Nov 09
Reaction to the Chelsea defeat
United will go into the international break ruing, what could have been, a draw (even, to the optimists, a win). Prior to the game, whilst I predicted a 1-1 draw, a nagging feeling told me a defeat to Chelsea was a perfectly possible — and in a parallel universe, even deserving, given our recent form — and I had my mind made up preparing for the worst.
What transpired actually surprised me.
I’d mentioned in passing in the comments, in the week leading up to the match, that our approach should be a safety first 4-3-3/4-5-1 formation to deal with Chelsea’s formidable midfield. I also hoped we would first be a bit cagey to start off the match, and then, based on how well we settled, attack when presented with the chance. A draw, in my mind, was something I would have gleefully taken given the way our players were outplayed by a Liverpool side that was supposedly down in the dumps. [My thinking was, if our players couldn't rouse themselves for arguably our biggest fixture of any season -- Liverpool -- they would struggle to be charged up similarly for Chelsea] Add to this, the absence of our best central midfield pair for four years and one would see why United fans, by and large, feared the worst.
So I hoped the idea I had in mind — of best tackling Chelsea — played out. But it was more hope than conviction.
Ferguson, to his credit, got his tactics right to the T — as I hoped. The lads, to their credit, got going the way I’d played in my mind — in Hopeland; initially cagey, looking for chances as they came and held their lines well. And the lads, once again to their credit, were charged up for the occasion beyond any match I’ve seen this season.
And this played out like a dream… till the 76th minute.
The referee infractions right through the match annoyed me. But I was willing to forgive all that. After all, we were 0-0 and created the better chances in the second half. Fletcher fought like a lion, like he always does. Anderson, who I thought was not the best in the first half, came into his own towards the latter stages of the first and the rest of the match thereon; giving us more attacking thrust in midfield, while doing a good job — alongside Fletcher — in nullifying Deco and Essien. Also, was Ballack playing? And, I happened to notice Lampard when he was celebrating alongside Terry.
Same with our defence. Brown, after a questionable performance against CSKA, was up for this one. He was peerless, until a whining, cheating, moaning (yet built like a brick shithouse) player pulled him down from a suspiciously offside position. And, by the way, in case you didn’t know, Jonny Evans is only 21 years of age. There are reports that he has a troublesome ankle and will eventually require surgery but is currently playing through all that. Defenders typically peak in the latter half of their 20s, and if he stays healthy we have a gem in this boy. It’s a blessing in disguise that Rio is out indefinitely — as much as we’d like a fully fit Rio. Yesterday, he struck a stud into the heart of said brick shithouse, and while my first reaction on seeing the replay was “Ouch!”, my opinion since then has been revised, all things considered. I don’t have to speak my mind on this — it’s better left unsaid.
Anyway, the 76th minute…
Regulars would know I typically don’t lay blame on the referees after every defeat. I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. But yesterday was some rubbish officiating, to put it mildly. This match had inconsistencies peppered all over it, to either side — although the crucial ones went Chelsea’s way. These things always happen when you are the home team and a “big four” side, but Fletcher’s tackle was as clean as they get. And, as Ferguson later said, the positioning of the referee for the resulting free kick was horrendous. There were marginal calls for the Valencia penalty, and a much more serious error on Rooney’s offside call. On reflection, Evans was also a bit lucky to get away. The timekeeping, considering Alex’s substitution took about a minute was also dodgy. So there…
We can take heart from a wonderfully rousing performance, and one hopes this gets the side focused for the rest of the year. Our schedule seems gentle for the rest of the year right till the end of January where we face Arsenal at the Emirates. One hopes we can go on a run and expect Chelsea and Arsenal to drop points to stay within range.
Of course, the win doesn’t disguise the fact that we lack creativity going forward and we will struggle against the bigger sides. But with a dominant midfield, against inferior defences, we could do a much better job. If we saw even a bit of the fire we did see against Chelsea, I think we’ll be well positioned to put pressure on the league leaders.
Further reading:
An Arsenal perspective on our loss.
Republik of Mancunia
United Rant
A kick in the grass.
Bonus material, just to keep the mind off this:
The Lyon-Marseille match in the weekend was a 5-5 thriller! Yes, you read it right: 5-5! Here’s the extended highlights of the game. Good fun.
Related items from Red Rants:
- Veloso Rumours Won’t Go | Nani, Ronaldo Shine| Gerrard Continues To Be Media Darling
- United Sleepwalk to Defeat
- Did Fergie Bottle It?
- Manchester United throw the last game of the season
- Chelsea v Man Utd: Preview
Tags: Match Reports
November 9th, 2009 at 19:56
Can’t disagree with anything in that post. We were definitely a bit lucky that Evans wasn’t sent off for the Drogba challenge but I recall some people saying that it would’ve resulted in a penalty. It certainly wasn’t in the box and Drogs wasn’t really playing the ball. Not even sure he had a chance to get to it so I don’t know if the “last-man” rule really should’ve applied there.
The positives to take away from the match? Chelsea’s much-vaunted midfield did absolutely nothing on Sunday. Everyone seems to think that they’re the vastly superior side because they thrashed Bolton, Blackburn and Atletico (in the first tie) and so I guess they just didn’t play well. Sike. Our midfields, if anything, cancelled each other out (although I really do recall us getting into more positions between the CDM and the back four than Chelsea) and Fergie got the tactics right this time.
If we come out playing like this every match from here on out (with Berbatov coming back) and we shouldn’t have any issues running the table until we face Le Arse.
November 9th, 2009 at 20:08
As a Chelsea supporter I thought we rode our luck. Deco is no better than last season – one touch football is for Brazilians not us, though I suspect he just wanted not to get hurt!
I do think Evans was lucky not to get even a yellow but it wasn’t in the penalty box.
I worry about many aspects of Ancellotti’s diamond as I don’t think it works but I was surprised at how much United seem to miss Ronnie. I was mightily impressed by Roon – he was all over the park trying to make things happen, I just hope he is not knackered by May!
November 9th, 2009 at 20:13
Love this bit from the Arsenal perspective:
“he likes of Michael Carrick, Darren Fletcher and Anderson lack the creativity of Alex Song, Cesc Fabregas and Abou Diaby for example.”
I swear Arsenal fans are the most delusional on the planet. If they’d left it at just Fabregas they’d have a point…
Whole article seems to tie in with what the general media are all somehow taking from the game – despite us being the better side and Chelsea getting a huge break from the refereeing decisions, seemingly they are the real deal and we’re not good enough.
November 9th, 2009 at 20:17
@Sam Davis: Of course you cannot disagree with anything. You are twins. I am also looking forward to ECL games with Owen starting with Berba and Rooney resting. !
November 9th, 2009 at 20:18
@NickOGS20: All things considered, Abou Diaby is a fantastic header of the ball.
Arsenal, whilst having excellent players on the attacking end, are mightily suspect in the defensive midfielder slot. The Alex Songs and Diabys of this world wouldn’t hold a candle to most big sides.
November 9th, 2009 at 20:41
I was reading some RR.com archives: http://redrants.com/possible-transfer-targets-for-man-utd/
This is from summer 2007. Good stuff about Hargo, Berbatov, Nani, and Owen as possible transfers… and Torres, Ribery, Villa, and Tevez too.
November 9th, 2009 at 20:42
RR, I am a third of the way through “Soccernomics”. Truly a fantastic book and a must read for footy fans everywhere. Loved the opening chapter on England’s inability to win anything. Epic writing to say the least and the honest truth. Incredibly interesting anecdotes and theories on the game that are eye opening to say the least. Can you believe it, based on their data and formulas, England has been overachieving. Classic!
November 9th, 2009 at 20:44
@[OPTI]Madschester United:
RR’s avatar has a deeper shade of red… don’t know why I noticed that, or even bothered to comment on it. 
Btw, I also agree with what you write RR and find it difficult not to blame the incompetent ref for the result yesterday. However, it was a wonderful performance and at least showed us we still have that grit and determination most of our play so far this season has been lacking. Speaking of, what do you think it is; Fergie instructing the lads to keep the tempo down, hence conserving energy for the latter parts of the season OR it’s just our players becoming more laid back in their attacking?? Because, everytime we are in desperate need of a goal, the lads all of a sudden look like they were injected with adrenaline!!
Also, most folk on the previous thread were harping on about how we need to sign new players… I don’t really feel we do. In the striking departmement, we have too many options; Berba, Rooney, Owen, Macheda, Welbeck, that Diouf lad and other younglins like Josh King. In the wings, we have Nani, Valencia, Obertan (who is looking increasingly impressive), Tosic, that Ljajic kid (who I read can also play attacking central mid).. notice, I left Park out
Midfield, we have Fletcher, Carrick, Anderson, Gibson, Hargreaves(if he ever returns) and many more like possebon and the younhglins who are impressing in the reserves (Eikrem, matt james etc). In defence, we are blessed! no need to even list players. Goalkeepers, I hope Foster is still up to the job, but my belief in him is waned, so maybe that will be the one spot we might need a replacement for.
