Jan 11
Questions Continue to be Asked of United After Another Draw
Let’s be clear here: let’s just stop making excuses for our team. We can go on about our dominant possession; throw stats out in the air on how much of pitch area our players covered. And perhaps go on a rant about sides parking their bus against us. Or, how unfair Cameron Jerome’s goal was.
But what’s the point?
Oh, we can say United will never die. That is probably true, beyond the rhetoric nature of the chant. Even a side as wretched as Portsmouth — despite all the rumblings of discontent — will eventually find a benefactor to bail it out of trouble. As Simon Kuper in his book Soccernomics — or as it’s sold in the UK: ‘Why England Never Win‘ — said, football clubs are institutions, a reflection of strong community roots, and most of them will be bailed out eventually. Especially the big clubs are — as the phrase, we’ve become all too familiar with in this economy, goes — too big to fail.
A vast number of United fans’ support will also not die either. At least, I’ll speak for myself here. But is that really the point?
Saying we will never die, while rousing in its appeal in the terraces and perfect in a match scenario to raise player spirits, is terribly escapist when used outside like it was some sort of elixir. It’s a diversionary tactic; an LSD shot, if you will, when faced with a gloomy scenario, hoping said shot will make the disappointment go away. But we fans are not a monolith of homogeneous emotion. Different fans react to it in their own ways, and if this makes them feel better, then power to them.
But yours truly has grown a bit weary over the course of the season.
It’s not that we may not win anything that gets me. I have, at the start of the season said I don’t mind if we don’t win anything if we are making a definite transition towards a solid, better future. A season where we might frustrate dropping points, yet stay close to our philosophy of attack-minded free flowing football.
The constant refuge a lot of fans take in is to point to our league position. Considering how badly Liverpool are, how inconsistent both Chelsea and Arsenal have been we’re still second in the table, they would say. But if we’re second when the rest of the ‘big four’ have been average that’s not saying much about us now is it?
They will say we’ve lost Ronaldo and Tevez, so this will be a season of struggle. True, but it’s not like we gave Ronaldo for free is it now? We may struggle but have we been proactive enough in the transfer window to make a positive difference to our squad? Ferguson said we have cash to burn, but then goes on with his spiel that there is no value in this market.
Really?
I am not prepared to buy that. There’s enough evidence that, when you look properly, the right personnel could be got for value. Either we aren’t looking at the right kind of players, or we are skint.
But back to the Brum game. We attacked in numbers, but did we really have shots on goals that counted in the first half? Our goal was an own goal deflection for fuck’s sake! Some assorted half-chances — arguably Birmingham had better ones than us — and that was the game. The desire seemed to be there, but — and here’s the kicker — the quality was missing.
You can’t always blame the players or the tactics. Sometimes you just need someone who gives you that edge. Someone who makes Rooney look good. Someone who raises the game for you when the chips are down. Resilience, hard work, determination, Park-mindedness (or Park-arsedness) can only bring you so far. Flair gets you the extra inch. Last season we ground out victories, and we’ve done so every season.
Which brings us back to the deficiencies in the squad.
You’d have thought these reverses might have forced Ferguson’s hand in bringing someone in the January window. But all you hear are about having the money to burn but not finding value in the market. Well, then good luck finding value in the summer after the World Cup. There is the other almost Wengeresque quote from SAF about getting young players and nurturing them like we’ve always done. As far as I can see, we’ve invested in young stars and prospects and mixed them up with old heads. Scholes, Giggs and Neville have quite evidently tailed off this season. Giggs less so than Scholes, but still.
There is talk from the manager about Berbatov needing exploratory surgery, now. Interestingly, there was an article in the News of the World a few weeks ago about the Bulgarian requiring surgery which Ferguson brushed aside. Now the admission comes a few weeks later from the manager himself.
Another aspect of the manager that has begun to perplex me is his blaming the referees. Up to a limit, it serves as a diversionary tactic. You’d have thought he’d collect himself, and perhaps refrain from blaming the refs for our general shitness. Last week it was about added time against Leeds, this time it was about Fletcher’s sending off. Sometimes even we as fans have to hold our hands up and say, bollocks! We’re just shit.
I won’t end this with a ‘we’ll never die’ comment. That is assumed, and will go against the grain of what I’ve been trying to convey. Which is, regardless of how well we’ve been throughout Ferguson’s tenure, we should be able to call a spade a spade; in our case a rusty one at that — without being told we’re negative, knee jerk, and love to be so for the heck of it. If this is considered knee jerk, then it has to be the slowest knee to jerk in the history of mankind.
I would love to be proven wrong. Note: being proven wrong does not mean scrapping to win the title. Being proved wrong is to suddenly turn a corner and play like we were Barcelona in their pomp, or something. Which I think is unlikely and unreasonable to expect. But being proved wrong should at least mean showing enough during the rest of the season that this side is capable of growing and challenging for the future seasons.
The end.
Related items from Red Rants:
- Betting Preview: Manchester United set to thump Burnley
- Blah, Blah, Blah… Waffle, Waffle, Waffle…
- Three Questions for Manchester United
- Gill on City and Ronaldo
- Porto it is then…
Tags: Match Reports
January 11th, 2010 at 10:12
Just what every fan has been seeing but denying and there is nothing worse than living in denial.When we started talking here, alot of people thought these are scourse leaning bastards but i believed then like i believe now that we as a team need to be analyzed and call a spade a spade when we see one.
Talk of the world class players at our club just irks me these days and whats worse is that fans and the press choose to look at players like Nani and Tosic and their likes who never play instead of looking at the people who play week in week out and the manager who chooses the team and what sort of tactics if any does he employ?
January 11th, 2010 at 10:31
Mu biggest worry
is wen rooney (god forbid) gets injured.. den wat??
The gaffer doesnt trust owe, n lets face it Berba is more like a barbie, n probably is Fergie’s worst buy ever!!! so t futre holds Diouf, the Invisible Macheda , and Wellback!!! good luck with that!! we need to buy David Villa or another gr8 contemporary striker!! Amen!!
January 11th, 2010 at 11:00
@Musheer: When Rooney is fit ,Then also what we are achieving.An easy miss from 8yards against Leeds in that situation.A simple one on one miss against Birminghom.Plz stop giving too much credit to Rooney.When we needed he has not delivered.
January 11th, 2010 at 11:08
@donibrasco: What you on about – the team is analysed the fuck out of on this blog, and a spade is called a spade by many! Spades though are all very different when equated with peoples genuine opinions, so the spades they see as spades may not be your viewpoint on spades. Everyone sees things differently, no matter how we try to put across our viewpoints, they have theirs too – shame but FACT!
January 11th, 2010 at 11:19
Good article RR, but I’d settle for a few players showing us that there is at least some fucking GRIT and PASSION to be had for winning a game with pure bollock crunching football if necessary. Because we have too many girlie players giving us limped dicked performances out there. I excuse PIG, Evra, Wes Brown, Rafael, Fletch, (and Rooney but very infrequently) from the limp dicked list of dishonour.
January 11th, 2010 at 11:27
As much as people talk about tactics, the need for a decent number the fact is that the players are simply not good enough and for me that is the route of the problem, I admire what the manager has done this season and someone said “sack Fergie” I have never heard such rubbish as really he is getting more out of the players than most managers could.
January 11th, 2010 at 11:31
Agree with Owen: Rooney is undoubtedly a very good player, but hasn’t shown the levels of consistency & quality required to be regarded as a world class player. He’s been average for half the games he’s played this season. Admitadely he’s not helped by player selection and tactics but the kid has a way-to-go before securing world-class status (btw I’m convinced he will).
I haven’t a problem with finishing as low as fourth this season, so long as we’re actively developing our youth players and preparing them for the coming years. Anderson, Evans, Da Laet, Gibson, Obertan, Da Silva’s, Macheda, Tosic, Welbeck – if these guys are really the future of the club let’s give them games, and on a consistent basis.
I think a midfield with Obertan, Anderson, Fletcher & Valencia could be great for the future but it’s going to take years before we find-out; they never play two games in a row.
In my opinion, our biggest problem is the size of our squad and the level of rotation Fergie’s adopting. Let’s see a solid set-up with limited changes from game to game. Fergie used-to play lads for a long stretch, then if they were really tired, ship them off on a weeks’ holiday in the winter. He says the rotation policy is in-place to keep the lads fresh throughout the season, if that’s the case why do we see our best players on the field every single game? Evra, Rooney, Vidic, VDS, Ferdinad will play every game if fit and available.
Would like to see a quality, leading-line striker brought in during Jan, a consistently chosen midfield for the remainder of the season and a clear-out in the summer: Park/Nani/Foster/Berb/Owen/Neville/Scholes. Might be a little harsh but we were at our best when Fergie was cut-throat.
January 11th, 2010 at 11:38
@Stephen: Stephen what are you on about mate? Nobody has said ’sack Fergie’, but they have a right to complain about him. I mean do you really believe that his tactics, formations, square pegs/round holes, and NEVER playing any kind of established team so they get an understanding and idea of whose doing what, hasn’t had any bearing on our play this season? If so Bro, you are not as smart as I think you are! The Tinkerman’s tinkering has to fucking stop IF we are to do anything other than be laughed at and berated by press and other fans for our limp dicked performances all season.
January 11th, 2010 at 11:39
@CraigMc: Actually quite a few people on this blog (and elsewhere) have said sack Fergie.
January 11th, 2010 at 11:41
Jig what kind of future where those midfielders would be great?
January 11th, 2010 at 11:45
@Red Ranter: Well I can’t think of any mate – except for Grog when he has gone off on one
.
January 11th, 2010 at 11:48
RedRanter – have you seen the latest reports on Reuters about Man United refinancing their debt and making 500 million in the process. Please explain to me what all that means if you can mate. I thought with refinancing, you paid more not less, so how can we gain 500 million with the bonds system negotiated. Is that the amount we will be saving by renegotiating the deal??? I did read your article on the bonds thing, but I’m still a bit confused – sorry!
January 11th, 2010 at 12:07
Craig, Lots of people have but I am not saying that Fergie hasn’t made errors becuase he has and the lack of quality in the squad is down to him, but he is getting more out the side than most managers could. Playing Rooney up on his own for me is stupid and after the Leeds game you owed the fans to come out all guns blazing, and really should we show a side like Birmingham that type of respect by playing 4-5-1?
January 11th, 2010 at 12:10
ROOOONEY: I guess I’m saying, I’d be happy to see a combination, like the one mentioned above, given time to develop and offer us a solid platform for the future. Whether the players are good enough is debatable but without giving them a chance, it all seems a little pointless.
We seem to have lost any sense of structure over the past 5 years. The team was built around Ronaldo, which provided fantastic short-term results but meant we’re left with a gaping hole, as soon as he’s gone. Are we 4-4-2? 4-5-1? 4-2-3-1? Who knows? It’s obvious we need to re-shape the formation when required but I personally think players need a definite structure to work from.
It’s been plainly obvious for 5 years, that Rooney is best in the hole with a strong target-man in front of him, yet Ferguson has brought-in Berbatov & Owen. Good players in their own right but not suited to the structure around them.
The purchase of Valencia, and to a lesser extent Obertan, show that Ferguson is intent on bringing much-needed width into the squad. It’s essential to have a tall, strong target-man to take advantage of the width. Along with allowing Rooney move into no.10 territory we should be falling over ourselves to land someone suitable. We saw Ibrahimovich & Benzema move to Barca and Real respectively in the Summer – don’t know if either would fit the bill but they tick a lot of the boxes.
January 11th, 2010 at 12:49
@Stephen: No we shouldn’t, and because we did show respect, Brummie players are all over the news saying “Nobody has any reason to FEAR Man United anymore, they have NO BITE.”
.
January 11th, 2010 at 13:00
Craig, as far as I can tell it means we have refinanced our debt which means we don’t have to worry about it for a while, and by the time we have to refinance it again the credit conditions in the world will have improved. Of course we will still have a high interest payment burden that will eat into our profits. But I think overall it is fairly positive and means there is no danger of financial meltdown.
January 11th, 2010 at 13:06
fegie rotated the team for the 100th consecutive time!!!! now if the same team cant play two or more consecutive games, ts unlikely they could flow well… that is our main problem, no flow & poor finishing!!
January 11th, 2010 at 13:23
Now check this out.
Manchester United has reported pre-tax profits of £48.2m for the year to 30 June 2009.
The profit includes the £80m fee the club received from Real Madrid for the sale of Cristiano Ronaldo. Turnover rose to £91.3m from £80.4m a year ago.
So if we had used the ronaldo money for buying 2-3 good players, guess what that would have done to the bottomline. A cool -32m in the red.
With the 60-70m we pay in debt, how is that for saying that the Glazers have done us good. We do not have a transfer fund anymore, as long as we want to stay profitable.
We’ve been done in.
January 11th, 2010 at 13:32
I can agree with red ranter as i have been saying all these while. I don’t mind us being not able to win anything this season. But from what i have seen till now, our team is not playing well and stop talking about we are strong in the second half of the season. If Rooney is injured then i say goodbye. Rooney is a human and will not be good at all games and will be tired. Who is there to support him? I been wanting owen to play before the start of 2010. Fergie keeps playing welbeck! For god sake, Owen always on the bench and given less playing time than Welbeck. Owen time is running out. He is 30 years old now. He should be playing more often than Welbeck who has more playing time in the future. So the question is why do fergie keeps bringing Welbeck in instead of Owen? What do Welbeck bring us? Goal threats? Flair? Good crossing? Creative passing? Balanced? None! He gets the ball, he lose the ball. He gets the ball, he pass back. He gets the ball, he don’t know what to do with it. People saying he is young then why plays him? Giving him more playing time? In this difficult league? Planning for future? Enough. What i want is more consistent threats going forward. Not fearing we will get beaten by opponents all the time. Who to depend for goals? Rooney and ? If Rooney don’t score, who will score for us? Berbatov? He was invisible for the game against Leeds. I only notice him when he shouted at Valencia for not getting the ball! 30m for shouting all the time and not wanting the ball to always comes to your feet? Football is round and the ball will move, he must try to get the ball himself and not waiting for others to pass him the ball as if giving babies what they want. If not, he must create a chance to have a shot at goal and not wanting other players to have a goal. He is a striker and should be a threat to opponent more often than others. I know i might sound strict with the players but i want our team to play well and looks like scoring all the time. But against Brum, we had how many shots on goal? 1? or 0? I don’t remember we looks like scoring in the first half given that we had so much possession. Is it the opponent parking their players in the half? Then if it is, we need players that can unlock or pass a through ball in to the penalty area. Why do we not pass a ball in front? No strikers to prove more threats to opponent? Only Rooney? Berbatov injured? So we left with welbeck to score? Owen had so less playing time on field and not consistently playing makes his touch poor which i don’t blame him for not taking his chance. At least he is always on the right place where he looks like scoring. We lack a player who can create havoc to opponents. Anyone watch Bolton against Manchester City game? We need a player like Chung-Yong Lee. He runs fast, a constant threats, young and promising player. Moreover, he is cheap right now. Have a look at him play guys. This guy is impressing me all the time. He speaks highly for Evra and say he is the best left back in the world a few months back. We need him if we can’t buy any expensive players. Fergie keeps mentioning that there is no value in the market and we have the money from Ronaldo sales. “Manchester United have today announced pre-tax profits of just over £48 million, but that figure does include the £80m that the club received from Real Madrid for the sale of Cristiano Ronaldo.” See? Include Ronaldo sales!!! If we never sells Ronaldo we could have loss. The money is not available!
