May 23
Some Sober Reflections
It’s hard to step back and look at the whole final without being tainted by the result. The temptation is to exult the good bits and ignore the bad bits, on the basis that it was all part of a masterplan. It’s also hard to give any new perspective, given the pages and pages of journalism on the subject. But I’m going to try - I’m going to give you two bits of hype that you should believe, and also four hard truths that we need to learn if we are to improve on what seems like perfection.
1. Believe the hype - 4-4-2
There weren’t many pundits who genuinely thought that we’d go in with a 4-4-2. “All about the midfield battle”, they pontificated, talking fluent cliche; “Chelsea are very physical and United will need numbers to combat that”. Having suffered through the Barca games and the loss at the Bridge, plenty of us also expected a 4-3-3 cum 4-5-1 to take the field.
There can be no doubt that we played an orthodox 4-4-2 for the whole first half, and that it worked superbly. Not least because it was a total tactical wrong ‘un, which it took Grant until half time to figure out. Carrick and Scholes were 15 yards deeper than Lampard and Ballack expected, so they had an extra touch or two to dictate the play. Our strongest player homed in on their most vulnerable. Makalele had no floating players to track, and so was comparatively ineffective. Cashley’s incursions were limited by Hargreaves, helping Brown to tuck and and deal with the central threat.
But the extra stroke of genius, what turned it from an interesting ploy into a potentially match-winning gambit, was the use of Hargreaves. When the teams were announced, literally everybody took it as proof that we were playing 4-3-3. Hargo’s been better going forward recently, but nobody has him down as a right winger. He was to be the screen - after all, that’s what he was bought for. So Chelsea would have focussed their last minute team talks on re-inforcing their strategy against 4-3-3, and a slight surprise was turned into a brutal curveball. It took them fully 45 minutes to recover; by that time, we should have had the match wrapped up.
2. Hard truth - Rooney and Tevez aren’t ruthless enough
This doesn’t matter in many matches, but it does in the really huge games. You don’t get many chances, and you have to be able to take a very high percentage of them against the very best teams to stand a chance. Ronaldo, nominally a winger, had one chance and put it away - that’s been the story of his season, what has turned 25 into 42.
I’m afraid Rooney and, in particular, Tevez aren’t doing that. They have each scored a decent number of goals, but not as many as they should have done in a team of this creative potential. In the final, Rooney didn’t have a single shot on goal - extraordinary for your centre-forward, however selfless. Tevez did - he should have scored twice in the first half, and in the second half he wasted a couple of decent positions by trying to beat the best most orange keeper in the world at his near post.
We need that Huntelaar type of figure - the predator who converts the great moves - to maximise our chances of retaining the European Cup.
3. Hard truth - Edwin van der Saar
Just as for Jerzy Dudek, the last penalty hero in a CL final, so it must be for EVDS. He has been struggling of late, with dodgy kicks and the odd flap at a high ball. It was extraordinary to see Fergie instruct his team at Stamford Bridge not to pass back to EVDS, and there were a couple of examples of that in the final where Vida tamely put balls out for throw-ins rather than trying to re-cycle the ball through his keeper. Nor is this fading towards the end of the season a first - it was the same last time round.
I don’t blame him for the slip for the first goal, since he was going for the first deflection and had to change again for the second. But when he slipped in the second half as Essien approached, that could have cost us the game - if Essien’s shot had been on target at all, it would have gone in.
We have a ready-made replacement in Ben Foster, and this is the ideal time to blood him. He has one of the most experienced keepers in the world on the training pitch, and the most secure back four in recent history in front of him.
4. Believe the hype - Nemanja Vidic
People have talked about the contribution of our stingy defence, but Vida was truly massive in this game. I don’t think there’s anyone better (and I’m including England’s Bottling John Terry, or England’s Bawling John Terry*, as you prefer) at dealing with a physical centre-forward. He had Drogba in his pocket for almost the whole night, so that Drogba’s only contributions came when he dropped out into midfield territory (the shot which hit the post) or out wide onto Evra in the air.
Bear in mind that Rio struggled through half of the game with mystery cramp, and you see the true achievement in containing Chelsea’s attacking threat. It’s no accident that Drogba targeted Vida for that girlie-slap - he was taking out his frustrations on the man who had shut him out of the final.
* For those not familiar with the Fiver, Terry is sarcastically nicknamed England’s Brave John Terry (EBJT) for his tedious self-portrayal as the indestructible, tough but ultimately good bloke.
5. Hard truth - substitutions
It’s been a long time since we’ve had such a strong bench, and Fergie needs to remember how to use it. One of the things that Mourinho was best at for Chelsea was recognising before anyone else did that things weren’t working, and acting decisively to change it.
It is only recently that we have had a full bench of geniune first team players to choose from. We were in serious danger of being over-run in the second half, when the 4-4-2 gambit had been recognised and dealt with. If Fergie had really been on top of his game, Scholes would have come off after 60 minutes and been replaced by Anderson, whose energy and combative spirit would have been very welcome as Chelsea began to move through the gears. At the same time, we should have reverted to the more logical 4-3-3, and freed Ronaldo from the responsibility of tracking the marauding Essien. The sentimental use of Ryan Giggs could have been saved for later.
If you want an example of the benefits of decisive subsitutions, look at the Arsenal game where Tevez and Anderson replaced Park and Scholes after 55 mins, and changed the game - we came from behind to win 2-1. More of this, please, Fergie, and less dithering.
6. Hard truth - Ronaldo as penalty-taker
That penalty miss must mark the end of Ronaldo’s stint as United’s first choice penalty taker. Whilst he has scored some high-pressure penalties (again, at Arsenal, for example), he missed three last season. Three is way too many - one is about the acceptable limit.
