Oct 03
The Debate on United’s First Eleven
It was interesting to hear Fergie make comparisons recently to the Treble-winning squad. He particularly alluded to having a pool of strikers who he could rotate through the season, drawing parallels with the Yorke, Cole, Solskjaer and Sheringham quartet. However, whilst the strength in depth of our squad is at least equal to the Treble boys (and probably superior), there is one major difference that makes other comparisons irrelevant:
We have no idea what our best team is.
Simple as that. And to me, that makes us vulnerable. When the going gets tough, it helps to have habits to fall back on, to know how your teammates and going to react and where they will position themselves, to have the belief that comes from having got through this before together. If we’re not careful, we’re going to lose that valuable ingredient. In 1999, there was no doubt at all what our best eleven was:
Schmeichel - Irwin, Stam, Johnsen, Neville - Giggs, Scholes, Keane, Beckham - Yorke, Cole.
No question in anyone’s mind. So to rotate a couple of players here and there was useful and practical. They fitted into the side amongst the core of 8 or 9 players from the first team - Blomqvist, Butt, Solskjaer, Sheringham, Phil Neville, Henning Berg and others all played strong supporting roles in this context.
Even last season, nine of the eleven names on the teamsheet were set in stone:
EVDS - Evra, Rio, Vidic, Brown - ??????, Carrick, ??????, Ronaldo - Rooney, Tevez
You could have had a debate about Anderson, Scholes or Hargreaves to play alongside Carrick, and between Giggs, Nani and Park for the left wing slot, but the rest was clear-cut.
Now this season. I would say, based on performances so far and assuming a fully fit squad, I think there are five names, six at most, who definitely form part of our best team:
?????? - Evra, Rio, Vidic, ??????- ??????, Carrick, ??????, Ronaldo - ??????, (Berbatov)
And that doesn’t even take into account that we don’t know our best formation - do we play 4-4-2, 4-3-2-1, 4-2-3-1, 4-1-2-2-1?
Why don’t we know?
So why is it such a mess? Well, the most recurring theme is the transition to the next generation. Across the team, there are players who are just a bit too old to be play their best all the time, and there are players who will be good but haven’t matured fully yet. Complicating matters even further, in most positions there is a solid but unspectacular third player.
GK: EVDS (fading legend); Kuczszak (solid middle-man); Foster (future superstar)
RB: Neville; Brown; Rafael
CM: Scholes; Hargreaves/Fletcher; Anderson
LM: Giggs; Park; Nani
The striker issue is different, and we’ll come onto that. But for these four positions, there is a tough balance to strike between experience, competence and potential. Filling the gaps with EVDS, Neville, Scholes and Giggs would leave you concerned about the energy levels of your team, particularly in the last third of the game. Use TK, Brown, Fletcher and Park, and you will get solid performances but rarely a match-winning performance. Opt for Foster, Rafael, Anderson and Nani and the thrills of watching young talent blossom will be tempered by heart-attacks as they make mistakes and learn some tough lessons in the heat of battle.
On the strikers, things have been stirred up the purchase of someone who is not comparable to anyone else in the squad. When Berba is fit and firing, he must surely play - and equally, there can surely only be space for one of Tevez and Rooney. Here the variables are different. Berba is the sort of player who will run hot and cold more emphatically than Rooney or Tevez, because he contributes little when he is not scoring or contributing to goals - how will Fergie react to a cold spell? Which of Rooney and Tevez will play best with him, or will it be the case that each partnership offers a subtly different skill set? Is there a way of accomodating all three in a different formation? The are questions to which nobody, not even Fergie, has the answer, so we must wait and see.
Outside factors
I can’t finish this article without playing this game. So what should our best team be? Assuming a fully fit and reasonably on form squad, what is our best team? Hmmm?
First things first - did you immediately start putting together a line-up in your head? Or did you mentally ask “what is the match”? If you’re in the latter group, you seem to be in line with Fergie’s current thinking, that a game away at Chelski requires a totally different team to a game at home to Bolton.
I’m not sure about this approach. I would prefer to play our best side, and say “here you go, do your worst, because we know this team is good enough to beat anyone”. It’s a slightly simplistic view, though, when you have a squad at your disposal that offers all sorts of shades of grey rather than forcing you to pick black or white.
Indeed, as the CL final showed, a creative team selection can really gain the initiative, and tailoring the complexion of your line-up to the occasion appears to be logical. But then, would you care to recall the away leg of the Barca semi? No, me neither - it can be taken too far.
Who would you pick?
For the sake of argument, I’m going to give you four line-ups. First, what I regard to be the best team we can select, assuming I had to pick a team for a game without knowing who the opposition were or where it was to be played. Second, home to a big four or major European team, assuming I accepted the principle of adjusting my team to suit the occasion. Third, away to a big team. And fourth, against lesser PL opposition.
Best team (blindfold)
EVDS - Evra, Vidic, Rio, Brown - Nani, Carrick, Anderson, Ronaldo - Rooney, Berbatov
EVDS just gets the nod over Foster for his experience, but a few impressive performances from Foster would change my mind fast. Neville looks too sluggish, Rafael to weak defensively. Nani gives us the attacking flavour that I think we should approach every game with. Anderson and Carrick have all the attributes between them to be a sensational partnership. Rooney links more naturally with Berba at present.