Our team is looking good and I really hope Fergie can find a compromise between the 4-4-2 and the 4-3-3/4-5-1/4-2-3-1 formation as we have the perfect personnel for a 4-4-2 but a 4-3-3/4-5-1/4-2-3-1 is most effective against tough opposition as that is what most of them actually use ( Barca, Arsenal, liverpool etc). If we can find a balance, I reckon we can get the most of our players, especially from midfield and hence allow the forwards to do what they are supposed to do, score goals, due to proper service from the wings and midfield. What y’all think?
November 9th, 2009 at 20:50
Though we would never do this but if fergie played that team as his first 11 the way chelsea do, we probably would win every game. That team is dominant. Should be played against all the big teams
Hargreaves is doing ball work so that great! When Hargo comes back we will have one hell of an engine room. Hargo, fletch and anderson I think can stifle any team. Dare I say even barcas!
November 9th, 2009 at 20:50
@Grognard: Nice. Hopefully you’ll see what I’ve been saying regarding why a franchise model is terribly difficult to implement in Europe. Simon Kuper explains it in detail.
I am not with him on everything, but he does make some very good observations on world football in general. For an Englishman, he is smart enough not to get sucked in to the English hype.
November 9th, 2009 at 21:25
Btw, why am I not surprised the dailymail hasn’t picked up on this cancer campaign Fergie is backing?! No, they rather paint us as disrespectful to the dead and ‘Typical United’
geez, that rag needs to be shut down, somehow, anyhow. It’s racist, facist, prejudiced.. everything wrong with society!! 
This might not be football related but everytime I think of that paper, it just does my head in 
November 9th, 2009 at 21:48
@Red Ranter: His big mistake is always bringing up Billy Beane and the book Moneyball which I have read and which deals with baseball’s new statistical revolution called “Sabermetrics”. Just so you know, Billy Beane is the most overrated and useless GM in baseball. He lived for five years on the successful drafting of his predecessor in Oakland and has had nothing but failure finding the right players using his approach. And ever since the organization in Oakland has had to count on just his vision and drafting techniques, Oakland hasn’t even come close to reaching the playoffs.
What I have found fascinating though is the correlation between a team succeeding through buying players. It’s not the case. In fact, it surprises me that the statistics show that if you want your team to play better, don’t buy players and sell players, pay your players more money. I would never agree with this but proof is in the numbers. Also, excellent chapters on Brian Clough and peter Taylor. Talk about two codependent types who were connected at the hip. But what a difference they made in the transfer market eh? A great book.
November 9th, 2009 at 21:49
I think this game gave Chelsea more reasons to worry then renewed hope to the United supporters. It is true that there was an apparent lack of creativity and any semblance of dominance on the Chelsea side predicted by nearly everyone before the game. It was almost like expectations two weeks ago that United would just walk over Liverpool and knock them out of the title contention. Well that didn’t materialize and neither did the purported Chelsea superiority over United. Ironically enough Arsenal had probably the strongest showing against United so far this season with the result going United way with its own share of controversial decisions.
With all this said and whatever moral victories that United may claim a win is a win. Chelsea got all three points and United have now to deal with a five point deficit. Add to that a tentative United performance in the all three big games this season – more suitable to an underdog that title contender. Therefore the claim that Chelsea have EPL title almost wrapped up for them is probably a bit too premature but United still have a long way to go to proove that.
November 9th, 2009 at 21:53
@Gabriel: Stop defending them mate. They were wrong to neglect the veterans and the dead who sacrificed themselves so that they could have the right to snub them on Memorial Day. I couldn’t care less about their other charities. They do something about those because they are a brand and they are selling united to those who care. Why? Because they are alive. Dead veterans do not make money for United, doctors, nurses and the general public do spend money on United, especially if they have friends or family who suffer from cancer. As cynical as this may sound, its all about marketing.
November 9th, 2009 at 22:08
@Grognard: Seriously Grog? I’m sure you know United do support the veterans immensely and that wearing a poppy flower is a choice, not a requirement. The same freedom of choice those brave soldiers fought for. How you manage to integrate your ‘United/Glazers are corporate devils’ malarkey into this is amazing. How is supporting Cancer research selling the United brand? Or refusing to embroid a poppy unto a jersey disrespecting the dead soldiers? Geez Grog, sometimes you have to put aside your cynicsm when examining events.
November 9th, 2009 at 22:24
@Gabriel: @Grognard: I am with Gabriel on this. It’s not just about United, Grog. You must understand the context here.
Everyone in the UK understands United and Liverpool’s stance on this. Everyone except the Daily Mail who, if you are not aware, are historical fascist sympathizers, and are the closest to Fox News in their political views. And that’s what pisses me off.
It’s about their hypocrisy. It’s not like United didn’t even bother to honour the soldiers. One can ask why they didn’t put the poppy on the players when every member of their staff have it on. But it doesn’t deserve bullying them into wearing it, because they chose to honour them in their own way. One can expect someone to honour soldiers, but to tell them to honour them in the way they see fit, is off limits in a free society — especially for voluntary acts. That, my friend is a much more important issue.
I agree — it wouldn’t have hurt United to embroider the poppy on the players’ shirts, but it equally doesn’t warrant self-righteous indignation for not wearing it, when they have done it on the manager — where the red poppy stands out more distinctly in the black background instead of the red shirts.
This incident made United look bad, but I wouldn’t stand for the fascist bullying for what is, in essence, meant to be a voluntary act. And we shouldn’t let our emotions ignore a more serious free speech issue — something the soldiers have fought for.
Whatever the situation, I’d put the protection of right to free-expression, without being told how to express myself, above all.
November 9th, 2009 at 22:38
What a dive. Typical liverpool really.
November 9th, 2009 at 22:41
This is what pisses me off when people say only United get favoured at Old Trafford. ALL big four sides get the rub of the green at home. But you’ll still see the press, and the rest of the league bleat on about just us getting favourable treatment.
We saw it yesterday at the Bridge, and today at Anfield.
November 9th, 2009 at 22:42
@Red Ranter: That was a disgusting dive. The FA should really through the book at ngog like uefa to eduardo, but i wont hold my breathe.
November 9th, 2009 at 22:59
2-2 final score.
Should have been 2-1 brum. Disgusting Ngog.
November 9th, 2009 at 23:00
Just shoes how shite their club is, they have to resort to absolutely pathetic diving to get a point at home to Birmingham.
November 9th, 2009 at 23:02
@Red Ranter: And yet if I am honest with myself, I really do not see our team as a violator of the rules to that extent whether at home or away. I think other than Ronaldo, we have always played by the rules and shown class on the pitch.
November 9th, 2009 at 23:04
@Dan:
Gerrard, “Ronaldo dives.”
I am more disgusted at the ref for not seeing the dive by N’gog…He was right there and N’gog made the most of it with a fully arched back.
This year in the Prem there has been a lot of poor displays by Ref’s
November 9th, 2009 at 23:05
via Dirty Tackle from twitter: “Well, Liverpool just stole a point like so many items from Steven Gerrard’s house.”
November 9th, 2009 at 23:09
NickOGS20: “I swear Arsenal fans are the most delusional on the planet. If they’d left it at just Fabregas they’d have a point…”
Not really sure how suggesting the Arsenal trio are more creative than United’s is delusional. As a combination they seem to be creating far more than United at this stage and are allowing us to score freely. I wasn’t trying to say that Diaby is better than Anderson or Song is better than Carrick, just that United’s combination seems to be a little bit inconsistent and lacking in creativity. Hence the reliance on Rooney to create his own chances.
Fair, or not?
November 9th, 2009 at 23:21
@Andy @ Arsenal FC Blog: United aren’t creating much because of the frontline’s inability to gel — I mean the wings and the attack. Carrick can be static at times, and all our midfielders pale in comparison to Fabregas, but the main strength of Arsenal’s attack is due to your front four/five that interchange. Arshavin, van Persie, Bendtner, Fabregas (add to that Nasri when he gets over his injury.) It reminds me of the United side that demolished Roma. That season’s United was sensational in that respect.
We have an aging Giggs, and Valencia still finding his feet. And the jury is still out on Berbatov. But Arsenal are still soft in midfield and I am convinced about that.
November 9th, 2009 at 23:23
Arsenal midfield is creative or not does not matter but they know how to score goals…The difference between Man Utd and Arsenal this season is that watching us, i wonder from where goals will come while watching Arsenal ,it is opposite means from where goals will not come…
I hate them a lot but Seiously i think,Fabregas will be top contender for Best playes in the world Award next year.
