Apr 03
Should United keep Brown?
Sir Alex must have been behind plenty of transfers in his time in football. It adds up: a new centre-back every three years or so, countless midfielders, even more goalkeepers and a few strikers, but one position he has not touched in a while has been the right-back position.
Gary Neville has been a rock for United in that position for longer than I have been following football and when he is not there, then there was always a reliable back-up from the youth system who could step right in and do a half-decent job. He was usually replaced by his brother, Phil, but after he was gone, Wes Brown made the position of second-choice right-back his own.
Actually Brown is not really good as a right-back and could not challenge Vidic — who imposed himself as one of the most commanding centre-backs in the world — for the central defender position in two life times. He is therefore stuck as a second-choice player for Manchester United and it does not look likely that anything will change for him in the near future unless he leaves the club.
Thus, it can be safe to assume that Brown will be better off if he leaves the club. However Manchester United know that Brown is not unwilling to stay at the club — provided he is offered more money — and the decision they must now make is whether or not they should offer Brown the financial terms he demands to stay at the club.
Actually Brown finds himself in a good position. His contract expires this summer and he can move elsewhere for more football if he cannot force Manchester United to show him the money. So Sir Alex might be asking himself if Brown is worth the extra 30k per week he wants.
Brown has been performing at right-back all season and he has probably earned the rating “not a failure” for his efforts — which is hardly flattering. Given our relative impotence in this position and the fact that Neville has not kicked a ball for a year (and he is getting very old), we can safely assume Ferguson will go shop for a right-back this summer.
That will push Brown as third in the pecking order on the right side of the defence, though he will probably continue to be second choice behind Vidic and Rio. We all know that Brown is Man Utd quality at the heart of the defence, but Pique too is promising and O’Shea showed us that he can do the job on Tuesday. Then there is also that French lad, Silvestre. He is quite capable of being a back-up too.
So Brown is not exactly needed by the team when you think about it. He is a luxury. He is better than all other defenders in the team except Evra, Rio and Vidic. The impending arrival of Neville’s successor practically means that we will have the best second-choice defender in the league by a mile.
Is that kind of luxury necessary at the cost of another world-class player, because, if we do keep Brown, there will be less wages available this summer — and maybe less transfer funds?
So do you think we should keep Brown? Now I give you the keyboards.
Related items from Red Rants:
- Manchester United confirm new contracts for Brown, Ferdinand and Carrick
- The Defensive Dilemma
- Aston Villa 0-2 Manchester United: Ronaldo and Rooney complete a late win
- The Red Exodus | Rio Sure of Ron | Neville v Brown and Other Tales
- Aston Villa v Man Utd:Preview
Tags: Manchester United Players · Opinions/Columns
April 3rd, 2008 at 10:10
I think we should keep brown at all cost cos he’s been good this season and i’d choose him over pique any day, gary’s time at the club is in it’s closing years so its a tough choice but £30k a week over 4 years is £4m which is still cheaper than splashing out £8m plus wages plus expecting him to migrate to PL’s level of play i personally would not change that for a player that has cos us nothing in transfer fees and the fact he’s a product of our youth team should make us keep him!!
April 3rd, 2008 at 10:23
Watta shit article…
he wont be 3rd choice..wen for the whole season hes first choice.
he has decent performance in every game..
yes saf might be loking for a new rb but brown is actually capapble of playing for manchester united.
why would we let go off him now..
April 3rd, 2008 at 10:35
More importantly – any update on Vidic injury..? I fear no news is bad news…
April 3rd, 2008 at 10:36
I love brown as much as I do any other United player I wish he stays BUT if him staying would cost us renewing Rio and/or Evra or from brining new faces in the club than goodluck Brown and see you later.
April 3rd, 2008 at 10:44
And let’s not forget that the reason for Brown asking for extra cash is for parity between him and the other perennial back-up, John O’Shea. He’s not actually being greedy, he just wants to step up to the same level as other benchwarmers, particularly since he has been an active member of the first team this year.
Personally, I would like to see Brown stay. He’s proven himself to be generally reliable and steady in defence, whether at centre back or right back. I think we’d miss him being there if we lost him for nowt, even if we got another right back in.
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:14
yes, yes, yes, for the love of god, YES! you can’t buy that sort of commitment and versatility (3rd choice center-back and 1st choice right-back even if Neville returns)
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:33
One thing that brown has proved all season is reliability and consistency in defence, he might not be the best when going forward but lets not forget that all season he has been part of the meanest defence not just in England but the whole of Europe.
i personnally think he should be rewarded with the extra cash and made to stay, it would be unfair for ronaldo to get a better increased contract term for scoring 30+ goals as fergy promised and forget somebody like brown in whom ronaldo can go forward easily knowing he is well corvered behind.
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:52
I do like Brown, but I also feel he should leave Man Utd. Fergie will buy a right back in the summer, and Big John O’Shea will be a good back-up center back.
April 3rd, 2008 at 12:14
VIDIC OUT FOR 2-3 WEEKS MISSES ARSENAL GAME!! check the official website. If this set in stone he misses 3 games, but all are crucial. Big miss, fingers crossed we dont have a scenario like last year.