Home to a “big” team
EVDS - Evra, Vidic, Rio, Brown - Park, Hargreaves, Carrick, Ronaldo - Rooney, Berbatov
Park shores up one wing, making up for the fact that Ronaldo won’t track back - the central midfielders only have to cover one errant winger. Equally, Evra provides extra impetus behind Park going forward, whilst Park provides more cover for Evra’s over-enthusiasm going the other way. Hargreaves gives more mature and secure bite to our midfield, where Anderson can be a bit of a gamble.
Away to a “big” team
EVDS - Evra, Vidic, Rio, Brown - Hargreaves, Carrick, Anderson - Ronaldo, Rooney - Berbatov
Three in central midfield ensures we get a foothold in the game, with Anderson having licence to bomb on if the foothold turns into a more sustained advantage. Ronaldo and Rooney are more flexible, looking to start raids wherever there is space.
Lesser team
Foster - Evra, Vidic, Rio, Rafael - Nani, Carrick, Anderson, Ronaldo - Rooney Berbatov
Gives Foster and Rafael valuable experience. Rafael’s and Nani’s attacking prowess is more relevant against the large number of teams that set up with ten men behind the ball.
Obviously many of you will have alternative opinions, but that’s what the comments are for. Should we be adjusting for who are opposition are and where we are playing? And how would your four line-ups look?
Ed: Penguin, the author of this article, also blogs here.
Related items from Red Rants:Tags: Opinions/Columns
October 3rd, 2008 at 9:20
Good stuff mate.
October 3rd, 2008 at 9:56
Great article, I have to say! Interesting and a realy important point for us. What is our best team? Hm… Well, Im gonna but two teams up. One for home games against whichever opposition and one for away games.
Home:
Foster-Evra, Rio, Vidic, Rafael-Nani, Carrick, Anderson, Ronaldo-Rooney, Berbatov.
A solid shot stopper from what Ive seen from him, will be England nr 1 in 2 years time, a solid CB partnership, two fast full backs, two skillful wingers and what I think is our best midfield partnership. Carrick is a great passer and good defensivly, while Anderson can attack and turn up the speed in the game. Rooney and Berbatov looks like our best partnership up front so I will go for them.
Away:
VDS-Evra, Rio, Vidic, Brown-Ronaldo, Carrick, Anderson, Hargreaves-Rooney, Berbatov
Edwin hold experience and is important in games, that backline is our best possible and most known at the moment, Hargreaves is a good crosser and can track back when needed, Carrick and Anderson can work defensivly and play killer passes, the speed of Ronaldo and Anderson can counter and Rooney and Berbatov is again the best partnership up front.
October 3rd, 2008 at 10:05
hmm..good selection but i dont see anybody mentions tevez..on some harder matches, i would prefer him to berba as berbs hardly tracks back
October 3rd, 2008 at 10:07
Nice article, but what’s ur issue with Tevez? He’s our most consistent striker without a shadow of a doubt, and he scores crucial goals. He never has a bad game, never gives the ball away, tracks back to make crucial tackles…the guy’s a legend. I can’t see how Rooney can be considered to be any better than Tevez, to me they’re both as good as eachother. If anything, Tevez could be considered to be slightly better, just because he scores more goals than Rooney…isn’t that what £30m strikers are supposed to do these days? Berbatov is unproven at united…two mediocre goals against Aalborg and he’s a definate in ur starting lineup!
Apart from that though, I like what you’ve said, very good points made in ur article.
October 3rd, 2008 at 10:11
Great article Penguin, should stir mass-debating? er mm, Ok.
Themain problem @ the moment I see it is not the personel it is the constant changing of system, we all can put our first eleven ou and argue until the cows come home about is Carrick better than Scholes, Anseson better than Hargreaves.
The main issue is that are we playing 4-4-2, or 4-5-1 or 4-1-3-2 or 4-3-3. We have traditionally been a 4-4-2 side with wingers but Carlos came in and adopted a more cautious approach to our game. As fans we backlashed this and wanted a more attacking game and after various teething problems we found a happy medium.
But who really was picking the formation was it still Fergie or was it CQ? It is easy to say Fergie runs the club and would never allow it but CQ did have a strong influence on the team/players and the style we played. He famously told Fergie to play P Nev in CM against Arsenal and he was a revelation against Viera.
I personally think it is teething problems with finding a system which suits us with Berbatov in the side, and without CQ. But we do need to find it and find it soon, as Chelsea do look settled and strong this season.
October 3rd, 2008 at 10:57
Great article Penguin…Im sure its going to stir up alot of debate.
i personally agree with most of your article, and your team selections were clearly well thought out. i just have a few concerns
1) Tevez isnt mentioned in any of your starting 11’s. His performance last season and form this season deserves a starting place atleast 50% of the time. That however would lead to another problem… How to accomodate him?
Iv watched chelsea a few times this season and have generaly been impressed by the way they have played. I think that they could provide a solution to our tevez ‘problem’.