November 9th, 2009 at 23:25
@ Red Ranter : Reply button is not working…when ever i go there it disappears…have you changed something
November 9th, 2009 at 23:26
@owen: I haven’t changed anything. It will be at the right hand side bottom of every comment. It seems to be working for everyone here. Try switching your browser.
November 9th, 2009 at 23:30
@RedRanter
Doesnt work for me either…
November 9th, 2009 at 23:32
So much crap comes out of the corridors of Old Trafford and most of it is very hypocritical. Nothing is ever Manchester United’s fault and is always everybody else’s.
I think that Fletcher should come out and give Arsene Wenger an apology. Wenger has never named him as the player who ran around booting players in the air and perhaps Fletcher should look a little closer to home before announcing that Arsene Wenger influences ref’s.
Because Alex Ferguson doesn’t do it does he?
November 9th, 2009 at 23:37
@B: We both don’t have the right to be self-righteous as far as hypocrisy in managers and players are concerned. Arsene Wenger is Mr-I-didn’t-see-the-incident if it benefits his club. Players and managers say stuff to defend their club. If you’ve just discovered this, you’ve been living under a rock. We all know Ferguson is a hypocrite, and we also know Arsene Wenger is no angel.
And so are most players to the press. So let’s go easy on the self-righteous pontification, eh?
November 9th, 2009 at 23:38
@ B : The whole world knows about Fletcher,game…he is very honest and not a froud like whole Chelsea Squad…If Arsene was not referring to him,then can you plz tell me who was then that person….Rooney?Berba?…..
November 9th, 2009 at 23:43
@B: Also that was the one game in memory that Fletcher did get away with a lot of things from the ref. But in general, I think if you can get over your bias (which is too much to ask, I understand) Fletcher is among the more honest players who’s far from a thug. I’d put Rooney under the more thuggish characters. There, I admitted it.
The Wenger accusation by Fletcher is a bit far fetched, but let’s not get carried away about hypocrisy when it comes to Wenger, eh?
November 9th, 2009 at 23:48
@Andy @ Arsenal FC Blog
You have a valid point. But I will counter that with saying that you have a refular midfield pair which plays week in week out. Yeah, Diaby may switch with Denilson at times but you mainly use those three in the middle. While we change our midfield each weeked, at times even playing 4-3-3 which happens a maximum of 10 times a season. Consider that, and the fact that we rotate an incredible lot in midfield, you will see that managing to keeping a solid balance of attacking and defending, while still doing their proper job of neutralizing the opposition midfield, its not that easy. I think you wrote a good article, and most of my mates will agree with your points(them being Arsenal fans). However, they all still think that the tackle Fletcher made on Cole was fair, just as his tackle on Fabregas in the CL last season was not deserving of a red card or a penalty. Other than that, you did a good job.
BTW, I will just say that I admire Fabregas. Although he may not be the fastest, strongest or best technical midfielder in England, his vision and passing accuracy to go with it makes him stand out. He is very much like Xabi Alonso, just a younger version with better players around him. He is also allowed a kind of “free role”, as you have two other midfield players to cover for him. So in a sense, he is being used in his main position, in the proper way. While Fletcher just started to play as a CDM last season, and Anderson has only been given a few games as a CAM. Neither Carrick or Scholes have the creativity, but they have an ability to decide the pace of a game. But only if we dont face too tough opposition.
As for Anderson, he has vision. I would say so much that from I have seen, he has just as good a vision as Fabregas. He is stronger, faster, a better tackler and technically better than Cesc as well. What is the difference between those two though is that while Cesc also has brilliant vision, he has a passing range and movement around him which lets him use that. Anderson is still being held back a little by Fergie, because when I see him play his game I know what lives inside him. Thats when his shackles are removed, but often they are not and he has to play like ordered to, often as a deep-lying playmaker. And I know, neither Fabregas or Anderson are that. Add to that fact that while Fabrehas has players like Arshavin, Van Persie, Walcott and Rosicky around him, what we can show are Valencia(trying to find his feet), Giggs(an old man, but still very good when on his game), Berbatov(who needs other players` movement for him to do well) and Rooney. There is a difference, and I beleive that if Anderson had been given the same team-mates as Fabregas has at Arsenal he would have been the better player. Fabregas didnt impress me too much until 2008, then only for a few games before he went to sleep until Arshavin arrived. He couldnt shoot, and didnt have great movement around him. Now he is a better attacker, and he has great movement around him, which fits him well. Besides, every time Anderson has come up against Fabregas the dominant one has been our Ando.
When it comes to strength, vision and just dominating the game.
As for the other two, while Fletcher and Carrick doesnt have a lot of attacking vision, I wouldnt say Song or Diaby do either. Thats what may make you look delusional, if anything. Fabregas and Anderson are the ones with vision, the other four are expected to do the hard work. Ive noticed that, and Im sure you have as well, so I find it a little odd that you compare all six when it comes to vision instead of just the two latin players.
November 9th, 2009 at 23:50
@B
Fjern deg a Bjarne, fant det ut med en gang. Gå og lok på en av Liverpool bloggene dine.
November 9th, 2009 at 23:56
Sorry,its just that the undeserved losses stand out more than anything and his game that day still grates.Kinda how ye feel about that sly bastard Terry after yesterday.
November 9th, 2009 at 23:59
@Footy4Eddy: Carrick has more vision than Anderson mate.
It’s just that you’d love to do [unprintable stuff with] Anderson that you wouldn’t admit to it. 
November 10th, 2009 at 0:04
@ Footy4Eddy : But the difference between Fabregas and Andy is that Fabregas scores a lot which is essential for an attacking midfielder..Fabregas provides countless number of assists and more importantly has played according to his potential…
Andy is a great player in view of you and me but still he is not a regular 1st team member and never shown his true potential..After so many games,excuses cant me made much that he is not playing at his desired position or he will score more in future..This year is the challenging one and we are supposed to be in crisis
This year was ideal made platorm for Anderson , nani and Berba…Andy and Berba have played well,not great and Nani has done ZERO.Fergie had high hopes from Nani this season but in turn Nani has just cheated him.He was supposed to scor 10-15 goals but i fear,he will not get 10-15 starts.
November 10th, 2009 at 1:09
@RedRanter- I’ll have to disagree about Carrick having better vision than Anderson. I’d be hard pressed to choose between the two because both have good vision. But Scholes is the master
November 10th, 2009 at 1:18
@Jay wire: Anderson has struck me as a hustler, and someone who can run with the ball at speed. He get’s risky through balls, but that doesn’t mean he has better vision. He tends to go head down a lot, although he’s showing signs of improving upon that. For now, though, I think Carrick has better vision.
November 10th, 2009 at 1:57
@owen: It does matter because my thoughts were called ‘delusional’ by one of the readers.
November 10th, 2009 at 1:58
@Footy4Eddy: Thanks mate. Just a comment on the Fletcher tackle – I have since changed my point of view on that after seeing a replay of it. My article was written without a second look and I apologised for the mistake.
November 10th, 2009 at 2:01
@Footy4Eddy: Andy @ Arsenal FC Blog: Also, on the Diaby/Song delusional thing, I have to disagree. Diaby can look like a muppet at times when he gives the ball away cheaply, but as a creative player he is very good. Unpredictable, inconsistent and a real threat when he’s going. Meanwhile Song has been our best player of the season so far, even if he’s not creative. The platform he is providing for the other two midfielders (Diaby and Cesc, usually) means that our three is more creative on the whole. That’s all I was saying.
Thanks to everyone who comments. I really, really, really don’t like United (try and grow up in Australia and not hate them if you don’t go for them!) but I think I’m reasonably fair when it comes to actually rating them or not. And I’m not ‘delusional’.
November 10th, 2009 at 3:27
@Red Ranter: I actually think that Carrick is a casualty of our deteriorated CMF.
His game has never been that of a crushing, dominating type. He is thoughtful, but need the time to execute the long through balls that have been his trademark.
I thought he was more effective against Chelsea than I’ve seen him in a long time, and it mostly due to Fletcher and Anderson doing the donkey work.
But it took 2 of them to do it and we can’t do that all the time – we need to score more goals!
It keeps coming back to the same thing for me. The way out of our scoring funk is not to keep tweaking what we have, but to add to what we’ve got.
November 10th, 2009 at 4:31
NEWS!!! How much can I trust the rumors of Ribery being offered around??? At only 35 mill quid?
If so, wouldn’t he be our panacea?
Oh, tell me its true
November 10th, 2009 at 5:02
@[OPTI]Madschester United: You know, I think Bayern have chemistry issues too. It seems more than likely that they will make some changes now.
