Aug 01
Ten Indicators For United’s 08/09 Season
Apologies for the extended period of quiet from my side (note, please, that I am not RR, who has done an admirable job of keeping the site going and everyone interested during what has the most boring, repetitive, inconclusive and tedious close season in living memory). When I say that the cricket has been far more interesting than anything to do with football recently, I think I have said all.
In the continuing absence of any concrete developments from the summer, I want to look back on our staggeringly successful last season and draw out some of the reasons why we were so damn good. These apply both to why we’ve gone from being written off in the summer of ‘06 to the best team in Europe, and also what we did even better in 07/08 to achieve such heights. Then I’m going to darken the tone slightly by picking up three things which could scupper our chances.
THE POSITIVES
1. Squad depth
Last season, with the exception of centre forward, we had high class cover right across the board. Not only high class cover, in fact, but a lot more than 11 players who deserved and were fighting for a first team spot. This allowed us to cope with all the injuries thrown our way; but more importantly, to have genuine flexibility to mix and match our team to suit the exact circumstances.
2. Weakness of our rivals
Arsenal had a great first XI, but as soon as form, fitness and fatigue scratched that surface they were gone. So, this summer they have sold two first team regulars…as much as we now (patronisingly) applaud Wenger, he really is a masochist.
Liverpool had two great players (Torres and Gerrard), one fouling centre back who the press often call great (Carragher), an amusingly foul-mouthed midfielder (Mascherano - thanks again for that red card), a few has-beens (Finnan, Hyppia, Riise), a few might-yet-bes (Babel, that kid they play at right back), and some journeymen / donkeys (Crouch, Kuyt, Pennant, Kewell)….sorry, did I get carried away there? What I meant was that they were entirely reliant (as opposed to over-reliant) on two players.
Chelski were unlucky with injuries, but that said the African Nations was a fairly predictable drain on their resources and Mourinho bought badly last summer (Malouda, Alex, Ben Haim & Pizarro, none of whom were good enough for their first team). And the upheaval of Mourinho’s departure was entirely caused by their owner.
The good thing is that what little activity there has been so far this summer has made Arsenal’s plight worse, kept Liverpool broadly the same (although Keane could be a good signing) and left Chelsea up in the air (what if Drogba and Lampard leave next week, just before the season starts?)
3. The fear factor’s back
In the depths of our three-year slump, the most damaging development was that we had lost the fear factor. Teams used to turn up not shaking in fear and hoping to keep it down to 2-0, but genuinely thinking they could win. So they had a go, and against our weakened team came away with points far too often. Last season they were 1-0 down in the coach on the way to the game again, and it showed.
4. Everyone taking responsibility
In previous times, when we have had to bring in John O’Shea, Darren Fletcher, Ji-Sung Park and co they have played like second stringers. Like good, old-fashioned triers, but ones who know they’re not quite cut out to be in the exalted company they are in. But last season, they were. Anderson and Nani played like present day stars, not ones for the future. Wes Brown was an integral part of our stingiest ever defence, including a quite sensational performance in the second leg against Barcelona. Hargreaves rose above his disappointments to be our most consistent player in the last month of the season. Park, too, played like a man possessed for that month. Even Silvestre came back into the first team against Chelski and gave a good impression of a regular left back.
Not only did we have squad depth, but the quality, maturity and attitude was spot on right through the squad.
5. Confidence in the tough games
Often the difference between a good season and a great season is performance in the so-called “six-pointers”. But since that doesn’t extend to the Champions League, let’s just use the less snappy phrase “games against other elite clubs”. Whereas in some previous seasons this has been our weakness, this time round we were superb, with only the last minute penalty against Chelski blotting our copybook (even that in a game where we played a below-par team):
Chelski: W 2, L 1
Arsenal: W 1, D 1
Liverpool: W 2
Barca: W 1, D 1
Roma: W 3, D 1
Overall: P 13, W 9, D 3, L 1.
6. Suitability for Europe
Our squad and style of play is now much more suited to success in Europe. With the very honourable exception of 1999, it doesn’t often wash in Europe to have a flimsy defence and rely on scoring heavily. Most of the top sides, particularly in Italy, are too good to be overwhelmed defensively, so keeping clean sheets is much more important. Equally, we had the players to make the 4-3-2-1 system work properly against better teams, with plenty of players all over the pitch who could provide solid defence and then switch effortlessly into fluent attack (Evra, Carrick, Rooney and Tevez to name but four).
7. Prospects for the future
Well, with the exception of Ronaldo, this squad has the potential to grow together for the next five or so years. In fact, last year’s squad had a somewhat raw feel to it in midfield and attack at times. Tevez took a while to settle in, Anderson stepped up magnificently but failed to score a single goal, Nani’s decision-making looks like Ronaldo’s did four years ago and Hargreaves was out of sorts until April. We can expect a lot more from these players and others this coming season.
THE NEGATIVES
1. No standout assistant manager
It’s no great secret that we’ve always struggled when Fergie hasn’t had a first class coach working with him. Brian Kidd, Steve McClaren and Carlos Queiroz have all been integral parts of our best sides; their ability to devise cutting-edge training routines and support the squad in a complementary was to Fergie were essential. It doesn’t look like we’re going to start the season with a “specialist” assistant, with various of Fergie’s underlings helping out. That makes me nervous.
2. Reduced return from Ronaldo
No secrets here. With Ronaldo out for the start of the season, and questionably motivated thereafter, we need others to stand up and be counted. Big season for Wayne Rooney, and whichever striker we buy (I’m still confident of Berbatov) needs to hit the ground running. We can’t afford another start like last season.