Rooney in my opinion is far more creative than tevez, while tevez has quiker feet, and a better ability to take on players with his skill. which is why i would play tevez out wide, in a joe cole role. Both joe and tevez are small, very skillfull, deceptively quick (tevez against zenit showed that), tevez has a great work rate and would tarck back to defend, and both have the ability to cut in and cause havoc in the box (plus tevez has got a wicked rigt foot). This could work in the PL and maybe at hoe in the CL
VDS-Brown-Rio-Vidic-Evra
Carrick-Andy
Ronaldo-rooney-tevez
Berba
I would maybe alternate between tevez and nani, depending ot whats required in the game.
2) Away in the CL i would maybe have tevez upfront instead of berba in your formation, purely because of the work rate required in these games.
Lets hope SAF gets it right
October 3rd, 2008 at 11:01
i’m not sure if anyone else realised but tevez was not in any of those teams! with his current contract expiring at the end of the season things may be looking down for him at the moment.
and nani is far too inconsistent. i was watching the aalborg match with great frustration at nani. i always used to question fergie when he used to drop nani for park or giggs but now i understand why. he is always taking useless shots and his final ball is terrible as his decision making. he needs to mature - and fast!
October 3rd, 2008 at 11:04
@Kingpin: Why do you believe we need work rate in the more sedate EPL game than the hustle and bussle or the Premiership, surely we need more guile in the Champions league to un luck European defenses?
Plus with regards to Tevez, if he doesn’t figure in many of peoples 1st teams is he really worth spending £30m on, surely not!
October 3rd, 2008 at 11:12
Just a question:
How about Evans, Manucho, Possebon, Tevez, O’shea, Fletcher, Scholes, Giggs, Neville, Kuszczak, Fabio da Silva, Welbeck, Gibson… am sure most of the above would get the nod to play against lesser teams and in less significant competitions.
Thats why i think suspensions and injuries are a blessing in disguise for both the fans and players- fringe players get a chance to feature in big/small games while we the fans get to see some players explode into the lime light….
GGMU!!!
October 3rd, 2008 at 11:19
personally i would prefer the starting line up of the champions league final because it gives us flexibility whilst we are in play we could play a 442 to a 433 to a 451 Hargreaves & Rooney’s versatility saw us dominate that first half and Tevez’s and Rooney’s awesome tracking back is why we won the double with 3 strikers last season, everyone worked hard and the rewards show!
October 3rd, 2008 at 11:22
Interestingly, there is only one sub (besides keeper) between your “Best Team” and “Lesser Team”. Rafael for Brown.
October 3rd, 2008 at 11:36
The main crux of the argument should be on the personel in midfield and the system in midfield.
Chelsea always play 3 in the centre, Lampard, Deco if not fit Ballack, Essien if not fit Mikel.
Lampard starts every game as does Terry, an when fit Drogba. That is a spine, we alter midfield from a 3 man midfield to a 2 depending on who we are playing. Surely that is wrong we should have a settled midfield? that is the engine room of the side, and especially as we paid, £18m for Carrick, £17m for Hargo and £18m for Anderson!!
October 3rd, 2008 at 11:38
brown should always get the node ahead of neville and rafael any time,,he’s solid and having played most games last season he of course got lots of neede experience and team understanding.,.us fickle fans were quick to dismiss him last season..berbatov rooney and tevez can always play in the same team, ther threat they possess,my God!
October 3rd, 2008 at 13:12
i also do feel that brown shld be ahead of those two..neville is past it, period. the only reason he’s still get selected is probably because of his history with man utd. rafael is definitely one for the future and shld be used against lesser teams in lesser competition (carling cup anyone?) y SAF choose to omit brown from the starting lineup is anybody’s guess. he is the type to excel provided that he is given the trust. Recent game proves that without prolong appearance in matches, he is bound to be rusty and made a lot of mistakes (awful passing n crosses).
October 3rd, 2008 at 13:42
hmmm interesting post
but where’s SCHOLES?!?! hes the brains of the midfied whenever he “plays”, united “plays”… he also offer much more in terms of experience compared to anderson & he pulls the strings in midfield btr than anderson
and why wont fergie consider tevez and rooney in the same team… Rmbr how well they combined last season to devastating effect
also think that fabio da silva shud be given a chance to prove himself
October 3rd, 2008 at 13:50
best team anytime
EVDS-rafael,rio,vida,evra-ronaldo,carrick,anderson, nani-rooney,berbatov
Subs- tevez(nani), hargreaves(berbatov), scholes(anderson)
October 3rd, 2008 at 14:57
scholes and fletcher sign on!!!
October 3rd, 2008 at 14:59
@Stephen: Agree completely about Tevez. The guy is not worth more than 20million, and that’s considering if he’s playing well. On current form, i’ll rate him 14million.
What’s glaringly obvious is that Tevez has struggled to develop a cohesive understanding with his team mates, and this can be due to his all action, i-have-to-touch-the-ball-at-least-seven-times-before-releasing-it style, despite being a very good player on his own as shown by his last season stats.
If united were to release him, I see him succeeding perhaps in Spain, where he would perhaps integrate better to the culture and the more technical game would suit him.