January 11th, 2010 at 13:36
@CraigMc: What we do is we take on more debt, £500million more, but the bond will pay off all existing debts and add another £500mil.
While this seems mental, it’s actually a good bit of business.
We’re currently paying off 2 debts, one of £400mil and one of £200mil. The largest part of our debt repayment is on the £200mil as its interest rate is 15%. The interest rate on the £400mil is only 5%, which is nothing. Unfortunately we have to pay off the lower rate one before we can pay off the higher rate one. This is why we cannot just raise and pay off the high interest £200mil debt.
This bond will leave us a debt of £1.1bn, but being paid off at around 5%. That’s an annual interest payment of £55mil. At the moment we’re paying nearly £80million and rising.
So overall we will save £25mil a season on repayment, and have £500mil in the bank to invest in he team or expanding the South Stand.
January 11th, 2010 at 13:38
@CraigMc:
As far as I know Man UTD as an entity which is held by Red football which can be called a company or Special Purpose Vehicle to complete the given purpose of takeover? This company has indirectly holds two debts on its book. One is Senior debts which are also known as secured debts and PIK the Payment In Kind debts which in is a personal liability of Glaziers at the time of takeover. Now the amounts of these debts available in public domain are GBP 500mn in which are secured against our assets such as Carrington, OT etc and around GBP175mn in terms of PIK on name Glaziers from Hedge Funds.
Now the if it would have been a case of only senior debts then we would have much better of as it must be getting charged as a interest in the tune of LIBOR + 2% to 4% at the max which will indirectly range from say 5%-7% depending on the market condition but still very competitive. But, the hitch is we are also having the debt from PIK which will be charged in the tune of 14.25% p.a. which is exorbitantly costly way of finance. What is worst about this debt like any other is if you won’t be able to pay the full finance charge then it will be added to your principal amount and then it will compounded. Given that for GBP175mn we have to approx GBP25mn and that to after we pay the obligatory payment of interest on secured loan which will be higher in the ranking. So, the problem in this system as I see from outside we are not left with enough cash-flow to pay off the PIK because we are required to pay senior debts first even though PIK’s are charged higher. This will lead to a bigger problem in the future if we are able to pay PIK’s as it will keep on getting compounded at a very high rate.
So, what Glaziers are trying to do (as I think) trying to restructure the debt which is typically called DEBT RESTRUCTURING in which you try and club all the different creditors on your book together at a competitive rate if possible. But, here is the main problem, as far as I know, Glaziers if they are looking for refinancing or restructuring the debts on there books then they will have top first to that in terms of senior debts holders as they have the charge on the assets on the company and once they clear that restructuring then only they can move further with restructuring of debts in this case PIKs.
So that is why as far as I understand they are going for the issue of GBP500mn as they can refinance the existing senior debts which will allow them the opportunity to somehow refinance PIK which core of the problem which we may face in future.
January 11th, 2010 at 13:39
@Traverse: I was tad late I suppose…Never the less Craigy is answered…
January 11th, 2010 at 13:46
perhaps it is time the old man-Fergie forgot about the Valencia style of one-sided dodging and blind crossing. United lacks the cutting edge and SAF cannot squarely rely on Rooney who loves the team to an extent that he would rather defend than score a goal. Owen lacks his kind and so does Berbatov. The market surely is the rescue.
January 11th, 2010 at 13:51
@Onkar: Thank god, we have a “Banking” fan on this site.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b4fa4e7e-fea9-11de-91d7-00144feab49a.html
January 11th, 2010 at 13:57
@Shami: Not a banking mate but a banker himself….
By the way great link… Very useful….
January 11th, 2010 at 14:08
@CraigMc: Nothing personal.What puzzles me is when ever the team performs poorly, fans start attacking reserves and players that never get a minute on the pitch instead of directing their rants on the players that get 90 minutes week in week out and the manager that picks them and decides the formation.
Then, the Berba bashing begins forgetting its the whole team that’s dysfunctional.Okay Rooney has scored more goals,but he has scored four penalties and we should know he is our number one striker.Am not blaming him, and instead of looking at the whole team,fans always lash out at Berba, Anderson,Tosic,Nani and its unfair
January 11th, 2010 at 14:21
@Onkar: I know..you work for SBI right?
January 11th, 2010 at 14:23
@CraigMc: you seem to disagree with whatever people say against man utd as far as today’s rant is concerned. i believe yo doing it for the sake and in yo heart you know that we’ve been shit all through. tell me, when is the last time you recall the team putting up a classy performance? at half the season, who in the team would you genuinely name in the EPL team? We’ve been shit for so many reasons ranging from poor tactics too poor personnel on the pitch and YES donibrasco is right.
January 11th, 2010 at 14:50
@Jay Jay: We stuffed Wigan a couple of weeks back and played well.
January 11th, 2010 at 15:11
@donibrasco: We don’t have players who play week in week out, and that’s a large part of our problem. Our centre backs are always injured, our midfielders are always rotated and Rooney doesn’t have anyone taking up the slack on an off day.
Valencia and Rooney have been our best players this season, and I’d wager they’ve played the most games and in a row.
January 11th, 2010 at 15:40
@Jay Jay: Errrr you have no fecking idea what you are talking about mate. I suggest you go back thru the last few threads and read thru my posts and then come back and apologise for your garbage assessment on what I think and feel about United’s performances. As for Donibrasco, I was agreeing with him in the aspect of calling a spade a spade, but I maintain that not everybody thinks the spade is the spade we are giving an opinion on
. I know most people on this blog, but I have no idea who the fuck you are, and therefore how can you possibly know my stance on United performances. I have been arguing on this blog and other United blogs about many United performances being SHITE PERSONIFIED, so before you go wanting to support your little friends on this blog like Donibrasco, first get you facts right about the person you are addressing and wrongly trying to correct. I doubt you will find a person on this blog who will agree with you, to say that I have come against them when they have said that United performances most of season have been shit. So go try and play your games with someone else eh? Also I expect those who know me, and know this is true what I am saying to stand up and be heard, and that includes Red Ranter!
January 11th, 2010 at 15:42
@Jay Jay: Erm, he’s been one of the few people on here who’s been saying we’ve been shit from the start of the season.
January 11th, 2010 at 16:01
@donibrasco: Well I am certainly not a NANI basher mate, in fact I am a BASHER of the NANI bashers
. I think your wrong though mate, because every player you mentioned, plus the whole of the first team, SAF and his deficiences have been BASHED on here for most of this paltry season. By the same token, in fairness when they are performing well, even if they don’t win we pour praise on them, so its swings and roundabouts!
January 11th, 2010 at 16:15
@Traverse: 1.1 billion of debt – feck me, that seems atrocious mate, I think I hate the Glaziers NOW whereas I never really thought about them before. I mean how many years will it take us to pay off 1.1 billion, seeing we only pay off the interest. We are always going to be 1.1 billion in debt for the rest of our lives. Have I got that right, if so I just developed a headache the size of the Universe!
January 11th, 2010 at 16:45
1 Billion @ 5-7% is more managable in the long run than our current debt structure. It’s the difference between borrowing for the entire value on a home at a fixed rate versus making a downpayment with a credit card and then borrow more under traditional methods.
Our debt creates conflicts of interest and negatively affects management decisions. Accounting for other imposed restrictions, the glazers ought to force fergie’s hand in releasing scholes and nev. Both earn between 50,000 and 60,000 a week (collectively 6 million wasted)not to mention take away from valuable first team experience for younger (and better) players.
January 11th, 2010 at 16:46
@CraigMc:
Surely its a vicious cycle which puts undue ammounts of non-football related stress on the players and staff at the club. If the success of clearing the debt relies on maintaining our success (which has never been seen before… perhaps with the exception of liverpools dominance in the 1980’s) But even if we are continually successful there is no hope of breaking even with the interest payments (unless we sell a home, away, and third kit to every man woman and unborn child in China) But If the success does continue it will mean the Glazers will look to offset more payments against the success of the club, i.e. they will find it easier to re-finance the next time they decide they need to do it. Its a sad state of affairs. I mean we won 3 cups last year and finished runners up in the biggest club tournament in the world, and yet we still had to sell our star player (all be it for a world record sum) to end up with a positive profit! Its time that these big greedy buisnesmen realised that whilst there are huge sums of money wrapped up in Football, its not in the same league as massive buisnessess in other areas, and it proves it if the Biggest team in England if not the World struggles. How on earth would anyone be able to pay off that amount of money?
January 11th, 2010 at 16:48
If we were falling miles behind our rivals, I would understand articles like this. But we’re not. If you look at the league table, we’re in a great position. The league table determines who wins the title, not how many shots on target you have against Birmingham.
It’s a shit season in the Premiership, everyone is dropping points, ourselves included. Chelsea drew 0-0 at St. Andrews, for example. Arsenal drew 2-2 at home with Everton after going behind twice and equalising on both occasions with ridiculous deflections. Liverpool, the press’ favourites to win the league back in the summer, aren’t even on the radar.
United aren’t playing well enough, that’s a given. Fortunately, nobody else is either. Maybe next season, when we have our first choice goal keeper playing, and even just defenders playing in defence, have made another signing or two, we’ll be top of the table.
But drawing 1-1 away from home against the 8th best side in the country who had conceded just 3 goals in their 10 home games before the weekend, is not a bad result.
January 11th, 2010 at 17:00
@Scott:
Writing this kind of article when we’re miles away from the title race would be too easy. It’s like saying the sun rises in the east: everyone could see that. What I’m on about is obvious failings in the side and not just about the Brum defeat.
Even if we had our best defence I think we’re terribly lacking up front, not to mention the lack of service from an inconsistent midfield. Fletcher is the only consistent midfielder for us.
This isn’t even about the league table for me. If we scrap to the title and if that makes you happy then good for you. We used to write reams about how shit Chelsea used to play and win the title. We used to show distaste for Mourinho’s style and used to be proud about our philosophy of attacking football.
I see none of that.
If we win the title this season playing in this vein it shouldn’t mask the obvious failings of the side. Ferguson has done a great job with what he has, but he has also been stubborn enough to not strengthen.
I don’t care if we don’t win the league. That’s not what I am bothered about. There is just no way to predict how we play this season. And pointing at other teams failings does nothing towards addressing our squad.
Maybe as you said next season will be different. But I am talking about this season. And reporting on it. And I don’t like what I see.
January 11th, 2010 at 17:01
@CraigMc: Not in your lifetime, mate!!
January 11th, 2010 at 17:08
@Scott:
Keep on spinning Scott. But one of these days you’ll come to a standstill and you’ll be facing the horrible truth.
Good luck with that!!
January 11th, 2010 at 17:23
How is what the glazers doing legal? They are in essence getting creditors to pay off their other creditors. Isn’t that basically a ponzi scheme?
I’m with Craig Mc on this one, 1.1b in debt doesn’t make me feel any better. I think the premier league should add a few more things to their “fit and proper standards” one of those things is that owners who saddle their club in debt should be forced to pay it back quickly. I’m not a money man so obviously their are holes in my idea but I hope you grasp what I am getting at. Basically weed out those owners who simply can’t afford to run a club.
January 11th, 2010 at 17:28
@Red Ranter: RR that was a very good post you wrote, in fact I’d go as far as to say thats one of the best things I’ve read from you.
There is just something about Fergusons approach to this whole thing that just doesn’t sit right with me. The issue of do we have or not have the funds to buy new players is one thing – lets face it, no company would want it’s management spouting off to the press about it’s financial situation. But this whole idea that he thinks he can pull the wool over the eyes of the fans by selling us un-truths about the quality of his squad is proposturous.
Who does he think he’s fooling??
He has been with us a long time now and has given us successes beyond any reasonable expectation and to an extent this could be the core of the problem. He’s booked so much good will that perhaps he now feels that he can “walk on water”.
I certainly am not calling for his head, but I would like to remind him that he is the manager and as such, is responsible for the slop that he’s serving up game after game.
The issue of the finances and the issue of the way we are playing have to be separated. After all the Glazers will be judged in their field of expertise – making money, and Ferguson will be judged on his – winning Football games.
January 11th, 2010 at 17:36
I am absolutely livid with our owners and the fact that this plan of theirs actually makes good business sense! It does in fact make good business sense, but only because of the shit sandwich our club has been forcing us to eat in the first place! So the doctor says, “well you are only going to have to lose your arms instead of all four limbs!” Point is, we never should have been in this situation is the first place and the fact that people are actually forced to look at this as a good deal is utterly pathetic! I am a proud American and a proud United supporter, but the Glazer family have made me embarassed to be either of those at times and this is one of those times. These arseholes should be run through and Mancs like Craigy should be running through the streets of Manchester with flames and pitchforks calling for the heads of these loser clowns. What the hell is happening? The Glazers can take their bonds and shove them up their arse. We need to do something lads…I am going crazy!!!
January 11th, 2010 at 17:41
@RichmondRed: Wouldn’t hurt any if Ferguson piped up to voice his discomfort about the state of things, would it??
January 11th, 2010 at 17:52
@Redrich: Absolutely Redrich! I could not agree with you more. SAF needs to get off his arse and talk about this to the supporters. I am sick and tired of his lies and coverups and misleading statements about our clubs finances. I am only slightly less pissed off at Fergie as I am our owners. All of this shite is nonsense and eventually this club, if it is continued to be run the way it is, is going to fall and fall hard! We will continue to buy Obertan’s and Valencia’s until we find ourselves scrapping to make the top four like Loserpool and we have other clubs like Man Shitty and Chelski laugh and point at us when we are the ones who have not won a title in 50 years and are always resigned to say “next year will be our year.” I am so pissed right now…and I am still waiting on my second daughter to arrive as my wife is five days beyond her due date. The last thing I needed was this shite of news
January 11th, 2010 at 17:53
@Redrich: Don’t you mean the Glazers will be judged on the money made for them off the backs of others
January 11th, 2010 at 17:55
@RichmondRed: If I was you Bro I would concentrate on your wife and expected daughter, and leave the United shit for those who are being paid megabucks to take care of it all
January 11th, 2010 at 17:58
@Johnsom33: What I can’t understand mate, is that ordinary folk have a credit limit level on their borrowing, so how come the Glazers don’t???
January 11th, 2010 at 18:02
@Roge9: 50 to 60 thousand quid a week, are you kidding me, they are on 100,000 plus bonuses I would wager!
January 11th, 2010 at 18:07
@CraigMc: Because ordinary people have ordinary money and debt. When you get to the rarified air of the uber rich, you are in bed with all the other money people. The glazers debt will get passed around like a party joint until someone gets left with the bill. That someone will declare bankruptcy(or get bailed out by the government) and then the cycle restarts. And at the end of the day it’s the little people like us who are left paying for everything.
January 11th, 2010 at 18:10
@Scott: Not a bad result but a VERY LUCKY one! You seem to be very easily pleased Scott, so who am I to discourage you
. As long as we are up there, we shouldn’t care about all the ‘limped dicked’ performances eh?
January 11th, 2010 at 18:12
@Johnsom33: I hear you, and I do agree.
January 11th, 2010 at 18:17
@CraigMc: I am trying mate but it is very difficult considering United are right up there in my list of priorities in life. As far as leaving it to all the money bag suits…well, where has that gotten us eh?
January 11th, 2010 at 18:23
@CraigMc: Well in the world of finance, anything goes mate. Play within the rules and then how you go about it, really is arbitrary.