3. We were lucky with injuries last time round
I mean, I know Vidic was injured for most of the last two months, Scholes missed a lot of games before Christmas and Gary Neville didn’t play at all. But we had most of our key players fit most of the time, and we can’t rely on that again. If Rooney missed injures himself on the first day again, for example, we could be in serious trouble by the time he and Ronaldo return. Equally, our defence wasn’t quite the same without Rio and Vidic at its heart. We have a great squad, but injuries could still screw us.
That’s my lot. Any themes you would draw attention to?
Related items from Red Rants:- United’s £100k+ Christmas party, useless Shorey, Arsenal will stumble and of course, Rooney is better than Kaka
- Manchester United’s Munich tribute on 6 Feb 2008
- Who Is Your Choice For United’s Number 2?
- Who is your Manchester United’s Player Of The Month for November?
- Brown, Lahm - United’s Right Back Situation | And Some Thoughts on Nani
Tags: Opinions/Columns
August 1st, 2008 at 11:02
For me a big question of this season is simply desire. There are some players I don’t see this being a problem - Rooney, Tevez and Hargo don’t seem to have any issues getting motivated. But some others do concern me, Evra, Rio and to an extent Carrick. We achieved great things last year, but really gave everything on the pitch. Team spirit was something special, and while I trust Fergie, I worry it won’t be easy to recreate that again, after two years winning the league and the CL last year.
Re: Berbatov - does anyone else worry we’ve given up? I mean, community shield is next weekend, and we have a bunch of friendlies before then. Is he going to get a single game to integrate? Tevez far from excelled when he first joined right before the season started last year, and I could see the same from Berba. I think Fergie is being stubborn. If we’re not going to get him within a couple days, look elsewhere.
August 1st, 2008 at 11:05
@Beachryan: I think Spurs are waiting on Arshavin/Pavlyuchenko deal to go through.
August 1st, 2008 at 11:10
@Beachryan: Are you sure Rio was probably our best player last season and Evra was superb, pos agree with Carrick.
August 1st, 2008 at 11:55
@ Redranter - hopefully, but I would have thought having £25m in the bank would help their purchase.
@ Stephen - I agree they were superb, but I just see it in their personalities to get complacent. Happy to be proved wrong!
August 1st, 2008 at 11:59
@Beachryan: I think you will mate, Rio is a different person than he was, I would be more worried about Ronaldo’s commitment and attitude and how that could rub off on Nani and Anderson.
August 1st, 2008 at 12:28
@Stephen: Dont worry about anderson! He is a down to earth lad who is LOYAL! its written on his face! Its them portugese and spanish that i cant trust!
August 1st, 2008 at 12:40
@Beachryan: What is it in Evra’s, Rio’s and Carrick’s personalities that will hinder them from being top motivated again?
August 1st, 2008 at 12:46
They just strike me as those most likely to take their foot off the gas. I hope Fergie won’t let anyone do that, dunno, just my gut feeling!
And yes, Cristiano will defo be a concern, but I don’t think he has as much sway over Nani and Anderson as we fear. Don’t know much of Nani but Ando seems a solid kid.
Fingers crossed it won’t be a problem, just listing my concerns for next season (on top of Penguin’s ‘of course!)
August 1st, 2008 at 13:07
@Stephen: Sometimes I feel the Boss should just call Ronaldo and all others and outright tell them that United will not do any business with Real at any costs! Plain and Simple!! All those harboring any hopes of playing for Real should just step out, and he then just makes them play for Reserves wearing “I Hate Real” jerseys for the rest of their contracts! If they still want to go to Real Circus after that they are welcome to do that.
I wish SAF really had the willpower to do that at least to Ronaldo! He has acted like a complete idiot all this summer. And I wish somebody could just put a huge “NOT OPEN for Real” banner at the gates of OT!!
Of course it is just a fantasy
August 1st, 2008 at 13:29
@jos: I agree mate, it would be wonderful
August 1st, 2008 at 13:48
Random knowledge q: When we won the league and the community shield last season - is that the first time it has happened? I know in the community shield they always talk about the ‘curse’ of not winning hte prem if you win that trophy, would be cool if we were first to win both..
August 1st, 2008 at 13:56
@Beachryan: We did the same in 93/94 and 96/97, and Chelsea did it in 05/06.
So the curse is a bit exaggerated, unless you’re an Arsenal fan….
August 1st, 2008 at 14:05
I actually disagree that Ronaldo will be demotivated next season. He might have become a “team-player”, but that doesn’t mean he plays for the team. He plays for himself and always has done. He is motivated by being a great player, not by being a United player. I think he’ll play better if anything.
August 1st, 2008 at 14:15
Although I have lost respect for Cristiano Ronaldo…
Must admit that he will never play badly and he is an extremely hard worker. That’s why he is the best player in the world, because of his determination.
He has always been that way… Even before he came to Man Utd and I just don’t see that changing.
Altough I would love for him to get out of our club, if he doesn’t he will still be as good as ever…
August 1st, 2008 at 14:33
@MoYa: Wrong! At united! Everyone supplies him with the ball! I dont think that Raul and Van nistelrooy would be happy to do that! And with the added pressure there I doubt if he will ever be so great!
August 1st, 2008 at 14:41
Vote for our boy Giggsy: http://www.goldenfoot.com/T_voting.cfm?
August 1st, 2008 at 14:45
I agree with Red Diablo on that point. He’d play well for us next season, but might not fare so well at Real where it’s every man for himself, and the egos get in the way of true team play. No-one there will accept they have to take a back seat (a la Rooney) for the sake of the team. They are ruthless. There is no arm around the shoulder there if you have a few bad games, no forgiveness for mistakes, no nurturing. United would have been the best place for him to continue his development. I hope he goes, and we get to see if he’s the finished article he thinks he is.