April 3rd, 2008 at 12:47
If Vidic is out for 2-3 weeks than hopefully its not so serious, Vidic is a strong boy so he will be back before that hopefully.
April 3rd, 2008 at 13:35
I don’t care. Wes Brown is entirely unremarkable in my eyes. Of Brown’s performances, the one’s I am pleased with are the ones where I barely notice him. Whenever I notice his presence it is usually for something dubious. Sure, he’s loyal. Sure, he’s consistent(whatever that means. If consistent mediocrity is desirable then Brown’s got that.). I just don’t know if we should be in the business of throwing around 70,000 or 80,000 pounds–whatever he actually wants–a week on 30 year-old, second string right fullbacks. He’s a second-choice player on the downside of his career and every minute that he spends on the pitch is a moment better invested in developing younger talent that will benefit the club for the future. I’m all for loyalty and it should be rewarded. That’s why we offered him another contract to begin with. But just because a player has played for one club for a long time doesn’t mean that he is worth more money. Wes Brown is a 50,000 pound a week player holding his favorite club hostage because he wants to be able to hold his head high around his friends. He should come to a realization about his role in the club and his future and come to a reasonable agreement with managment.
April 3rd, 2008 at 13:36
Sign Lahm for right-back, with Neville as back-up (assuming he won’t reach previous levels). Sell Silvestre & possibly Pique (Not sure about him, was dreadful in easy game v Bolton). Sign left-back cover (Suggestions?). That would leave us with Neville, Lahm, Ferdinand, Vidic, Brown, Evans, Evra, RB Cover. Two solid players for each position and O’Shea as the usual stop-gap for Defense or Midfield.
April 3rd, 2008 at 14:00
yes please.. utd needs more local lads playing for the team. no doubt there are more talented skillful alternatives out there but brown’s heart belongs to utd and that instills a greater sense of passion higher than any other out there (next to the neviller of cos)
April 3rd, 2008 at 14:01
Real worried bout our defence without Vida……praying Van Persies injury will keep him out of our up n coming tie
I know its unlikely to happen but i reckon Pique has to be in the team in Vidas absence. Whether its at right back of center half. The boy is classy n needs game time before we lose him to another top club
April 3rd, 2008 at 14:10
it’s not arsenal we should be worried about, it’s chelsea.
April 3rd, 2008 at 14:14
Pique is too slow for me.Yeah we must keep brown
April 3rd, 2008 at 14:40
vidic should be back against chelsea so if liverpool can do us a favour against arsenal we should be ok!
April 3rd, 2008 at 15:08
Patrick I think you’re being slightly unfair. Brown has been more than consistently mediocre, he has played an important part this season, with his no nonsense tackling and his much improved forward play (he’s even got a few assists, and a goal v. the scousers).
We should offer Wesley his higher contract. Here’s an interesting article by Scott on the topic, which I totally agree with. http://therepublikofmancunia.com/united-contracts-becks-truth-and-taking-the-ps-out-of-brown/
As for him being a “luxury” Andrei, I disagree. A back up defender of his quality is a must. He is a better defender than both O’Shea and (at the moment) Pique and Evans, and even if we do buy a new right back next season, Wes will be invaluable back up for both there (as we must assume Neville will be injured for most of the season) and in the centre. It is crucial you have a class 3rd choice centre back, and he is the closest we have to that at the moment. Remember last season’s defensive crisis? It’s even threatening to happen again now, with Neville not fully fit and Vidic out- Brown is crucial, and even if there was a new right back here at the moment Brown would be playing in the centre as replacement for Vidic.
April 3rd, 2008 at 15:10
Hargo and Simmo are good enough cover at right-back, but Simmo cant be first choice yet. For immediate replacement, if Brown leaves at the end of the season, Fergie would probably go for Lahm or Bosingwa. I wonder how Simpson’s future will be affected with the arrival of the Silva twins at OT, plus the new right-back.
Personally, I would give him a chance to make that position his own in the first team.
I think Blatter wouldnt rest until he enforces the “6 out of starting 11 should be English” law, and letting Simpson grow instead of buying new blood all the time will be the way to go.
April 3rd, 2008 at 15:26
2-3 weeks for Vidic, that’s fantastic news! After reading yesterday that they couldn’t scan because the swelling was too big, I feared the worse. I was resigned to hearing he had suffered a cruciate ligament tear or something, and would be out for 6 months. 2-3 weeks is nothing, it’s obviously only a minor injury. We should be OK against Roma at home, given our 2-0 lead, and JOS covered admirably in Rome. The game that concerns me is Arsenal at OT. Vidic usually eats their kids for breakfast. Arsenal aren’t playing that well though, so we should be able to beat them regardless.
2-3 weeks – fucking sweet!
April 3rd, 2008 at 15:37
So, our priority is renewing EVRA ’s and RIO ’s contract and then we should look if there’s a better choice-transfer.I think that Manchester United board have the money -yes THEY ARE RICH RICH RICH- so as to keep BROWN RIO EVRA AND BUY ONE MORE. Even if SAF wants Brown stay the cash is there.We should buy some FRENCH or ITALIAN full back and . Then Neville should stop football , Silvestre should be sold and we should keep BROWN and PIQUE AS BACK UP. That’s the easy way
April 3rd, 2008 at 15:42
Yes, I am being unfair, you’re right.