Unless there are rules put in place to stop these kind of takeovers, people like the Glazers will walk all over people like you and me to achieve their goals.
I don’t condone what they’ve done, but it’s the way of the world, alas.
January 11th, 2010 at 18:24
@RichmondRed:
I know what you mean Bro!
January 11th, 2010 at 18:26
@Redrich: Yeah but it is the club hierarchy knowing what they were getting us into, still rubber stamped it – disrespectful to their fans BASTARDS!
January 11th, 2010 at 18:41
@CraigMc: I don’t know how that all shook down, but it seems that money talks and there is little that anyone can do to stop the hostility of a takeover like that.
Unless the FA of PL of some other governing body requires that new ownership put down a very large sum of cash (to secure a majority equity stake) this will go on ad infinitum!!
January 11th, 2010 at 18:51
@Red Ranter: I think you underestimate the importance of the defense for the front line. Last season the team entered every game thinking 1 goal would probably secure a win since it conceded so few goals. This season they seem to be thinking about scoring at least 2 or 3 goals, always expecting the other team to score. I have hardly seen the fast paced football this season we have come to know and love, rather a team that is always in a hurry.
I still have this nagging feeling that we will win the league. That would probably postpone the obvious changes this team needs that so many of you have pointed out on this site.
January 11th, 2010 at 18:56
RR, now that’s a great post and a great example of not sitting on the fence. You took a stand and as I predicted, I knew it would be a knockout. Well done mate.
I am reading everyone’s posts this morning as the Glazer’s have yet again become the central topic due to their 48 million profit and their new bond supposedly being issued to them. Pretty dire stuff if you ask me. The whole proves to me what I was saying from the beginning which was that the Ronaldo money was never going towards players but towards the debt or the Glazer’s. Sad really that without the Ronaldo sale this club would actually have made a loss this year considering the kind of money it brings in from worldwide profits. It just shows you how badly we are sinking in debt.
So what does the future hold? Well the sad thing for the Glazer’s and for Fergie is that in order for this team to make the money necessary to continue making profits, it needs to continue winning and competing at the highest level. How is this supposed to be done when the team will not spend the money required to improve the team with better players and when the manager continues to turn off fans day after day by offering some of the most disgusting and dull football ever imagined?
It’s funny as I sit back today reading everyone’s heartfelt posts and realizing that I no longer am the lone voice in the wilderness. That now I have a legion of supporters who are singing my tune whether they want to or not. The reality of the situation has finally hit home with many and my rants are now no longer being looked at as the stylings of a complete looney toon. That of course does not mean that I am not a looney toon, it just means that I was at least right in my pre season assessment of the team and it’s structural predicament. I have always been right about the Glazer’s and I know in my heart that I am also right about Fergie and the fact that he has sold the legions of fans of this great club down the river without a hesitation or a regret. His lies and his deceit have finally caught up with him and he no longer has any stroke or little support from the people who have finally figured out he has been so full of bullshit. His lies about Berbatov’s knee just a few weeks ago are an example of just how dishonest he has become as he was finally forced to admit to all that that the Bulgarian will need exploratory surgery. And my God, how many other lies or white lies has he thrown at us over the last two seasons?
So where do we go from here? Honestly, I know what needs to be done but that ship isn’t gonna sail anytime soon. The one thing that I would ask of Fergie is that if he plans to sell players, he should do so now not just in the summer. I f he plans on buying a few players he should do so now, not in the summer. He needs to understand that nobody with an IQ higher than a Scouser will buy the no value line that he has been using for a year now. There is value out there and there is quality. The club has players with some value still. Sell them , get what you can for them and take that money and any pocket money that the club has available to it and buy a striker and LW or AMF. Talk about Benzema is just that, talk. We cannot afford what Real want for Benzema. We need to sell Nani, Anderson, Foster and Berbatov and all together I doubt we will muster up 30 million. Considering that all those players cost us nearly a combined 60 million to buy, I’d say that was proof enough of our manager no longer having an eye for talent and our scouts showing us that they all had their heads collectively stuck up each others asses.
United need to get creative players on the wing and in the middle if things are going to improve on the field. Fergie can no longer avoid and ignore this need. Saturday’s game showcased just how useless and inept we are in breaking down defenses and how lacking in skill, class and imagination we presently find ourselves. Then I watch the Barcelona match, the Madrid match and the Valencia match over the weekend and I see artistic and creative clinics being held by the likes of Silva, Villa, Iniesta, Ronaldo and others as all three of those games had so much inventiveness and imagination on display, it literally made me want to cry. The setups for Messi were outstanding, a great goal by Silva as he teamed up with Villa on a great counter attack and the great goal by Higuain all highlights and moments I watch and realize, we have nobody on this team other than Rooney who is even remotely capable of creating and finishing off movements like those. Depressing times indeed.
We need help, and we need it now. Fo rthis club to avoid a bigger debt and to ensure that the debt be paid off needs to stay successful and maintain it’s market appeal. Our present lack of talent coupled with the negative way in which we are playing is driving away the fans and much needed revenues to the team. The only way to make money is to spend it and in United’s case, it needs to spend money on new players and sack the manager and bring in a new positive thinking and aggressive manager who will lead the club forward rather than sit on his hands, chew gum and think of the past while he watches Neville, Giggs and Scholes maneuver on the pitch using their walkers. New players and a fresh, positive and progressive tactical approach is needed. Right now this club is stuck in the mud and is being held back by old fashioned thinking and a lack of vision.
January 11th, 2010 at 18:57
RedRanter – You’re not comparing our style of football this season with Mourinho’s at Chelsea are you? Just because we aren’t playing very well this season, I can’t agree that we look ANYTHING like Mourinho’s Chelsea sides in 05 and 06. They sat back in their half and at the half way line, would go a goal up, and shut up shop.
To comment on the present and not take in to consideration obvious factors is a flawed way of doing things. At the moment, we are 1 point behind Chelsea. Had we enjoyed the luxury of even just four fit defenders and our first choice keeper this season (Van der Sar has played just 5 games for us!) then it makes sense to think we would currently be top of the league. Alternatively, if Chelsea had suffered anything like the injuries we had, again, it makes sense to think we would currently be top of the league.
RedRich – Well, I guess I started my spinning in 2006 and I haven’t come to a standstill yet. Christ, we were a lot worse off 2004-2006. It’s a shame so many of our fans have become too spoilt.
January 11th, 2010 at 19:02
Put it this way, if we were 3+ points clear at the top of the table because we had VDS in goal all season, would you be writing something like this on the back of 1-1 draw away to the 8th best side in the country? If no, then it is clear our dreadful situation has effected our season. If yes, then I do worry that for some our fans if being top of the table when we haven’t been playing well isn’t good enough.
January 11th, 2010 at 19:08
Frankly, if we had the 60 million of the Ronaldo money, we could easily buy three or four players that would make a big difference with the club right now. Neuer for 15 million (and worth every penny), Krasic another 15 million, and either Gourcuff or Benzema for 20 to 25 million and add Kjaer for to 7 million. I firmly believe we could get all these players for that amount of money. Gourcuff is the only one I could see possibly going up in value to the point where we cannot afford him. Benzema’s value will have dropped at Madrid, and Krasic may go up a bit but still, I think all these players are available and good value for the money.
But here is the thing, they are worth that now. Their value will go up after the World Cup. I would not risk losing any player targets due to the increase in asking price the World Cup brings. And it will hike up prices greatly, believe me. Fergie is an idiot of epic proportions if he thinks he will find that all elusive value for his buck this summer. If Benzema or Gourcuff end up having a great World Cup for France, heaven help the asking price. They could both go from around 20 to 25 million all the way up beyond 40 million. If Neuer ends up being the German #1 over Adler, the chances are very high his value will skyrocket because lets face it, Germany always seems to make the final four. The time for buying players is right now. The only player I can see not being available right now is Gourcuff but I think all the others could be bought now and at a cheaper rate than in the summer and with less competition from other teams. But not only do we not have the money, but even if we did, we have a stubborn mule in charge who refuses to admit his mistakes and is conveniently sitting on his hands chewing his gum and suffering from chronic denial. Sad times indeed.
January 11th, 2010 at 19:14
@Scott: I believe a lot of things and performances have formulated the eventual writing of this article, and in my opinion RR said well what many United faithful have been saying for a long time. Perhaps not on your site Scott, because if anyone strays from the positive ‘all is well’ and IF you don’t agree you are not a true fan, or you are a blue nose, or a septic scouse supporter. If indeed you are the Scott, administrator of ROM, you cannot deny this, because you yourself have accused me of that on more than one occasion when I visited your site. If you are not Scott from ROM then sincere apologies mate! RR has give his honest opinion, and you have given yours, so fair enough all round!
January 11th, 2010 at 19:14
@Grognard: You were never alone!!
January 11th, 2010 at 19:14
@Scott: I don’t know mate. They scored 72 goals each season and had an impregnable defense. 72 goals is more than what we scored last season and will be more than our final tally this season. Chelsea back then did sit on a lead a lot because they could. But they also had the ability to score when they needed it most. If they were tied or behind, they found a way to get a win or steal a point. They had mojo and mucho confidence and their manager had a chip on his shoulder that was well deserved. I fail to see your argument and truly, I am tired of listening to those who have the temerity to assume that we are fine and that this club will win it all this season. I’m not accusing you of this but I am just tired of all the positive talk about our current situation because it’s naive and based on nothing more than blind faith. I no longer have faith in our manager or this team to amount to anything. The standings are just a misleading situation that is blinding many from the reality of the situation.
January 11th, 2010 at 19:23
@Scott: Your not blaming our defense are you – because sounds like that! I think we all know that we would be well in front in the PL IF we had forwards who could put the ball in the net when they come against packed defences where there is no space. Rooney had at least 3 good chances against the Brummies, and one of them was one on one with the GK, and he yet again couldn’t do the job for us. Even our makeshift defence wasn’t to blame for most of the games we lost, except I suppose you could say that Wes Brown messed up for the goal Leeds got at OT. It has been MF and especially ineptitude in the strike department that has not allowed us to capitalise and be sitting pretty at the top. We have had 3 chances now to take our opportunity to establish a bit of a strong hold on top spot and have fucked them all up. Spoilt or not spoilt has nothing to do with the FACTS mate!
January 11th, 2010 at 19:24
@Redrich: Oh trust me mate, there have been times I have felt like I was. It’s nice to not feel alone in my quest anymore but still, I wished I was wrong. My narcissistic manner of communicating coupled with my pride and arrogance may show me as a person who would rather see the club fail in order to be proven right, but that is so far from the truth. The sad thing is that for 18 months I have been crying wolf and especially for the last 6 months but every time I did so, I actually meant it. Now people are seeing what I have been seeing for so long. It’s sad that so many of us now have to endure that pain and frustration.
The sad thing about pro sports is that their is a structure and hierarchy in place that tends to avoid and ignore it’s customers. In any retail or service industry based business, the customer is always right and if I order a lunch and it’s poorly cooked, I can return it or refuse to pay. In sports though, a poor product can be served to you week in and week out and they will gladly take your money but what rarely happens is a refund for a poor performance or a policy of listening to disgruntled customers (aka fans). In good times they take our money and shit on us and in bad times they take our money and shit on us. Truthfully, more fans, especially the ones living in Manchester should be a lot more pissed off and less willing to spend their hard earned cash on such a terrible product. When will we all learn to just say NO?
January 11th, 2010 at 19:26
@Scott: And I stopped reading your bullshit in 2008.
Propaganda is my least favorite thing to read and frankly, I can sniff it out from a mile away.
Stick around here at your own peril mate, we’re in no mood to listen to your manufactured reasoning’s and the sickly sweet silver linings.
If you’re trying to audition for a spot on MUFC, keep it up, mate – you and them would make the perfect match.
January 11th, 2010 at 19:27
@CraigMc: Considering our defensive play has been poor and our players at the back have all been injured at some point this season, I think we have actually shown ourselves to be decent defensively. We give up more chances than in the past but we are not giving up an alarming amount of goals. I agree, it’s our inability to score goals against anyone else other than Wigan that hurts us. Our attack, not our defense is holding us back. Earlier in the year there was an argument that Foster was hurting us but that no longer is the case.
January 11th, 2010 at 19:34
@Redrich: Correction ->
MUFCI meant MUTV.January 11th, 2010 at 19:40
@CraigMc: you cannot know everyone who post here mate
and fyi to me it sounds as though you are the only one who has the devine right to condemn United, when others do you think otherwise and when you do, you expect others to agree with you.
i wont exchange words with, atleast am intelligent and polite enough to respect your opinion! even if its gabbage, i wont tell you that…
January 11th, 2010 at 19:42
I’m laughing at the fact that Tom Hicks Jr has stepped down because of his e-mail tirade towards a fan forum.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1242290/Tom-Hicks-Jr-resigns-Liverpool-director-extraordinary-foul-mouthed-rant-stuns-supporters.html
Truthfully I would see it as a breath of fresh air if somebody from United showed that kind of temper towards somebody like me. At least it would show me that they care and are reading what the fans have to say. But nobody at OT can be bothered with any of us or how we feel.
January 11th, 2010 at 19:43
@Red Ranter:he’s done that because his beloved Nani hasn’t been playing. RR quote one day when Nani played and he talks about how shit we were?
January 11th, 2010 at 19:49
@Jay Jay: How old are you eh?, because you sound like a 12 year old! I might never admit to Nani playing shit too often, but I have been saying all bloody season that UNited are playing shite. Plenty on here know that and can testify to it!
January 11th, 2010 at 19:51
@Jay Jay: By the way we would have won if my beloved Nani was playing! Can any of you lads on here tell me in the games Nani has played this season, how many we have lost? All you great statisticians?????
January 11th, 2010 at 19:54
@Grognard:
– yeah Grog, but once again in the scouse case the fans can dish it out but can’t take it back, and have to involve the website owners/administrators to fight their battles for them – WIMPS!
January 11th, 2010 at 20:01
@Jay Jay: You are so misinformed Jay Jay. Only confirms that you don’t frequent this blog very often, because I have backed up many a persons arguement on here, and also fought against many a persons arguement that I had a different opinion to. Funny thing is though, the point you wanted to make about my response to Donibrasco’s point, I was actually supporting his calling a spade a spade remark. Even Donibrasco himself will attest that I supported his remarks on Rooney, and he and I got into a right banter with fans who disagreed with us on Rooney. So I can only conclude you know nowt mate, not about this blog, and not about the way we all respond to each other when we agree or disagree! Your right I can’t know everybody on this blog maybe, but I’d wager I know a good deal of them more than you know, and their personalites and ideaology
January 11th, 2010 at 20:16
@Grognard: Here, grog, if you feel so inclined. Not sure it’ll reach it’s intended target.
First Allied Corp contact info.
January 11th, 2010 at 20:25
@Jay Jay: Dont blame CraigMc,He almost know all the regulars.I think you have visited this site first time.So it will take time to understand but we almost know with what the other is coming before he posts.
January 11th, 2010 at 20:37
@owen: atleast not you Owen, i can assure you the time you joined! and mate, not posting everyday doesnt mean you aint a regular, pipo have work and other errands to do at times. Even the moderator RR cannot afford to post everyday.
January 11th, 2010 at 20:49
@CraigMc: Maybe in their prime 100 quid, but they are now squad players and willing servants, so no way is it more than 60, with max 18-20 in bonuses.