And think which penalties they were. First, to put the away game at West Ham out of sight - we went on to lose, and those three points would have been invaluable at end of the season. Second, in the first few minutes of the epic Barca tie - the whole tone of the tie would have been different if we had effectively started with a lead. Last, but not least, the one in the final.
Each could have cost us dear, none did. Let’s not push our luck, and give someone else the honour.
Right, that’s it. I’m going back to glorious celebrations, random chanting and myopic idolisation now. If you can step back from the hype, though, let’s hear your thoughts in the comment.
Related items from Red Rants:
May 23rd, 2008 at 16:08
1st comment yay!
Totally agree about points 2 and 5. Nail on head! Not just the finals, I think one of the main reasons for us getting the double this season has been our squad depth/attacking options. No doubt about that!
I don’t agree on point 6 though. Ron should continue taking our penalties. Remember the retake against Arsenal at OT? That makes up for the three misses.
May 23rd, 2008 at 16:14
Though if we HAD to make someone else take the penalties, I would vote for Owen Hargreaves. What a brilliant PK just after Ron missed!
PS: I’ve watched the penalties six times since the match, and it seems magical every time. Especially when Terry slips. Just brilliant!
May 23rd, 2008 at 16:18
I agree with the changing of the PK taker. Tevez was the most assured of the takers in the final and think he should probably take them from now on. It will be interesting to see what happens if Portugal get a PK shoot-out in the Euro’s. I remember the one he scored against England in 2006, right in the top corner, no mistake. Why that confidence has deserted him after 42 goals in a season is a mystery. He should definately abort the staggered run up and just put it powerfully in the corner. When Ruud took them, he put them in the bottom left corner almost every time. The goalie knew it but still couldnt stop them. In truth, if Ronnie takes another 1 next season, or in the Euros and scores it, he’ll probably have his confidence back. No doubt he’ll practise them. He’s that kind of player.
Rooney’s performance was disapointing but you have to give it to Terry & Carvalho for keeping him quiet like you did for Vidic Vs Drogba. The CB’s both end of the pitch did a very good job at keeping the strikers quiet. All the chances and best moves were from the wings or Lamps n Ballack. Except Drogba’s shot that hit the post and Rio n Vidic should have done better.
One other point for your consideration, RedRanter, Carricks lack of prowess in front of goal. He should have buried that chance in the bottom right-hand corner. He had time and space. Would Scholes, Lampard or Ballack have had it saved? I dont think so. Sadly I think this is why he wont ever be that quality. Hargreaves would have buried it too.
May 23rd, 2008 at 16:21
couple of points:
1) we do NOT need a huntelaar type. No thanks. A benzema type, yes. Not another ruud who may score a lot but will seriously inhibit the natural free flowing utd play
2) ron must continue with the pens. no one better in our squad and whilst he has missed a few of late, overall, he has done very well under pressure. Plus, there is no one better at the club to take them
May 23rd, 2008 at 16:31
I agree in all the points, a really good article. I also agree with Hargo a penalty taker too.
He showed bottle for England against Portugal as well as Wednesday.
We need a striker Rudd 10 years ago or Huntelaar now. We must build on this when we won in 99 we did not build on that success, I think we only bought Bosnich on a free that summer!!
Ps Back to 99, can we please sing WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS THE CHAMPIONS OF EUROPE a lot, i didnt think we sang it enough back then!!
May 23rd, 2008 at 16:41
All sensible points with the exception of point 3. about EvdS. Yep his kicking has mysteriously deteriorated badly over the course of the season. Yes, he’s become more prone to flapping under pressure, but he’s still an immense keeper and United’s proven best. Fozzie is still a pup - he’ll have plenty of time as United’s No.1 - not just yet.
As for the crybaby from Barking - what can I say that hasn’t already been said, except - hahahahahahahahahahahah! Cockney Tw*t! That’s what you get for gobbing on a fellow professional, you chav scum.
May 23rd, 2008 at 16:42
Brilliant article again…completely agree with all but one point. Fergie’s (and Carlos’) tactics were brilliant and cunning for the 1st half. I myself was sure we were playing 4-3-3 when I saw the team and it took me a while to usderstand why Hargreaves was spending most of his time bombing up on the right in Chelsea’s half. Totally flummoxed Chelsea for 45 mins!!
But like you say, it was obviously evident that Chelsea had got to grips with things in the second half, so it was obvious that we needed to change things quickly, and was so frustrating for most of the second half knowing that we had options to compete in midfield (either changing our shape or with a sub) that weren’t being used…and ultimately we were very fortunate that we weren’t punished for that mistake.
Dunno why, but SAF seems more and more cautious about using substitutions with every passing year…which seems strange because as the game becomes more tactical subs will play a more important than ever.
Finally, I don’t agree with what you said about Ronaldo and penalties. Sure, he needs to work on some variations (he obviously feels confident with shooting to only the left corner), but also he feels the need right now to show the rest of Europe that he’s the worlds best. Hopefully, if he wins the ballon d’or this year and with the experience of winning the CL he’ll get that out of his system and be a bit more composed in the big European matches.
May 23rd, 2008 at 17:01
All good points. I’m not sure about Huntelaar though. I haven’t seen enough of him but he strikes me as a more RVN type of traditional centre-forward, so buying Huntelaar would seem a retrograde step if anything. It’s a real shame Mr. Glass is made of… well … glass! Some of our movement with him in the side during the first half of 2006/07 was mesmeric, totally carved teams open. Rather than an out-and-out forward I think we need someone with more physical presense up front who can lead the line (more effectively than Rooney and Tevez who suffer because of their lack of height) but also drop deep and be part of the fluid forward line that Ferguson has developed. For this reason I dream of Benzema rather than Huntelaar. However, it doesn’t look Benzema is up for leaving Lyon just yet.
On the substitutions it was also noticeable how it seemed that is was Giggs who promoted Ferguson to bring on Anderson in time for the penalties. Was very impressed with both Nani’s and Anderson’s composure in slotting away their respective penalties.