April 3rd, 2008 at 16:04
Great news on vidic, he does not get injuries that often so i reckon he will recover in about 2 weeks, he will be missed at roman but we should win that, and he will be missed at arsenal but with the form we are in, if they score against us, we will probably score 9 against them so its all good!
April 3rd, 2008 at 16:20
I like Brown but he makes a lot of mistakes and lacks an end produce when going foward we need to buy someone like Bosigwa he’s having a good season for Porto and he won’t cost us too much!
April 3rd, 2008 at 16:27
Patrick – for a right back, when you barely notice him it means that at least he is doing his defensive part of the game.
I’m amazed at the number of people not cosidering Wes Brown as quality. We all know he’s awful going forward.
Yet so was Heize at his “supposed” peak playing for Utd., he was slow, always commited himself way too easily and hence got often passed by. But because he hustled and bustled everybody fawned over him crying “Argentina! Argentina!”
Brown is not show, he is a loyal servant, dependable in the mould of a Denis Irwin. (Note: I am not comparing his skills to that of the legendary LB, just his attitude)
And a few years back he was conceding the odd own goal. That too he has eradicated, at least for this season.
I would not play him first choice centre back.
Pique? Off – slow slow slow, at such a young age its not good, especially considering the pace of the EPL.
Silvestre? Off. Never the most comfortable player on the ball
O’Shea did well in Rome. I think its time to stop playing him as DM, and stick him to 2 positions or he may end up like P.Neville.
Lahm should definitely come.
THankfully Hargo can provide some backup.
I would nonetheless take the Evra situation with more caution as LBs are harder to find than RBs.
Finally I’m worried about the situation with all those youths being bought to backup the future, yet most of the fail to make the grade to the first team. THe last one who nearly made it was Rossi. With the reserves being so bad, I would definitely think twice about joing United if I were a sixteen year old. (Nani and Anderson don’t count – their price tags made sure of that)
Hopefully the Silva twins will make the grade what with the Portuguese speaking contingent.
April 3rd, 2008 at 16:45
I don’t think we can pass judgement on Pique yet. Frankly, I think our top priority this summer should be getting a through and through striker. We have excellent forwards, but we need a target striker in order to become more multi-dimensional, especially when substituting. As for the FB position goes, I think SAF, Charlie, and Gill need to determine whether Neville is good for another year and whether Simmo is adequate as a backup. We should not be held hostage by any player for money they may not deserve under any circumstances. SAF has a history of weeding out problem players, and if this turns into a major distraction, Brown will be off. As far as possible FBs go, I think Lahm’s ability to move up the sidelines would fit in nicely with our attacking style. Plus, he and Hargo have played together, so they would complement each other immediately. Otherwise, does anybody know whether Miguel Veloso is capable of playing RB? We have a massive surplus of MFs already and don’t really need him there, but he has stated interest in coming to OT, and I wonder if Charlie/Ronny/Nani would be able to convince him to come and play RB.
April 3rd, 2008 at 16:54
RR, we shouldnt get bothered of less wages this summer because Brown has signed a new contract. All SAF and Gary Neville should do (as a team captain i guess he has love for the club) is to agree amicably and let Gary retire, that will means part of his wages will top up what Brown now gets and the balance will go to one of the summer recruits if any.
I know a player like Manucho with all his skill will start with a salary of around 30 or 35K per week. Yet Brown needs an increment of 30K per week on his current wages, now that doesnt total to the 80k which Gary get per week. Further still we have Mr.Glass (Saha) who get 75K per week.Its his time to go on so his wages too will cater for any world class player we bring in in the summer.
Should Brown stay and get a pay rise? I yah yah with a magnanimus YES
April 3rd, 2008 at 16:59
It’s time for Wes Brown to go. There I said it. Yes Brown has been a great servant and has been very good this season. Still, his agent’s contract negotiation strategy has been a joke and Wes himself has allowed it to happen. I can understand the fact that the lad wants to be assured of a starting spot, but asking for more money when he still hasn’t perfected the role of a RB is going to far. There are players behind him in the pecking order who are dying to get their chance full time like O’Shea, Fletcher, Park etc and they don’t bitch or have their agent bitch for them. The bottom line is that United is either going to buy another more accomplished and more talented RB like Lahm or Bosingwa or they will do something like play Hargreaves there. Brown will once again be a reserve. In that scenario I feel for the lad and therefore, I think it is in his and United’s best interest to move on. United can scout for decent backup or go with Simpson, Hargo or Neville for that matter.
Wes Brown has earned his opportunity to remain a starter, but just not with United. Although he is no embarrassment for us, United should always strive to improve itself on the pitch and there are players who can handle the position of RB better than him. Let him move on and thank him for his years of service. After all, we are not talking about Rio or Vidic here. Proper perspective and understanding that the money he is asking for is unreasonable and that it can go towards paying a better player. Right now I would be more concerned about signing Evra.
April 3rd, 2008 at 17:02
I think that Brown has been an integral part of the best back four we have ever had.
He has also improved his attacking play. He scored against Liverpool and the cross for the
second goal against Roma came from him. If he goes we would need to spend transfer money on a
right back when the priority would be to buy a new world class striker. I say give him a deal!