January 11th, 2010 at 20:49
@CraigMc: wow, Mr know it all and know everything. i can sense the adrenaline is going up! i should actually ask you how old you are? you respond as though you are a two year old twat. i cannot pull out all the archives but i know on several occassions you’ve disagreed how shitty we’ve been, and i can put my head to be chopped off! Let RR retrieve the archives. when Nani is on the pitch watever we do is classic (to you) and anyone who disagrees with it you castigate them, i dont know if it’s because you stupidly think they attacking Nani. REMEMBER WHEN YOU ASKED ME IF I’VE EVER BEEN TO THE TERRACES?
Let all those seniles who think am a newbie here look back till 2007, all even laugh when people like Owen say i aint a regular here. I would rather post once a year than posting rubbish like Owen’s a daily basis
January 11th, 2010 at 20:51
@Red Ranter
Brilliant article. This article had just the right combination of facts, emotion, humour and sarcasm. I love it. I agree with RedRich, this is surely one of your best articles.
I’m surprised that you took Grognard’s advice to jump off the fence. Glad, but surprised.
January 11th, 2010 at 20:52
@Jay Jay: Well that’s true mate, we all do have jobs and it just isn’t possible for some to post as much as others – so I appreciate your point there. I workd for myself, with nobody around to tell me what to do
, so I can keep bobbing on the blog a bit more often. I just finally got the second part of a massive project sent to me, with deadlines, so I won’t be able to come and talk in the next few months as much as I like too 
January 11th, 2010 at 20:52
@Jay Jay: Better you dont post 1 also in a year.
January 11th, 2010 at 20:55
@Jay Jay: This is a very frequent excuse here that this is my first post but i am following this for too long
January 11th, 2010 at 20:55
@Jay Jay: Settle down mate. We don’t do name calling here, and if you keep it up you’ll get booted!!
January 11th, 2010 at 20:57
@Jay Jay</a I'm in my twenties mate, and I agree with you about Nani but not with your other points. However THEY ARE YOUR VIEWPOINT, to which you are entitled as I am to mine. So for the sake of others on the blog I will leave it there. Before RedRanter feels it necessary to jump in and rap both our knuckles and deservedly so
January 11th, 2010 at 20:57
@Jay Jay: @CraigMc: You were both right, but you both fail to see that. I think the problem comes in because of the personal remarks made to each other. Is it really worth having a personal go at each other (or alternatively stated – having a ‘dick-fight’) when there’s so much more important stuff to discus? I can think of at least 1.1 billion more important stuff?
January 11th, 2010 at 20:57
A comparision between Berbaov and Arshavin at one site:
Dimitar Berbatov and Andrei Arshavin are unquestionably two of the most technically gifted players in the Premier League. They’re both important creative influences at their respective clubs but both regurlarly find themselves being accused of contributing very little for long periods in matches, and yet one is a seemingly-untouchable media darling (Arshavin) whilst the other is dismissed as a failure (Berbatov). Why is this?
Their league statistics so far this season:
Berbatov: 12 starts, 17 appearances, 6 goals, 3 assists
Arshavin: 15 starts, 17 appearances, 6 goals, 2 assists
As you can see, considering the fact that Berbatov has been carrying a troublesome knee injury since October, his contribution (at least statistically) actually looks marginally better. Neither are goalscoring strikers in the traditional sense, at least not in the roles they are used in with their current clubs. Berbatov is generally used at United as a deep-lying creative forward, almost in a traditional “number 10” role at times, whereas Arshavin is an inside forward similar to how Thierry Henry operates at Barcelona, although he’s currently spending a lot of his time as the main striker in the absence of Robin Van Persie.
January 11th, 2010 at 20:58
January 11th, 2010 at 20:59
@CraigMc: tru dat. wish you the best in your project. May hit the deadlines even before time.
January 11th, 2010 at 21:01
@Karl:
Thanks for that Karl, and your right of course. Good point and taken on board Bro! 
January 11th, 2010 at 21:02
What I can’t understand is, how can the club – after refinancing – have 500mil in the bank. Surely it would make better sense to use the 500 towards paying off the debt?
January 11th, 2010 at 21:03
@Jay Jay: Thanks for that mate! Appreciated!
January 11th, 2010 at 21:08
@Redrich: I think I my comment didn’t help either Redrich, mentioning the 12 year old jibe. So I will settle down too – Jay Jay and I are both United fanatics at the end of the day. But thank you Bro!
January 11th, 2010 at 21:09
@CraigMc: I believe you got married? I must’ve missed that post(s).
Belated congratulations!
(Been too busy lately with our newborn. My wife gave birth in December. It’s a bit hectic with a 3 week old, 1 year old and a 6 year old.)
January 11th, 2010 at 21:10
@Grognard: What’s worse is that there are quality players willing to come. As you’ve noted, our creatively bankrupt brand of futbol turns away quite a few, but the flip side of that coin is it elicits a messiah-complex in those looking to catalyze the next great renaissance. Although, I’d also venture to say the allure of playing under SAF is not as appealing these days.
But youre right, Fergie doesn’t have 60 to spend; he doesnt even have 15. An admission will never come due to suffering from shame and disbelief at having his power stripped to its skeleton. He entertains certain belief to maintain sanity and his lies aid in constructing those realities. But as you’ve also said, our lack of quality necesscitates our style of play. No where else to point fingers except those fecking Glazer twats.
January 11th, 2010 at 21:19
@owen: Wow those stats comparisons of Berba/Arshavin are amazing – good one Owen!
January 11th, 2010 at 21:19
@owen: this is a very frequent excuse here that this is my first post but i am following this for too long…
i recall someone attacked you and that was the excuse you gave, however i didnt say/use that, all i said was that at times it’s hard to post as frequent as one would like. my dear i’ve been posting on this blog dating 2007 so don’t think am an intruder.
And further still, does it mean if someone joined this blog a few weeks ago, he should give his view or disagree with a regular? RR should clarify that, SIR ammend that for the novices to come!
For fecks sake that’s like saying Ronaldo isn’t allowed to disagree with any of the senior team-mates like Raul or Casillas at the Bernebue. We are all human beings and are entitled to our opinions but the question is HOW DO WE EXPRESS THEM? If Craig disagress with me, why jump on the band wagon. Grognard can best answer that to you!!!!!!
January 11th, 2010 at 21:22
@Karl: Wow you are blessed mate with your Mrs and little brood of children! I am not married yet, but the Missus and I are living together and we have our little daughter now – kids make life sweeter, until they become teens that is
.
January 11th, 2010 at 21:25
Someone made a suggestion that if all the United fans were to contribute 50-100 pounds, then we could move for a ‘hostile’ takeover of the club. I am in full support of that idea. Anyone know how this can be started?
It’s no use we talk about “our debt this, and our debt that”. It’s NOT our debt. It’s the Glazer’s debt. When the debt are paid off, THE GLAZERS will make a profit. Not us. They did not take over the club because they loved Manchester United, not even because they loved football. They did it to make money. They have always maintained this this is ‘business’. The sad reality is that once the debt are paid off, they will most likely incur some more debt because they cannot be held liable. The club is. They would be stupid not to make use of the club’s assets. As much as I hate them, I have to admire their business sense in pulling this deal off in the first place. The people that sold them the majority shares are to be blamed.
Until a rich owner like Abramivich steps in, or we take back the club ourselves, we will remain fucked!
January 11th, 2010 at 21:28
@CraigMc: Oh, then maybe I misunderstood. I thought you got married. I already congratulated you on your little girl, but once again, congratulations. And, good luck. (I’ll be sending all 3 of my sons to come visit her one day
)
January 11th, 2010 at 21:31
@Jay Jay: That’s my whole point JayJay, we all agree/disagree with each other, because football is very emotive. Nevertheless, although we get very heavy with each other in many a heated debate, we usually lighten up when the dust settles, or when other bloggers on here tell us to leave it the fuck alone, as Karl, Owen, and RedRich have done. At the end of the day we are grown ups JayJay and we should be able to lighten up and get on with talking football. I think we are cool though now – right? I am anyway
January 11th, 2010 at 21:32
@Jay Jay: Leave it mate now.Its more than enough.Come to peace
January 11th, 2010 at 21:33
@Traverse: well put and concise only question is in articles ive read today they say that the glazers personal debt of (175m gbp Pay in kind notes at 14.25%)are not going to be paid with the bonds.
but this still puts united in a much better financial position than before and a much better position than chelsa and shitty who are operating at massive losses.
January 11th, 2010 at 21:33
@Karl: All the way to Newcastle then mate – because I am marooned in Geordieland since my GF is from this neck of the woods!
January 11th, 2010 at 21:34
Anyway T
evez has again scored.8 goals in last 7 matches.
January 11th, 2010 at 21:36
@Roge9: I will re-state my opinion. I don’t think that buying players is really the answer. As much as what I would love certain players at the club, I just know that they will flop because they will be expected to perform duties that comes unnatural to them. It seems to be a long-standing tradition at Old Trafford.
I believe the problem lies with the management mentality. We need a change in approach. (I also don’t buy the Fergie has done well with the squad he has so he is forgiven crap. HE assembled the squad. HE had the last say on who comes and who goes. If they now suck, HE is responsible. If this is not the case, then he should stop luying and needs to come out in the public and state that).
January 11th, 2010 at 21:45
Micak Richards has scored one of the best goal of the season.What a run.This player is really good
January 11th, 2010 at 21:47
@owen: Please don’t bring up his name on here. I still feel shit over us letting him go. I still believe that the team would have been much better with him in it.
January 11th, 2010 at 21:47
@CraigMc: am cool with Craig, by the time i wished success with yo project i had long cleared the air. am cool and have moved on!
January 11th, 2010 at 21:50
If City win this game they are on level points with us aren’t they
January 11th, 2010 at 21:54
@Johnsom33: or someone will give them 1.5 billion gbp(current value) for the club and their 1.1bn gbp debt will be a 400m gbp profit 647,040,000 US. and everyone lives happily ever after except all the people who committed suicide when they thought united were going down the toilet.
January 11th, 2010 at 21:54
@CraigMc: Not sure but they will go to 4th position.And they have almost won
January 11th, 2010 at 22:03
@gator: According to media reports, the 500 million we raise thru selling bonds will be used to pay off our present creditors, and some will reduce the Glazer bigger interest 14.5% repayments. So we will only be having to repay the 500 million back we got for bonds, and at a much lower interest rate like 4%. So Trav mate – it will not be anywhere near 1.1 billion, more half that, which is very manageable for us. Do stop giving me heart attack Traverse
.
January 11th, 2010 at 22:07
@Karl: everything ive red says it will. and that the glazers will now be able to start to pay off the 175m they owe at 14.25%.
all signs point to this being a verry good thing for united like;
“It also revealed it was entering into a new revolving credit facility to allow it to borrow an additional £75m, to be used for working capital and, probably, to help the club to continue buying players”
that should be plenty to get some flowing footie back.
January 11th, 2010 at 22:13
@owen: wow berba>arshaven will be a hard sell to some on this blog
but i can dig it.
January 11th, 2010 at 22:15
@owen: yea just went 3-0
January 11th, 2010 at 22:17
@gator:
Berbatov:
Is a great player
At the right club
At the wrong time
In the wrong position
January 11th, 2010 at 22:18
@owen: watching the man city blackburn match tevez has just scored again. berbatov is a waste of space. he does nothing and gives you the impression he does less than that. i still can’t understand why berba was valued more than tevez. statas are not important in football. you need to believe what you see. when i watch united with berba in the team i see a player who doesnt put in while rooney is working his socks off. with rooney every moment matters. i dont need to see statistics at the end of the game to tell me what i’ve seen. when i watch arsenal play arhavin always represents a threat with the ball. berba reprsents nothing. united must rid themselves of such aplayer.
January 11th, 2010 at 22:24
The revelation that the Ronaldo 81m kept united books “in the black” for fiscal year ‘09 brings the question; Was SAF asked to spend only very little till the bond issue had been finalized?
Im not sure but i do however think that any inability to spend on players is now alleviated.
If we see nothing more this season than a “separation of the wheat form the chaff” and we go on to let players go that aren’t going to cut it, and bring in competent(class) replacements.
then I think the season will not have been a waste as much as a transition period as we all expected anyway at the onset.
January 11th, 2010 at 22:25
@tom: I still remember when we played all four Ronaldo,Rooney,Berba and Tevez against Spurs in the 2nd half and we scored 5 goals in 45 minutes.That sadly that happened never again
January 11th, 2010 at 22:27
@Karl: I would love to see him in an attacking 3 as the cam with roon and owen/machida.
if we had hargo back and firing on all cylinders i think we could do it but his lack of mobility and lack of winning 50/50 balls would be a liability in mid field.
January 11th, 2010 at 22:45
@Scott: Why do you worry when fans express concern about our style? It’s not like I’ve called for Fergie’s head is it?
Let it be known that I was among the folks who was supportive of Ferguson back in 2005. But I saw enough reason whenever we played without Ruud and with Saha to feel optimistic. I was among the folks who was supportive of Ferguson at the beginning of this season right till October/November.
All I’m doing is calling as I see it. If we had a perfect defence and held on to the top spot it means we had that desire — and I would appreciate the side, even though I would have spotted some players are clearly not up for it. But it was obviously missing against Leeds. And missing against Fulham and Villa. Past seasons when we were down to bare bones we would still be dominant and not be so easily out played.
(As an aside, I think given the circumstances, our defence have done a stellar job, it’s our midfield and forward line, even when we’ve had a proper midfield.)
It’s not a question of feeling spoiled. It’s a feeling of frustration when someone actually expresses genuine concern they’re told off, as if they lack the intelligence to make a judgement call on the team.
January 11th, 2010 at 22:46
@tom: i understand what you are saying but to deny a stat like goals pr game is not logical.
Stats never tell the whole story but they give you a concrete way to evaluate players and compare certain aspects or a players game to others playing the same position.
just because you dont need a gps to get home from the pub doesnt mean the map is wrong.
January 11th, 2010 at 22:49
@Red Ranter: Yeah why should you or any other fan be put in the witness box and asked to give an explanation for stating how he sees things at the club at the moment. Mad isn’t it?
January 11th, 2010 at 22:55
@gator: i repeat stats are waste of time in football. i’ve sween matches were certain players hardly touch the ball only for mangers to label them as the best player on the ground. italian defensive midfielder comes to mind; albertini. compare the goals that arshavin has scored to berba’s goals. now tell me they’re of equal significance. arhavins are match changing goals. berba’s i cant remember when he last scored. come to think of it i doubt the stats produced. tevez has just scored again.
January 11th, 2010 at 23:05
@tom: I support bcoz stats are meant to mislead only.Berbatov can even dream only to score 4 goals in one match against Pools or to produce the strike which Arshavin produced against United.Moreover not a single Berba’s goal has come against top 10 sides in the League standing.
January 11th, 2010 at 23:27
@Redrich: Sorry mate but you lost me with that. What is First Allied Corp and what has it got to do with what I was saying? What am I missing here?
January 11th, 2010 at 23:31
@owen: Babratov is a forward while Arshavin is an attacking midfielder slash winger. There is no comparison. Arshavin is the all round better player and can be when needed a much more prolific scorer. Just ask Liverpool. Arshavin rarely plays the role of an inside forward. Most of the time he is attacking from the left side of the pitch like David Silva. I honestly don’t know what you are watching mate?
January 11th, 2010 at 23:42
@Red Ranter: WOW! I love the new and improved Red Ranter. Show no mercy and take no prisoners. Calling it as you see it. Isn’t that liberating mate? Well done. By the way, I agree with you, even though I know that won’t necessarily make your day.