Hailing from Roy Keane’s native city as I do means I have another European Cup final to look foward to tomorrow as Munster take on Toulouse in the rugby version. What a great week this it turning out to be!
May 23rd, 2008 at 17:06
[Meddleuk]
Just a clarification, Penguin wrote this.
May 23rd, 2008 at 17:07
Good article mate.
May 23rd, 2008 at 17:14
Quick query, does a goal in a penalty shoot-out count as a goal? Has Anderson scored his first United goal?
(Seems rather trivial but as we get further and further away from Wednesday night I need something to chew on to keep me distracted from my A levels!)
May 23rd, 2008 at 17:15
all the build up in the world will make you an arsenal, but man utd put the balls in the back of the net after that build up… i still think we need that OPTION… someone who can be clinical… like huntelaar, who as part of his hype has been called the new, but more MOBILE ruud…
hooray for hard truth 2 and i hope man utd aknowledges it with the purchase of huntelaar or benzema… or someone who can provide that killer option
May 23rd, 2008 at 17:29
Penguin; Fantastic article and I couldn’t agree more with you mate except for the Ronaldo penalty kicking point. Let me get that one out of the way first. Penalty kicking is a lottery on most occasions. I think Ronaldo is very good at taking them but he has had a small run of bad luck. Consider all the ones he has made and especially the back to back ones he was forced to make against Arsenal. That takes gut s and nerve and I for one cannot think of another player who fits that description for PK’s on the team. The one against Barca was caused by him changing his mind at the last second. The one in the shootout was his poorest effort ever because it wasn’t even that close to the corner. His studder step and delay I think is screwing him up more than the keepers. They are starting to wait his motion out before they commit. If they coach that part of his game out of him he will be fine because he is generally very accurate and he hits the ball with authority. With that said if United are fortunate enough to get Huntelaar he could be the alternative in this department. He is a very good penalty taker however, knowing how fragile Ronaldo’s ego can be, Im not so sure I want to give him any ammunition to contemplate bolting to Spain. For me it’s a small price to pay to keep him happy and content. A player like him needs the constant positive stroking and encouragement you get from added responsibilities.
As for your other comments, PERFECT! I couldn’t agree more. YES about Huntelaar and YES YES YES about the fact that Rooney and Tevez aren’t ruthless enough. They just aren’t predatory in the box and this hurts us more than many think because they get blinded by the number of team goals we score and the way we play as a team. Bottom line is we need a take charge striker like a Huntelaar who will make the box his. I loved watching the way Luca Toni played this year for Bayern. Even when the team was playing poor, he was giving a clinic setting up shop in the box and making life difficult for keepers and defenders. Watching rooney stroll around smelling the flowers on the sidelines is not my idea of how a striker should play. And Tevez works his ass off as well but too often he is found wanting in the box because he does not have the physical presence to take charge. Still, he does a better job than Rooney despite the fact he is a Hobbit.
I also agree totally about EVDS. I love him and thank him for the penalty but i have been on his case since last year. For all the points you make but for the fact that he has a problem with long shots. He usually gets a slow jump on the ball and he has let in numerous well taken long shots over the past two years. If he had stopped 50% of the ones he had a chance on our defensive record would look more insane than it already does. He’s a great keeper but age is catching up with him. Keep him as a starter next season but blood Green by having him play all the League Cup games as well as a dozen league games too. The boy needs to start 20 games next season to grow and find his form.
Once again, great article. It’s great to see others who agree with me. Too often I get abused for many of the points you have brought up today. Hallelujah! I’m not alone.
May 23rd, 2008 at 17:33
yes sam, it was andys first goal. i dont know about changing the penalty taker.
no way in hell tevez would get dropped if we buy an out and out striker, rooney would have to make due with the bench.
May 23rd, 2008 at 17:39
@Grognard
Thanks mate.
I think you mean Foster, not Green! I agree - shouldn’t be a 100% handover, but he should play all domestic cup games (League or FA) and some League games. That way EVDS can stay strong through the whole season in Europe and the bigger PL games. The next season is the time for Foster to be guaranteed number 1. The main art for Foster to learn this season is how to do nothing all game except make two great saves and two good takes from crosses - the polar opposite of life at Watford.
On the strikers, I think Rooney’s and Tevez’s big problem is lack of height. There is just no way he can deal with aerial balls constructively against partnerships like Terry and Carvalho. You actually see him make runs behind the CBs quite a lot in case they misjudge, rather than having a genuine chance of winning the ball and holding it up.
I’m afraid a lot of people abuse anyone who is not 100% positive about their team - but where would we be if Fergie was like that? Realism is required sometimes, not a view through “red-tinted glasses”.
May 23rd, 2008 at 17:42
@ Dan
From the way Fergie used Tevez towards the end of the season, I think it would be him that made way in that sort of line-up. Both as others have mentioned, I want the out-and-out front man as an option for certain games, not as a guaranteed starter for every game.
I think the days where our first eleven picks itself are well and truly over - now it will be selected from a powerful squad to suit the exact occasion.
May 23rd, 2008 at 17:45
ah, but would someone like huntelaar be fine with sitting on the bench for a third of a season(not really a third but you know what i mean).
May 23rd, 2008 at 17:50
Rooney on the bench?! Comon it’s Friday already… you should be sober by now.
I totaly agree with you Penguin! All of them brilliantly put and discussed! As for VDS, yes he should step down as first choice goalkeeper and let Foster slowly take over from him next season. I would still play VDS in about half of the Premier League games and all of the Champions League so that the pressure does not mount on Foster, but yea. As for the new penalty taker: Owen Hargreaves. I have seen the lad take three penalty kicks and all of them were struck with perfection.