August 1st, 2008 at 15:07
I am sure many are looking forward to ‘Boo’ him. i am not gonna argue if its OK or not
because cause I’m not sure whats right,
but last time I checked ‘he plays his best when he is booed’
August 1st, 2008 at 15:12
@Beachryan: Ok mate, I gotta disagree with you there about the de-motivated players. Evra, Rio and Carrick are all exemplary professionals who would never let the team down in any way, shape or form. Evra has talked abut how lucky he is to play for United (and has even done his homework on our history! What foreign player would do that??!), Carrick has droned on this summer about how coming to us was the best decision he has ever made in his life, and Rio has signed on for the rest of his career. These players are fully commited to United and will give nothing less than 110%. If anything, this years success will drive them on to achieve the same again or even more next season. That is what being a United player is all about. You need hunger and desire to survive at Old Trafford, or else woe betide, Fergie will show you the door a la Beckham, van Nistelrooy and countless others…
@Penguin: Mate I must say that I disagree with you about Hargreaves. He might have had those on-off tendonitis problems throughout the season, but when he did play, notably against Arsenal at the Emirates (where he stifled Fabregás along with Anderson), Liverpool at Anfield and Roma at OT) he did put in excellent performances. He just wasn’t able to steer clear of injury for more than 2-3 games, but granted, he did come into his own in the last month or so of the season.
August 1st, 2008 at 15:16
I don’t think Rio will have any problems getting motivated. There is a reason he was selected our captain last season and as a part time captain for England. I think the new Rio has too much pride to slack off. If any of the lads do indeed slack off I would guess Rio would be one of the first to let them know. As for Evra, he is every bit of a true professional for me. Carrick just doesn’t “look” like he’s always fully motivated, but he will be fighting for a spot just like anyone else in our crowded midfeild andwouldn’t expect him to take anything for granted.
August 1st, 2008 at 15:24
@Beachryan: We have seen absolutely nothing to suggest that Evra or Carrick might be demotivated, and quite the reverse for Rio. I think you’ve just picked up players who seem a bit more relaxed and decided that means uncommitted.
Equally, @others, I’m not worried about Ronaldo per se. He has too much to lose from having a dodgy season (best player in the world tag, CR7 brand, etc). Having a big ego has it’s advantages. I am, though, genuinely worried about the destabilising effect his eventual departure combined with CQ’s will have on Nani, Anderson & co.
August 1st, 2008 at 15:25
@Nino: I didn’t mean to give the impression that Hargreaves was rubbish until April. He did put in some very good performances, but only sporadically. I more meant that he wasn’t an influential member of our team until the late stages - he was more a useful squad player until then.
August 1st, 2008 at 15:54
@Red Diablo:
Fair points you raise. Though the Real Madrid of today is not like the Madrid of before in a sense that the “galactico” era is over. There is now a lot more team play. They certainly have their hierachy problems, but not as bad as before.
They want the best players in the world and I think he would triumph above them all. We both know how individualistic Ronaldo is.
August 1st, 2008 at 16:08
Good point. But if he doesn’t perform like he did last year, every year, he will get slated. Will be interesting to see. “Individualistic” is one of the nicest things I’ve heard a Red call Ronnie in while!!!!!”
August 1st, 2008 at 16:40
It seems to me that Fergie’s comments that “it is difficult to know where a player will be in two
weeks time” and that “he would not like to talk about what is likely to happen in this club” is
a heavy hint that he is giving up in trying to keep Ronaldo
http://sport.setanta.com/en/Sport/News/Football/2008/08/01/Premier-League-Ferguson-on-loyalty/
August 1st, 2008 at 17:38
@frankie: I don’t think it has anything to do with Ronaldo specifically, but players in general.
I doubt, he’s giving up on keeping Ronaldo.
August 1st, 2008 at 17:40
@MoYa: Up until now he has never had the negative emotions to challenge his professional work ethic. Not getting his way may actually alter his mind set and cause him to not give 100%. That’s only normal and despite everything, he is not a machine but a human being with flawed values. I do worry how well he will commit to the team and how he will go in to situations where he may be at risk of being fouled hard. Will he have the same gusto? But my biggest concern is that not only will we miss him for a fair amount of early games, but when he comes back, he will not be match fit and he will not be 100% fit from his injury. It may take as much as another 5 to 10 games before we see the Ronaldo of old. Does United have what it takes to wait that long?
Penguin talks about about Liverpool being a two man team but in my opinion United are a one man team. Now before everybody jumps down my throat, let me explain. Yes we have a far superior side to Liverpool and probably Arsenal and Chelsea to even without Ronaldo but lets not forget that he scored 42 goals last season and 31 of our 80 EPL goals. I’d say he is a significant part if not incredibly vital part of our team’s engine. Without him I think we start to show the signs of a team that’s good but wanting. Perhaps Berbatov can help in that area but I still feel that our style and influence on the team is catered to Ronaldo and everything positive passes through him in our attacking approach to the game. I’m honestly shaking at the thought of how bad we may look without him and especially without him and Nani for the first two games of the season. Every point is valuable and so losing a few games early could come back and haunt us. No Ronaldo for several games and no Nani for two games concerns me greatly and I don’t see Fergie putting enough concern in that fact by buying yet one more RMF/RW player for added insurance. Buy Sanchez for crying out loud. Just pay the money and get him. Buy him now rather than next year and let him get the experience that Nani got last year. For all our depth, we do not have the quality to replace Ronaldo for a long stretch of games and I can just see us now trying to break down defenses that play ten men behind the ball without our top surgeon in place to start dissecting those defenses. Sure I’m being negative, but mark my words, six games in to the season you all will be too. I just have a bad feeling about this. Ronaldo’s surgery should have happened 3 weeks before it actually did. What the Hell were they thinking?
August 1st, 2008 at 17:43
@frankie: from the quote it looks more like he was talking about the possibility of Solskjaer taking over from him when he retires, which he said before would be in 2 years time.
also van der vaat for £7million? where were we!!