January 11th, 2010 at 23:49
Carlos Tevez scores a hatrick? wtf….I dont mean to sound like a dick but I think hes a decent player when given consistent games. Thats 10 goals in 7 games. Fucking hell the cunt makes me mad. City are now 4th , 6 points off us with a game in hand. Please no…
January 11th, 2010 at 23:55
@Grognard: Let me be clear about something here and this goes to everyone. First of all I’ve always called it as I’ve seen it. My post was not a rant. It’s different that I come across as having taken a stand, when I don’t really believe in taking a stand just for the heck of it. I write what I believe in and I’ve always done that.
Nothing is ‘liberating’ in particular. I write because I love writing. Things have been the same for me after having written most of my articles. They all give me pleasure.
I thought we played rubbish against Leeds and Burnley and Fulham, and it’s reflected in my writing.
If we play well I’ll give the side its due.
PS: The few pieces I’ve felt liberated after writing was the long one I did on Ronaldo. (When I took a stand and no one noticed.)
January 12th, 2010 at 0:01
It’s just that since we’ve agreed on the rare occasion that it seems like I’ve taken a stand for the first time. when I’ve actually been off the fence more often than I get credit for.
January 12th, 2010 at 0:22
@owen: i love you!
January 12th, 2010 at 0:30
Re the Arshavin Berbatov comparison.
Firstly, Berbatov is a striker bought to score goals and his goal return is still disappointing especially as he rarely provides the goods in the big games. Like someone said most of his goals are against bottom feeder teams.
Secondly, Berbatov is invisble for much of the game. Arshavin brings a much larger contribution to the team.
Thirdly Arshavin was around £10-15 million pounds cheaper!
I certainly know who I would rather have in my side!
Berbatov has broken his leg so I doubt he will have much of an impact this season, and if we really are having a shake up at the end of the season, Fergie may well cut his losses while Berbatov is still at a sellable age and reinvest the proceeds into a more conventional striker to partner Rooney.
Sometimes players just cannot live up to the pressure of being at a big club and prefer to be a big fish in a small pond. Berbatov has the skills no doubt, but he is much too shy and retiring on the pitch, and doesn’t have the confidence to grab the game by the scruff of his neck like Cantona did. His lack of physicality and lack of pace disadvantages him in a team that still does best playing fast tempo football.
I do have a good feeling about this debt refinancing. Even if our debt is still large, it has been stabilised and that could mean some additional funds. Obviously the Ronaldo transfer stabilised the books during a difficult business year with a global recession. Im sure next summer normal service will resume and we will have £20-30 million or so for transfers. Of course it is not enough, as really we need at least four or five good players to properly replace Scholes and Giggs, provide a partner for Rooney, an extra defender if Vidic leaves, a goalkeeper to replace EVDS and ideally another midfielder for added depth. But raise an extra £20-30 million from sales and we can at least start the rebuilding process.
January 12th, 2010 at 0:35
It’s all happening here and its a shame that it took a plunge in our performance levels to witness some of the most interesting discussions here since a long time.
(Kudos to Eddy’s rant of the previous thread too!)
Anyway, I wish I could join in, but I’m a bit taken offline atm. But keep on ranting, guys!
January 12th, 2010 at 0:42
Guess who?!
I think this club is in deep shit. I`ve got no problems admitting that. However, I am still in the belief that there is a reason to it, other than the Glazers. We have some truly shit players, yes. Some players who don`t even deserve to play football anymore! Scholes, Neville and Park amongst others. But we do have some possible world class players in this side. The reason I say “possible” is because it all matters on one simple thing. And that thing is a combo of luck and consistency.
Rooney is a world class player on his day, one of the best in the world. But he can also be one of the worst in the League when he is not on his game, both things proven many times this season. Very incosistently world class.
Fletcher is a brilliant player, he is truly world class. But as long as he lacks the necesarry quality around him he will not help this side a lot. A brilliant CM partner for him would do wonders to this side. Without any help, he can be useless…
Vidic we all know about, but he can be very shaky. I’ve got the impression that he is a confidence player, when he is on form he is unbeatable, when not he can be shit. For such a rough man, he is really shaky…
Rafael and Evans. Potentially world class players with a big future ahead of them, but they are still not completely ready.
And Evra? Well, best left back in the world with a huge Manchester United heart. All I’ve got to say about him…
Then there are two players whose future is very much in question. If they can play their game they will be a major supply to this team. Those guys will mean a lot to the future of Manchester United. Those players are Owen Hargreaves and Mame Biram Diouf! Hargreaves is a brilliant player, but he has missed so much football these last years that he will have a hard time, maybe even impossible for him to get back. However, IF he can manage to get back, never fully fit but even %70 we would have a truly world class midfielder in this side. And because I’ve learnt so much from United the last decade or so, I have just one thing to say concerning Hargreaves. BELIEVE!
Then there is Mame Biram. For me he has all the qualities to become a truly magnificent striker for this club. He is fast, skillful, powerful, hungry and a great finisher. I has all the qualities needed to become a world class striker for us next to Rooney. Even though he didn’t prove much against Brum I still have faith in because I said even before the game that he would need 4-6 games to get into his mood and know the club. Now that Berba is out injured, he may just have his chance to prove me right…
So… I’m not gonna talk Football Manager here but I still feel we need to make some changes. VDS, Scholes and Neville should retire. I think we should sell Foster, Gibson and maybe also Anderson. Nani should be given a fair chance, but please ship Park off to the closest Sushi resturant in town! Berbatov should leave, for the club and his own sake. He is nothing to this club and doesn’t make it look like it means anything to him either. With the money we could collect by those sales I could see us spending a few quid on these players:
Neuer/Aknifeev
David Silva
Shouldn’t cost more than a combined £40 million. Our team would look something like this then:
Neuer/Akinfeev
Rafael Evans Vidic Evra
Valencia Hargreaves Silva Nani
Diouf Rooney
It`s not the best United side you are gonna see in your lifetime, but it’s certanly better than what we are experiencing now. It will not be impossible to make enough money to buy those players, and it could turn out to be a huge, great investement. It will give this club a little more time to evolve it’s financial status and our teams strength. This is all fantasy football of course, but every reality starts off with a dream…
January 12th, 2010 at 0:44
@colver: agreed i think we can expect wholesale changes to the team unless the end of the season sees breakout performances from a few that look set to be sold.
Fergi has said of Diouf “he could save us alot of money” presumably meaning we are set to spend(proly alot) unless he and others step up considerably.
January 12th, 2010 at 0:44
@Red Ranter: I think you get misrepresented RR because as a good writer you often give the pros and cons – the fors and againsts of the subject being discussed. As a writer, who wants to keep integrity on a Website BLOG, any type of blog, it is expected that the writer doesn’t just impose his own viewpoint on the matter, but also the opposite side of things. So it doesn’t come out clearly what the writers personal viewpoint actually is. I understand that, and it takes the reader to suss out which side of the arguement a writers opinion falls on, which isn’t at all easy if the writer does his job properly. It can be seen though by those who take trouble to read between the lines. However, on articles like the one of this thread, your viewpoint on this particular subject matter was being purposely expressed.
A good writer it is hard to tell which side of the fence his opinion falls, because he is able to depersonalise an article to just get both sides of an arguement over. So when you write your personal view as you did today, it looks as though you are coming off some fence, but in fact if all your writing is taken into account you weren’t on a fence in most of them. O Lord, am I making any sense at all 
January 12th, 2010 at 0:46
One of the most irritating part of the Glazer take over is the misconception that we are in debt because we spent loads of money on players and bought all our title.
We EARNED all the money we spent before 2005 from winning trophies in the 90’s and marketing ourselves brilliantly, not the other way around.
Manchester United were the richest club in the world before the Glazers took over using borrowed money they then buried us under it. Unfortunately I see no end game on their part.
January 12th, 2010 at 0:47
@EduardoDaVinci4: Eddy, why have you changed your username?
January 12th, 2010 at 0:52
@Red Ranter: Because I wanna forget about what happend this weekend. I wanna have a new start. I felt reborn!
Forgive me if it will confuse many of you are such, but there is only on Eddy on this site and it deserves something with a classic, creative, cultural cling on it? EduardoDaVinci, sounds good doesn’t it? 
January 12th, 2010 at 0:54
@Red Ranter: By the way mate read some of you comebacks to Scott up there on this post and I gotta say you earned a lot more of my repsect there. Way to go boss, really well said!
Gotta love the discussions on this blog, if anything makes me love being a United fan even more! 
January 12th, 2010 at 1:00
@CraigMc: Actually he expressed his views very well. He didn’t need to mention the pro’s and con’s because he was in a discussion where one part took care of the pro part and one part took care of the con part. Repeating what the other person is saying in a debate is not necesarilly clever or useful, because his views should be his used to counter the other counterpart.
Saying things how he believes them to be also makes his writing more subjective, and puts us more into the mind of the writer. When RedRanter writes like he did previously up there he gives us a passage to his mind and his views. I think that’s a good thing, makes us all understand him more! 
Usually he writes an objective text with a slight twist of an omniscient point of view written “between the lines”, but when we see an all subjective text by him it’s easier to follow and understand how the other person is feeling. So kodus to you Red! 
January 12th, 2010 at 1:03
@NicoQB: Thanks, I felt I really needed to get that out…
And to all other guys who liked it, I read your comments but I sadly don’t have enough time to respond to them all. Just in summary, No, I will never consider leaving this club again! It’s in my veins, mind and soul, and I can’t get it out of me even if I tried. United are my club, my heart, my destiny! And long may that continue….
January 12th, 2010 at 1:09
@Grognard: It’s Malcolm Glazers holding company in US. Couldn’t find his person EM address but they have a contact page if you felt like baiting him a little (or a lot)
January 12th, 2010 at 1:20
@Traverse: I am really confused now Trav, because I just read the new daily mail report on our finance, which says that THE CLUBS interest on its loans will NOT change at all. But the GLAZERS will have more fluid finance TO PAY THEMSELVES healthy dividends, and WIPE OUT their hedging funds dents and the 14.9 interest that is crippling them/us! The bastard leeches, so all this is being done for the Glazers benefit, not the clubs! I am wondering why the fuck somebody from the club is not standing up before the fans and making absolutely clear to us what all of this means!
January 12th, 2010 at 1:21
@Red Ranter: It’s a gradual metamorphosis, we should expect the finished butterfly by the start of the 11/12 season.
Sorry Eddy, couldn’t resist.
January 12th, 2010 at 1:42
@Red Ranter: “I’ve always called it as I’ve seen it”
I agree mate, you unlike your counterpart at ROM, have always been honest with yourself, and hence with us too. Kudo’s to you!!
However, you’ve got to start seeing things a little sooner!!
January 12th, 2010 at 2:16
@CraigMc: Worst case scenario is that the Glazers default on their debts, then we become the property of the creditors!!
Not good because of the unstable nature of whom ever they owe money to. They could try to dissolve the assets, (ie. sell all the players, sell OT, sell Carrington etc., etc.) but this is unlikely because the club and its “brand” as a whole is worth much, much more than the sum of it’s individual parts. I would expect them to find new investment or outright ownership before it comes to that.
January 12th, 2010 at 2:37
@Karl: Buying players is never an absolute solution, but it must be part of any solution forthcoming. I’ll concede on your points about management and squad composition, but any allusion to this squad having more potential than presently manifests, to me, fails. We have depth in numbers and versatile players, but the absence of quality is alarming, and I believe any manager who’d attempt playing a fluid, expressive game with this crop would succumb to frustration almost immediately. Sometimes you make errors then find yourself in positions where you cannot correct these. This is why i say for what he has, be it his fault or not, he’s doing the best he can.
January 12th, 2010 at 2:46
To all those even slightly interested in the Glazers handling of things, I suggest you read the first couple of paragraphs of this article.
Are you cringing yet??
January 12th, 2010 at 2:53
@CraigMc: Well I think the benefit, and I use the term loosely, is it would allow them to pay off the toxic Paymennt in kind loans, which is a personal debt, more quickly. Correct me if im wrong, but under terms of their loans, the senior debt, stading at around 600 million pounds, secured against the clubs assests and projected revenue would need to be settled before they could begin paying off the 175 million pound PIK loans that carry horrific interest at 15%. By maturation in 2017, this would be nearly impossible to pay off. A bond issue, if i’m not mistaken, is a form of debt restructuring with less rigid rules than imposed by the current terms. Being able to pay themselves large dividends provides an avenue to immediately pay off thess toxic Paymenet in kind loans that are bound to kill us, which eventually means reinvesting earnings into the club.
January 12th, 2010 at 3:48
If we have restructured our debt even if the terms are still not particularly favourable, it does give us some breathing space until credit conditions in the world improve. Presumabely the Glazers wanted to post a profit this year to make it easier to secure refinancing, hence why we barely touched the Ronaldo money. Hopefully now with our debt refinanced some additional funds can be freed up.
Eddi I hope you are right about Diouf. I’ve been disappointed with Welbeck and Macheda and I was upset when Rossi failed to break through. Strikers are overpriced and if we can get one from within our own ranks it would be a big benefit. Rooney is really suffering leading the line week in and week out and it is only a matter of time before he gets injured and then we are royally screwed.
If Hargreaves returns to his best that would help immensely. But I do not have high hopes of that happening. Once a player has a chronic injury it is very difficult to make a full recovery. The best that can be hoped for is we are able to manage his condition so he can be a squad player. What we really need is someone who has no injury problems, has a lot of class, offers a goal threat and can play alongside Fletcher.
Id love a clear out. This team has been reliant on Ronaldo (and now Rooney) for too long, and quite frankly the majority of our youngsters are just not good enough. We need some up-and-coming stars in the 22-25 bracket who can give us a good five years service and blossom at United.
We need to change the style we play because the 4-5-1/4-3-3 experiment that began under Quieroz relied very heavily on the talents of Ronaldo and without him it is just depressing to watch.
Like many English players Rooney plays best in a 4-4-2 and as Rooney is the best attacking player we have, we should try and bring the best out of him. But for 4-4-2 to work you need a target man, wingers with an end product and midfielders capable of getting forward and scoring goals. I don’t think creativity is that essential. If Rooney is played a bit deeper he can offer that creativity. After all we did ok in the 90s with Keane and Ince in the middle. The main thing is making sure we have an aerial threat and wingers who can cross. In European away games we can always revert back to 4-5-1 but I think for the most part for this team to score goals we need to recreate an effective 4-4-2.
January 12th, 2010 at 4:27
A couple of scathing articles on the Glazer’s sent to me by MUST. Read em and weep mates, read em and weep. With all the media attention out there it looks like the shit is definitely about to hit the proverbial fan.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/jan/12/manchester-united-glazers-debt
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1242452/We-rid-Glazer-leeches–Manchester-United-fans-lash-debt-ridden-owners-unveil-500m-bonds-scheme.html
http://www.joinmust.org/forum/showthread.php?p=308916
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article6984255.ece
January 12th, 2010 at 4:29
@colver: Mate, Rooney is better in a 2 man offense because he’s simply not big or powerful enough to operate on his own.
He’s not your typical striker and is used best in a hybrid setup where he can mop up in and around the area.
What he does have is drive and tenacity, but it’s not enough for him working solo.
He’s now operating in an exclusive fashion, way out of his comfort zone, in an effort to make up for the deficiencies of his strike partners (even if he has one) and it’s simply overpowering his capabilities!!