May 23rd, 2008 at 17:51
Oops sorry Penguin I was typing while you wrote that.
May 23rd, 2008 at 18:02
Yes Rooney and Tevez aren’t clinical enough but lets face it - they aren’t going to be dropped. I can see us getting Mario Gomez after the euros as Huntelaar seems to be staying and Benzema and Berbatov are just too dear. I’d let VDS off to Ajax and get Coupet who’s on a free in the summer. Foster could be given one in every five games or something like that so he will be ready to take over as the #1 in a year or two. I’d give the penalties to Hargreaves or Tevez. And I don’t care what anyone says Anderson is twice the player of Carrick and should be an automatic starter.
May 23rd, 2008 at 18:06
Good points to make especially 2!
I love Tevez and Rooney in equal measure. They are team players and create so many chances. But neither is clinical.
In big games you get very few clear-cut chances, and most of them will fall to whoever you are playing up front. So it is essential that there is someone you can rely on. Ronaldo is great, but I want to see him on the wings not playing a make-shift forward and covering for the inadequacies of Tevez and Rooney in front of goal.
We need a striker who is pacey, clinical and has good aerial ability. We can then shift Rooney or Tevez behind them and let them play to their stengths.
May 23rd, 2008 at 18:16
Very good points, Penguin, all of them!
But it just seems to me that while they are very valid, they hold some other side implications.
Ronnie as Penalty taker for e.g.
As Groganrd rightly said, giving the PK responsibilty to another player might be a matter of concern for the lad. If he asks for it himself, then great, but we should remember that one of the reasons why Shearer never came to United (not that we needed him!) was the fact that PK was the exclusivity of King Eric!
Also, as for goal keeping matters,
I also agree that EVDS should still be no.1 because his goalkeeping fundamentals are so good. And no matter how you look at it there are less than 10, or maybe less than 5 keepers in the world who stand up more than 1m90 (sorry, international standards :)) and have really good all round goal keeping. If you look for a smaller GK then his positioning must be near perfect (a la Casillas). I sincerely hope that Foster has that element in his game as however good his ball handling might be, he would still be be found wanting in other situations.
So, yes, blood Foster in cup games.
As for the Huntelaar debate (sooner or later his name always seem to crop up, this guy! ) I just wonder if it would really signify the return of the move it up to Ruud style.
Ruud himself admits that the game in his time at OT developed like this whereas nowadays at Bernabeu, he is much more involved in team moves it seems. So I’d still give the Hunter a chance, just because for me dutch players have more chance to adapt to the United way, and less so for Benzema, who while clearly the better suited player, doesn’t seem too interested in a United move.
May 23rd, 2008 at 18:20
I think if we were to get a new striker Rooney and Tevez would still play- it would be 4-2-3-1 with Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo fluidly moving behind a front man. Rooney’s main problem this year is that he’s been played out of position- on the wing, up top by himself- we’ll see the White Pele again if he plays behind a top man- no way is he getting benched! Nani would also be available to swap with Tevez for this system. Behind the 3 we would see two of Anderson, Hargreaves and Carrick (or the Ginger Prince, of course, but I’m thinking of not just next season but the next couple). Carrick is probably quite important (though he is my least favorite of the 3) as if we are going to have a pacy, intricate system up top we need at least one player who will slow it down in the team. As much as we loved Hargo as a right winger, his position is the holding midfield slot, though importantly because Carrick plays so deep, Hargo would have a license to get forward. Anderson would also fit in perfectly. Finally, because I don’t propose we play with any out-and-out wingers (as the Holy Trinity would shift positions at will) it is important we have pacy, attacking full-backs. Evra is perfect. Unfortunately, despite him being my favorite player and his having a wonderful season, Wesley is not the best for this system. Lahm or Alves would be nice, though if it isn’t possible to get an utter superstar we shouldn’t fuss- I feel Danny Simpson will become a great player, after Neville/ Brown tide us over for another season or two.
May 23rd, 2008 at 18:24
Penguin,
Agree with all points, except the one on Ronaldo. He’s put away plenty under pressure (Arsenal, Everton). I think everyone goes through a rough patch with penalties - Ruud missed a few in the 03-04 season too…..it’s been unfortunate that after a year and a half Ronaldo’s lean period has come at the very end of a season for us. That said, I do agree that some one else like Hargreaves could easily step in if Ronaldo misses any more
May 23rd, 2008 at 18:40
Really good article, I’d have to say I agree with the majority of it, especially about VDS. Fergie has come out a few times this season an implied that Foster will start next season, so I reckon you’re spot on there. Oh, and Nico, Foster is fucking huge. If he gets some serious first team experience next season we could have a massive world-class keeper on our hands, except one who’s 25 not 37.
I’m still not sure about the need for a “predator”. It’d be nice to have someone on the bench that we could throw on, but half of the moves that create our chances only happen to work so well because of Rooney and Tevez’s uncoventional styles.
I can’t see penalties being taken away from Ronaldo though, he just needs to be reminded that he is not invincible which I’m sure the few recent misses may have done for him. If he misses one next season then we can talk about changing. Recent history suggests he’sonly going to get better.
Some positives though: our squad should be quite a bit fresher next season than those of Liverpool and Arsenal, as we have more English and South American players so no Euro 2008 to knacker them out. Chelsea will feel this advantage too though, especially due to all their African players. I think we’ll see Tevez truly come into his own next season, and hopefully Rooney will use the summer to work on tucking away all those chances. If we can get Rooney and Tevez free-scoring like they were before Rooney’s second injury, any striker we buy will be confined to the bench.
May 23rd, 2008 at 18:41
andrei lets face it, the only reason fans dont want rooney on the bench is because he’s english, tevez, in my opinion, is a better striker then rooney and a more consistent and important one also. if tevez was english we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
May 23rd, 2008 at 18:43
Sam; That formation just wouldn’t work. It is putting square pegs into round holes.