April 3rd, 2008 at 17:06
That is great news for Vidic and United. I was pretty sure it was a hyper extension of the knee so 2 to 3 weeks is about right. Not only could we have lost him for the entire season but this late on, we could have had another Gary Neville scenario. I am elated.
April 3rd, 2008 at 17:40
you have to wonder though, we are in a key position to set a new record for goals conceded in a season, if nevile was fit and available from the beginning would we have conceded less? or even more, if brown was good going forward, would ronaldo(and our stikers) score as much goals, would he(they) score less? i believe that if its not broken, dont fix it, we have been in unbelievable form for the last few weeks and for a change, have taken that form into europe which i feel is an accomplishment. i think brown should stay and if he does go i would expect at-least 6-8 million for him and not a players salary like newcastle offered.
April 3rd, 2008 at 17:47
Vidic will be missed!! I know it could have been worse but 2-3 is only a safeguard estimate. It all depends on when they feel he can come back. I’m guessing the medical staff will rush him towards the chelsea game, or the possible CL semi-final first leg. I’m confident of any UTD player coming in, but at this crucial stage splitting up the finest CB partnership in the EPL if not the world is worrying. We Collapsed last year remember!
I want Brown to stay on!! Im aware of his attributes and weekneses but he’s a good squad member. I always find myself explaining to my friends that players like O’Shea, Fletch, Silvestre and Brown are as important as key members. Okay they haven’t got the talent but they are the spine of UTD they make us unique to the big 4, We have always had loyal fringe players that have given there all(Ole, P.Nev, Butt, McClair etc)
I disagree with players banging on about contracts but Rio, Evra and Brown deserve deals big money or not.
Grognard i agree with you partly on Anderson and Tevez, but you must remember that they along with Hargreaves and Nani have never played more than 30 games a season. This is along with the pressures and intensity of an EPL and european campaign. It’s debut seasons so i think this is why Fergie is rotating between these four. I think Hargo will come in more now as he seems the most refreshed, Andy has burnt out but his talent hasn’t & Tevez will feature more now depending on rival formations.
April 3rd, 2008 at 17:50
Dan; I think we would have scored more goals but in doing so, we probably would have given up 5 to 10 more goals. Brown deserves credit but it is team defense and especially the play of the Twin Towers Rio and Vidic that is most responsible for our defensive record. I remember numerous times that Brown got beat but nothing came of it. In fact he was beat numerous times against Roma and Rio or EVDS bailed him out of trouble. Lets face it, offensively he is not much to shout about. Neville, Hargo or a new signing would give us even more width and speed down the right side.
April 3rd, 2008 at 17:54
yea that it was quite true(roma) so would you say we are playing with a 3 man defence sometimes this season?
April 3rd, 2008 at 18:39
AGP, actually history is on your side. Real Madird crumbeled when the likes of Pavon left the club and now Barcelona has an all star line-up which is considerably weaker than the ‘team’ they had in Rijkaards second season at the club. You could argue that one of the factors that led to their dip is the departure or disappearance of the likes of Gio, Giuly and Sylvinho.
That being said, it looks like we should keep a so-so player which keeps the team together rather than move for an world class player which could disrupt the balance of the team in the long run.
Dan, you should probably note that Brown’s contract expires at the end of the season and he will be free to join any club he wishes with no compensation for United. Your quoted 6-8 million will not happen (unfortunately) unless we offer him a new contract.
April 3rd, 2008 at 18:50
[Grognard]
You said: “There are players behind him in the pecking order who are dying to get their chance full time like O’Shea, Fletcher, Park etc…”
Then doesn’t it sound a little unfair that O’Shea gets paid more wages than Brown? Last I heard, Brown was asking for parity with the likes of O’Shea by demanding 50k. Fletch is 24 and has quite sometime left in his contract, while we renewed Park’s contract before Nani, Anderson and co came over — so wait till we see what his agent will have to say.
Brown could be moved, but look at our alternatives. Neville’s age is not going to see him play every game. Pique, while being a decent defender, is as slow as Brown moving forward. Any new player will take time to get settled in new surroundings — especially if we want to get off the blocks straightaway next season.
My point is this: Brown has been treated unfairly by fans for all his work this season. He has cut countless potential crosses into defence from the wings. His versatility along with O’Shea has ensured we never fall short of adequate options at any time in our season. Just look at Chelsea where new defenders were expected to adapt straightaway as cover.
I am not saying that he’s phenomenal. But for heaven’s sake at least recognise his contribution. And this is not directed at you Grognard, but at a lot of people who conveniently ignore his status. He actually is a good defender and would easily walk into most clubs as a starter. He is easily one of the best back up defenders in the Premier League. And it is our depth that is winning us the title this time.
April 3rd, 2008 at 18:50
dont know about you guys, but Hargreaves has impressed me greatly playing in the right back slot, no one seems to get the better of him and he gets up and down the flank with great energy and has good delivery.
If I was SAF I would seriously consider playing him there for the rest of the season, hes quicker and more mobile than Brown and would be an improvement in my opinion having played there before for Bayern.
April 3rd, 2008 at 18:54
[Jay Jay]
I didn’t write the article
April 3rd, 2008 at 19:43
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap_HyDjb5r4 someone told me about this tevez clip, i think this needs to be his new celebration!!