This is the reasons I believe Berbatov was a poor suitor for him – he doesn’t need finesse, he needs someone to take away the physical burden from his game!
January 12th, 2010 at 4:42
@Red Ranter: Jeez mate, no need to be so touchy. To me and to others it looks different so despite what you may think, perhaps you should give those who read your posts and rants and let them also be a judge of your work. I enjoyed your latest rant because for me it was a rant. You showed passion, took a stand and defended it. Whether it is red apples or green apples is not important. All I know is you looked to have taken a position on something rather than just serve us with info for a change. Learn to take a compliment without being so defensive.
January 12th, 2010 at 4:46
@Red Ranter: That is up to the readers to decide mate. I for one have the world of respect for you but have always felt you were more of a fence sitter. Sorry but I am just being honest. I am not trying to offend you or insult you but that is just the way I have seen the majority of your contributions. If I am wrong, so be it, I will accept that. I think if you took a poll of our members, you would find more that think you have sat on the fence than those who agree with you. Again, I could be wrong but I don’t think I am.
January 12th, 2010 at 4:46
@Grognard: All this after they have striven so hard to spin a web of lies to cover it all up.
Water generally finds it’s own level, regardless of the levees you put in place.
What a shame that the United I once respected is now the laughing stock of the league. Crippled by debt and indecision, our future looking bleak , we still try to make believe that all is well.
Fuck!!
January 12th, 2010 at 5:00
@Grognard: You be harsh here, Grogster!!
If RR says he doesn’t consider himself a fence-sitter, he probably isn’t.
He has much more peripheral vision than you and I put together and it just takes longer for him to assimilate the addition information that he sees!
Gloating in his face will not help your cause!!
January 12th, 2010 at 5:25
@Grognard: All I said is I write what I believed in. You made it look like all this while I wasn’t writing with conviction. And only today I woke up from some sort of slumber.
I was just letting you know that as far as when I write, I give it careful thought and they are a reflection of what goes on in my head.
January 12th, 2010 at 5:37
@Redrich: Ah I thought so but I wasn’t sure. Thanks Red.
January 12th, 2010 at 5:43
@Redrich: That’s a great point. RR is very fair and does not like to jump the gun on stuff but he has also come around on a few things way too late in my opinion. For example, the fact that I am always right.
January 12th, 2010 at 5:46
@Roge9: Buying players is an absolute key because United need to maintain their position in the games world order for them to be able to make money. Unless the team improves their play and they are in a position to win multiple trophies, their market share will fall and the lack of interest will be felt from their many worldwide affiliations. The revenue stream will decrease unless the product is top quality. In order for the product to be top quality, money needs to be diverted towards building up this diminishing product so that it can then go out and maximize it’s potential on the field and thus increase revenues.
January 12th, 2010 at 5:49
@Redrich: MY GOD!
It’s even worse than I feared. Lynch those mofos right now. Unbelievable. Their situation is even more dire than I expected.
January 12th, 2010 at 5:55
@Redrich: I am in no way gloating in his face mate. If that’s the way it comes across I say to you now, that is not my intention. I more than most am very aware of RR’s considerable contributions and his mindset but I was just getting a little bored with some of his pablum infested posts of late that did not offer much meat or substance and seemed more like a news release sent across the wire by United Press International. I want less repeat of the news and more of his personal and heartfelt opinions on things. And the other day he delivered. Notice how I wasn’t the only one who noticed that thread and commented on it’s change in tone and direction. I like it when he writes more form the heart because he is a good writer who is capable of writing with a combination of intelligence and passion. I do not just want facts and intelligence. I can get that on the wire anytime I want. This is a rant blog and I for one believe the moderator of a rant blog should be the king ranter. Just how I see things. Doesn’t mean it has to be that way.
January 12th, 2010 at 6:00
@Red Ranter: You may not have been in a slumber mate but at least to me it looked like you were. I can only be honest with you and tell you how I feel whether you see me as wrong or right. Problem when someone gives something careful thought before writing is it usually neuters your intentions and true feelings and all of a sudden the logical par of the brain starts censoring your own thoughts and then everything comes out very bland and very pc. I love logic, but like I said the other day, on a football rant blog, logic is rather overrated and certainly not a great ally to passion. When one is able to use both together like you did in your last thread, then you reach utopia. And as you must have noticed, the members spoke out because it was not just I who noticed it. Take the hint and look at it as a good thing.
January 12th, 2010 at 6:31
Once again let me clarify the thing about the blog name: ‘Red Rants’ sounded cool when I was looking for a suitable site title. The main articles were meant to consist of a mix of reportage, opinions, match previews reports etc. and occasional rants.
The site name was, and is, a misnomer for the main blog articles. And it was a conscious decision in an effort to promote responsible writing, with exceptions along the way.
But when you consider the comments which make up the meat of the site, the name of the site gets its true meaning. If you want to read rants you go to the comments section. Which is why everything goes in the comments as long as it’s not personal.
January 12th, 2010 at 7:23
@Red Ranter: Fair enough mate. I have always seen you as more of a reporter of the news as opposed to someone with a strong view. You’ve made your position clear and I am fine with it. But I’d be lying if I said I didn’t like your last rant a lot more than the ones that are just reporting the facts as opposed to taking a stand. Just more entertaining and more stimulating.
January 12th, 2010 at 7:39
@Red Ranter: I loved this article because it was somewhat different from your ‘normal’ articles. This does not mean that your other articles does not have passion. You are supposed to have a neutral view on things (otherwise you give people like myself license to kill). I also know that all your posts are well though out. This post is just different because I think Craig explains it brilliantly in post 141.
I know that this is an exception, so maybe just take the compliment and no need to explain yourself.
For what it’s worth, I had a lot of respect for you before this post. I have a lot of respect for you now also after this post. I personally feel that this is the best United site and that you are an amazing moderator. That is why I don’t even bother with the other rant sites anymore. Have not for a very long time.
So, screw what anyone has to say. You have not lost one once of credibility.
January 12th, 2010 at 7:41
@Red Ranter: In some Western cultures, there is a believe that “you grown into your name”.
In Africa, we believe that “you are your name”.
Whatever the reasons for the sitename, Red Rants it is!
January 12th, 2010 at 7:48
@owen: Berbatov Vs Arshavin: First of all Berbatov is a striker and Arshavin is a winger/attacking midfielder. Berbatov came @ 30m whereas Arshavin came @13-14m. Still Arshavin is a better player than Berbatov in all respects.
After RVP’s injury Arshavin is sacrificing his natural game and working as a striker or half striker. His performance in Liverpool game last season can never be expected from Berba.
Arshavin looks to be more commited than Berbatov. And also Berbatov is injured and older than Arshavin, So you can never expect miracles from him that Arshavin does.
Stats are always misguiding! Same number of goals and assists can never help you to make sure that both are similar players.
January 12th, 2010 at 8:11
@Grognard: Glad I cleared it up. Cheers for the compliment though.
@Karl: Cheers mate.
January 12th, 2010 at 9:18
@tom: Why dont you assess Tevez’s form against Rooney’s?Why is it that whenever another striker performs well you look at Berba and not Rooney? It is a fact that Rooney has scored 2 more goals than Tevez and 4 of those are penalties and it is also a fact that Rooney is our number one striker and Berba, or what ever striker is on is to support Rooney.
This is not to excuse Berbatov or any other player for that matter but to point out that it is not always good to look at one party and ignore the other.The truth is Tevez was performing here, and i thought he was better than Rooney in all aspects, the manager thought otherwise and let him go end of. If he is doing well, it is with another team not United and if it is for comparison purposes, weigh him against both strikers not just Berbatov.
January 12th, 2010 at 9:24
@Ab Kr: Arshavin is actually a number 10, an how do you measure commitment to come to a conclusion that this player is more committed than the other?
The price tag should not be an issue for the player, maybe for the club and its negotiators.
January 12th, 2010 at 9:38
@Red Ranter: Like Andy Gray more often then not during his commentary says
“Take a bow RR, take a bow”
I should be very honest that I am not a person who read all the articles here. I mean nothing against you but I always end up reading the comments and fights here on some topic and not the headline articles. I should honestly accept that it has nothing to do with you are not good at it or something like that… I mean you do your job of moderator pretty well like others have pointed out already and be objective while calling things as you see. But, like Grogy said it always gives me an impression that you are seating on the fence.
I am an Financial Analysts by profession working for the bank and my reporting boss always tells me one thing that don’t be a reporter, be an analysts and analyze the things the way you see it rather than just reporting it others.
I am sorry to say I always found the headline articles as just reports, may be because the role you are playing here, but today the way you put everything in perspective, was awesome… It was a great read and I thoroughly enjoyed it… Not to AGREED it 100%…
January 12th, 2010 at 9:42
@donibrasco: Absolutely, what ever people say about Berba but at end of the day they will bring the price tag in the picture. But, they comfortably forget the fact that it is not players fault that he has been priced at ‘n’ mn pounds. Just that we have failed miserably while dealing like we normally do…
January 12th, 2010 at 9:44
@donibrasco: and @Ab Kr: One can’t forget the difference in the way both teams play. I mean on one side you have Arsenal in best shape in last four years top scoring the league already scoring more than 50 goals in all competition and on the other hand we have Man UTD, do I say more about it????
January 12th, 2010 at 9:52
@donibrasco: One can easily see the difference in the efforts put in by Arshavin and the feeorts that Berbatov puts in. You may often see Arshavin making long sprints and scoring goals. Also the player should justify his transfer fee…..
January 12th, 2010 at 9:56
@Onkar: Arsenal in best shape for the last four years? But United have won last three leagues.
Transfer amount is certainly not players fault, but everyone should justify his transfer fee.
January 12th, 2010 at 10:00
@Ab Kr:
I meant “Out of last four and year, this year Arsenal looks in best shape”… Little confusion while typing…
January 12th, 2010 at 10:04
@Ab Kr: I don’t believe in the theory of Players should Justify his transfer fees at all. I mean Players are not the one who seat across the table and decide on the price for transfer representative of respective clubs. Player will have a say only in terms of his personal payments like salaries and all. So, he is not responsible for what price he is traded.
Secondly, by that theory any and every player who has been on the free transfer doesn’t need to do anything RIGHT??? Because he is free and does not have any price that he needs to justify, RIGHT???
January 12th, 2010 at 10:06
@Shami: You are close mate but not there… I am working with PSU BANK in management grade but certainly not SBI…
January 12th, 2010 at 10:06
@Onkar: Yes.. Arsenal in good shape this season………. but like always they will not win anything even this time. because they lack depth in their squad. RVP’s injury has exposed it.
January 12th, 2010 at 10:12
It is not just about justifying a fee, it is about the performance on the pitch, Scholes did not cost us a penny and was poor against Brum, and Berba was awful against Leeds and cost £30m, it is about what he do when they wear the shirt.
January 12th, 2010 at 10:12
@Onkar: Free transfer doesn’t mean that the player is not required to perform. After all they are also getting high salaries.
Every player must show their worth. We are not Chelsea that we can sign players like Shevachenko for such heavy fee.
January 12th, 2010 at 10:25
@Stephen: I agree on this part.. Fine you need to perform to the highest capacity of what you got irrespective of what you have cost your team. But, the important point here for me is ‘irrespective of the cost’. I mean, I get fed up when people come with the statements like he 30mn striker and all, I know he is not prolific for us, but then talk about his deficiencies rather than talking about the price is what would advocate. As performance or lack of it is in his hands but price tag is not….
January 12th, 2010 at 10:27
Anyone here has the SOFT COPY of the prospectus published and filed by MUFC for its BOND issue. Please share it or link for that matter if anyone has it…..
January 12th, 2010 at 10:31
Check the link pasted it gives some perspective of how the whole MAN UTD works including the Red Football and its holding….
It is taken from the Prospective…..
http://av.r.ftdata.co.uk/files/2010/01/Man-Utd-corporate-structure-and-financing.jpg
Also the article….
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2010/01/11/123486/football-finance-man-utd-edition/
January 12th, 2010 at 10:36
@Onkar: I can understand both sides, it is not the players fault his asking price but for £30m we could have got Fabiano who would have scored goals and another midfield player and we now would be in better shape for it, so to some degree the fee is important especially when we have little money.
January 12th, 2010 at 10:53
@Stephen: Agreed…
January 12th, 2010 at 11:02
@Stephen: But Fabiano is also not a surely that he will score goals here.Look at Forlan .A complete flop here but scored tons in Spain.Berba was a proven scorer in EPL but even he is struggling .One reason and the major factor is lack of midield.Also he is not fit.He is playing as a playmaker here .So it is really harsh to expect tons of goals and to also create the chances.This is the duty of Carrick and Andy.Last season Berba had the 2nd number of highest assists.
It is also harsh to judge his price tag.Yes he was expensive.But so were Nani and Andy who had done nothing.But no one discusses their price
January 12th, 2010 at 11:16
According to TheSun
Manchester United could cash in on star striker Wayne Rooney to help ease the club’s debts. Spanish giants Real Madrid and Barcelona are considering £70m bids for the England international.
January 12th, 2010 at 11:17
@owen: I am starting to like you now… I know you may not be Pro Berba like I am, but at least you are making blind opposition…
January 12th, 2010 at 11:20
@owen: First statement of your comment matters the most…
‘ACCORDING TO SUN’
You are smart enough to assess….
January 12th, 2010 at 11:40
As this is going in as a hot topic for last few days I was wondering about couple of things which may be able to put all these talks of Debt and trouble to rest (may be forever).
Naming Rights: I know it is not a new thing as this solution has been churned by media in past. But, Don’t you all think if we can a player for GBP80mn in today’s market. Then I think we could get 1.5x at least for selling the naming rights from OT to say XYZ… It will give us a one shot premium cashflow which may turn handy to finish of large chunk of Senior Debts or almost all the high value PIKs.
Second option which I am not sure has been discussed in media or not is selling either OT or Carrignton if you get good value for money and leasing it back at a competitive rate for long period under, typical long term operative lease. And if we lease it back in Financial lease format then nothing like it as it will mean that at the end of the lease tenure the title will be transferred back to Man UTD. If it is feasible then I am sure it will help us pay at least 2/3 of the total 700mn debts.
At the end of the day we all know that Man UTD as a whole (i.e. whole BRAND) is for more valuable then Sum of its Parts (i.e. SOTP value). And the that is why problem that we are facing is what we call BRAND is an intangible asset which can’t be valued properly as it is not a real asset. So if we are hit a slump in performance sooner then the value of that real assets may not diminish at all but the value of brand as whole (due intangible component) will be screwed up totally…
That is why I genuinely feel that quicker we react better it will be… Or else ‘GOD ONLY KNOWS’ what future holds…
January 12th, 2010 at 11:40
@owen: I agree, but I have banged on about their price tag a lot, thanks a lot Carlos.
January 12th, 2010 at 11:49
@Onkar:
but at least you are NOT* making blind opposition…….
January 12th, 2010 at 12:55
Arshavin vs Berbatov:
There is no doubt that Arshavin is proving much better value for money, noone is denying that.
But once again one has to take into consideration the fact that players themselves can do little about their transfer tag. For instance Spurs have been known to drive a hard bargain, a bit like Lyon, especially when United come sniffing round for a player.
Now about the statitics:
Yes, they both have equivalent stats, and one is a striker and the other is an attacking midfielder.
But one plays in a United side with the worst midfield since the dark days of Djembax2 and O’shea in midfield. (read: appalling service to strikers)
The other plays with Cesc Fabregas in the form of his life and Robin Van Persie.