Any one of you guys picturing SAF spending 30m on keeping a playre who’s not even first choice? I, certainly not!
October 3rd, 2008 at 15:03
i under stand that a teams needs a solid backbone and regualr staring eleven . but i prefer us playing a side depending on the team we play against. tacticlally if Fergie gets everything right constantly it would be very hard to play against our team. another good thing is that we do not only hav depth in squad players but we have real quality players who are different and made for different football games
October 3rd, 2008 at 15:09
@Nico QB: “i-have-to-touch-the-ball-at-least-seven-times-before-releasing-it” style. Couldn’t agree more
But perhaps we should be thankful for his “i-am-a-pit-bull-who-shouldn’t-stop-running-and-chasing-everything-down” style too, eh?
October 3rd, 2008 at 15:17
Excellent article Penguin! Top-notch as always… are you a mathematician by any chance? You seem to love the statistics-permutations-combinations angle of things!
Well, I have a few doubts though. We’ve seen from last season that the Carrick-Scholes and Hargo-Ando partnerships peform best. Therefore is having Carrick-Ando in the “best” team the best idea? Wouldn’t any of the other two combos be better?
October 3rd, 2008 at 15:36
@Nico QB: In what way has tevez struggled to develop a cohesive understanding with his teammates?
Also, tevez has himself said that united suit his style of play better than argentina, whose style of football is the same as that played in spain.
October 3rd, 2008 at 15:44
@antsBoy: I am a little sceptic about Carrick being a shoe in for every game, is he reallya better player than Scholes who is not in any of Penguins teams surely not?
October 3rd, 2008 at 15:50
I know I’m probably going to catch some shit for even thinking of this, but what about Rooney taking over the role Scholes used to play? Partnering him with Carrick in the center of the park and having him play just behind Berbatov and Tevez? To me, he would fit in perfectly there. He has the work rate, the lungs, and the shot to play a AMF position, the only thing I see being a problem is the passing. Not that he cant pass, but he’s no where close to Scholes (but honestly who is?).
I would love to see a team that looks like this:
Foster - Evra, Vidic, Rio, Brown - Nani, Carrick, Rooney, Ronaldo - Tevez, Berbatov
That, for me, is the ultimate United squad using current players.
October 3rd, 2008 at 16:00
Any chances of us buying Kun Aguero?
That boy looks class…
October 3rd, 2008 at 16:24
the problem is the keeps’ foster is a saha with gloves(im not the original one who coined this phrase
) and pig will never be enough to fill big edwin’s boots.. i say sign an experienced gk, friedel maybe?… 
October 3rd, 2008 at 16:26
@AndyCR7: we do have a swarming pool of strikers now, maybe offload one of our strikers first..
October 3rd, 2008 at 16:32
train tevez to be a cam.. hypnotize nani to be like becks, smack roon to stay upfront, sack fergie if he still choose neville over wes.
October 3rd, 2008 at 16:34
@john freakin’ o’shea: Tevez, may be…
no… no… dont shoot me pls…
I would pay 30 million for Aguero instead of Tevej…
October 3rd, 2008 at 16:37
@john freakin’ o’shea:
thats too much to ask for…
October 3rd, 2008 at 16:39
@tevez: Compare Tevez with Rooney. Compare Tevez with Berba. Compare Tevez with Yorke, Cole, 20legend (who could all thread an intelligent pass)…
Now I’m not saying Tevez is a bad player, I think he’s an excellent player on his own. I admire his guts, never say die attitude, constant commitment when often others would have given up.
What I see as a flaw in his game is his inability to link intricately with the other forwards. He did it a few times at the beginning of last season, but he is getting more and more personal. More and more I tend to see Rooney giving him excellent balls, and not the other way round.
When was the last time you thought “What a great ball by Tevez to find XYZ!” Yeah, I thought so.
However, he cannot be compared with Van Nistelrooy, why, because RVN’s stupendous goals return mean that his lack of teamplay was not a problem.
In the end I wouldn’t bbe too flushed to see Carlos staying - but you have too admit that 30m is a bit, nay, make that way too steep for what he is actually offering.
And I’d love to be proved wrong!
October 3rd, 2008 at 16:48
@antsBoy: his “i-am-a-pit-bull-who-shouldn’t-stop-running-and-chasing-everything-down”
I am!
Only at the end of the day, does it bring tangible results?
The comparison with Berba is telling: Lord Vlad Berba the Impaler will not expend his hectolitres of precious blood to chase a lost cause. His brilliant mind (call it a footballling brain) will instead pick out occasions worthy of effort and most of the time create something dangerous, either for him or for his teammates!
October 3rd, 2008 at 17:04
The entire Tevez situation is a bug bear of mine, not him but why the fuck do we pay so much for players?
Anderson- £18m
Carrick- £18.6m
Nani- £17m
Berbatov- £30.75
Hargreaves- £17m
Rio- £30m
Rooney- Could be £29m
even Ronaldo £12.4m for an unknown 17 year old a lot of money!