April 3rd, 2008 at 19:48
In other news, for those of you in the UK (And probably other coutries too) Rangers Vs Sporting Lisbon is on ITV4. Im watching Veloso, he’s started the match at DMC.
April 3rd, 2008 at 20:00
To be frank I agree with Redranter. Brown’s contract is currently out of synch with the rest of the squad. If memory serves me correctly his last contract had a lower base salary than you would expect with a larger than usual proportion based on pay as you play, given his previous injury problems. If reports are to be believed he is asking for parity (or marginally more) than O’Shea, not an unfair request IMO.
From an economic viewpoint letting him go for nothing makes no sense, as we lose an asset for nothing and we will have to shell out at least £10m for a replacement. Quite frankly this is gross carelessness from the club’s point of view. A contract should never be allowed to run down to its last year before negotiations start. At that point a player has you over a barrel and this is what you get as a result.
On playing Hargreaves there, I’m not sure I like the idea of playing the £18m midfielder, who was meant to bring drive and security to the midfield, at right back. Square pegs and round holes spring to mind. He should be viewed as cover or a short term fix there, nothing more.
April 3rd, 2008 at 21:09
Very right JB! Brown is justified in punishing the club for not securing him sooner. The management expected Brown to put in the same level of input as previous seasons but he has stepped up this season. He is now valued more and is asking for a contract that reflects that. He’s now starting for England at Right Back as opposed to previous years where selection was iffy at best.
Brown is needed by Man Utd because injuries WILL happen in a season and the likes of Silvestre and John O’shea are not suitable medium or long-term cover. You can’t expect Silvestre to fill in a position for a month (let alone a season) without weakening the squad. Brown provides absolutely essential cover without which we would lose the season. Remember that our second choice Right Back has played there all season and has conceded the fewest goals in a season ever in the premiership (provided they don’t concede anymore). We don’t compete in 45 games a season we compete in 60-70 games a season and expect results in all of them thus we need a large squad!
Its important we keep the majority of our back line. Silverstre should go and Gary Neville isn’t far of retirement either. He’s been injured a whole season and so I question his longevity. Remember what happened to Ole? Never was the same again.
I read this website everyday but I don’t post here too often but when I do, I always shout out the same things: A Large Squad & more Tevez starts. The evidence encourages this theory. Everytime Tevez gets a run in the team we get a lot more goals then when he comes off the bench. Last season we had a tiny squad we didn’t perform to the same level as this season.
What we need to secure our immediate future for a few seasons is replacements for Ole, Saha, Silverstre and Gary Neville. Philip Lahm can provide cover for Gary Neville and Silvestre, while a Benzema type forward for Ole and Manucho for Saha.
April 3rd, 2008 at 23:00
Red Ranter; First thing to consider is that it seems clear to me that Fergie wants a more dynamic player at RB or the rumors for Lahm and Bosingwa would have died long ago. That being the case I think he feels that it would be unfair to the lad to throw him back on the bench after he started the whole season. Sometimes you just have to let go of someone for his own good and development. Wes Brown is good enough to start on 17 of the 20 BPL teams. He is a quality defender and he is flexible too. I’d love to keep him but I honestly cannot see him being happy with a demotion. Is it smart to give a player a raise in pay while demoting him and taking away his starting role? If at some point Fergie decides to cancel his search for a RB, then by all means pay the boy what he is worth and that is that. Otherwise, United need to play fair with him and let him go where he will start and be better utilized. He has paid his dues and now there should no taking two steps back.
I say sign Lahm or Bosingwa and then Neville, Hargreaves, Pique, Simpson and O’Shea can back him up admirably.
JB; 18 mil is a lot to pay a player who was signed as a holding midfielder and then moved over to RB. But the bottom line is that Hargreaves is too good a player to be sitting the bench and the trio of Carrick, Scholes and Anderson are making it difficult for him to play regularly. I personally like the way Scholes and Carrick combine well together so I am all for moving Hargo to RB, for a while anyway. This will also allow Fletcher to get more p;laying time at CMF as well.
April 3rd, 2008 at 23:11
Ahmed … Do you remember ? I told you some day -just humour then,back in August- that hargreaves will be our right back. Remember me telling you that Neville will be injured and Hargo will erplace him? That was months ago.It made you go crazy and you claimed that his position is def mider…. Now that I’m semi-true would you like to see Hargo as our starting right back ?
April 3rd, 2008 at 23:40
Grognard, I agree with you mate, if the other centre mids are keeping Hargo out and he can improve us by playing at RB, then I think he should be playing. Some of the best wing backs around are converted midfielders and to me Hargo looks like a beast of a player in there and does not look like a square peg in a round hole, so his price tag is irrelevant. Brown has done a decent job there this season but he is not the answer long term and has done nothing to convince me that he is anything other than a squad player. As regards to his contract, Im still undecided if it is best to keep him or not. We have Pique, Oshea and Silvestre also as cover but the question still remains wether we should reward him for his loyalty and service or be ruthless and let him go if it benefits the team, altough its hard to see how keeping him would hurt us unless there are some overall wage restrictions in place.