They haven’t won the CL since 2001 and that is what is driving them.
Lahm is unhappy too, and seems under pressure to perform on the pitch and shut his gob to the press.
Wonder if they’re gonna weed out the malcontents??
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/bayern-munich-prepared-to-sell-ribery-1817593.html
November 10th, 2009 at 5:11
Berbatov for Ribery, …..anyone??
November 10th, 2009 at 5:16
@Redrich: I would like this to happen. BY now most people here might have realised how much I love Berba and If this going to help him and United both then why not. I mean Berba + may be some amount of money (Actually lot of money) and Ribery sounds goodto me…
I hope he leaves and have a great career which he deserves at his quality…. But one thing for I would not be happy as then onwards I won’t be able to see him week in week out as there is no regular telecast of bundesliga in India…
November 10th, 2009 at 5:25
@Redrich: I really like Berbatov. He is one of the classiest players to wear the red jersey. So silky smooth and oozes class — he is as close to The King as Cantona himself
November 10th, 2009 at 5:28
We should not let go of Berba. We need to give him a real opportunity to further showcase his talents.
I think Nani+20 million for Ribery would be a better deal for both clubs. Bayern have Muller and Toni (?) and we would swap Nani… of course that is just me dreaming…
Possibility: Unlikely
November 10th, 2009 at 5:54
@Red Ranter: How bloody difficult is it to accept to put on a blody poppy mate? Nobody is forcing them but then again, why should they be forced when doing the right thing would have made them wear it out of respect and duty, not because the Daily Mail or Grognard bullied them into it. How much of sacrifice and beast of burden can a little poppy be to the team? Nothing they can do or say can ever hide the shame i feel as a United fan for their decision to ignore this. Commemorate their own way? Rubbish. You do so in the tried and true manner that is tradition. It’s the wearing of the symbolic poppy. To Hell with freedoms and all that nonsense. We are not asking that they be taxed or to sacrifice their first born or anything that is absurd. I am simply saying that ignoring and deciding to not wear a poppy as a symbolic gesture to commemorate the dead and those who served and sacrificed so much, is a blatant show of disrespect and insensitivity and nothing you or anyone else can say, will change my mind on it. My God, how awful it must be to wear a heavy hindering and painfully nagging poppy. It’s shameful. Call me a cynic all you want, I am 100% right on this. It’s not self righteous indignation when I am showing shame and disappointment in my team for not doing the right thing and doing their duty. It’s shame and disappointment.
November 10th, 2009 at 5:59
@B: The only crap I see is the shite you are spewing out of your bloody Gooner trap. Be off with you.
If you are not United, then sod off to some Gooner board. That kind of shite just pisses me off big time. Fletcher has a point because refs do listen to influential men like Wenger.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:02
@[OPTI]Madschester United: You can trust them mate because they are very strong and very loud in Germany and especially in Munich. He has been playing poorly like he doesn’t care and this is affecting the morale of the squad big time. He may be gone in January but don’t fret about it, he’s not coming to us or Chelsea. Madrid or Barca will end up with him, believe me.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:02
@Grognard: I dealt with him, so no need for the aggro. He was sharing his opinion and I made him understand. Opposition fans are allowed on this board as long as there is no name calling.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:04
@Red Ranter: Let them go to their bloody Gooner sites. Does the Grognard waste his time and that of Gooner fans by going over to there sites to spout his pro United rhetoric? No, then we don’t need their kind around here.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:05
@Grognard: Opposition fans are allowed here as long as they don’t get personal. Read my comment policy.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:09
@Redrich: You know I have come to the conclusion about Carrick, he’s just not good enough mate. He’s a very decent player but he is not good enough to maintain and perform well enough in the role he has been given by the Boss. He’s too slow, he thinks slow and in a very plodding manner and his confidence gets shaken very easily. I think he has been given more than enough time to show his quality and being honest, I think he has failed. Not miserably, but just failed to live up to what was expected of him. Frankly, I felt going after him in the first place was a mistake because even at Spurs I did not think he was what we should be looking for. He was a poor purchase by the Boss considering the money spent. In fact, Spurs have fleeced us good over the past few seasons. I like Carrick but I just think we need somebody who has more presence in the midfield and a lot more ambition and energy.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:11
@Redrich: Having read that about Lahm, I really would like Fergie to see if he was available. Man if we got Lahm at RB, that would be awesome. But I wouldn’t read too much into it. German players historically have been outspoken and have big mouths. Nothing ever comes of it.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:11
@Grognard: If he goes to Madrid or Barca, I will be surprised, as they do not need a winger (of course, need has not been their way of thinking).
I have a gut-feeling that Chelsea will get Aguero and not go for Ribery and with Madrid and Barca not “needing” him, I do not think they will pay 35+ million. That leaves the dream alive… I bet $1 that Ribery will go to United (yes, I am crazy
) and Nani/Carrick+20 million will head to Germany.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:12
@Redrich: That would be a good fit for both clubs. But it will never happen.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:14
@[OPTI]Madschester United: Close to the King? Nobody is close to the King, least of all Berba. I like him too and I think he is a classy player with a languid lazy attitude. Only George Best comes close to being that kind of royalty. Berbatov is not royalty. He is not…….. CANTONA
November 10th, 2009 at 6:16
@[OPTI]Madschester United: You are missing a very key point here mate. Ribery is not interested in coming to Man Utd. He only wants to play in Spain and for Madrid or Barca.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:17
@Red Ranter: I know your comment policy mate, but I just hate it when they troll in here to just get us all riled up. You should be supporting your base here, not a lone troll looking to cause trouble. Get your loyalties right mate.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:19
@Grognard: Let’s come back to this subject after this season. In fact, these players will be judged at the end of the season:
Berbatov – has to keep up his good play of late and improve after Christmas
Nani – I am sot sure he will survive the cut next summer unless he improves his decision making asap
Carrick – he needs to find his heart and improve his play or he will be out too
Park Ji-Sung – South Korean shirt sales aside, if he does not play well after his injury he will be out too
Neville – will he finally retire?
Scholes – will he retire?
Giggs – if he thinks he can continue he will stay next season
November 10th, 2009 at 6:19
@Grognard: You do so in the tried and true manner that is tradition. It’s the wearing of the symbolic poppy.
What tradition? This thing started in 2002! That’s tradition for you?!
Look I am not defending the fact they didn’t wear it. But I am defending their right to not wear it if they choose not to even if it means they come out smelling bad. And the media like Daily Mail (who, by the way are the only ones bleating about this with their right wing nonsense) have no right to tell United on how to honour something.
Free expression infractions start with little things like this, and I can’t accept that. And I think I am 100% right on it. So this debate is deadlocked, with none of us going to agree with one another, so let’s move on.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:20
@[OPTI]Madschester United: Henry is on his last legs at Barca and so they need him their badly. Also, he doesn’t care if he is needed at Madrid and neither do they. They want each other because Ribery has his head so high up Zinedine Zidane’s ass, his nose is touching the Zizu’s molars. Also key to all this, they have the money to buy him. We don’t and he has no interest in Chelsea or Man City.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:21
@Grognard: It’s not a question of loyalty here when he didn’t call anyone names. He called a player names — in fact he called Old Trafford and Ferguson hypocrites. (What’s wrong with that?) So I don’t want to escalate things here. And I actually dealt with it, and he accepted his fault in a reply. So my point was why rake this up again? That’s all.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:21
@[OPTI]Madschester United: Fair enough.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:24
@Red Ranter: Wearing the poppy started in 2002? Are you nuts? I have worn a poppy since I could walk. We all wear them here in Canada every year around this time since before the second world war. What are you saying man?
Further more, it’s not about their right to wear or not wear it. I understand that. My question is WHY wouldn’t they want to wear it? Is it some Free Masonic ritual of the Glazer’s to not show respect to the fallen or what? Freedom is one thing mate, callousness is another. Like I said before, to wear one is not exactly a beast of burden or something that would have cost them money or effort.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:26
@Red Ranter: I don’t like an outsider, especially a Gooner’s fan coming on here and calling the Boss or Fletch a hypocrite. Frankly, it’s OK if we do because we are in a sense family, but he is not and so I took great exception to his remarks.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:28
@[OPTI]Madschester United: Nani in Germany…?? Now that’s just cruel!!
November 10th, 2009 at 6:30
@Grognard: I am not nuts. I know fully well that the poppy tradition is quite old, and it means a lot in Canada, as well as the UK and the British Isles in general. But the tradition of clubs adopting it was done only since 2002.