I am not saying the players listed are poor and some have lived up to the billing, but at the time we all must think fuck me thats a lot of money. If Tevez develops into a first team regualar then Ok you can half justify the fee, but at the moment, £30m is far, far too much, and that is not saying he is a bad player, far from it, just expensive.
October 3rd, 2008 at 17:48
I thought we already had the Tevez debate…
If Carlos Tevez had red hair and was named Carl Terry not one person would question his price tag. One can argue who is slightly better between him and Rooney, but what you cant argue is there just isnt much between them in there respective worth.
ALl you Tevez haters, go back and watch last seasons higlights and tell me what we would have won without him?
October 3rd, 2008 at 17:52
@johnsom33: I hope that wasn’t at me.
October 3rd, 2008 at 17:58
Best Blog In Ages.
Also, i got a little misty eyed thinking of that ‘99 midfield foursome…
“Giggs, Scholes, Keane, Beckham”
Quality. All four of them were in their prime. Outstanding really.
As for you 4-best teams approach, i’d go along with them really. Although for the “lesser PL” team i’d substitute a Midfielder (or Defender) and play all four of our strikers, mainly because playing against 11 men behind the ball for 90 minutes is damn near impossible to break down unless you have the best attacking talents on display. But maybe that’s just my gung-ho nature coming through. Possibly.
Also, against lesser teams i’d love, like in the Carling Cup, to see more youngsters tried out, such as Fabio in for Evra (the guy plays every game unless he’s injured and he runs like a motherf**ker!) and Evans in for Ferdinand or Vidic (whoever is looking most tired really). It might be risky, but at home, against the worst teams in the division i don’t think we should worry, and give our youngsters the opportunity to experience a packed Old Trafford.
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:01
@Nico QB: I disagree. Tevez has a good footballing brain, although he’s not as intelligent as rooney or berbatov. He is still a clever player and has a better eye for a pass than cole, yorke or solskjaer ever did.
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:04
@tevez: No so sure about Yorke, he had fantatic vision, and not only for the ladies!
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:06
off topic, but…someone seems pissed off! link phew!
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:09
Sorry for all my bad spelling and puntuation today, been busy @ work!
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:09
@Stephen: I guess why Penguin has given Carrick his DUE place (arguably) is looking what what our team lacks when he is missing. Carrick’s role in our team is widely under-rated. Looking at it that way, you could say Carrick means more for our team right now than Scholes.
Ofcourse, I think Penguin should put up a big, bold disclaimer below the team lineups saying - TEAM SUBJECT TO CHANGE BASED ON PLAYER FORM.
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:11
@johnsom33: You can never double-guess history, can you?
And I’m not a Tevez hater. I thought he did well last season and continue to believe that his work ethic is examplary.
But still, just think about his price tag. Don’t you think another striker bought at the start of last season with a comparable price tag (I’m thinking along the lines of Berba or Huntelaar here, who at the time would have been even cheaper) wouldn’t have come up with goals and / or assists?
And just for you to know, I personally think Anderson’s fee is even more revolting!
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:12
tevez?
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:13
@antsBoy: What does Carrick give us that Scholes doesn’t bar probably 90mins and no yellow cards?
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:14
@AndyCR7: Thanks alot Andy! Actually Eid here in Pakistan was yesterday. But we Muslims celebrate three days of Eid. Thats why I couldn’t post since day before yesterday. Khair Mubarak to you which means Eid Mubarak to you as well. Alright so Shir-Kurma? Mate there is a kurta! Thats a dress(I bought two new ones) which we wear with a white shalwar! http://rapidshare.com/files/150349077/DSC00172.JPG.html here is a picture of me in a kurta and shalwar today on day 2 of eid. Anyway maybe what you are talking about is Sawaiyan! They are sweet vermicelli cooked and served in sweet milk. oh and Shiri Kurma! Thats a very tasty dish too. We celebrate Eid usually with a grand treat! Its at my Granddad’s. You know it is a Family reuniting for some as it is all my father’s cousins and everyone so it is really refreshing! But the best part is Eidi.This is money and gift that the youngest generation gets from all the elder generations. So it is like a christmas present but only that it is money in the highest form of generosity! and we can buy whatever we want with the money! Again thanks for wishing me Andy and Eddy as well!
:mrgreen: 
But then I being sixteen and the eldest child in my house. My smaller cousins and siblings looted me. But it seriously was fun. Especially that my papers of 3 GCSE start on OCT 13! 
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:15
@RedDevilEddy: Mate at 15 you are called in Urdu neither a Mard(Man)neither a Bacha(Boy). Youre a Badlta howa Kacha (An underwear increasing in size! )
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:16
@Stephen: No it wasnt at you, your point was well taken. United do pay over the odds for all our players. This is why I am pleased to see fergie buying youngsters like Possebon, Da Silvas, Petrucci, Macheda… then bringing them along. Fergies ability to adapt is why he has been relevant for so many years and IMO the greatest U.K. Manager.
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:18
@johnsom33: Sorry mate if you took that out of context, did not mean to be aggresive, I was trying to do two things at once and you know us guys can’t do that!!
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:20
@Nico QB: I see your point about 30 being too much. Im just saying you cant question Tevez price tag with out questioning Rooney’s.