Look back to the start of the year, people were trying to put the ‘Fantastic Four’ A.K.A Messi, Henry, Eto’o and Ronaldinho into one team. It didn’t turn out to be the brilliant football the ans’ were expecting to be dazzled with.
If Tevez, Ronaldo and Rooney all play behind one main striker, that means for the majority of the game either Tevez or Rooney will be playing on the wing, this limits their effectiveness.
We probably do need a striker, whether it be the target man who can bring others into play or the ruthless finisher who can change a game in a second.
But one thing I do know is that we just won the league with Tevez and Rooney being our only two recognised strikers. Which hopefully means the only way is up.
Dan; That is a common excuse but the fact is, Rooney is the better player and clearly has more potential. He is much better off the ball, his vision is visibly much better and he is faster which is a very important asset in today’s world. Can you see Tevez scoring the goal Rooney scored against Chelsea? It showed raw talent and Rooney has more of it.
Penguin; Brilliant article, but I disagree about changing penalty takers, Ronaldo up until a few weeks ago was one of the best. However, as Grognard has told us before, Hargreaves would be perfectly suitable to step up when needed to.
May 23rd, 2008 at 18:47
Penguin; Yes I did mean Foster. I don’t know why I get him and Green mixed up in my head. Your comment about Rooney and Tevez not having the height to impose themselves in th aerial game but thy also lack the physicality to live in the box against very physical center backs like Terry, Carvalho, Woodgate etc. We need a tall but physically imposing striker. He doesn’t need to be 6′3″ or taller but he needs to be able to swap elbows with the best. In the changing game we see today, these type of strikers are a dying breed because many coaches don’t know how to coach that kind of style. Today they want to beat their opponent using nothing but finesse and speed. Sometimes old school football beats everything. It’s been proven over a century to work.
May 23rd, 2008 at 18:58
Andrei - agree 100% with you mate about Hargo taking penalties. I know Ronnie is an enthusiastic goal opportunist, but Saha took a penalty with Ronaldo on the pitch in Saha’s last game he came on as a sub!. Also Ronnie has agreed to let Hargo share some of the free kicks at goal, so he is not entirely greedy. What I noticed in the final, was the difference between Hargo and Ballacks attititudes. Hargeaves is a winner, passionate to the hilt, but not in a nasty way in provoking or duffing up opponents. Ballack was like a raging bull at times, aggressive and very guilty of provocation during the multiple player skirmish. He has learned well to be a Chelsea hound dog, one of their baying pack. I don’t know if he was like that at Bayern, but it’s not nice. I’m glad we got Hargo!.
It will be so sad to see the end of EVDS. But I think Edwin knows he is coming to the end now.
I haven’t seen a lot of Huntelaar playing, but from friends in Holland I hear he is FAST AND MOBILE, and good with his head and feet in the penalty area. He has already said that he would love to come to United, so I think Fergie should get in there before the price rockets after a good European championship.
Fergie has said Nani and Andi will get much more opportunity next season, as he seeks to phase out Legends Giggsy and Scholesy. I look forward to that.
May 23rd, 2008 at 19:03
all everyone says is rooney has the potential, they’ll be saying this until he’s blumin 30, he is just not that good, he is not the better finisher, he is not faster, tevez has scored more headed goals this season then rooney has in his career, he is much more consistent. if rooney was not english we would not have thi conversation, tevez is a better stiker then rooney.
May 23rd, 2008 at 19:11
Dan; That’s just not true. I’m not English, so why would nationality matter to me? Nor is Grognard, and he still would prefer to have Tevez as a super-sub. Tevez is the better dribbler, works harder and gets in better positions in the box. But that is as far as it goes. Rooney brings much more to the table than any normal striker, Tevez is neither a supporting striker because he lacks the vision and the necessary shooting ability, and he is not an out-and-out striker because he lacks the speed and physical presence. Rooney can play in both positions and on the wing better than Tevez, that says it all. Why do you think European teams fear Rooney more than Tevez?
May 23rd, 2008 at 19:17
I agree every team needs a Plan B and when our passing game is not working for us it would be nice to be able to sling some crosses in the box and have someone tall and strong enough to get on the end of them!
May 23rd, 2008 at 19:18
Rooney is the best attacking player in the team. Better than Ronaldo but very slower and very out of form this year. You forget that he is the only MU Forward that curls the ball since….. I don’t know….Have you ever seen a more gifted forward in MU…In terms of technique he is an out and out striker….In terms of morale-confidence ,well , he ’s got to work on this…
May 23rd, 2008 at 19:20
most european teams dont fear rooney and the ones that do fear him from the hype 3 years ago.
in my opinion (and it not going to change)
tevez>rooney.
May 23rd, 2008 at 19:27
[Dan]
You sure your opinion is not gonna change? Because I could have sworn that you were a Rooney fan a few months ago.
Opinions, can change. Don’t close your mind to it, that’s all.
May 23rd, 2008 at 19:28
Oooh..we’re not gonna hav a Roon vs. Tevez bowl-out here are we? I agree with NiKOS, Conor and Groggy on this one. It’s true he’s had a poor season, but the guy has got magic in him, that’s evident. His vision and passing are a step above Tevez’s. That said, after his debut (Fener) I bet all of us had visions of him being world no: 1 very soon, but sadly that hasn’t borne fruit yet. I honestly hope Roon get’s his magic going again next season and dazzles us again.
May 23rd, 2008 at 19:29
[NiKOS]
Have you ever seen a more gifted forward in MU
Er… Cantona, for example?
I know it was a rhetorical question, but just am in a jolly good mood today.
May 23rd, 2008 at 19:31
Is it only me, or does anyone else feel we may NOT get another striker this season? Maybe Fergie will decide Manucho can be the right type of player we need and decide to settle for him rather than go take a risk on a big-name player. Manucho will be used sparingly in only those games where we need someone like him, and the Roon-Tevez combo will be allowed to blossom more next season. Anybody feel the same?