August 1st, 2008 at 17:49
@frankie: Fergie has gone out on a limb to tell everyone that Ronaldo is going nowhere. From what I have seen over 25 years is that he is a man of his word and he is not one to back down, give in or compromise his beliefs or his values and if Ronaldo thinks he can waltz in to the Boss’ office next week and demand a transfer, he better be prepared for the hairdryer and a possible boot to the nether regions. But I don’t think that is going to happen. The article from yesterday quoting Ronaldo has already been dismissed as BS by Ronaldo’s agent and I think Ronaldo has resigned himself to the fact that he’s not going anywhere. What may exist right now is his insecurity and fear of what to expect from the Boss, his teammates and of course the supporters of the club. Not unlike what happened to him after the last World Cup. Fergie does not lose battles like these and even though I would prefer he sold the player and replaced him with a player like Aguero, that’s not going to happen. Not on Sir Alex Ferguson’s watch. The man is a stubborn old Scotsman and Caesar to his team. Some pleb like Ronaldo is not going to beat Caesar in a battle of wits and determination. Fergie will throw him to the lions before he lets him win this battle of wills.
August 1st, 2008 at 17:50
@Grognard: You may be right, but bear in mind two things:
a) Last season, our entire team was set up to maximise Ronaldo’s impact. This is not a bad thing - he was so hot it would have been silly to do anything else.
b) We never had to cope without Ronaldo for a long stretch last season, so we don’t know what a non-Ronaldo team looks like or how it would do.
It’s never going to be as good, but it may not be as bad as you think. If Ronaldo hadn’t scored all those goals, someone else would have been in the team and we’d have been trying something different - who knows whether that something different would have worked.
I’m not saying you’re wrong - I worry about that sort of thing too - just that you’re being pessimistic. Surely Fergie had a Plan B for last season if one of those bad tackles had taken Ronaldo’s leg off?
August 1st, 2008 at 17:51
@Grognard: And that’s why we love him. Fergie, that is. What a legend.
August 1st, 2008 at 17:56
@Traverse: Obviously Fergie does not feel we need anyone for that position. I think he is content with Scholes and is happy with the progress of Anderson. For me, Anderson has to show a lot more finesse and scoring ability before I crown him Scholes heir but then again, I don’t see him in practice everyday and of course Fergie knows better than all of us what is going on and who is doing what. What I do not understand is why we are not trying to sign a RMF/RW like Sanchez? Along with Berbatov that is what we need, regardless of whether Ronaldo stays or leaves. I am still not sure about Nani and lets face it, Giggs is past his best and Park is very limited offensively. We need another understudy like a Sanchez, a Marin or Ninis to come to the team and grow like Ronaldo did. Don’t wait until Giggs retires to look for that player if that player is available now. Especially with our present injury and suspension problems this early in the year. I just don’t get it.
August 1st, 2008 at 17:57
Ronaldo is staying, he doesn’t want to, Fergie knows he will be only @ United for another couple of seasons, so he probably is looking afer himself, Ok don’t blame him, but if/when he reitres in two years then his successer does already has a problem on his hands.
August 1st, 2008 at 17:59
@Grognard: Lee Martin, anyone?
August 1st, 2008 at 18:11
@Penguin: Let s put it this way, how badly did United look early last year without Rooney? No matter how hard they try and no matter what Fergie draws up on the chalkboard, the team does not play well when Rooney is not in the lineup. The same can be said for Ronaldo. And it’s not an easy thing to do this changing things up and retraining the lads to play a different style and put emphasis on different things when Ronaldo is not in the lineup. Massive changes in philosophy and style take weeks and weeks to implement properly and I don’t think United have the time to test the waters. They need an influx of world class talent like Berbatov and another play making winger like a Sanchez to cover up the lack of domination we offer when Ronaldo is in the lineup with Rooney. My God, what happens if we lose Rooney to an injury?
The only time I ever really have a right to question Fergie is when he isn’t thinking ahead of things in case of injuries. He blew it big time last year when he let Rossi go. He did this after Rooney had already injured himself. How on Earth could he have put so much trust and faith in Louis Saha staying healthy? He flat out blew it and for large parts of last year we were playing with only two forwards and Welbeck on the bench. Injuries today are at epidemic proportions because tackling and marking is far more severe and determined than in past generations. Players are faster than they were and the faster you go, the more pain that will come out of a collision or bad tackle. We were very very lucky last year when it comes to our injuries. I doubt we will get off so lucky this year. We already have taken a massive hit early on before we even played one game with Ronaldo’s delayed surgery. You wrote about our depth last year being great except for up front. I agree but a year changes everything. Scholes and Giggs are a year older and we still stuck with two forwards and Saha. Forgive me for saying this but am I missing something here? Where the Hell is the urgency at OT to cover their asses? An injury to either Tevez or Rooney and to either Nani or Giggs and we can kiss our title hopes away. It’s that simple. This team is not set up for worst case scenarios. Is that being overly optimistic and positive, or naive and blind?
August 1st, 2008 at 18:13
@Penguin: You have got to be kidding me mate? Lee Martin. What the Hell is a Lee Martin? I’m not about to bank our safety on a bloody British reservist. I don’t think so. United are a world class team and thus even their backups need to be close to International class in ability. Not reserve class.
August 1st, 2008 at 18:35
@Grognard: Listen mate! I disagree on one point! When Rooney did not play last year! We lost our plan AND HAD NO PLAN B! But if we get Berba! We will have a PLAN B and even though Rooney’s absence will hurt(HOPEFULLY THERE WILL BE NO ABSENCE THIS YEAR
) but i dont think that we wont be able not to win matches without him! IF we have a plan B including a NO.9 Striker!