Arshavin has also started four more games in the Premier League than Berbatov, so you’d be inclined to think that if it was the other way round Berbatov would have slightly better stats.
Sure enough, even I, a devout Berba supporter, has been disappointed at times with his lack of grit. But it frustrates me to no end to see him always being picked as the no.1 scapegoat for when our side does not plays well when he’s been far from our most pressing problem this season.
January 12th, 2010 at 13:13
@NicoQB: More over Arshavin is playing as striker only now a days.And he gets a lot of good balls in the danger zone.How many Berba gets in one match??At arsenal,Fabregas is there to provide him the ball and here it is PARK.Can you compare the difference between these two pass providers???It is unimaginable.
The main difference between Arshavin and Berbatov is Mr Wenger And Old Fergusion.Wenger knows how to use him where as Fergusion has no idea how to play him .Not only Berba but almost everyone like Andy and Fletcher till last seasons.
January 12th, 2010 at 13:19
@NicoQB: That is precisely I think. I am one the hard Berba Fan, and I really feel sad when for any of our failure when people are searching for the Scapegoat.. Who is on the top of there list… Its BERBA…
See the point is he is not performing the way he should have, or the we would have expected but the point is he is not the only problem. People just can’t understand that MF is the Core area of problem. Secodly, people always seem to have a problem about his finishing, I accept that his finishing recently is not up to the task but, then even Mickey Owen has missed quite a few seaters this season and what about Rooney he has missed seaters against Leeds as well as Brums but other than Craig no one seems to go after him. Just imagine if Berba would have missed those. Everyone here should have started calling for his head by now.
And all this talk about Arshawin V/s Berba is just ridiculous. I mean, how can you even compare the MF they are playing with. Common guys Arsenal are the attack-wise most potent team in England at this stage. So if you want to check the stats then try and check the share of Arshawin in Arsenal’s total to that of Berba’s in Man UTD. To add to that when I use to see Berba playing for Spurs I used to feel that he would fit in well. As he use play in same sort of team, attacking, 4-4-2 along side Keane who more or less plays same way like Rooney does. But then what he got, NO 4-4-2 anymore, shit MF in terms of creativity and inconsistant Rooney. Result as we all see….
Here I ma not at all trying to justify lack of performance. But, all I am trying to say is he is great player in my eyes but definitely not World Class. He can’t take the game by the scruff of the neck on his own (even though I feel he has quality to do so but not the required character), lets face it first he is no Cantona nor he can be Ronaldo who can do everything on his own really cover the cracks in the team. He needs other people to there job like any other good player needs it. The problem here is people easily overlook all these things and feel that he in reason for the mess that we are in. But in reality he is hardly a reason for this mess. Treat him fairly, that’s all I want as a genuine Berba Fan, I think Craig would understand my feelings as he is demanding the same thing for while for his NANI….
January 12th, 2010 at 13:20
@owen: Wenger knows more than Fergie does he then?? What has Wenger won in five years compared to us??? In the past two season we have won the league twice, Champions league and the league cup.
Berba simply is out of is depth at United, we are too big for him he is a good player but has not settled and it would be best now for both parties if we parted company, like the guy but he hasn’t done it, or done it on a consistant basis.
January 12th, 2010 at 13:20
@owen: Bang ON target…
January 12th, 2010 at 13:22
@Stephen:
Unfortunately I have to agree with this bro…..
January 12th, 2010 at 13:26
@Stephen: See and i think what Owen said is right bro.. He never said in overall terms bro… He made it case specific isn’t it??? He clearly meant that Wenger knows how to utilize the Skills of Arshawin effectively which Ferguson is not sure about Berba… I think this is not what he said, this is what Ferguson himself said previously…
So I don’t think you need to jump on the gun bro… We all agree that the achievements of Fergie are unparalleled…
@owen: Sorry bro… For jumping in your conversation but… The topic of discussion is Berba.. So I have to get on ammunition…
January 12th, 2010 at 13:31
@Onkar: Well then bringing in the managers was no point then and he did say “sack Fergie” in the last thread, sorrry Owen not getting in your face, hence my retort.
Asharvin and Berba are also totally different players and characters, Berba is ore introverted and Asharvin in a more forthright person so they are chalk and cheese.
January 12th, 2010 at 13:38
@Stephen: As far as Sack Fergie thing goes I have to agree that this is the most ridiculous thing people are talking at this point in time… If not anything we have to wait till summer to see what happens then…
But, still I will put my point straight that Fergie himself said that he was unsure of how to utilize the skill sets of Berba.. For me, I can attribute that as the BIGGEST reason for Berba failure… More like Veron case I may say….
As far as Character of these players goes I have to agree with on that.
January 12th, 2010 at 13:40
@Onkar: He is a forward, how hard is it to utilize him??? Veron was misused but he also struggled with the pace of the Prem and struggled living in the UK and he also failed at Chelsea to back up my point.
January 12th, 2010 at 13:41
The problem is we have great expectations from Berbatov (may be because of the spending or may be due to his previous performances during Spurs career). We are not so worried about Owen’s performances, why? (because of his free transfer). Both of these were expected to give better results, but now everyone is complaining about Berba…
January 12th, 2010 at 13:42
@Onkar: To blame Fergie also for Berba is easy, but lets be real his performaces have been poor, work rate minamal and he looks out of sorts with himself hence he is struggling to settle in at a big club, Berba has to take the blame also.
January 12th, 2010 at 13:46
@Stephen: I have said it time and time again that he has disappointed me as well. But the point is the people make him scapegoat for everything is unwarranted that is all… He is not the only person responsible for his personal as well as team’s failure…
January 12th, 2010 at 13:48
@Stephen: Fergie turned a class palyer like Berba into a flop where as Wenger has turned Van Persie into world class.Wenger has used Song so well that he is one of the better players in the League this season Where as Anderson has been converted into CDM.No one knew Vermalaen but he is the purchase of the season where one of our big purchase has not started a game for more than 1 year.
So Fergie is definately not as good technically as Wenger but yes he is a good motivator and know how to win.I was joking then when i said sack Fergie.But you believe it or not,Definately questions have been asked.
January 12th, 2010 at 13:51
@Onkar: He certainly isn’t soley to blame, and the manager has to take a percentage of the blame too regardless of his lack of funds to spend he over spent on Berba, £30m looks high, £18.6m on Anderson, £17m on Nani, £8m on Tosic and £18m on Carrick looks very high but he is the only person in my eyed who can get what we are getting out of the plyers currently.
Berba is an easy scapegoat but he has not stepped up to the plate, being a gifted footabller at a club like United is not enough, you have to be mentally right also for me Berba mentally isn’t strong enough for United as he still seems to be in awe of the place.
January 12th, 2010 at 14:09
@Stephen: I don’t agree. His performances could certaily be better, but other than the odd games, they have been far from poor.
Definition of poor currently would be Scholes, Neville, and sometimes Welbeck, PArk and Gibson.
I know I will sound like a broken record, but everytime the Berba argument crops up I will point in the direction of midfield.
as I mentioned, Fabregas and Van Persie combine 17 assists between both if them this season; At United Giggs, despite his average performances at times, is the only one having decent assistin stats with 9 I think.
As for Fergie being at fault, I’m not one to blame him. I sure think that we could do with a truly world class attacking midfield (center or left) but I have to agree with him that there is no value on the market currently (irrespective of our current finances)
January 12th, 2010 at 14:12
@Stephen: More or less agree about over-spending, but that’s United tax, innit?
Still, £8m on Tosic looks a bit of a joke, especially if he’s not going to play him.
January 12th, 2010 at 14:17
@Stephen:
“…but he is the only person in my eyed who can get what we are getting out of the plyers currently”
And what exactly is it that he is getting out of these players?
If you’re implying that these are bad players, then who chose them?
If you are implying that they are performing admirably (under whatever circumstances), then do these performances really justify the high price-tag?
I agree that people are using certain players as scapegoats which is not really fair. At the end of the day, the manager should take responibility.
I am not saying sack Fergie. I never will. But, what I do say is…
“I believe the time is right for him to retire – with honour intact – at the end of this season. Regardless of whether we win the CL, EPL and CC”. I’ve grown oo tired of watching our lifeless football. At this rate, I might as well just follow the newspaper scores after the games.
January 12th, 2010 at 14:17
Some reports are suggesting that Man Utd are keeping a look on Joe Cole as his contract his expiring at the end of summer and is free.
There is almost zero chance of him coming here but if he comes it will be a great purchase.But who knows he may be turned into defensive midfielder
January 12th, 2010 at 14:18
@NicoQB: So true. Actually people are slating Berba as if he has been getting zillions of clear-cut opportunities to score and he is fluffing them… I know he doesn’t put so much effort into those 50-50s, but he never did that at spurs too. But, he managed to score goals there. And still people fail to notice that Berba manages to create best of the chances whenever he plays.
Still I would like to see him be more aggressive, but I think he is too old to change his game now.
January 12th, 2010 at 14:21
Who is responsible to play 4-5-1???Fergie or Berbatov???Is this the history of Man utd to play 4-5-1 against sides like Birminghom???Some how manage a draw and then start blaming refrees.This is too much now.
January 12th, 2010 at 14:27
If we have to continue plzying dull football then why not we play with Mr Special.He will almost guarantee the success.But here we are loosing both sides of the game,neither attractive football nor success ,this season.
January 12th, 2010 at 14:29
@Karl: Bar Rio, Vida, Evra and Rooney we do not have any other World Class players mate, yes he signed Carrick, Anderson, Berba, Nani and Tosic for near on £90m and they haven’t worked for one reason or another so yes he has to take the reposiblity for that.
We are second in the table in the semis of the Micky Mouse er sorry League Cup and in the knock out stages of the Champions League so he also has to take responsiblity for that too.
January 12th, 2010 at 14:34
@NicoQB: The midfield mate is poor, but so has he and as much as we can moan about the lack of quality but his lack of effort sometimes is his fault.
January 12th, 2010 at 14:35
@CraigMc: Because if they do tell us what is actually going on we’d invade the damn building and physically remove them.
January 12th, 2010 at 14:36
If 30m for Berba is high for his goal return, then 18m on Anderson is complete waste of money!
January 12th, 2010 at 16:24
@Jig3000: Completely agree with your assessment of the problems of having tioo large a squad. Here’s what I wrote on RoM and I will just do a copy-paste job here:
To be honest, I was not so pissed after watching the Birmingham game…the team did make some genuine efforts and showed some desire to go out and trample the opposition. A huge improvement over the Fulham (luckily I missed Leeds) game.
Now, the situation is as follows – the golden generation is fading out, we are in debt deeper than Mariana Trench and other teams like Spurs are catching up, while still others like Brimingham are willing to put eleven players behind the ball against us.
Considering everything, I am left wondering about some of the gaffers decisions and the coaching…has SAF and the staff really done such a “brilliant management job” with limited resources this season? Some obvious questions:
1. We lament the lack of options on the wings. Why, oh why, is Tosic not given a chance? And why is Nani never given a try down the right? I would argue that between Nani, Valencia, Giggs, Obertan and Tosic we should rule the wings. But no, Nani has to fit into the square (man)hole dug by an obdurate Scot. And he cant even talk about it (club discipline and loyalty aside, as an employee, I feel for him – arguably his best playing days are being taken from him, and poor guy cant even voice his opinions)!!
2. We lack goal-scoring strikers. Then why is Owen not given a start, Kiko is invisible and Welbeck played as a winger?!!! More Scot obduracy.
3. In these resource constrained times, we need to make the most of opportunities. Its been months since we are having problems with shooting, set pieces and crosses. Surely, with world class (not world’s best, mind you, but still world class, international players), it shouldnt take ages to improve the basics?
To me, it seems that we cant make up our minds about a core midfield, about our formation and about roles for the talent we got. For Christ’s sake, make up your mind. If you dont think Nani and Berba have it, sell them, while the going is good. While you are it, sell Park too. And get someone who is fast, big, good with the head, and plays with his face towards the opposition goal. You will get such a person at what – 30 mil? With the ronaldo+tevez windfall, and the profit from selling these players, the debt should easily read something like 580 mil, not 700. Which helps.
January 12th, 2010 at 16:35
Utd becuase of there debt might want to call ocean finance pmsfl and in my opinion fegie needs to by a match winner last year roanldo was our match winner even when we played bad he seemed to come up with something also there is tevez i remember at least 2 occasions were he came off the bench and got us eithier a point or changed the game (wigan and blackburn ) we need someone that can score and even when we play bad can deliver
January 12th, 2010 at 17:16
@Onkar: I agree. More often than not the tactics used and the rotation used by a manager will have more of an affect on a player’s performance than the player himself. I mean really, all we have to do is take a look at the numbers of one Carlos Tevez this season as compared to his entire tenure at United.
I am not a big fan of Tevez and I did not shed a tear when he left but he is making many of us eat humble pie and our words with his play for City this season. His case is a perfect example of how badly Fergie is running things and how awful a job he is doing in bringing out the best in his talented players by playing them out of position, asking them to do things on the pitch that remove them from their normal routines and comfort zones and by tactically placing them in shackles. All for the good of the team but nobody is going to convince me that using Wayner Rooney or Berbatov poorly is for the betterment of the team. Play these players in their correct positions and let them do what they do best and I think the team benefits far more than playing Berba too high and playing Wayne either on the left wing or as a lone striker up front.
Despite all the BS with the Glazer’s, Fergie himself has had more to do with the awful look of our team on the pitch than the owners. His tactics and improper use of players is hurting this team in so many ways I have lost count. And Carlos Tevez it seems is going to get the last laugh which is yet another hard pill for all of us to swallow simply because we took the manager’s side in the dispute between the two. Perhaps, just perhaps we were wrong to side with Fergie. Perhaps Fergie was just not getting the best out of Tevez by improperly using him and playing him way out of position and not taking advantage of the man’s skill set. God knows he seems to be doing it to everyone on the team this year.
January 12th, 2010 at 17:21
@Onkar: Thanks for those links mate.
January 12th, 2010 at 17:27
@Stephen: Fergie has been showing a general lack for judging talent of late. Not just on the base skills of players but on how well they will fit in or be integrated to the team. Clear as day Berbatov’s languid style of play was like adding pepper to red wine. A bad fit and a bad judgment call by Fergie. Valencia has been decent for us but there again I fail to see how his skill set fits in with out team philosophy that demands so much more attacking impact from our wingers. Anderson, Park, Foster, Tosic are all players who have shown us that they do not have the skill set to be a top player on this team. Why were they bought. Obertan he bought for the left side when the player is awfully timid but who also does not cross or use his left foot. Nani is a very skilled player but a player who does not seem to blend well with the club’s style of play. Same can be said about Owen. Owen is an outstanding striker but he is too similar to Rooney which makes him nothing more than an extravagance because he is not being used due to the fact that Rooney is never rested and the two cannot play well together. Yet another dumb purchase based on the way he operates things. Basically, Fergie has bought the wrong sized glove for this team’s hand. A poor judge of talent and a poor judge of using that talent properly.
January 12th, 2010 at 17:43
@Grognard: But we have won the league for the past two seasons plus Champions League and League Cup, he must be doing something right.
January 12th, 2010 at 17:50
@Onkar: It’s not Berba’s fault mate but the fact remains, Berba was not the right fit for this club. All his skill aside, he is to languid and too slow for the kind of football this club was playing for the past four or five years.