And please stop bringing up Huntelaar, there is a reason clubs arent in a hurry to buy him. Huntelaar is nowhere near Berba’s class, I would have been furious if we had signed him.
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:20
@Stephen: A goal more during the course of the entire season?
But seriously, even though Scholes can still execute a peach of a pass, and unlock defences at ease, he doesn’t do it consistently enough these days. And he hasn’t got the legs anymore too. Looking at last season, we tend to score a lot more when Carrick plays…so I guess Mr. Michael doesn’t win hands down, but definitely deserves his place in our starting 11 when fit.
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:25
@Stephen: Yeah, suppose so, yorke could pick a pass.
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:26
@Nico QB: Agree totally man. I see a bit of Berba in myself when I play actually (although my friends call me a lazy feck), it’s all about 50% less physical and 50% more mental work.
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:31
@antsBoy: Scholes is a better passer than carrick, and carrick can be sloppy with his passing far more often than scholes.
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:40
@Stephen: True, true
:lol: 
And Cole’s creativity too was underrated. I remember that he also had great understanding with Giggs (I especially recall two successive one-twos a la fifa or pes whatever the fancy these days, call that a 1-2-3-4!).
If Giggs was black, people would have made a similar “brother” analogy with the Cole-Yorke one!
And one of the reasons our treble winning squad had a midfield four who averaged about 12 goals each (other than being on top of their game of course) was that the front two did a great job of linking play with them.
Notice how the fantastic four midfield scored less when Cole and Yorke were not playing. Its one of the reasons i think why Sheringham and Ole were behind them in the picking order.
Anyway, perhaps Tevez has a good footballing brain, but he’s certainly not using it nowadays. He nearly always goes for the shot.
In any case, knowing Rooney and how inconsistent he can be , I wouldnt bet on Carlitos not getting an extended run and soon finding form too!
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:41
Nice article Penguin. I think the reason for the multiple lineups and constant rotation is because that is the way the game has had to change in order to protect it’s players from burnout. There is far too many games played today and the travel has become greater and more frequent from country to country and sometimes even continent to continent. Because of the travel, longer international tournaments in the Summer and pre season promotional tours to far away exotic places and more and more games and cup competitions the average starting player today can play well over 60 games a season. That’s just too much with the kind of travel and schedule that is being kept for these teams. The only way to combat this is to have larger squads and reserves available to be used in a squad rotation system. This system never allows for your best eleven to play together very often but it ensures that the team remains fresher and in better health and form for the entire season.
Rafa Benitez goes a bit overboard in his squad rotation system but Fergie I feel gets it right. He has the depth in quality so he might as well use it. Players today also seem to have a lower pain threshold than their predecessors form 25 years ago and beyond. Are they wimps and girly men? Many are but the fact of the matter is the big money being tossed around today and the potential money lost by not going far enough in the Cl or other tourney’s makes it vital that teams protect players from further injury. Players won’t play through pain anymore. Also, each player in insured and for these policies to take hold, strict measures are in place to ensure that players are not used when injuries have the potential of getting worse.
Today A team does not want to face their insurance broker in a scenario where they worsened a player’s injury by letting him play through the initial damage. It could cost them millions if the player does major or irreparable damage to himself. This wasn’t an issue in the days of George Best, Bobby Charlton or even later with Bryan Robson and Joe Jordan. I remember many games where players played with severe enough injuries. Legs were wrapped because of groin or hamstring pulls but players were expected to play. This has never been more evident than in the sport of baseball. Today pitchers are shut down and operated on for injuries that 30 years ago were accepted and pitchers played through. Partial tears or cartilage damage was tolerated and players played as soon as the inflammation subsided. Quite often a player played through a stiff or dead arm and eventually many would regain their full form. Today they are placed on the 30 day or 60 Disabled List. No risks no chances are taken with payers injuries. Why? One word, INSURANCE. Big money as always is changing the game. Insurance has reared it’s ugly head in the sport and because of it’s bottom line which of course is to ensure itself profit, teams are no longer willing or able to risk players with mild to moderate injuries. 25 years ago Rooney’s ankle would be wrapped up and he would be given a pain killer and expected to play against Blackburn tomorrow. Somehow I doubt we will see him tomorrow. Carrick’s injury would have been dealt with differently and he would probably have played games hobbling a bit. Hargreaves would be on pain killers and an anti inflammatory be expected to play. Saha would have been expected to play also. Only super serious injuries like Eduardo or Scholesy would be looked at differently.
I was impressed a couple of weeks ago to see Joe Cole come out and play with his heavily wrapped due to stitches in the head. You don’t see that very often anymore. Ask yourself why back injuries seem to be more prevalent in todays sports than they were in the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s? It’s because they are better understood and and diagnosed today and because teams and physicians truly understand today the limitations placed on a player because of a bad back. Many have surgery to correct their problems. Most of them were given pain killers and told to rest 30 years ago. They were expected to play with the discomfort. My the time s have changed. Some of it for better and a lot of it for worse.