August 1st, 2008 at 18:39
@MoYa: True mate! But you forget that Madrid will always be Madrid! I mean they sacked Capello when they finally won a title after 3 years! And if that doesnt happen then there is always their funking cunt fans! I mean they Boo’ed Higuain! The guy that won them the title due to his super sub goals! I bet a poor run and they will blast ronaldo! And thus the board will get involved as well! Do you know whatever happens they can never sack raul? Even though he is mostly out of the spanish national team! that tells you of the hieracrchy there!
August 1st, 2008 at 18:59
I’ve been sayin it for ages, we need an extra WF/SMF in our team. What if giggs or nani pick up a knock? we’re screwed!! Why wait till nxt yr to get giggsy’s replacement, when we can get him now and give him a year to adapt, hence reducing the added pressure to perform?
As per the striker situation, we should get it over with; Berba, Huntelaar, Benzema, I don’t care at this point. I just want the team to start gettin used to playing effectively without ronaldo as he will be out for a big part of the season. These few upcomin matches against stronger teams like juve and espanyol would have been a good dress-rehearsal for that new strike partnership and system.
I’m not one to critisize Fergie, as he may already be making moves behind the scenes, but some alacrity is needed, cuz we can’t afford to be testing out new play come beginning of the season, it’s too risky!!!
August 1st, 2008 at 19:11
If you only read the comments to gauge hopes for next season, you’d believe that the sky is falling.
August 1st, 2008 at 19:15
@MUFC Fan in America: HAHA! Dont worry! Have some hope! Hope after we get BERBA that is!
August 1st, 2008 at 19:48
@Red Diablo: No matter how good Berba is, he is not the same as Rooney when it comes to influence on a game. But the two of them on at the same time leaves me with some hope. But hey, lets sign him first before we place him in our starting 11. That’s also part of my point. Just pay the pricks 28 million and lets get on with it. Plan B is vital and I hope the team is practicing and adapting to a system without Ronaldo as we speak. It’s vital.
August 1st, 2008 at 19:50
@Red Diablo: They ultimate act of stupidy was sacking Jupp Heynckes after he brought them a Champions League trophy. They don’t deserve a loyal following and certainly people outside of Madrid should hate them for their negative influence on the business practices in the game today.
August 1st, 2008 at 19:51
@Gabriel: You are a wise man Gabriel. In fact, anybody who agrees with me is a wise man.
August 1st, 2008 at 19:56
@Grognard: “What the hell is a Lee Martin” hahahahaha Ive never heard anyone else say that but me. People always look at me crazy too. On that same note tho I agree with you, Lee Martin is no one to get excited about.
August 1st, 2008 at 20:04
Go over to the Sun and have a read at Fergie’s latest tirade. He’s all pissed over today’s players lacking loyalty and saying that the era of the players who spend ten years or more with the club is a thing of the past. I agree to a point with the gaffer, especially when it comes to the traitor Ronaldo but I’m sorry, this is a two way street. For all the players who have betrayed us and walked away, there have been many who have been unceremoniously shown the exit from OT well before their time. Sorry Fergie but if it’s loyalty you require, how about showing the same to David Beckham, Roy Keane, Ruud van Nistelrooy, Paul Ince, and others. None of these players wanted to leave. They just had a difference of opinion with you. Apparently your pride and intolerance for that is a greater show of disloyalty than what Ronaldo has been up to this Summer. Funny, he wants to leave and has stated so. The others didn’t want to leave but were given the boot.
Like I said, loyalty is a two way street and it should not only be shown to the servants who question nothing and keep their mouths shut like Scholes and Giggs. Some people are more extroverted and require venting their frustrations if they feel unjustly treated. Fergie can’t deal with that and thus we end up losing players who were the heart and soul of club when they were here. I’m sorry but I don’t get this hypocrisy one bit. And I don’t want excuses thrown out at me regarding the actions of these players. The bottom line is all of them were loyal to the team and had no intention of leaving the team. I understand when a player can no longer give his best and then wanting to get rid of him, but not while still in their prime. I love Fergie but obviusly their are rules and then there are Fergie rules and loyalty is defined by his dictionary and not mine.
August 1st, 2008 at 20:04
@Grognard: No team is set up for worst case scenarios. You cannot have a happy squad if it includes enough players to cope with the worst injury crisis. Players won’t play enough football and will become unsettled quickly. The idea of having a top quality replacement in every position is not realistic. Ronaldo’s injury situation is awkward. He will leave a large void at the start of the season, but he will be back for the majority of it. You don’t bring in a player just to fill a void in your team for a month or two. When ronaldo returns, where does that leave the new player? Whether you like it or not, nani has been brought in by fergie to replace giggs as the team’s first choice left winger for the foreseeable future. The new player isn’t going to take his place, that stops his development. If park was not good enough as a backup then he wouldn’t be in the squad. He wouldn’t be at united.At this moment in time we have ronaldo, nani, park and giggs as wingers. Obviously, ronaldo is a first choice pick. We should see a lot more of nani this season down the left hand side. Giggs and park, at the very least, are backup. That’s what they are there for. Bringing in a player who is good enough to be a regular starter is not the right move. Either they bring a halt to nani’s development or they are used as backup for nani and become unhappy themselves. Either way, they also mean much less games for giggs and park, meaning more unhappy players and it means having giggs and park in the squad is pointless.
August 1st, 2008 at 20:13
Well, keane was past his best. Ince didn’t want to play the way fergie asked him to. Beckham wanted to leave and is the most overrated player i have ever seen. Van nistelrooy wanted to leave.
August 1st, 2008 at 20:30
@tevez: Have you had a look at chelsea’s squad or some other big european teams, they are mostly fortified with first-rate back-up. I understand we have Ronnie, Park, Nani and Giggs, but with ronnie out for a cuple of weeks, what if nani or giggs pick up a knock in those first few games? We’re left with just two designated players in that position. It’s all just worst-case scenario, and we have to be prepared.