April 3rd, 2008 at 23:53
Hargreaves looks a beast of a player in there??? How long has he actually played at right back for us exactly?
April 4th, 2008 at 0:25
JB, He played there against us if my memory serves me right for Bayern Munich and was very good, and his cameo against Villa was impressive and on tuesday night when SAF put him on the right hand side of midfield he totally stopped Romas raids down the left side which troubled us until his conclusion, I could be wrong about this but I think he played there many times for Bayern and has all the ingredients to be a wing back.
April 4th, 2008 at 0:52
I agree with the comments. Most games we play we have no need for a holding midfielder so end up with a 17 million player on the bench. Hargreaves is not a natural right back but I reckon he is better than O’Shea in that position who usually deputises for Brown.
April 4th, 2008 at 2:21
JB; Fred the Red is correct. Hargo has played RWB for Bayern Munich on numerous occasions. Hell, what position hasn’t he played. Amazing versatility. The fact that he can stick to a player, run hard, dribble and be able to cross actually makes him a natural for the position. Otherwise either Scholes or Carrick would have to take a seat. Seeing as they have no versatility, I am all for Hargo becoming our future RB.
Colver also brings up a valid point. Most of the time we find it that it is unnecessary to use a holding midfielder against teams that put 10 players behind the ball and defend the Alamo. He can still be used as that holding midfielder against Arsenal, Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea, while also being used in that capacity for most Champions League games. Using him this way and letting Brown go is going to save a ton of money that could go towards signing that vital striker we need. No matter how good Rooney is, he still needs a poacher to take the pressure off of him. Tevez is not the answer. I see Carlos starting a third of the games and playing the role of super sub for the rest.
I think we also need to address the need for a competent backup at RMF/RW for Ronaldo. He needs to be rested more. Park is decent I suppose, but I would like someone with some speed out there. Nani can play there but i see him as a starter on the left side next season.
April 4th, 2008 at 4:14
I would like to sign Lahm but also keep Brown.
His versatility is essentail. The lad performs wherever we need him. Simple as that.
April 4th, 2008 at 5:36
If a player is good and leaves for more money (where he is getting the benifit) even though the club wants him, we call it treachery. Now if a loyal player wants to stay but the club allows him to leave because they can get a player of equal capabilities for cheap wages, why dont we call it a treachery in the part of the club?
Isnt loyalty a two way thing?
April 4th, 2008 at 7:35
So Shannon you are basically saying you would like your cake and eat it too, correct? Perhaps you should ask Wes Brown if he feels it’s in his best interest to play second fiddle again after finally cracking the first team. I rather doubt it.
Ciddu; I doubt very much that United will settle for a player of equal value to Brown. Both Lahm and Bosingwa are upgrades at that position. In fact, Hargreaves is an upgrade at that position. And it’s not treachery, it’s business. After all, the bottom line is winning. Loyalty is an overused and archaic term in the age when the Bosman Ruling has basically changed the sport from what it was. Loyalty is to the making of money and winning at all costs. It may sound cold and cynical but the fans prefer winning to loyalty too.
April 4th, 2008 at 8:14
truth be told, there are reasons to keep brown and reasons against, like we can play hargo at right back, but then that stretches our squad as we have 1 less cm( something we have been raving about i might add) but then that means andy carrick and scholes get more games, but that means there is more chance of injury. our best bet is to keep him or buy another right-back.
April 4th, 2008 at 8:14
Yes, fans are cold and cynical, and they are also hypocritical. But it’s the imperfections of the human mind. We won’t forgive Gaby Heinze because he wanted to go to Liverpool. At that time we will throw the “It’s a business” theory out of the window. Had John Terry played for us we’d be supporting him through the end of time. Of course, now I would say he’s a prick.
But all this comes alongwith being a fan. It’s how it works, and it adds to the whole point of being a fan. We are all a very tribal and hypocritical bunch — all because we love our club.
I know it may not answer your question Ciddu, but I guess I can’t think of a better answer.
April 4th, 2008 at 8:50
As you have said though he has plaid RWB for Bayern rather than RB, two distinctly different roles. His performances for us there have amounted to a decent 90 minutes against a crap Bolton team and half an hour against a broken Villa. He was bought to bring bite, tenacity and drive to the midfield and ensure we were not overrun like we were against Milan.
If we decide to play him at right back then IMO, we have just spectacularly pissed £18m down the drain and SAF really cocked up his transfer requirements. That money could have bought a world class dedicated, or hell it could have bought Anelka last summer and Hutton during the winter.
As for playing him there in the majority of games and moving him to midfield for the big games, that very much undermines the theory of playing a settled backline that has worked so well for us this year.
What he needs to do is up his game. The reason he has not got a place in the starting 11 is because he has not even approached the level of performance he showed against Portugal last summer or away to Milan in the spring. Or it could be his timekeeping
Please buy me an alarm clock!
April 4th, 2008 at 8:51
Grognard At a team like Manchester United i expect to get my cake and eat it to!
Sign up Brown, and after that Sign Lahm…
Let them fight it out!
On the subject of signings… I really like Veloso.. sign him to and then ship out Hargo.
Bang Bang!!
April 4th, 2008 at 8:56
Heck, we can even sell him back to lousy Bayern.
1-1 at home to Getafe?