October 3rd, 2008 at 18:50
@Stephen: The reason we pay so much money is our success comes up to bite us. And an expectation of such success by both the team and it’s supporters is that the success must continue perpetually. Therefore other teams see that pressure and desperation and hike their prices up for players. It’s that simple. We are a victim of our own success. Having said that we have paid for or are willing to pay far more than some players are worth. That just makes United bad judges of talent.
With all due to players like Tevez, Carrick, Hargo, Berbatov, Anderson and Nani, we have paid well over their value. The problem of course is that had we not bought those players, we would have bought other players who were overpriced instead. It’s a lose lose scenario. There are ways to do better business however. With all due respect to Berbatov, I think a smarter decision would have been to buy Huntelaar for 20 million and then used the extra 12 million to buy a winger or central attacking midfielder like Marin or Sanchez etc. Still, that’s just me thinking out loud. United’s success has put them in a very precarious position. And with the economic money crunch that has just hit, I think the Glazer’s purse strings may have got a whole lot tighter.
October 3rd, 2008 at 20:09
Firstly, Stephen, the reason i would have tevez ahead of berba in tough away games in the CL is because of the “itallian” tactics we seem to use. Our game plan was to keep a clean sheet with everyone, bar ronaldo, behind the ball working hard to keep a clean sheet and hoping to nick a goal on the break. Ronaldo, like berba, is not a worker. Having 2 attakers players not willing to do the dirty work (like roovez) would compromise our game plan. A game plan that played a huge part in winning the CL.
Secondly… im astonished at the tevez bashing going on here.i agree with johnsom33. If tevez was a brit, we would be singing his praises. He and rooney are very similar, but where rooney is more creative, tevez is more skilfull, and imo generally a better finisher. Most importantly, they are both extremely hard working and play for united, for the team, and i dont think you can have too many hard working,skillfull team players in a team.
I for one would happily spend 30mill on him as i think he represents the modern Manchester United…Attacking, skillfull, hard working, selfless, with the ability to single handedly turn a game. Not too many latin players would show their affection to an english club the way carlitos did by wearing a united shirt to a press confrence long before he came to the uk. The ronaldos and cantonas of this world are what make united great, but without players like rooney and tevez there wouldnt be much of a united. Tevez is still very young, and i think he and rooney could form the basis for a sustained period of success (the way we hoped ronaldo and rooney would up until the summer) and that is why his price is so high. I also think his prce is closer to 20mill as i remember reading reports at the begining of last season that said we were “renting’ him for 2 years for 5mil a season with the option to buy at the end of the agreement. So in theory we have paid 10mill fo him already. Why let him get away for 20mill…
I dont buy into the whole “tevez cant link up with the rest of our team, and that he does not have great vision” His team play is what formed the basis of what has got him to where he is today. His spell at west ham (an example is his goal against us) and last season illustrate that. I think the form of tevez has dipped abit since pre season, and he does seem abit more selfish on the ball now, but i think thats more because of circumstance.
The begining of last season started pretty much the asme at this, with us struggling for form and goals. Countless oppotunities were wasted until ronaldo took it upon himself to be selfish and have a few attempts on goal, which he got in and his confidence grew and grew which helped the goals to keep coming, and the rest is history. I think tevez was merely trying to do the same this season. taking the responsibility upon himself to carry united without ronaldo and a out of form rooney. Ufortunately for him and us it hasnt worked the way it did for ronaldo. i think once he plays with berba more, and adjusts to a slightly new system, he will settle down and play his natural game.
Form is temporary, class is pemanent… Tevez is pure class
October 3rd, 2008 at 20:33
@Grognard: True about the Huntelaar thing Grog. But still with all due respect no one can deny that Berbatov has that experience which Huntelaar would lack specially in the EPL.
October 3rd, 2008 at 21:08
@Grognard: we havent paid for tevez, rooney we bought for way to much, and buying huntelaar for 20 million over berbatov for 30 million is complete madness! why not buy the proven, prolific striker that will be far less a gamble, then buying a striker from the dutch league who has never played in the premier league. Especially with the likes of alves and kuyt being prolific in the dutch league, and complete flops in the our league. berbatov is a far smarter buy.
October 3rd, 2008 at 21:27
@dan(u-ol): Umm! Alright about Kuyt and alves! But Huntelaar is the same mold as RVN. So calling him a would be flop would be going a way too far!
October 3rd, 2008 at 21:34
Saying that Tevez is not as good as Rooney in teamplay does not mean that I do not appreciate the guy and his contribution to our game.
Everybody knows that Vidic is a poor passer of the ball, likewise Berba can switch off and seem languid, I say to each his own.
Its quite normal that some players have certain attributes that others don’t.
October 3rd, 2008 at 21:40
@Red Diablo: alves is in the same mold, as was kezmam. Honestly, RVN and to an extent babel(even though he’s a winger) are really the only dutch men to be successful in england.
October 3rd, 2008 at 21:43
@Nico QB: But Vidic is a wonderful Extra Long Range Crosser from what i have observed.
October 3rd, 2008 at 21:44
I love Tevez, I really do, but for £30 million pound we could probably get Huntelaar, Benzema or Kun Aguero.
