelski: Cech*, Essien*, Terry-slips-a-lot, Carvalho*, A.Cole, Lampard, Makelele*, Ballack*, J.Cole, Malouda*, Drogba*. 4 Englishmen, 7 Foreigners.
May 31st, 2008 at 13:19
Kinda quiet at the moment…
May 31st, 2008 at 13:23
Its official then, football is going down the drain. Sepp “stupid” Platter wants to kill football, I dont know but I think its just jealousy having never played football or that swizerland is piss poor country of football but clearly hes just insane.
May 31st, 2008 at 14:20
‘Tis all rather confusing regarding Mr. Ronaldo at the moment. He’s just spoken (to Maxim magazine) saying that he won’t leave United until he emulates his #7 wearing predecessors, the likes of Best, Cantona & Beckham, and becomes a legend in his own right (source: Sky Sports Football site). He’s like a fookin windscreen wiper, saying one thing one minute and another the next.
May 31st, 2008 at 14:24
The EU says the rule is illegal
May 31st, 2008 at 14:26
So much for not talking about Ronaldo.
This 6 5 rule is probably the most controversial footballing subject of this year and it won’t even be implemented until 2012 at the earliest, this shows the gravity of the decision. I’m not 100% against it, but I don’t think the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.
RR;
Would have made a good title.
May 31st, 2008 at 15:46
I am not a big fan of Blatter at the best of times, but given he receieved support of 155 to 5 votes, it kind of rings hollow calling him insane.
May 31st, 2008 at 17:38
JB; No it isn’t because the whole body of FIFA is insane. Seriously though, I for one wouldn’t mind seeing some controls put in to make it possible for homegrown talent to get a better chance to develop but that means more positive changes put in place at the grass roots level. Lets not heap all the responsibility on the Prem for the poor quality of the English national team and the lack of quality home grown talent. Each team owes it to it’s fans to field the best team possible but I do feel that some teams take it way to far and to the extreme. Personally I think that Arsenal under Wenger are a disgrace. The fact that they even bother with a reserve team is a joke. Why the team doesn’t apply for admittance in the French League the Championat is beyond me? Lyon would finally be dethroned and Arsenal would finally win some silverware.
Some countries naturally carry a stronger responsibility for the success of their national team and that transfers itself to club teams. Both Italy and Germany feel the national team is priority and thus they have really made moves and progress in convincing club teams to limit their foreigners unofficially. Only big clubs like Bayern and teams like the two Milan’s seem bent on foreigners because of the pressure on them to compete in the Champions League. Still those clubs, especially Bayern field many of their country’s top homegrown talent. Klose, Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Podolski, Jansen, Borowski (now with Bayern) and the future of German football 17 year old Toni Kroos.
Bayern’s policy is simple. They will carry a good number of foreigners but they will at all cost rape every German team of their best German talent. This I’m afraid is what will happen to all leagues and especially the Prem if this ruling comes in to play. Many think it will improve the domestic product and give smaller clubs a better chance to compete. BOLLOCKS! All it’s going to do is steal the few assets remaining to small British sides, their homegrown talent who up until this ruling were widely ignored by the bigger clubs. Also, the big clubs will force the FA to take away the 90 mile limitation rule voicing concern that the top British clubs need this to compete in Europe. The FA will feel compelled to rid themselves of a rule that was to protect all teams and territories all in the name of national pride against the rest of Europe.
I don’t know, I just have a problem with this rule because things have already gotten so out of hand. This was not a problem in the 70’s and 80’s before the Bosman rule. When Liverpool, Nottingham Forest and Aston Villa won 7 European Cups in 10 years they did it with talent exclusively homegrown or from the UK in general. Italian and German teams had quotas of 2 or 3 foreigners allowed and nobody complained.
Maybe there will be an initial upheaval and turmoil that comes from all this but in the long run it may be the best thing for the British game and for it’s national team. It’s just it will take a long time for the changes to show a positive end product. England’s domestic game has gone to shite and it will take many years to start developing and producing enough world class talent to properly and sufficiently serve all the British teams and keep the best ones competitive in Europe. Until then, consider me a pessimist.
June 1st, 2008 at 9:16
the idea was voted by football representatives from all over the world not football clubs. for sure the national team want their want the own national player get more chances to play in their national league.
i don’t see Man Utd will be looser if this rule implemented.
June 1st, 2008 at 21:16
borakmanutd; That’s a bold statement that I cannot agree with but perhaps you can elaborate a little more as to why you feel it will not harm United or any other British Prem club for that matter?