May 23rd, 2008 at 19:52
heaton has gone on loan to cardiff city for the whole of next season, is this a sign?
RR if rooney can get 25 goals this season, then, and only then will i say rooney is a dangerous striker because right now he looks mid-table at best. Harsh but true, im gonna get slated for this. if he fails to meet my target i will say bench him(assuming we buy a striker this season).
May 23rd, 2008 at 19:53
Conor, you left something out of you Tevez critique mate, that Tev has the knack of getting a vital goal at the right time, importants goals, that have saved our skin a few times this season!!!.
With regards to everybody’s debate on the Roon. In all fairness, he has had quite a few nasty injuries this season, broken foot ?x2, and hip etc. So not easy to come back and hit his best form straight away, If he can stay fit, I think he will have a great season next year, but I still believe he is only a 20 goal a season man, and same with Tev. If they can each give us 20 though, it will be nigh equivelant to what a top class striker could bring. Top class striker 30+ a season. Go on Roon, prove me wrong mate!.
May 23rd, 2008 at 20:00
antsBoy -
Its funny cos we’re all thinking actually do we ned a new right back as Brown has been immense and Neville will be ready next season, then were saying we won the champions league and premier league with just Roon and Tev all season so with the added Manucho do we need to buy striker?
Fergie has said he will be bringing in new players during the summer and I cant think of any other positions we need to strengthen other than those 2 so will be interesting to see.
Im still egging for Richards and Berbatov but with the 20m purchase of Tevez this summer that could end up being blimin expensive, probably near the 70m mark!
So I guess if we can get Huntelaar for half the price of Berba and then sale of Pique it will work out being around 50m which I guess will be peanuts compared to how much Chelsea will spend.
In the Roon vs Tev row i’d still plump for Rooney everytime. He has so much more to give than what we have seen for the majority of this season but then again he has been pushed so far forward he is still not in his ‘natural’ position. Thats where we need him to be to get the best of of him.
May 23rd, 2008 at 20:00
but craig, its been just over half a season(i think) and he still hasnt found form, if he can keep the goalscoring form before his ankle injury then fine im wrong, he was scoring in every match in that period, but its like that form will never come back and i dont want to be saying players are great because of their potential, their comes a time when you lose the potential and actually do it.
May 23rd, 2008 at 20:01
Dan and Conor - You’re both right in a sense:
Tevez - he is faster than you give him credit for, Conor and he actually has a good shot for a support striker (a recent game we dominated, don’t remember which, yes i have a very short memory
).
The problem with him for me, is that I get impression that he is always looking to touch the ball at least 4-5 times before releasing it. Too much ball keeping and not looking to release more early passes like Rooney knows how to.
Rooney - Clearly has much more potential and natural talent than Tevez, but it also lacking in confidance, What’s worrying is that he did not play as well as he should be for most of this season, and while this is understandable for one as olde as VDS or Giggs, it is less so for one as young.
And Conor, most European teams fear Rooney more than Tevez (yes, they do, Dan) simply because the English media will always talk more about Roo than Tevez, even if Roo is playing badly, and other European countries’ media pick upon what is said in English media.
So what about Rooney? Will he be able to recapture the form which rightly tagged him as world-class?
Personally I have a hunch that the answer lies within matters of another player’s - yep you guessed it, the third R of our trinity.
HAVE ANY OF GUYS NOTICED THAT ROONEY PLAYS WELL WHEN RONALDO DOESN’T???
Oh, this is not a generalisation, just a trend I noticed. We know that they get along well off the field, but somewhere I think we have a chance of seeing the true Rooney regularly when Ronnie decides to leave.
I personally wished that they could perform together, but its just that I never really noticed a spell of games where they actually did…
May 23rd, 2008 at 20:06
Craig; Don’t get me wrong, I think Tevez is absolutely brilliant. Without him this season there is not a doubt in my mind that we wouldn’t have won the league. I already see Tevez as well on the way to becoming a legend.
But saying that if you don’t score 30 goals a season then you are not a top striker is wrong. Was Bergkamp not top class? Or King Eric? He scored 60 goals in 5 seasons, is he still not one of the most talented players to have ever played for us?
Dan; Why? His record is better than Bergkamp’s, which is 1 in ever 3.6 games, or Zola’s, which is one in every 3.8 games. They were still two of the best strikers the Premier League has ever seen. King Eric’s and Rooney’s are almost exactly the same, 2.25 compared to 2.3, yet King Eric is hailed as one of our best ever players and Rooney apparently should be benched.
May 23rd, 2008 at 20:07
Yup forget the whole of this season but i thought Rooney really did not turn up for the final,
he looked like he was never interested in the game.He never had the energy in the final and
was rightly subbed.Fergie changed his position in the 2nd half but i thought he was poor in the
first half..He was absent for the whole of the match..Ronaldo was much better than rooney…Maybe
rooney is losing his touch…something fergie should address in the summer..
May 23rd, 2008 at 20:08
i think nico has given the most accurate comparison out of both of us conor but im still gonna rate tevez higher.
May 23rd, 2008 at 20:08
I think Rooney may have a mental problem with the fact that Ronaldo is now the golden boy of united and not him and he strugles to deal with it. I sometimes wonder if he tries to over impress and that causes problems with his composure. Just a thought!
May 23rd, 2008 at 20:15
thos stats mean nothing, if ronaldo scored no goals next season or even better, torres scored 5-10 goals, his record would go dramatically down. same with ronaldo, plus those players have played plenty more games then rooney.