I also said, I wished our club wore it, but my article from the beginning was the disgusting hounding from the Daily Mail which wasn’t cool at all.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:31
@Grognard: I thought for sure I had read that Ribery was a fan of United, Madrid, Barca, and Milan. With our little French connection (Evra+Obertan+Blanc) and Madrid not willing to spend 35 million for a winger* there is a chance that we can lure Ribery to OT.
*The only deal that can get Ribery to RM is Van Der Vaart + 25 million for Ribery — yes, that is more likely than Ribery to United, but I am not giving up now that the chance is there to get him. Fergie works in mysterious ways
November 10th, 2009 at 6:33
@Redrich: Nani does not know that Munich is not in Germany.
There are portuguese in Germany doing quite well – Almeida and Costa are examples
November 10th, 2009 at 6:35
@Grognard: I’m sorry you don’t like an outsider, but I think it’s one of those uncomfortable things you may have to put up with. Look, it’s ok when I haven’t dealt with him and you have a go at him. But I don’t want you to just have a go for no reason other than the fact that it’s an opposition fan.
I like the regulars here, but I don’t want this place to be insular and hostile to outsiders. Doesn’t matter if it’s an opposition fan. There are a lot of fans who want to have good debate with opposition fans. And we just had one from Andy from Arsenal FC Blog today. I understand they will face backlash for being opposition fans, but having a go for the heck of it, isn’t something I appreciate.
Trust me, I typically screen 90% of opposition fans. I let this one through because I think he brought up something worth for me to counter.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:35
@Red Ranter: I am with RR here. There are a million charities and events worth paying notice off and worth so much more than a poppy on the shirt. I think eddy’s comment about Fergie involvement with the cancer (not mentioned by Mail) is very worthy and makes me proud of United.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:38
@Grognard: I understand that. At least you agree with me that IF he came to england he would come to Utd and that is where I find solace.
BTW, where does Madrid get their millions? They spent 200 million this summer, how can they afford (business-wise) another 30-50 million?
November 10th, 2009 at 6:39
@Grognard: I have so little interest in this argument, but I have to agree. The poppy has been a symbol of Remembrance Day since I was a boy.
And moreover, this is all suppose to honor the dead of WW1 and so how has this got anything to do with anything. Fascism, freedom of speech, are you kidding me.
If The Daily Mail wants to take a biased political stance, then at least we know what it is they believe. If you don’t like their agenda, stay away from their agenda.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:40
@Red Ranter: How much time do you spend on this blog reviewing comments and posting threads? Is it profitable ??? (I am sensing a big NO on profit)
November 10th, 2009 at 6:42
@Redrich: I’ve made my peace with this argument. It’s a dead end as far as I’m concerned.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:49
@[OPTI]Madschester United: I spend considerable time reading news and reading links people post on twitter. I also do get involved with other football fans on twitter, and I find it a brilliant tool when used right.
Regarding the blog comments, on good days when no one get’s into a fight, I just read comments and respond to some of them. On days fights break out, all bets are off. From my experience, invariably it happens on weekends. And since I am a bit obsessed with getting things right, I obsess too much for my own good, it makes for a frustrating period. Sometimes I wonder if I should let people deal with troubles on their own, but I have seen the direction such unmoderated communities take.
Regarding profits, I won’t go into numbers, but any money gets reinvested back into the site. Or is put in reserve for any need — for the site. In short I don’t make money off this despite the advertising. And it’s not in my near term plan either. Unless someone big comes and decides to pay me for this.
Oh, and I have my day job.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:49
I found this on IMUSA.org:
“Update: Noah Pransky, reporter for CBS affiliate WTSP-TV tweets: “WDAE’s Dan Sileo says Glazers haven’t put Bucs on market yet, but Wall St. insider says family lost $400M+ indirectly to Madoff.“
Earlier: The Glazer family is trying to sell the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, their NFL franchise. Tampa sports talk radio station WDAE broke the news.
Forbes valued the Buccaneers franchise at $1.085 billion in 2009.
The source of the Glazer family’s trouble may be the UK soccer team it also owns, Manchester United.
That was a highly-leveraged buyout, and Man-U[td] is now thought to be in as much as $1.8 billion debt.
That debt may be one reason the Buccaneers’ payroll is an astounding $30 million under the NFL’s salary cap. It’s almost unheard of for NFL owners not to spend as much on salary as they can.”
- If true, this is VERY scary and 80 million from Ronaldo does nothing to heal a $1.8 billion hole
November 10th, 2009 at 6:50
@[OPTI]Madschester United: The Glazers did debunk the above statement from Clear Channel but he would not confirm it if it was true either.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:52
@Red Ranter: As long as you have “real” job that answers my question… I was just wondering if you were living large off this site…
November 10th, 2009 at 6:54
@[OPTI]Madschester United: If I was full time, I wouldn’t be updating this sporadically.
November 10th, 2009 at 6:57
http://www.rbj.net/article.asp?aID=181817
“In late June, Harbinger took a 51.3 percent ownership stake in Zapata, buying nearly 9.9 million shares from Glazer family members,…Harrbinger paid $7.50 a share.”
That is 7.5 * 9.9*10^6 = $75 million this past June after selling Ronaldo.
It seems like Glazers indeed are in trouble financially… which means Utd is in trouble…
November 10th, 2009 at 7:37
@[OPTI]Madschester United: I think we always knew what we have got us into. I for one feel that all of us had some idea about what these debts means. I mean now I hear that debts are as high as GBP 700mn while if my memory serves me right then it were in the range of GBP 550-600 mn when this LBO happened. So, after the most successful three years period in recent history we have actually not managed pay of a single penny of it. Infact it has incremented further. Add a one or two relatively bad season and we will be in big mess.
I think we always say and feel and quite rightly so that how big and better we are compared to Dippers. Now, I have to say very sadly that even in the debt mess we are far bigger than them. And if I want to point out one then the frightening thing is a small club with costing of GBP500mn can be bought but a big club with costing of more than a bn can’t be bought that easily.
And as far as fears are concerned they were always there looming on our head but we were trying to bury it deep down somewhere. But, with all these articles are comming across now we are really trying to accept what can be a very bleak future if things are sorted out in time… I really hope BIG time that Its not another LEEDS in the making….
November 10th, 2009 at 7:41
@Red Ranter: And that’s why I admire this place so much and I am one of the many addicts here. I mean even though this is not a full time work for you are really doing a great job mate keeping it under control and maintained over a period of time. I agree that articles and news may not be updated on time but for that we have other sources and who says its not updated all the regulars here do that job for you isn’t it. I mean anything happening around the concerning Man UTD is getting mentioned and debated here as well.
I really appreaciate all the efforts you and other regulars are putting in it….
CHEERS mate…..Continue the great work….
November 10th, 2009 at 7:51
@Red Ranter: I am happy you are in charge of redrants.com. You are doing a great job!
One thing I would like added would be poll once in a while — just to gauge general redrants.com viewpoints in a compact fashion. For example, pre-season predictions of team location at xmas and end of season. Who is going to be our surprise player of the year. etc… It would add some interesting results I am sure (and gauge the total number of readers on this blog)…. just an idea
November 10th, 2009 at 7:56
@Red Ranter: I would like to give you one suggestion matey regarding couple of thing.
I saw the list of (I think….) telegraph where you were (rather I should say we all were) ranked in Top 10 Man UTD sites. And there they have mentioned that the news bit and article don’t keep the pace (don’t remember the exact wordings), which to an some extent I agree. OK what keep this place alive is you and all the regulars here are cheaping in with all the views and reviews.
But, I was just wondering one thing, I don’t know whether its practical or not but, why can’t you nominate people (regulars) from this very blog to do certain job.
I mean for Example, Traverse I always find that he has some breaking news here and there which he normally shares with us before any one else, Dan we all know about his knowledge and views about the reserve, And who doesn’t know about the Grogy and Redrich…
Why not let this people take some or the responsibility voluntarily (of course if they are free and available to this) and have some kind of access to this place where in they can actually contributing in form of Articles or News bit as well…
What it will do is (in my view) this will keep this place alive more even in form of articles and news as well, secondly it will give due justice to all the people who want to chip in something serious and the most importantly it will attract new people here which will definitely increase the popularity of the place. In the end thats what we all want.. We wnat more and more Man UTD people here…
See I am a part of one such blog from our profession of course in India where in Administrator/Moderator has delegated the some responsibilities to other people. I don’t know whether is it possible practically but one things for as no one doing all this for earning MONEY i think this can be done…
Whatever your opinion is please reply to it with what you feel…..
I would also welcome the opinions from others as well………
November 10th, 2009 at 7:58
@[OPTI]Madschester United: Good Ideas bro actually i was also thinking of some ways to make this place even better. I really feel this place has already become a part of my life. And we all to improve the things which you feel are important in your life isn’t it???