Also, we know Giggs might retire end of this season. Why not get the player who’s gonna fill that space left by giggs now rather than when giggs leaves? The lad would be quite young, and would have enuff time to adjust to our game/lifestyle without the added pressure of top-level consistent performances, plus he would get a decent amount of games under his belt, just like Nani last season. After all, Fergie already said giggs would play a considerably less amount of games than previous seasons.
It’s all about thinking about the future and being prepared for whatever happens. Luck, some people say helps teams win competitions; I say it is preparation meets opportunity. Everyone at the start of the new season have the same opportunity, but only the best prepared prevail at the end. I think we should be well-prepared, teams are gunning for us this season, and we have to show-up at every game!!
August 1st, 2008 at 20:38
@Grognard: Excuse me! but its the same arrogance and pride that makes FERGIE, Fergie! I mean his stricts means have been one of the most pivotal points for our success! Reality check without his anger, arrogance and ignorance! Fergie is simply not Fergie! And dont forget Cantona! Fergie didnt always have his way with him! Thats why i like berba! Even though he is like cantona, Moody! He has an angelic first touch!
Oh and not to forget with their coach! They also sold Makelele! One of their leading figures at that time! I think their captain he was at that time! As this happened, Madrid bought Beckham and Zidane said “What use of painting your rolls royce golden when you have sold your engine!” Sums it up for me! Madrid are and always will be cunts!
August 1st, 2008 at 20:39
Grognard
reading your posts you at times you crack me up, tell me this then how come portugal still have not won a trophy. come on ronaldo is that good why as he not got a european medal. man utd as a team last season were fantastic and do not take away anything the other players done last season, what about barcelona a few years ago what if ronaldinho eto’o and messi did not play would they have won. what about henry in arsenals 2004 title victory would they have won anything.
August 1st, 2008 at 20:43
@Grognard: Hey thats what i am trying to say! After this season i think that the money we get from the slave next year (PROBABLY) will be more than enough to get Ribery!
Anyway about the rooney thing! You are true! But all i was trying to say is that the matches we lost WITHOUT rooney was because we didnt have a PLAN B! And if we have a Fit NO. 9 then we will atleast have that plan B!
August 1st, 2008 at 20:49
@Grognard: What did Fergie ever do to slave boy to piss him off to madrid?
August 1st, 2008 at 20:51
Chelsea are the closest team to having first-rate backup in every position, and i put that down to abramovich’s money. I can’t see another team in the world with a stronger squad than ours.
‘I understand we have Ronnie, Park, Nani and Giggs, but with ronnie out for a cuple of weeks, what if nani or giggs pick up a knock in those first few games? We’re left with just two designated players in that position. It’s all just worst-case scenario, and we have to be prepared.’
No we don’t. We have enough players in that position already. Until they return from injury, we’ll just have to cope.
Nani is the replacement for giggs in terms of a first-choice player. Unless ronaldo leaves, we don’t need another player worthy of a first choice position. If sanchez is good enough to become a first team regular, there’s no need to bring him in. When giggs retires, someone more in the park mould should be brought in, as they are adequate cover but are not first choice picks.
August 1st, 2008 at 20:52
I am pleased to see a few people on here are seeing the need for us to invest in another winger. I pointed this out a few weeks ago and people thought that we were not that much in need to sign one. I can see that as first choice we have ronaldo and nani/giggs and park is a very able back up, but i still feel we need a winger. Do you realisee that apart from ronaldo we haven’t had a second choice right midfielder in years. People can fill in there yes, but it is not their natural position. We have ronaldo obviously, but then we have had fletcher play there (better suited to centre mid), park (naturally an attacking midfielder). Nani is apparently better right footed but has still played on the left for years and switching him would not necessarily be the best option. So i ask you when ronaldo will be out for months who to play on the right. Assumin nani plays on the left side which he is better on who do we play on the right. I would feel worried playing fletcher there for the first few games. I think that we need to invest in a young winger who we can mould. Like nani but on the right side. We all know roanldo will not be here in the next few years, so get his replacement in now so he is learns. There are however not many young wingers to purchase that i like. I would like us to buy a right sided ashley young but is there any one like him out there. Maybe we should look in another continent like africa or argentina to search. I know that grognard named a few wingers who play in germany who he was impressed with.
August 1st, 2008 at 20:55
Chaps, we are playing live right now!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7533717.stm
we just scored a sweet 2nd goal
August 1st, 2008 at 21:02
@Matthew: Dude we need to look no further than RIBERY!!! and we would even have the money after slave boy leaves! all the money to tempt
Bayern with!
August 1st, 2008 at 21:16
Red Diablo completely agree with you mate, i think that if ronaldo leaves then ribery is definitely the player we need as his replacement whatever the money is. I heard earlier in the summer after the euros that after interest from chelsea they said that they would definitely consider a bid in the region of £30 mil. I however do not think that ronaldo will leave. I know he wants to but fergie looks like he won’t sell him. Keep hearing that he wants to keep him for another year but i cannot see the point in letting his value go down and keeping him for another year. On another topic i am watching the milk cup game and am wondering what everyones opinion is of brandao is it (portugese black lad) i think.
Also red diablo just wondering if ronnie stays who you want as a winger as i cannot see ribery happy being 2nd choice.
August 1st, 2008 at 21:20
Hey isnt Park in the Olympics too?, so that means we only have Giggs and Nani as wingers!!!
Hargreaves can play there for a while but isnt a really good idea, we do need a new SMF, Swiensteiger is the player of my choice, Fergie is being stuborn and ignorant I hope he knows what hes doing, Im not one to forget all the things he have given us through the years, but it just worries me that he might have lost it.
August 1st, 2008 at 21:28
@@Matthew: umm! If we have ronaldo, i dont think that we would need another winger! I mean he hasnt got such a glorious injury record!