May 23rd, 2008 at 20:16
Dan; Those stats mean plenty if you are saying that someone with Rooney’s record is a mid-table player. What is your point about if Torres or Ronaldo scored less? It has no bearing on whether Rooney is a good player. Rooney’s goalscoring record is better than Zola’s and Bergkamp’s, is he a better player? I have no affinity to the England team, so the fact that Rooney is English means nothing to me. I also quite like Argentina because of the way they play football, it doesn’t change my opinion of him at all.
May 23rd, 2008 at 20:27
dude, im not trying to change your opinion, you started this argument not me, so why would i try and change your opinion, i’ll respect your opinion, everyone has the right to one, but i really dont care what you or your stats say, they are not going to change my opinion on this matter.
i dont want to seem like a dick, but why is it everything i say, you seem to object? you have your views fine, but its like positive and negative with us, we seem to always differ on subjects, and to me it seems you like to start it, am i wrong?
May 23rd, 2008 at 20:30
Dan; I’m asking you to back up your opinions with facts and a decent argument. I don’t care about changing your opinion. So tell me, since Rooney’s goalscoring record is better than Zola’s and Bergkamp’s, is he a better player?
May 23rd, 2008 at 20:31
[Dan]
Why is it that when someone argues with you with a reasoning do you have to get pissed off and hit back?
He’s making an argument, you don’t have to hit back and say “I don’t care”. He didn’t attack you did he?
May 23rd, 2008 at 20:32
[Dan]
And clearly Conor is not trying to change your opinion. He is reasoning with you, which is entirely different.
May 23rd, 2008 at 20:48
Conor, I know you weren’t saying you didn’t like Tev mate!. I mentioned 30+ a season but I said for a TOP striker, or those considered to be PROLIFIC!. Perhaps that’s the word I should have used. My main point I was trying to get across Conor, was that if we have two strikers like Tev and Roon who get up to 20 a season each, that is equivelant to having a 30+ prolific striker, like Ronnie at present, and Ruud, Henry or Torres. As goal difference becomes more and more of a possible decider of separating the 4 top teams, then I know they want players who can bag plenty of them. So to answer you question, that’s why goals do matter!.
Dan(u-ol), I hear you mate. But I think Rooney’s form has been effected by his injuries this season. However, I would concede that he has missed a lot of one on ones with the keeper, and over-elaborated in other of his attempts on goal. I do believe his goalscoring form will return though Dan, and to be honest, HE NEEDS TO PLAY IN HIS RIGHT POSITION FOR THAT TO HAPPEN. Always been played out of his natural habitat has not helped him. I have a feeling he won’t disappoint you this next season Dan. But I can see why you love Apache Tev. I love him too. Tev, Nani, Hargo and Rio are my faves, with Vid and Brown closely near them LOL!.
May 23rd, 2008 at 20:56
Just to interject here for a sec…any news on the right back position?
I also wish we could get a lot more forward fluency on the right wing…like we get on the left when Ronaldo and Evra play together…they seem much more potent there…if that makes any sense.
May 23rd, 2008 at 21:01
Hey guys forget roon’s problems Sir Alex might have a plan so lets just leave that there.by the way
the City council has denied us a parade This blows and they are stating the Rangers fan’s misbehaviour earlier as
the reason not to hold a parade in Manchester.Well this is Horseshit and I am Sure all the officials
support frickin man city they just frickin cant stand our sucess even after sinatra spent all that
frickin money bloody assholes.Cops are full of shit man…
May 23rd, 2008 at 21:04
Conor, with respect to your comparison of Rooney with Cantona and Bergkamp, I quite agree with your point.
But still Cantona and Bergkamp had a much bigger footballing brain, meaning that dangerous actions would rarely peter out if possession was with them. If Rooney can develop his brain, i.e. playing in triangles, one deft dribble/touch to eliminate marker and immediately shoot or provide an assist, then he would reach the level of these all time greats. Clearly this season, he has not done that. But, we all know he has the necessary skills to develop that.
Oh, and you guys forget about Rooney imprving in the summer what with his forthcoming marriage! Most probably he’ll put on a few kilos before the start of pre-season!
May 23rd, 2008 at 21:24
Nico; I know that, I don’t expect Rooney to ever have the footballing brain of King Eric or Bergkamp, some of the goals they scored were class personified. I was just trying to point out that even some of the best players are not prolific.
Craig; I understand now, and I full agree. I’d be perfectly happy to have a Huntelaar or Gomez or whoever if they were willing to accept that they would need to establish themselves rather than walk right into the team, like Eto’o probably would. Goals are the most important thing in football, but they are not the be all and end all, I think it is clear we both realise that.
Finally, Evra is not one of your favourites?
The thing about our team is that there are so many likeable players, unlike Chelsea who are definitely full of people who are easily to dislike.
On this subject, Vidic recently had an interview and he seems like a really genuine person, never mind the fact he is an absolute monster. I would give him my MOTM in the Champions League final for a display which should tell the world he is definitely on his way to becoming one of the best defenders in Europe.
Dan; I’m sorry if you think I am trying to make an argument out of nothing, but if you look at Craig and Nico and pretty much everyone else here, they expand on their points. When you do you make a pretty damn good argument, it makes it easier to understand where you are coming from.
May 23rd, 2008 at 21:37
i already have expanded on my points though, i respect your view but im still going to say tevez is better.
Craig, ok injury has effected rooney, but not having a break from football since 2004 must have effects to, and this is his first full season in english football to, next season tevez will be even better, with a proper rest, and a season and a half worth of english football experience under his belt.
conor sorry mate for accusing you like that, im having to deal with a very stressful family row right now and utd is one of the only good things right now, take no notice of it.
But im still going to say tevez is better.
May 23rd, 2008 at 21:37
Some more Terry laughs — and from an Arsenal blog too — in this link, open the audio link at the end of the post (click play button) and somewhere in the beginning of it (about the one minute mark)
May 23rd, 2008 at 21:47
Dan; No worries, no need to apologize on this blog to me, ever. I take everything here in a light hearted way, and it just makes things even better since we have just won the league.