April 4th, 2008 at 9:45
So Grognard, you say that football is just business!! End of story. Which means from next time a player (ala Heinze) plays the game of transfer request for more money, are you sure you wont bash him and call him names?
April 4th, 2008 at 18:14
Ciddu; If you go back as far as the Heinze affair you would read that I was a lone supporter of Heinze because i though he had been treated poorly by the club and because before his injury he was better than Evra. I had no problem with him wanting out because a player of his caliber deserves to start. What I had a problem with was him going to Liverpool Go play anywhere you want but United should never transfer players to Liverpool. To a lesser extent Chelsea and Arsenal. I have no problem with Brown and I definitely appreciate his years with the club as well as his contribution to our winning ways. But it is his agent who has stirred up the hornet’s nest and demanded more money. It’s he who has turned down a contract offered to him. As I see it, his greed is the problem, not United’s or my disloyalty to him. Lets not heap too much praise upon him for our fine season and great defensive record thus far. He has done well but he has also made numerous errors which most of the time Rio or Vidic correct.
Shannon; If you can’t see how great a player Hargreaves is, my arguing is not going to improve things. Go on believing what you want mate and you can wish all the Veloso’s in the world to come to OT. And you like Veloso. From what, the two times you have seen him play?
JB; You are attacking the topic from the viepoint of a chartered accountant. Who cares what they paid for Hargreaves. It’s done and get over it. Now it’s important to get value from him and that means by watching him play and contribute. You are a Carrick fan, you like Anderson and you were quick to jump all over me about Scholes (as well as Carrick) when I wasn’t on their bandwagon earlier this season. Well I have jumped on their bandwagon now and for the foreseeable future I don’t like seeing our midfield without those two starting. Problem is that Hargo is too good a player to be sitting the bench. He’s also incredibly proficient and flexible at playing a variety of positions. Therefore, it makes sense to utilize the money spent on him by playing him as much as possible. When we play a 4-5-1 he can play the holding midfield role, when we play more of an attacking style we can plug him in at RB or RWB. RWB is only different because it requires the player to have a little more speed, and desire to move up into the attack where he can pass, shoot or deliver crosses. Hargo is better at this than Brown and it would compliment the exact role Evra plays for us on the left side. In fact both Lahm and Bosingwa are known more as RWB’s than RB’s.
You continually frustrate me buy digging on his performance yet you forget that he has struggled with sever knee tendinitis for most of the season. Yet his performances have been fine with me. Of late, he has been outstanding which makes me wonder even more, why he doesn’t start more? The reason I feel is that Fergie is still protecting him from his knee problem flaring up and that an entire off season is needed to get him back to 100%. Having suffered elbow tendinitis on a few occasions (I used to pitch in baseball)I can speak from experience that tendinitis is a serious problem that needs time to disappear and it also needs as little strain to the area as possible during that time. It can also become a chronic problem if not monitored properly. Lets be fair to the lad. For what he does, he is world class and we should all be elated to have him. As for Shannon’t suggestion to sell him and buy the far inferior Veloso, I say BOLLOCKS!
And Red Ranter, I hope that wasn’t a veiled insult directed at me calling some fans hypocrites because they don’t possess the necessary fan loyalty to players that would elevate them to uberfans. Football is a business and every fan should wrap their head around that concept first and foremost. If the club doesn’t see the value of Brown like you do, get over it. I’m sure his agent has had a lot to do with their unwillingness to conform to his demands. Remember that I was the lione voice in the wilderness that felt Heinze got a raw deal at OT. And John Terry is a turd. Even if he played for us he’d be a turd. But, he’d be our turd.
April 4th, 2008 at 18:24
And Hargreaves does look a beast of a player at any position Fergie feels fit to place him. He’s that damned good. Too bad his injuries have not allowed most of you to realize it thus far. But you will. Of that I’m sure of. Health permitted of course.
April 4th, 2008 at 20:01
I’m fully aware Hargreaves is a very good player, but I have not seen it on display in the red shirt on anything like a consistent basis. There have been a few good performances, a couple of poor ones and a whole lot of average ones. Tell me this honestly, have any of the rest of you not been disappointed with him do date? He has run about, harried the opposition etc. But where is the immense drive and ability to grab a game by the scruff of the neck like he did against Milan at the San Siro or against Portugal? I haven’t seen a sign of it. We could have got a good terrier for a lot cheaper, the reason we played the £18m were for those extra qualities.
Now he may yet improve but he is nowhere near his full potential. Even if he is been protected from tendonitis he is being played very sparsely, so much so that surgery would surely have been the better option. At any rate Grognard I remember Scholes and Carrick getting very little slack on their returns from injuries. Yes he has made a couple of encouraging sub appearances against Villa and Roma, but the bottom line IMO is that he needs to step up his game. Hopefully with a clean, injury free pre-season he can.
P.S. I make a point of desperately trying to avoid bandwagons. I was never trying to get you on anyone’s bandwagon, simply to give the likes of Carrick a fair chance. Likewise I’m not jumping on one here. I’m not suggesting selling or shooting Hargreaves, I simply think he hasn’t played as he potentially can.