November 10th, 2009 at 8:00
@Red Ranter: I don’t know if I was right in putting these all suggestion in public domain but this was the only way I could have interacted with you…
Its just that I feel this is part of life so I wanted to make already great place even better…
So, apologies if i was wrong to put up things publicly but still I would like you to consider the same….
November 10th, 2009 at 8:19
@Onkar: No worries. But for your information (for future consideration), this is not the only way to interact with me. There is a contact tab at the top of the page.
November 10th, 2009 at 8:39
@Red Ranter:
Didn’t see it… But, still I would really like to know what is your take on suggestions I have put across…..
Anyway, will remember about the Contact Tab… Cheers Mate…
November 10th, 2009 at 12:17
only if united had played 50% like this agaisnt liverpool.. RAFA would have been fired.. m happy that did not happen.
November 10th, 2009 at 12:28
@adie: Yeah…. We can say one thing loud and clear….
“IN RAFA WE TRUST”…..
November 10th, 2009 at 15:13
@[OPTI]Madschester United: I fail to see the connection between that article and United specifically. We’ve known for a awhile that the glazers aren’t exactly Arab billionaires, but please don’t try and make some “Michael Moore-esque” connection between two things that may or may not have anything to do with each other.
November 10th, 2009 at 15:25
@[OPTI]Madschester United: Can you please explain to me how the United debt went from under £700m to a little over £1B in a 3 year span where we won 3 titles a CL and a runner up?
I need to see some actual figures before I believe this rubbish. I might believe the glazers are plunged into that sort of debt, but I fail to see how our club is operating at a defecit of £100m a year. Considering our wage bill is at 49% of our income, the club owns Old Trafford a 76k seater stadium that is virtually sold out every game, and the United brand is one of the most valuable in the world.
I’ll be the first to admit I’m no economist, but some of these doomsday scenarios seem a little exagerrated with every UK rag trying to outdo the other.
November 10th, 2009 at 16:05
@Johnsom33:
1. It is suspicious that Tamba Bay is 30 million below salary cap.
2. It is suspicious that Glazers are selling large volume of stock in current market conditions (it is a time for buying stock)
3. The US economy suffered heavily this past year and I am not surprised if the Glazers lost a lot of money
4. It is suspicious that rumors are popping up about the Glazers looking to sell the Tamba Bay buckaneers
5. The 1.8 billion dollars figure was debunked by the Glazer family but if we have not even reduced our debt over the past 3 years of success I think we are in trouble. Unfortunately, the ONLY people that know anything about MUFC finances are the Glazers and they surely will not disclose anything damaging to their enterprises…
I am just saying…
November 10th, 2009 at 18:06
@B: I respect wenger but he has won sweet fuck all and fergi has 11 of 17 prems and 3 on the hop so i think that anything that comes out of the mans mouth is worth a listen no matter who the fuck you are.
November 10th, 2009 at 18:19
@Andy @ Arsenal FC Blog: no worries mate the rest of the world thinks all arsenal fans are delusional ie “arsonologist” bc of the insistence that each year will be the year the kids come good.
United fans are guilty of the same delusion this year with respect to Macheda, wellbeck, dasilva twins, Obertan ect… haha keep the faith mate
November 10th, 2009 at 18:32
@[OPTI]Madschester United: actually it does if those #s are correct(they are not) then the bucks should generate 1.085b + 80m(ron) =1.885b -1.8b(estimated debt) =850k problem solved
if only it were that easy huh?
November 10th, 2009 at 18:36
@[OPTI]Madschester United: sounds like good business they sold shy of 10 million shares for $7.50 when they are trading in the mid 6es?
November 10th, 2009 at 18:41
@Red Ranter: Alright RR we’re clear on that. Lets finally put it to bed. I see your point regarding the Daily Mail, but for me this goes beyond what that rag thinks. Anyway, we’ve both had our say. Peace.
November 10th, 2009 at 18:46
@gator: Where did you learn math?
1.085b+80m = 1,085m + 80m = 1,165m or 1.165b.
1.8b(debt) – 1.165b = $635m
Problem far from solved, if you do that kind of math.
November 10th, 2009 at 18:47
@[OPTI]Madschester United: He respects and likes United but that’s not where he wants to play. Real Madrid is where he wants to be and lets face it, those ass wipes have the money and the stupidity to spend it in order to get him. Do you honestly believe that United can win a bidding war with them or Barcelona if they both really want that player? We don’t have the money. And to be honest, although I am a big Ribery fan, I have lost a lot of respect for him over his attitude at Bayern this year and over his continuing legacy of missing games due to mysterious injuries. Not the kind of player we want or need. I would much prefer David Silva or Gourcuff as my creative midfielder. Cheaper and just as good with less baggage and no desire to go to Madrid.
November 10th, 2009 at 18:52
@Red Ranter: decimals eh
no matter the bucks have plenty of interested parties should they come up for sale which could knock the glazers entire debt out. they are not 1b in debt. i think they have lost interest in the bucks and should let them go so someone can that wants to spent $ on them can.
like this guy Eddie Debartolo
November 10th, 2009 at 18:53
@Red Ranter: Sorry RR, I am not one who likes to have a go at a visitor from another club as long as he behaves himself and isn’t just trolling for trouble. My God there are dozens of Arsenal blogs he can go have his say and be applauded as well, but he shows up here. No mate, he needed to be put in his place. It’s similar to the bloody Jehovah’s Witness freaks knocking on your door and pestering you. You can be nice to them which just means they will hassle you again, or you can tell them to frak off, which is what I used to do until I moved into an apartment. Sorry again for being aggressive with him but that kind of crap just rubs me the wrong way. Someone decides to have a walk and lift his up and sing in No Man’s Land, he’s going to get it shot off.
November 10th, 2009 at 18:56
@Red Ranter:
@gator: Look, I am not saying my numbers are accurate. I am just pointing out behavior by the Glazers that suggests that they are in a money squeeze.
I would still be very worried if, over the past 3 years, we have not put a great dent in our debt (united’s debt) – we won a champions league, 3 epl titles, carling cup, world club cup, $1 million Saudi trip, world record transfer fees and we still have AT LEAST 500 million in debt (unless you can tell me something else).
There has been no update from the Glazers since the banks starting claiming their interest payments and with the current economic crisis there is very little leniency from banks… so I am a worried about the state of our financial affairs.
Can anyone enlighten me with some confidential figures and secrets from the Glazer family?
November 10th, 2009 at 18:56
@[OPTI]Madschester United: First off, there is not guarantee he would come to United if he chose England. Ribery is a classic example of a mercenary. He has loyalty to only one person and thats Franck Ribery. If Chelsea were willing to pay him more than United, trust me, he would choose them in a split second. This guy has no loyalty whatsoever. Not even reuniting with his long lost borther Gary Neville is enough motivation for him to join us.
November 10th, 2009 at 18:59
@Grognard: Ok, I see your point. With Robinho heavily rumored for Barca, I see only Utd and RM going for Ribery — and you are right RM will likely get him with Van Der Vaart going back to Deutschland. You are right — we do not want the attitude that Ribery brings (if he comes out and states that he is a United fan and would love to play for us, then I will change my mind and will drool at the prospects of bringing him on-board)… he is an amazing player.
November 10th, 2009 at 19:01
@Grognard: I do not agree that he would go to chelsea over utd. We were paying Ronaldo the largest salary in the league before he left and tevez is gone too so we can match ANY team’s salaries. Plus, I think the choice for Ribery is United or Real Madrid — -chelsea are under-achievers.
November 10th, 2009 at 19:04
@[OPTI]Madschester United: Of course they would debunk the statement because they are nothing but lying snakes in the grass. Thye are going to destroy United unless somebody with big bucks comes a knocking sooner rather than later because as I see it, the profits keep coming for the team but the debt keeps getting larger. What does that tell you? It tells me that the profits are going into Swiss bank accounts for the Glazer’s where nobody can get at them. They are syphoning off all the money from United and having us operate in the the deep red so that they can make back the money they lost to Bernie Madoff. Operate United at a debt by making the bare minimum allowable in debt payments while the profits mysteriously disappear as they do not go to towards reducing the debt or to improving the team on the field. We are in deep dire straights lads as long as Mancunia allows these fucking assholes to own the club. Christ how I despise the ground they walk on.
November 10th, 2009 at 19:16
@Grognard: Is there anyone “leaking” financial info about United to the press or on United blogs… there’s gotta be one informant… every organization has one…
I really want to know how bad it is.
November 10th, 2009 at 19:31
@[OPTI]Madschester United: No coincidence that this happened after the Ronaldo sale. Just confirms what I said from day one, that Fergie wasn’t going to get a dime of that money for players because it was going to go into the Glazer’s pockets. What’s even worse is that one could at least respect the attempt to pay off a portion of that debt with the money, but the money never went there either.