Red Ranter;
I’ve been on that blog a few times and I’ve already subscribed to his podcast, the blogger is a funny character I must say. It happens at the 1:21 minute mark.
May 23rd, 2008 at 21:51
I listen regularly to his podcast (Arsecasts) because the guy is funny. If you ignore the bias, it’s very entertaining.
May 23rd, 2008 at 22:06
It was funny RR but going there and listening to his blog felt like walking in and accidentally ordering a drink in a gay bar. It just felt wrong.
May 23rd, 2008 at 22:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOmd2ChXLbc
‘Average premier league striker’
May 23rd, 2008 at 22:12
[Grognard]
As I said, if you ignore the bias he’s pretty funny. Especially considering the various funny segments on his podcast.
That said I do listen to different podcasts and read a wide variety of blogs for perspective.
May 23rd, 2008 at 22:39
Conor - Evra is ok, in fact all United players are!. But if everyone on this blog was asked to do a questionaire on who their fave players in the team were and why, I think it would be colourful and interesting to hear what draws us to certain people in life and not to others!. The characteristics that draw us out to other people differs mightily with each of us. What do I love about my fave players?. Apache Tev - big heart, combatant, winning mentality but controls his aggression not mixing it with oppenents or officials. Nani - is shy really, and so desperate to be loved and accepted by the fans, as he sees his friends Ronnie and Andi are!. Something makes me want to champion his cause always. Rio is maturing so much into responsibility for his and the teams karma whilst on the field. Hargo is just such a decent person, another combatant and winner who gives his all, but fights fairly. Those are just a few of the things that draw me to these players in particular, but everybody has their own faves, and their own reasons for loving them. Who are your faves Conor, obv Evra is one of them - right?
May 23rd, 2008 at 22:41
Red Ranter I can’t compare Rooney to Cantona they are both great players and they are both TOP players in terms of technique. But I DO LOVE THE CURLING OF THE BALL. It means perfect striking ability -both on shooting and passing- and maybe better than Cantona’s . ROONEY NEVER TAKES THE FREE ROLE CANTONA DID. WHEN HE DID THEN HE DID THIS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XihbbX7D2_4
He should begin as an attacking midfielder/shadow striker
BUT SAF KNOWS BETTER I GUESS. Maybe he is in love with Ronaldo and Queiroz…Anyway,ROONEY IS NOT AN “IN THE BOX” LONE STRIKER
May 23rd, 2008 at 22:53
Craig; You make a fair point. I like Hargreaves, Evra and Tevez for their enthusiasm and Rooney for his impact on the team
Evra is the one for me though. He appreciates our club’s history, he seems like a decent person, he never stops running and he doesn’t fail to excite me. Plus, he just gets better and better every day.
May 23rd, 2008 at 22:56
all this rooney playing his preferred position talk is non-sense, if any of you havent seen the many interviews he has had this season, leading Striker IS his favoured position. hes said it time and time again that he enjoys playing in that position more than anywhere else
May 23rd, 2008 at 23:05
Mike, I don’t think people were debating Roon’s PREFERRED position, but the position he seems to be best at, which is not an out and out striker im my honest opinion. He appears to play better just behing the main striker. He may enoy the main striker as his favoured position, and doesn’t complain wherever Fergie plays him, but in most fans eyes he does seem to play better just off a main striker.
May 23rd, 2008 at 23:06
And a final word from me about the whole issue of respecting Chelsea. I just thought briefly about players in Chelsea that I would consider players of some integrity (and hence would respect): I can’t think beyond Essien and Cech.
Goes to show how despicable they really are. Sorry, I can’t have any sympathy for them.
May 23rd, 2008 at 23:11
Red Ranter; Totally agree.
Mike; In a question and answer interview this is what Rooney said:
Q What is your favourite position, if you were going to pick the team yourself?
A “I don’t know to be honest. Obviously I’m not going to be picking the England team, that’s down to the manager and wherever he wants me to play I’ll play.â€
He has always been happy to play wherever he is asked, and he doesn’t quite know where his best position is. His willingness is a benefit and a disadvantage for him and us both.
Source
May 23rd, 2008 at 23:17
Conor, Evra is into knowing and caring about United history yes!. He is not the usual stereotype footballer. He is a thinking, caring dude seemingly. I was watching his post CL final interview earlier on MUTV, and he was saying that he wanted to dedicate the win to Prince Albert and his team mates from his Monaco time. Apparently Prince Albert had asked him when Monaco were in the CL final to win it in memory of Prince Ranier. Evra was very sad they lost the game, and he couldn’t honour the Prince Ranier. He also said that if United has not won, then he would have felt himself an unlucky black cat, and would have asked Fergie not to play him in any other CL finals. So yeah, deep, deep thinker and very sensitive guy. The kind if we went down the pub with, he would get all philosophical by the end of the night lol!.
May 23rd, 2008 at 23:24
[Craig]
He’s also mad. But in a funny way
May 23rd, 2008 at 23:24
RR i wouldn’t venture so far as to include essien in that list even though he’s definitely a united fan…flopping bastard that he is…
http://tribalfootball.com/comments.php?id=94438
go here and let out more of your joyful ire on those disgraceful scavenging madrid cunts who are intent on distracting from this, our most happy of occasions…im daddy on the forum btw..
yes i know its a crap website, tribal, but its really addictive….it is ///:)
May 23rd, 2008 at 23:30
Haha - that too Red Ranter!.
May 23rd, 2008 at 23:32
why the infighting? one would think we just went out in the group stages…enjoy …dan et connor….
May 23rd, 2008 at 23:38
Call me knipicky but I’m feeling great!
Short term memory lasts between 20 and 100 seconds (depending