April 4th, 2008 at 20:05
bs to ship out hargo..he is a class..we will see ‘him’ next season..give him some time with his tendonitis then he will run riot with his tacklings..he even will tackle veloso hard if we ever play against sporting..lol
April 4th, 2008 at 20:10
JB..on current situation, yes we should play carrick and scholes more because both are in such a good form.but i think we should give hargo some time..i think we can only judge him next season as the rest will benifit him thanks to england not in euro 2008..
April 4th, 2008 at 20:46
[Grognard]
I think I made it clear in my comment that it wasn’t directed particularly at you. What I am saying though is, at some level we all are hypocrites like it or not. The ideas of loyalties, sports being business and all that crap can go out of the window if emotions get the better of us. And emotions do play a big part of us as fans.
That’s what I meant. If it is an insult to you, it would be as much an insult to me. But I won’t call it an insult at all.
April 4th, 2008 at 20:48
one of the skills in being a good manager is not only getting the best out of individual players, but also utilising the full squad so that your starting 11 is the best it can be at any given time. Thats why I agree with Grognard on the Hargreaves at RB point.
The form of Scholes and Carrick is keeping Hargo out at the moment and know one should have a problem with that, but if Hargo playing at RB would improve the team then he should be playing there no matter what or how much he was bought for.
Hargos drive, mobility, speed and all round capabilties are much suited for the wing back role and I think he could bring an extra dimension that Brown does not pocess to our play.
I have nothing against Brown, I just see room for improvement in an area that has the potential to provide the same virtues that Evra brings on the left side and that in my opinion is a change worth making.
April 4th, 2008 at 21:20
Fred the Red: I’ve no problem with SAF putting Hargreaves in at right back as a short term fix given the urrent situation. What I don’t want to see is s starting next season with Hargreaves as a first coice right back.
April 4th, 2008 at 22:05
JB, I agree with you mate, personally I would like to see Lahm or Alvez playing RWB at OT next year, but in the meantime hargo would be a more than able stop gap
April 4th, 2008 at 22:51
Red Ranter; No problem mate. No I wasn’t insulted and even though you said the comment wasn’t directed at me, it did look tailored to include me in it because of my previous comments. Still, not a problem at all as I am definitely not insulted in the least. I just wanted to point out to you that it did feel like you were thinking of me, even if you weren’t.
JB; I on the other hand have absolutely no problem with Hargo as a permanent RB/RWB for the club next season. I think he is more than tailored for the part and he would allow us to take the money that would be spent on Lahm or Bosingwa (I think Alves is going to Barca)as well as the money saved from losing Brown and put it towards a striker of quality or a backup to Ronaldo on the right side.
Also, I was hard on Scholes because his injury took long to recover from and because his age was a real negative point for me. My problem early on regarding Carrick was that his performances were inconsistent. That has changed over the last 15 games or so. It had nothing to do with an injury. As for Scholes, he has been a great player but I do see that he has slowed down quite a bit. Still his leadership, control of the game’s pace and his vision are invaluable until a replacement can take over without us skipping a beat. Just as long as he keeps the back passes to a minimum. Anderson is not ready and to be honest, I’m not sure he ever will be. He has dropped in form considerably every game for over a month now. Could be fatigue but I see great limitations in his game and he is an absolutely terrible shooter of the ball. I would feel that we would have seen much improvement in that area of his game since his debut, but that has not been the case. As for Carrick, he has done a fantastic job of playing a bit of a holder in midfield with a transitional passing game that gives us a strong attack. He can only get better with lots of playing time because you can see the gradual improvement in his game.
April 5th, 2008 at 15:45
The lack of injuries this season has blind all your judgment. We lose Brown we are losing two covered positions. 3rd Choice CB and 2nd Choice RB. You remember the season before were we had real injury issues that cost us the Champions’ League and probably FA Cup? Brown can’t go the way of Heinze I mean Heinze was never really replaced either…
April 5th, 2008 at 16:01
Abu; He’s replaceable, and for less money. A starter never takes to sitting on the bench as a sub well.
April 5th, 2008 at 16:40
Grognard: He han a starter at times for the club for long spells and has went back to being sub.
April 6th, 2008 at 16:01
Just finished watching Wes Brown hand our title race to whomever wants it, by conceding possession, space and goals to Middlesbrough. Turns out he’s also holding us hostage on his contract, hey? Right? Well, I guess that ends the question of whether we need to keep him? Maybe he can now fuck off and at the same time, the stars can fall from everyone’s eyes about our defence – when Vidic leaves, there is none. Ferdinand’s a fucking joke, all the over-wrought claims about his ‘anticipation’ notwithstanding (which I think are basically to cover up the fact that he doesn’t tackle) and the only real defender left is Evra, and he’s just not light-speed fast enough to to actually BE in three places at once, and cover the gaps left by EVERY_OTHER_FUCKING_DEFENDER we have on the field.
So Brown can fucking go and if he goes on a free transfer we’ll still be richer for it. Pity we can never make back the money we splurged on Ferdinand.
April 6th, 2008 at 16:13
oh, and, btw – hargreaves is fine. he can replace practically anyone in our defence for starters. he’s not getting a start because we don’t know what his real strengths are in relation to the other players and we don’t really have the games in hand to find out. we do know about scholes and carrick and the like. hence, they start.