August 1st, 2008 at 21:40
But ronaldo is out until october and who knows how long it will take till he gets back to full fitness. I think we need a young winger who can be an under study to him as we don’t have one.
August 1st, 2008 at 21:56
stupid bitch called us man u
(watching milk cup)
August 1st, 2008 at 22:01
dan(u-ol) have you been watching alot of this cup. Just wanted to know your opinions on brandao, macheda and petrucci. Do you think they can make it.
August 1st, 2008 at 22:31
@dan(u-ol): Mate wat’s the result?
August 1st, 2008 at 22:37
@Matthew: unfortunately no, i havent been watching the competition until today, but i have been kept up to date with it on the bbc 606 boards. there are 2 young players(whos names i cant spell) that are ment to be promising talents, they’re in the england youth squads also. i saw all three of those players tonight though, macheda is a poacher, he has a nice height and will get goals. i can tell by the goal he scored today, it was quality. petrucci looks like he will get alot of assists and a fair share of goals, a true second striker i guess. and i didnt see much of the other lad, but he looked like a beast to be honest, in the tevez mold. Macheda might get a chance in the future, but most likely he and the rest of them will be sold, thats just the way we are now with the youth.
August 1st, 2008 at 22:38
@Krishnan: 3-0 united.
August 1st, 2008 at 22:45
@Grognard: OK mate, let’s try this again.
holds up large sign with SARCASM written on it
Lee Martin, anyone?
adds laughing emoticon to re-inforce said sign
August 1st, 2008 at 22:49
Iv been watching a bit of the milk cup aswell(livin in ireland its the only bit of football i can get to watch) and i have to say iv been mighty impressed with one of the young lads called Oliver Norwood. Hes a MF player who has a good touch, great passing and isnt half bad at set pieces either. He just scored a cracker of a free kick in the final. Could be 1 for the future! Brandao, Macheda and Petrucci have all played well from wat iv seen of them. Macheda finished the cup wit 6 goals and brando and petrucci scored a few as well.
August 1st, 2008 at 23:03
Matthew
you said we dont have an up and coming winger heard if the name nani. I realy think tevez is going to have a monster season and if they anyone thinks rooney and tevez are not good enough upfront for united then they should be send to the looney bin.
August 1st, 2008 at 23:18
@Grognard: Sorry, but these sound a bit contradictory:
Sounds like praise to me - it’s certainly written as though you approve.
….What? So just because someone wants to stay, they should be allowed to? This is a professional football team, not an old boys club. You get your place in the squad on merit alone. If you’re good enough to be in the squad, you get your place in the team, again on merit alone. Let’s look at these four:
Beckham - Two main faults by the time he left. The first was switching his primary allegiance to Brand Beckham - every spare moment he spent promoting Brand Beckham, causing a huge media circus to follow everywhere. Great for shirt sales, much less good for team morale when everyone feels like a sideshow in the Life of Beckham.
But also, and most people forget this, Beckham’s performances on the field had slipped to the point where he was no longer first choice. He had decided (note, not told by Fergie - decided himself) that he wanted to be a central midfield player. You rarely saw him with chalk on his boots, getting to the by-line and whipping in those deadly crosses. He hung back to play champagne diagonal balls, lurked to try long range pot shots and tried to play intricate balls through the middle. He was so taken in by his hype that he forgot what he was good at. And in the big games that season, Solskjaer played instead of him on the right side and played bloody well. Maybe didn’t deserve to be in the squad, maybe didn’t deserve to be in the team - so Fergie got rid.
Keane - Keano was a shadow of his former self by the time he was shown the door. Injury prone, a bit slow and without the energy to play box-to-box. We had to play a totally different formation to accomodate him in the team. Not only that, but he was raging against the dying of the light in a spectacular way. Grievances with other members of the squad were aired in public, and it’s not only Fergie who views that as a betrayal of the whole squad. Maybe didn’t deserve to be in the squad, maybe didn’t deserve to be in the team - so Fergie got rid.
And actually to keep Keano for as long as he did was an act of blind loyalty for Fergie, one which in retrospect delayed the regeneration.
Ruud - by the time Fergie dropped him for the Carling Cup final, Ruud had begun to view the entire team as a mechanism for providing him with goals. He scored a hell of a lot of them, but there was no room for anyone else. He would, ironically, be the ideal signing now - but as the last piece of the puzzle, who knows he is coming into a damn good team and is there to enhance what we already have. NOT to be the centrepiece, the main main, which is what he saw himself as by the end.
As for the squad angle, he responded to getting dropped by sulking and demanding to play again. Not by working his socks off in training, or playing like a man possessed whenever he got a chance, but by whinging that it was his divine right to be in the side. It isn’t, it wasn’t, it never will be for anyone. Maybe didn’t deserve to be in the squad, maybe didn’t deserve to be in the team - so Fergie got rid.
Ince - actually, Ince was still worth his place in the team. But he bought into his own hype, the famous “Guv’nor” image which he still likes to cultivate today. He stopped taking criticism, and started to see himself as bigger than the team. He could have looked ten yards to the side of him to see Keano. Set yourself up as a rival to Fergie? You’re gone, and so you should be. Be as arrogant as you like on the pitch, but off it you’re a member of a club and a team - that has been a consistent principle and is one that we should all support.
If you want examples of loyalty, look at Robson, McClair and Solskjaer. Robson was toxic after one too many managerial failures - Fergie took him back into the fold and got him a well-paid job as an ambassador. McClair gave nearly a decade to United, and is an integral part of the backroom staff. Solskjaer gave us his whole career, and will have a job for life. Micky Phelan, even, accepted his demise with grace and is a fixture behind the scenes.
Fergie has proved again and again that he knows when to say “thanks for the memories, but see you later”. He is the best in the business at that, without question. Blind loyalty is an appalling quality in a manager.