This reminds me of the infamous Peter Pocklington, who used to be the owner of the Edmonton Oilers NHL hockey club at the time when Edmonton had the great Wayne Gretzky. Pocklington was well known around Edmonton as a very crooked businessman, a slumlord and as unscrupulous as they come. He came to Edmonton after with nothing and soon after had become a billionaire because of his wheeling and dealing. He bought the Edmonton Oilers and under him the team won five Stanley Cups and was the greatest hockey team in the world. Edmontonians were luckybecause at that time all our great players were young, Canadian and had no mercenary ambitions. They were paid very little other than Gretzky and they tolerated it because they locved the winning and they felt part of a family thanks to the coach Glen Sather.
But after having won their fourth cup in five years, Pocklington decided to do the unthinkable. He was mired in personal debt as many of his businesses and investments had all gone south on him and he needed money fast. So he traded Wayne Gretzky (the Ronaldo of hockey, Hell, the Pele of hockey) to the LA Kings for a few players and an awful lot of money. Money he promised the city of Edmonton would go back into rebuilding the team. The city did not trust him of course and the people of Edmonton and Canadians in general were shocked and appalled (people in Calgary, Edmonton’s provincial rival however were seen dancing in the streets) that their national treasure had been sold for useless players and money that they all knew was going to never go towards rebuilding the Oilers.
Well as it turned out, the money never did go towards the Oilers and Peter Pocklington was now the most unpopular man in the city. Nobody liked him, his previous business associates wanted nothing to do with him because any dealing with him, hurt their business and exposure with the public. One Edmontonian went as far as to enter Pocklington’s house and hold him and his family hostage as he wanted justice due to the suffering he had incurred over one of Pocklington’s business deals. He went on to hold the family hostage for hours and actually shot Pocklington in the arm before he was captured. Funny thing about that man, while only a few months in prison, he was brutally beaten in his cell by other convicts. One came out and said it was a contract hit paid for by Pocklington.
Anyway, the point to my story is that I see certain similarities to what Pocklington had done to United and what the Glazer’s are presently doing to United. Sure, Ronaldo wanted to go to Madrid while Gretzky didn’t want to leave Edmonton, but what about the money? It seems the money for both superstars seems to have gone into the pockets of the owner and has never been used to help the manager buy replacement players.
The Glazer’s don’t care about Manchester, and Pocklington never gave a damn about Edmonton. He was eventually forced to not only leave Edmonton but take his business interests outside of Canada as he was bitterly hated by the community he betrayed and the country who looked at Wayne Gretzky as their treasure. A player who was not just great, but who helped put Edmonton and Canada on the world map due to his recognized name and exposure. Why is Manchester and it’s fans allowing the glazer’s to sell our great team down the creek? Why are they not up in arms demanding that they sell the team to worthy buyers? Why are there not demonstrations outside of OT? Why? Why? Why?
November 10th, 2009 at 19:37
@Johnsom33: Ah come on mate, conspiracy theories make the world go round and they are fun to boot.
And I for one happen to love Michael Moore. Why? Because he tells the sad truth.
November 10th, 2009 at 19:39
@Grognard: Mate, he shows up here because I let him. And I dealt with him. If I didn’t you had some justification. And I get to decide here who is the troll. So please understand this, and move on.
November 10th, 2009 at 19:45
@Johnsom33: It starts form borrowing against the team mate. They may be borrowing money from banks to solve their liquidity at home in America and are using the stability of United’s money making status as a collateral. United could very well be in that kind of debt and still be the number one money making team in all sports. It’s what happens to those profits that concerns me. When owners borrow from one investment to pay off debts in another, these things can escalate and get way out of hand. Having lost their underwear to Bernie Madoff, they have a lot of recovering to do and they are using Man Utd to get that done. Or they are using Man Utd to create a secure nest-egg for them selves in Swiss banks, so that if things are totally lost in America, they still have personal wealth that nobody can touch.
Have you learned nothing from the Wall Street collapse? American billionaires and investment types will do anything to anyone to survive and make sure they make a profit. The will destroy, cheat and steal. The glazer’s are part of that Wall Street environment and they got burned by it. Now they are trying hard not to pay off their debts, but to recover their own wealth.
November 10th, 2009 at 19:47
@[OPTI]Madschester United: Tampa Bay has not spent money to buy one skilled player since the Glazer’s bought the team. They always operate under the cap and never have never bought skilled players for their offensive skill positions. That alone should be a warning that the Glazer’s do not care about the team’s on field success and that they have no affection or respect for the fans of Tampa. All they care about is the money.
November 10th, 2009 at 19:53
@gator: Eddie Debartolo?
That criminal. That guy did hard time in prison for fraud. Just what Tampa Bay need 
You know this, that he used to own the San Francisco 49er’s of the NFL but was forced to sell because he was going to jail. In fairness to him, the 49er’s were the best team in football under his ownership and he always bought the best players to add to his drafted stars. But still, with money the man is more unscrupulous than the Glazer’s. Criminal with a capital C.
November 10th, 2009 at 19:55
@[OPTI]Madschester United: I wouldn’t dismiss Chelsea from going after him either now that their ban has been lifted. Convenient that they get their ban lifted but we can’t even get an injustice like a yellow or red card for Fletcher lifted.
November 10th, 2009 at 19:57
@[OPTI]Madschester United: Chelsea are in first place mate and they have Ancelotti as manager. A man who carries a lot of clout and pedigree with him. Also, he is known for being a manager who loves veteran players. Add to this that Roman has much more money at his disposal and can easily outbid us for any player he wants. Where is united going to get the money for Ribery? Please, tell me?
November 10th, 2009 at 19:59
@[OPTI]Madschester United: So would I? The Glazer’s have always been very good at keeping their financial information secret. They hire people close to the money that they can trust and who are just like them.
November 10th, 2009 at 20:00
@Red Ranter: I have moved on mate. You keep bringing it up just because you want the last word. You know Grggy gets the last word.
November 10th, 2009 at 20:10
@Grognard: i could care less about anything but his money. If he gives it to the glazers and it cancels out their debt united are better off. bucks would be better too as he likes to spend $ to win ala the 69ers
November 10th, 2009 at 20:27
@gator: 69’s??? you mean 49’s
November 10th, 2009 at 20:52
@[OPTI]Madschester United: another math mistake
November 10th, 2009 at 20:54
@Grognard: I don’t have a problem with you having the last words as long as they are: “I agree with you, mein fuhrer”
November 10th, 2009 at 20:55
@gator: Can’t blame you. After all, the Gators are Number 1 in College Football. Not college math.
November 10th, 2009 at 20:59
@Red Ranter: Watch out for Cincinnati, my alma mater!!
November 10th, 2009 at 21:32
@Grognard: My head would quite literally explode if Gourcuff came here. As some here have shown (as I’ve been told) to be Nani and Berbatov enthusiasts, there’s nobody with a more unnecessary love for a player than mine for a one Yoann Gourkizzle.
That aside, I was thinking about something regarding the Obertan transfer. He’s obviously rife with quality and at least Blanc felt that he was good enough to both make the bench and play in the Champions League last season. Two of those games against Chelsea. For whatever reason he was loaned out for the second half of the season and then finds his way here. From the U-21 matches that I’ve seen him in to the reserve matches, the first team matches for Bordeaux, and his time with us in the 1st team, the quality (in my eyes) is there in spades. He just needs some time to gel as all players do. Some might debate that and point to Rafa and Fabio but I think he’s ready now.
At any rate, Blanc lets him go for £3m? That’s quite the steal. Then a friend who’s an avid follower of Ligue 1 suggests that maybe that could say something about Blanc’s managerial future. I’m not gonna jump the gun and say it’s definite but he’s alway spoken highly of Fergie from his time playing for United, still keeps in touch, and in some circles it was posited that he might be in the running to take up Fergie’s post after he retires (whenever that is) and looking at what’s he’s been able to do with Bordeaux in the past three seasons and the style of football that I’ve seen them play (of course I watch them every chance I get) I certainly wouldn’t mind it at all.
If he does come, could a one Yoann Gourcuff perhaps follow. At the very least I hope that Zidane doesn’t get in his head and convince him to go to the Bernabéu. As far as the big names that sell shirts are concerned (and that’s really all that Madrid seems to care about) Gourcuff is, as crazy as it seems, not even on the causal fans radar at all. A good showing at the WC could change that (assuming France makes it) but it doesn’t really seem like Madrid could find a place for in him in the starting 11. Then again that’s what I thought about Benzema and, for the most part, he’s done fuck all.