Yesterday I went back to watch the Road to Moscow dvd as well as the 07/08 Season in Review dvd. I wanted to see what was the big difference between now and then other than the greatness (and I mean absolute greatness) of one Ronaldo. Fergie did screwy things back then too. He would play players out of position, use weird tactics etc. But what was consistent with the club in every game of course was the aggressive brilliance of Ronaldo as well as the aggressive pace of our team.
The whole problem right now is we have lost our pace. Regardless of all the other problems and a genuine lack of quality up front, we have lost the pace and speed that made us a fearsome lot back then. How many goals were made because of a great run or pace being used to skin a defender or create width. Many more cutback passes were being used by us once our fullbacks and our wingers got position on a defender. Rarely did we waste time on low crosses into the box from static positions. Our wingers used their pace and their ability to get by the fullback. Nani was a much better player back then and his crossing was a real weapon. Ronaldo’s willingness to run at a defender made all the difference in the world. Not just when he scored but quite often somebody else would score because of the space created by a Ronaldo run and cutback. We still missed a lot of chances back then so our finishing has always been an issue but we created so much more.
Pace is the number one ingredient that is missing in our game right now. We are not spreading defenses wide and causing them grief by placing the kind of pressure that only speed can offer. One person being interviewed before the CL final commented on the fact he hopes the team plays United style football rather than the dreaded slow pace crap of the modern game. Well that is what we have adapted of late, the modern game. Hold on to the ball, do not give it up and regardless of how many chances you get, you will eventually have a better chance of winning the game because you have the ball. BOLLOCKS! Watching those games back then I was struck by our pace and adventure but I also noticed how we controlled the possession of the ball just as well then as we do now. The difference is we weren’t playing like cowards.
The single reason we played the way we did back then was because of two players. Ronaldo and Tevez. Ronaldo never knew what a slower gear looked like and Tevez simply made the team faster with his work ethic and tenacity. Add to that Rooney and Hargreaves and the club was truly built for speed and took advantage of that speed. And also, why the Hell Fergie does not use Wes Brown back at RB is beyond me because for me he was awesome at RB in 07/08/. Tevez was never my cup of tea as I never felt he had the true finishing or passing skills to truly light my fire. But his style did blend better with Rooney and Ronaldo and with the team’s general style of play. Letting him go might not have been a terrible move but replacing him with the exact opposite in styles (Berba) was definitely not the answer. Fergie should have scoured the planet for the ideal striker who would compliment Rooney and still offer the energy and pace of Tevez.
Poor decision making by the manager and a cowards approach has been the number one culprit over why we suck so badly now. Yes we have no Ronaldo or Tevez and we need to compensate accordingly but I fail to see how slowing the game up and playing players out of position makes us a better team. Listening to Bobby McMahon comment on Fox Soccer Channel last night, he was in total shock that a Manchester United team would go into a place like Birmingham City and play a 4-5-1. He is not a United fan but he still found it shocking that it has come this. He basically called the club UnUnited. I couldn’t agree more.
January 12th, 2010 at 17:55
@Stephen: Wenger is a genius but he too is a flawed genius. His methodology is very good. He likes and wants young players and his tactics are spot on. The problem with Wenger is like all managers, he may not be the best at judging talent. He has got an awful lot of them right but he still has not found the midfield general to replace Vieira and he has tinkered with his CB’s too much to not get the consistency defensively that he needs. Above all, he continues to make a terrible mistake leading this club out for every game with the second worst keeper in Europe in Aluminum Foil. I am of the belief that as long as he uses Almunia in goal, Arsenal will never win anything. That man negates one goal from that team every time he starts. His lack of skill and ability to make the big save when it counts hurts Arsenal greatly. Put a Neuer or and Adler on Arsenal and maybe a Diarra in midfield and they would be truly awesome.
January 12th, 2010 at 17:58
@Stephen: Past is past. We won that because of Ronaldo and to think otherwise is stupid mate. Ronaldo’s greatness and ability to elevate our play as well as our pace in games was a difference maker. Without him I knew we would be screwed but even I never thought we would look as bad as we have despite our flattering record in the standings.
January 12th, 2010 at 18:00
@Grognard: and Stephen, Ferguson is still fantastic at getting the best out of his players. And had this squad been under Rafa or Wenger we’d still be struggling. The problem is even the best of this lot is just not good enough.
January 12th, 2010 at 18:03
@Red Ranter: Great article by the way. There is a reason why I frequent this site and not ROM, and that reason Is post like this. I want to hear honest opinions on my club, not some rah-rah, red tinted glasses view of reality.
In short, keep up the good work.
January 12th, 2010 at 18:05
@Red Ranter: I agree nd is what I have been saying matey.
January 12th, 2010 at 18:08
@Grognard: You put Neuer and Diarra into aour side and we would be a lot better a side, all clubs seem to be two players short, like the FSW is always on about.
January 12th, 2010 at 18:21
Very good article RR, not your first by any means
This thing about value, thats a fuckin joke when you’re talking about a club whose sold a player for 80 mil,and thrown tens of millions around on players who dont make the grade, now there’s no value in the market. That bullshit just makes me very angry, its an obvious smokescreen and i lay the blame entirely on the Glazers. These bloodsuckers have/ are bringing our great club to its knees, and while Rome burns, our Neros’ are fiddling alright, to the tune of £23 mill, which they’ve helped themselves to over the last year. I’m so angry i could swim to Florida and drag some of those yank twats back to face the music. Enough is enough, we need to rid ourselves of this disease that is the Glazers.And premier league rules about ownership need overhauling. Fuckin Glazer scum. LUHG
January 12th, 2010 at 18:33
@AndyCR7: Oh, You did ask me about my new avatar, right?
It’s the delicious Mine Fujiko, of Lupin III. Sexiest fictional character ever.
Drool here:
January 12th, 2010 at 18:57
Grognard, I agree with you. People bemoan the lack of creativity in our team. But our team has never been about creativity. We have always been about fast, flowing football. I always remember the Barcelona final…we started in top gear and Barcelona could not cope with us. Then we slowed down, let Barcelona play their possession football and we got murdered. The main problem with Berbatov and Carrick is they slows us down too much.
We have two options.
1) Go back to 4-4-2 by buying a box-to-box midfielder to partner Fletcher who can score goals, AND find a striker who can play alongside Rooney and offer a physical and aerial threat, AND find a consistent left winger who is able to beat a man, cross etc.
2) Continue this depressing experiment with possession football but buying a few midfielders who can actually do something with the ball at their feet so we at least create more chances.
Personally as an United die-hard I prefer option 1. Yes 4-4-2 has fallen out of fashion. But with our defence better than it was in the past I still think that with the right personnel and a fast tempo style it can work.
January 12th, 2010 at 19:00
this is the first oppurtuntity i have had to write a comment since the burmingham game, and i dying to let rip. WHAT is going on inside the head of saf??? why on earth did we play 4 5 1 angainst a midtable team? i believe dropping berba was the correct decision but why did owen not start? he didnt even get a look in, instead fergie brings on a fucking unknown quantity and if u ask me i think that was a smack in the face for owen!!!! AND one he did not deserve! like he scores a hatrick, then scores agin and then is dropped, fergie is too stubburn and should just call it a day! his team selection and formations are stupid, plain stupid, and they are caustious, thats not the way we play.
OUR team this year is so much weaker its not a joke, not only did we lose the brilliance of ronaldo(which was inevetible) we lost the DRIVE AND ENERGY AND COMMITMENT of tevez, i hope fergie is eating his humble pie because he made the wrong decision in chose that ass donkey berba over the bull the tevez
any way im just so pissed off right now
January 12th, 2010 at 19:04
RoM has a very detailed analysis of the debt situation. A Chartered Accountant has delved into the details of the debt and given his take on it. Good read.
January 12th, 2010 at 19:08
@colver: I would argue that in the peak years of United under Ferguson, we combined possession football with the ability to play quick counter s as well.
Papers have always creamed over Arsenal’s sexy one touch football, but there was a time of halcyon days where we would produce just as good football, strumming together 20 odd passes before a simple finish would do the trick.
Do I miss those days.
January 12th, 2010 at 19:26
@jamie lee: Commitment and Tevez are not two words which fit well inside the same sentence.
(ya, ya, ya I know Johnsom
)
January 12th, 2010 at 19:43
@Grognard: Owen is not similar to Rooney Groggy. Rooney cannot play of the shoulder of the last man, and find the spaces like Owen can. Also put Owen and Rooney one on one with opposing GK’s in the box, and I guarantee Owen would score more goals than Rooney IF they were both given the same number of chances/opportunities
January 12th, 2010 at 19:47
@CraigMc: I always believed Owen would work best alongside a Torres-like player.
January 12th, 2010 at 19:50
@Jeet: I couldn’t agree with you more mate! You got it spot on.
January 12th, 2010 at 19:58
@Traverse: Traverse, I see that over on ROM they have now put up the facebook connection for MUST. The United fans want the Glazers out, but surely the fans shouldn’t go after Glaziers but the Banks and financial institutions who are financing them. Telling said financial companies that the message is going out to worldwide loyalist Man United fans, that they are planning to boycott all home games, will not purchase any merchandise while the Glazers are still in charge, and will not contribute to tv coverage, other media outlets until the Glaziers are gone. All you financial wizards, tell me if you think this has a chance at all, or have I got it wrong?
January 12th, 2010 at 20:06
@CraigMc: But banks/financial institutions aren’t United fans and they will lend if they see cold hearted business logic. No amount of fan protest is going to help. Only when fans vote with their pockets by not going to matches is it going to work. And that we all know is impossible right now because, like it or not, one set will be replaced by another set of willing fans.
No amount of open mismanagement by Hicks and Gillet has deterred the mob in Liverpool in terms of gate receipts, so what are chances of that here?
January 12th, 2010 at 21:10
@Red Ranter: Thats the whole point though RR, IF United fans told the financiers they were going to do the things I mentioned in my last post, and KEPT to it, then Financiers would know they were on to a loser right – because there would be no profits. But like you say – it is up to United faithful to get together and they all have to do it and be prepared to keep it up. I think you will find RR that they will not be replaced by another bunch of folk only too willing – not if all the Mancs were involved!
January 12th, 2010 at 21:29
@Red Ranter: I have no argument with that. In fact I am hoping your remember a few posts that I have written where I have praised Fergie enough by even saying the job he is doing this year may very well be his greatest coaching job by season ever. He is using mirrors or some kind of magic because frankly, despite the way they are playing and the clear lack of skill and quality in the middle of the park, he has got us in second place and the final 16 in the Champions League. I have predicted nearly everything that has happened this season but I have been wrong in one area, total points. We are losing as many as I predicted but somehow we are still scratching out more points than i expected. It does help however to see the other big three struggling too. That has kept us in it. Fergie has been forced to adopt a lot of his negative tactics and squad manipulations out of sheer necessity. We may not like a lot of it and much of it is still wrong but thanks to him the team has overachieved in my opinion.
January 12th, 2010 at 21:32
@Grognard: This post on Tevez brought tears to my eyes. As you know, I was/is/was/is huge on Tevez and knew that it would be the best move for him to move on
Why is it that what you’re saying is so obvious (except for the Rooney = Owen part…might be true, but I can’t see it either), but still people fail to see that?
I asked a question earlier, and no one bothered responding…
What about the idea of starting a supporters fund and try to buy back the club? How would a person go about such a thing? The way I figure, United have a few million supporters worldwide. Surely it is possible?
January 12th, 2010 at 21:32
@Stephen: We would be better but we would still struggle to break teams down and score goals against good teams. Diarra is a defensive player and Neuer a keeper. We are really more in desperate need of a striker that can play off of Rooney and a midfielder who can create chances.
January 12th, 2010 at 21:35
@Grognard: The same team that he assembled.
January 12th, 2010 at 21:40
@colver: It really isn’t about 4-4-2 or any tactical setup as much as it is about the quality of players. Last year we went to Arsenal and whacked them good playing 4-5-1. The difference is we went and beat them with pace and great counter attacking football. For me it was the game of the season because it was United playing a top opponent on the road in a fearless fashion. Today we got to the Burnley’s and Birmingham’s of the world and not just play 4-5-1, but do so in the typical cowardly manner that has become our most recent MO. We have many of the same players who were with the club when we beat Roma 7-1 yet Fergie has stripped many of those players of their natural instincts and expressiveness by taking away their pace and guile. When we attack with pace we are a formidable side to contend with, even without Ronaldo and Tevez. Few teams can cope with pace and pressure when it’s properly organized. By slowing the game down and boring teams with back pass after back pass you not only get them off the hook, but you also allow them to think more about counter attacking themselves because they do not have to fear us. It’s diabolically stupid in my opinion considering that back in 07/08 we played fast attacking football and still had over 60% of the possession in most games.
January 12th, 2010 at 21:42
New post up.
January 12th, 2010 at 21:45
@jamie lee: Fergie’s stubbornness to continually use Paul Scholes and use him inadequately is the real problem. Every time we play 4-5-1 Scholes is in there taking away the role of a striker yet he has no pace or legs anymore and is nothing more than a liability. If you are going to use him, don’t use him like a DMF, use up front around the box where some of his old attacking instincts can still be used. Otherwise, not using Owen borders on insane.
January 12th, 2010 at 21:50
@CraigMc: There is enough similarity mate that makes them incompatible when playing together. Rooney may not be as good as Owen playing off the shoulder of the last defender but he is also unable to playthe second striker role with Owen as the main striker and vice versa. They are both fast pacey players who like the ball at their feet and in front of them and that alone makes them unable to blend well together.
January 12th, 2010 at 21:52
@Red Ranter: Actually, I think both Owen and Rooney would function better with an Emile Heskey type. That is why Fergie got Berbatov, except that Berbatov may have the ball control but his lack of pace and effort slows us down to such a degree that it kills our openings.
January 12th, 2010 at 21:55
@CraigMc: You can’t go after after the banks mate, thats a futile gesture big time. Banks are out to make money and they don’t care about a team and it’s fans. No it’s the Glazer’s we need to go after and we need to make it so miserable for them to even show their faces in Manchester that one day soon hopefully, they will just say this isn’t worth the effort and sell. Lynch the Glazer’s I say……and seriously, I’m not kidding. A public hanging is just what they deserve.
January 12th, 2010 at 21:59
@Karl: One would have to start a non profit organization, get licensing and legal assistance to make sure it is run on the up and up and then start a web site like MUST and start taking donations which would be put into a trust fund. It’s a lot of work and for it to really work well, the group or individual who starts it should live in Manchester or at least in England for obvious reasons. I for one would donate to it if it was to start up. The other problem is accumulating all this money and it doesn’t get the Glazer’s to sell, then what?
January 12th, 2010 at 22:07
@CraigMc: Fan unrest, demonstrations, banners at the games etc. may do one thing;- make them spend on players before they plan on doing so. Ferguson could help here too, if he would just abandon his “buy 18 yearolds and cross my fingers” policy, and lobbied along with the fans for some more spending money!!
January 12th, 2010 at 22:12
@Grognard: I agree with that. Put a big man in the box to create some havoc and Rooney and maybe Owen would just feast on the scraps.
January 12th, 2010 at 22:30
In case that comment got squeezed out, here I go, once again:
New post up.
You can carry on your discussion there. For one, the thread will load faster.
January 14th, 2010 at 16:46
@scot
you said:
“United aren’t playing well enough, that’s a given. Fortunately, nobody else is either.”
the second sentence is unnecessary. i don’t support other teams. i don’t care how they play. it’s not about united relative to other teams . it’s about united relative to the standards set by united teams.
d