People change. Teams move on. Get over it.
August 1st, 2008 at 23:30
@Grognard: agree with you about needing cover at right wing, although Hargo played well on the right wing when called on
August 1st, 2008 at 23:48
@micheal: Because it is a team game and not an individual one. I can’t believe you don’t get that. No player, not Pele, not Maradona, Beckenbauer, Cruyff etc ever won a trophy by himself. So really, have some logic behind your point because we are talking about a team game.
And I’m glad I amuse you.
August 1st, 2008 at 23:50
@Red Diablo: Nothing. He was just seduced by the dark side of the force.
August 1st, 2008 at 23:52
@Red Diablo: You are getting all worked up over Ribery and for no reason. He’s going nowhere. Bayern are very pleased with him and he is loving it at the club and life in Munich as well. Unless something really drastic happens under Klinsmann, don’t expect him to want to leave that Utopia.
August 1st, 2008 at 23:55
@Penguin: I know it was sarcasm mare. I just replied with my form of dry wit by asking WHAT, not who is a Lee Martin. Somewhere in all that you must have taken me far too serious.
August 2nd, 2008 at 0:26
@Penguin: I’m not sure what you are going on about me contradicting myself. I praised Fergie in the way he takes command of a situation and never lets a player get the better of him. Fine great, but I also think by keeping Ronaldo here he is hurting the team even though he will win the battle of wills with Portuguese Dancing Muppet. Just because he is right to react that way and to show his power and strength does not mean it’s entirely positive for Manchester United. I see the pro’s and the cons in this mess. Yes we need to send a message to Real that we are not like other clubs and we will not be intimidated or coerced into acting against our best wishes. Fine, mission accomplished (I think). But now what? Now we have a disgruntled cunt who want s to be elsewhere and who has shown very little maturity or professionalism in the past two months. Is that what we want on our team. Do we really need his poisoned attitude infection other gullible and easily seduced young players that speak his language and share his cultural way of thinking? I don’t think so.
I have seen first hand what happens when you keep a bad influence around in a work environment and how bad his attitude can rub off on others. Ronaldo is not a machine who can turn off his wishes and dreams now that he is not going to get his way. He’s a human being (I think) who is going to be bitter, angry and very hurt over what he will see as a betrayal by our team for his five years of stellar service.
I have said all along that if it was only Real Madrid causing this problem and not Ronaldo as well, I would want Fergie to throw the book at them and really let them have it. But Ronaldo is part of this mess and his desires are pretty damned obvious right now. I look at it like this, if my wife doesn’t love me anymore and has met somebody else she desires more, am I supposed to tie her up and tell her she needs to abide by our marriage contract or am I supposed to let her go. Or better yet, do I destroy the person who has stolen he heart? It’s an interesting dilemma but there is only one correct answer despite what we all would like to see. The correct answer is you let he go because there is nothing worse than a marriage with no love and a person being held against their wishes. So sure Ronaldo has a contract and he has violated our trust and our faith in him by wanting to break that contract. Sure I am angry as Hell but do I say fuck no you can’t go? No, I fleece Real Madrid for more money than they want to spend and a player or two and I say thank you very much, have a nice fucking day.
Ronaldo is going to end up being a cancer to this team if we hang on to him, mark my words. Still, I do respect and admire Fergie standing up to him and Real Madrid but in the long term, that may end up being a mistake. And yet, by clearly stating to the Real’s of the world that we are bigger than you and you will not push us around, you are sending a message to the whole footballing community that from now on, trying to tap up players from United will not work. That’s all fine and dandy if we knew Fergie was going to be around for another two decades, but he is not. Will his successor have such a thick skin and stubborn streak? Somehow I doubt it. Therefore, selling Ronaldo is probably the best thing to do. Man is it ever a sorted and confusing soap opera with many ethical and philosophical questions to be answered and considered.
As for your argument about Beckham, RVN, Keane and Ince, I see your point but you completely missed mine. My point was that he was being a hypocrite by treating these players differently than Ronaldo, whose crime is far worse than theirs. I don’t really care if you think they were wrong in their actions because that is debatable. I for one have no problem with RVN or Becks but I disagreed with what Keane did on live tv. And i disagree that Beckhams form had deteriorated greatly. He had a few games where he was off a bit and Fergie used that against him to make a point. Beckham showed what he was made of coming off the bench in the CL home clash 2nd leg against Real to score two big goals for us which showed his commitment and pride. And RVN was just totally disrespected. He had a training ground feud with Ronaldo who is known for his selfish play and RVN is paid to score goals. If Ronaldo isn’t going to bother to get him the ball, then it makes RVN’s job pointless. Benching him for the Carling Cup final was a slap in his face considering the number of goals and dedication he had shown to the club up to that point. It was after that when his attitude totally went off the reservation. Fergie picks his favorites and he protects them like fine jewels but if you are one of those unlucky to not be on his favorites list, heaven help you. When the day comes you will get the boot, not matter how much you have given to the team. So I’m sorry but I won’t get over it. To be honest, I’m a little bitter and still angry over it because I detest unfairness and betrayal. Even if it comes from a man I love like Fergie. And make no mistake, I love him and respect him greatly. But that doesn’t mean I can’t be disappointed in him or question him. Hell my father got the same too. Why should Fergie get better treatment than my beloved father?
August 2nd, 2008 at 0:48
@Matthew: So hypothetically, if Ronaldo stays fit for most of the season, what will be the role of this “undertsudy” winger? Just sit on the bench and wait his turn? I really doubt you’ll find a player willing to do that in this age of football.
August 2nd, 2008 at 2:23
The Daily Mail are reporting that United have rebuffed an approach for Fletcher from Birmingham….. that’s an odd one. Fletch isn’t first team week in week out, but Birmingham? He’s better than that! Everton atleast!