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:05
@Traverse: sorry to burst your burst your bubble, but 30 million will only get you the left boot of benzema, same with the kun, we are looking at £40mil+ if we wanted any of them.
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:18
@Kingpin: well said.
And terrific post from Penguin.
I wish Foster could stay healthy because I would love him to push evs for a starting job. Ummm Brown over Gary every day of the week for me.
And I dont understand this obsession with price tags. Who gives a fuck if they cost ten billion or if they come free through the ranks as long as they perform when the whistle blows. None of us are the ones paying the price tag so why worry about it? And as Grognard said, we as United will always always always pay over the odds for a player, its an unwritten rule that no other side wants to be seen as getting done by us so they can save face to their fans, they know their players, for the most part would rather play in a united shirt than their side, so they only way they can stick it to us is in the price tag. Fuck it. Pay the money and then win trophies so we can do it all again the next time a player is wanted.
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:22
As for the lineups, I dont see what Berba has done to be guaranteed a starting job for every situation. I really dont. And please GOD dont come on here and tell me its because I dont see what he brings to the table, or I dont recognize his quality. I cant fucking stand the arrogance and pompous attitude of some of the people on here who think just because they post shit on here 200 times a week they are football geniuses.
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:25
@Drew Vader: For one, we just paid 30 million for him. Surely Fergie would be looking to play him more often at least for the moment.
And if you can’t stand them, then you do know you have other options, don’t you? After all this is the world wide web, and RR isn’t the only Manchester United fan site.
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:33
Dan,
To avoid redundancy I removed your comment because I conveyed what needed to be conveyed. Restraint is not your strength now is it?
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:34
@Red Ranter:
but really, its really frustrating not being able to say what i really want to say to some people… i have to do it as politely as possible, and well, im just not polite hehe.
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:42
@Red Ranter: With all respect for the site and you for running it, does this mean price tag is what should determine who starts? Berba costs 30, as did Wayne, and tevez is rumored to eventually cost around the same, while Ronaldo was only 17 million. So, does that mean we put Ronaldo on the bench?
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:45
@Red Diablo: The experience thing is kind of overrated. It’s not like Huntelaar is 16. He has played for Ajax who historically has a very strong European pedigree and he has played for the Dutch national team and has scored a goal a game for them. It’s like Obama vs McCain. Obama hasn’t got the same experience but he has the energy, youth and new approach which sometimes means more than McCain’s or better yet, Gary Neville’s old legs and experience. Berbatov is great but Huntelaar would be great for us too. Plus we would have more money to burn had we gone with the hunter.
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:46
@Drew Vader: ronaldo was 12 million… rooney was 20-25 million with add-ons. berbatov is probably 27million with add-ons.
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:47
@Drew Vader: Football Geniuses
.
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:47
@dan(u-ol): We haven’t paid for Tevez yet but the money that’s being talked about in securing him is too much in my opinion. And I’m not going to get into it with you over Huntelaar. You are welcome to your opinion which I completely disagree with. Lets leave it at that mate.
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:48
@Red Diablo: Well said. Huntelaar is as close to RVN as it gets. He may even be potentially better than him.
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:49
@Grognard: we wont see eye to eye on this at all hehe, i really think that he would be a flop here.
i mean, yea RVN was great, but so was sheva, and sheva came from a much, much better league then the dutch one, and look what happened to him.
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:49
And man…I stand by what I said. And I come to this site because I like to read about United and I like reading about the team. But you have to admit some people think their opinions are more right than others. And they act their ability to analyze tactical decisions rivals that of Mourinho. But none of us teach footballing seminars. I’m highly confident none of us have written a book on football tactics. We’re all just nerds, including me, who probably, like me, weren’t very good at actually playing football so we became huge fans. Thats it.
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:50
@dan(u-ol): That’s your opinion and it’s in the minority. Ask most experts about Huntelaar and they all think he is great. You just have an unbearable hatred and bias towards the Dutch league and you don’t even realize how many world class players have come out of there. You only focus on the few that have been failures. That’s very close minded and unfair of you.
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:53
And I just get frustrated when I read people’s position on why Berba should be playing as “some of you just dont see what he brings and dont recognize his quality” To me, that just smacks of arrogance and it bothers me, thats all.
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:54
@Drew Vader: He has one that position based on his past pedigree, reputation and the fact he has cost the team a mint. He will have to play himself out of the spot rather than have to play himself into it. Deal with it. He’s not Welbeck or Manucho. He’s a world class player who is a proven entity. I honestly do not see where this debate is coming from but it makes no sense. He is an out and out striker and that is something we have been looking for for agas. And you want him to sit down. Get real mate.
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:54
sorry, i didnt see you comment there.
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:56
@dan(u-ol): There is nothing wrong with being polite Dan. You show more of yourself and your intelligence by trying to argue your point in a friendly and articulate manner. There is no need for rudeness or anger in order to make your point. You are better than that mate. I know your frustration but you need to be civil, even if it kills you.
October 3rd, 2008 at 22:56
@Drew Vader: If you generalize a cross section of people in any community you will get morons, intelligent people, the average minded and the pompous. So what? We are all different people, and as long as we don’t attack a fellow commenter in