November 10th, 2009 at 21:40
@Sam Davis: Rooney – heart = Benzema
Now that is math you believe in
November 10th, 2009 at 21:47
@[OPTI]Madschester United: I’m kind of in agreement with that but I really like Benzema and thought he could’ve done really well for us in a strictly attacking role. Couldn’t play him, Berba, and Rooney at the same time though.
To be fair I think he’s a better finisher than Rooney is now (perhaps that’s got something do with Rooney doing a bit of everything nowadays) and he’s got a bit of size on him too.
Guess the bright lights of The Bernabéu got to him though and he thought that was the better option. Every time I see him play though, he’s always in position to set up goals (and rarely does) and never scoring them.
November 10th, 2009 at 21:50
@Red Ranter: Now RR, you know that when we are truly honest, I am the fuhrer around here. My German leanings should make it that obvious.
November 10th, 2009 at 21:55
ah Yoann its like a wet dream seeing him in red. but you know how that goes~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQ32AnGleIY
November 10th, 2009 at 22:05
@Sam Davis: Boy after reading a book like Soccernomics, my views on teams, managers and players has radically changed. The fact and evidence show me and millions of others who think they know the game to be wrong. I’m not as wrong as many others but there are preconceived beliefs that I have had when it comest to our team buying players and the hiring of managers that is now ashess to the wind.
Gourcuff is exactly what we need because of his skill but most importantly, his age and the price we can get him for. Although he won;’t be cheap, I think we can get him for less than his market value because of Fergie’s outstanding relationship with Laurent Blanc. And I have said this before, but now I even make more of a case for it that Laurent Blanc should be a serious contender as successor to Fergie because he is so much more than a manager.
RR will no what I mean when I say that I honestly wished that Manchester United was not this big brand and was operated much more like Lyon. I think their way of doing business makes so much sense that it’s really eye opening. Their model for success is something i see Fergie trying but not succeeding because he hasn’t mastered it fully. On the other hand Bordeaux is also a small club that is achieving great things because they have a owner and manager who have a grand vision and who do no think like the dinosaurs that operate in nearly every team in England and the UK. My God, after reading that book I have so much more respect for Arsene Wenger as he has a modern grasp on how to succeed in the modern game.
I also learned that whatever you pay for a player like Gourcuff or Silva etc, there is never enough money that shouldn’t be spent on a great goalkeeper. Therefore, anything less than Adler or Neuer is not acceptable. And the Lyon model tells me that United are making stupid decisions by buying so many players under 20. Like Obertan, success over there is measured by buying players for under their market value who are between 20 and 22. Anybody under that age comes with too many question marks and too many things can go wrong and anybody over that age limit costs too much. Therefore, it makes sense to think that the one player of all these young guns who will probably have a lasting and successful career with us is none other than Obertan. Fascinating stuff.
November 10th, 2009 at 22:08
@Sam Davis: The thing holding Benzema back is his attitude and ego. Too many people like Benzema and others have gotten into his head and told him how great he is and he has made the mistake of believing it. Once that happens you stop working as hard, you lose your humility and you believe you are above everyone else. Once that started to happen, he was dirt in the eyes of Lyon and they knew that the time was right to sell while his market value was still higher than his real value.
November 10th, 2009 at 22:11
@ROOOOONEY: Truly amazing skill on the ball. Name one United midfielder that has not only that kind of touch, dribbling skill, finesse and vision, but the ability to score goals too? The answer………..NOBODY!
November 10th, 2009 at 22:21
On a very sad note regarding German goalkeepers, Robert Enke has died in what is believed to have been a suicide.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091110/ap_on_sp_so_ne/soc_obit_enke
November 11th, 2009 at 1:05
@Red Ranter: dont tell anyone i was a finance major
November 11th, 2009 at 1:08
@[OPTI]Madschester United: haha thats pretty funny mate
November 11th, 2009 at 1:11
Barcelona cant afford robinho
November 11th, 2009 at 11:48
@Grognard: I dont think we should be too worried about our debt. Yes, Glazers dont buy this club becouse they are fans of United, but they bought it as a investition. Without own money, only with loans. When they pay back loans, they got a moneymachine. We are not yet in the best shape to produce money, but commercialy we have progressed very well. You could see it. We have got a lot of sponsor deals in Asia, Middle East and Afrika. They try to use United brand for commercial deals across the world and that brings a lot of money and it will bring even more money in future.
Back to the loans. Today its better to have debts, than dont. Because the money value is very low and it will be worse. I dont know the structure of loans, but i bet the most of them are in USD. It will be great, because in next few years will be european economic much stronger than american. Europe has the possibility to grow, because of new EU members. So the value of USD loans falls in GBP or EUR. I think this is good for us.
Next think is our collateral for loans are estates. These estates you cant sell today. Banks dont take estates instead of money. Carrington training ground, who would buy this. So its in interest of bank to pay back loans. They would rather negotiate with you how to pay it, and they are able to wait a little bit longer.
The worst thing for us is when we have to pay the debt and dont have enough money to buy better players. Transfer politics to buy only under 26 and foreign youngsters its becouse of this i think. You could find answer for this problem in academy.
November 11th, 2009 at 12:37
@rysho: First of all debts are only good when they can be repaid regularly along with the compulsory interest payment. Moreover I don’t buy into your argument of having debts is some time better than not having it. I think leveraging (specially financial leveraging) only helps when you have scope to earn super normal or I should say above normal profits. Where your IRR is far and I repeat FAR more than your cost of borrowed funds. But in united’s case it doesn’t look like that way (at least prima facie). As when you are barely paying your interest and after doing record Operating profits if you are booking Per tax losses then you can safely say that you have tried to chew more than what you can swallow. This is typical case where more often than not you go for liquidity burst as you go insolvent in short run. Please take note of word short run. This means that you are not able to pay of your revenue expd as well as interest and current liab from your Revenue+ Current assets. This push you to use your long term debt funds for revenue purpose rather than capital purpose which eventually end up in insolvency of the organization.
Now, I am trying to say that this how Man UTD will end all I am saying is having debt won’t always help definitely not in this case. Moreover, I wuld like to point out that how not having debt would have helped us. If we were debt free company like we originally was then all proceeds of Ronaldo money would have got reinvested in the system and players. Now, all of us almost have an idea where that money has gone. Now, (I am not sure about the accounting treatment) my understanding says that what ever profit we made on the sale of Ronaldo was capital gains for which was earned over a period of time. So, this should have got interested in potential assets for the business be it players, stadium, academy etc.. Has it happened??? Answer is big NO. This is clear sign that we are using the proceeds from the sale of an assets to pay of just the interest which clearly suggest that our capital structure what is commonly known as Debt Equity Ratio is already stressed. Moreover, the one should answer the simple question that why after having the best three year period in recent time our debts have actually increased rather than other way around. Which clearly point out towards one thing that we have revalued our debt. Why??? May be because the lenders are not sure about the creditworthiness of the company and they wanted to cover there risk by increasing the cost of funds which resulted in higher debts!!! All these signs show you one thing Leveraging can be good fine but it purely depends on which industry you are a part of. And the kind of leveraging we are forced into is definitely not helping us for sure.
November 11th, 2009 at 12:43
@rysho: And further more I don’t agree that banks won’t be interested in the land that has been mortgage with them. They won’t take any action until two events…
We are servicing debts (at least interest component on time) and the current valuation of that is lower than what they have valued while mortgaging the same…
But some day if both things reveres then they may opt to take charge of that land for the money that they need to recover….
I think things might be clearer for you now then they were….
All in all in Short
“Financial Leveraging as whole is not bad but in case of Man UTD it is definitely hurting us big time. We have tried chewing more than what we can swallow that’s all”
November 11th, 2009 at 16:39
A bit off-topic but how do you guys here normally keep up with the comments section of different posts? Do you just periodically come back to the site to see if new comments have been added or is it possible to subscribe to an RSS feed of sorts specifically for the comments, drop it in Google Reader, for instance, and follow it that way?
I see the “notify me of followup comments via e-mail” box below but is there another way that won’t clog up your inbox?
November 11th, 2009 at 23:51
@Onkar: you are still speculating that the ronaldo money is NOT available.
The only “official statements” that i have seen say that 60 of the 80 were made available to saf along with our normal 25 for the summer transfer window, and that all unused funds roll over to the next transfer window.
Even Sir Alex has said that the money was available but he didnt use it so the kids could get a chance to step up and i agree with this idea. macheda, wellbeck, da silvas, obertan, nani, anderson, and others all have a chance to save United lots of money by becoming united class.
All of these kids could come good if given the chance/if they take it. If not i expect like every other united fan to see close to 100m pounds spent next year and some that arent cutting it to be sold.
This is when we will know if we have the money or not. I have seen no evidence or statement that states differently yet.