Aug 12
The Tactics Board – 4-4-2 Preview for MUFC in 2012
This has been the standard formation in England for several decades. This formation blasted onto the scene in England with Alf Ramsey’s 1966 England team. The 4-4-2 became the mainstay for English football for 40 years, with most teams playing this formation to the exclusion of almost every other formation. For the next 40 years, almost every team that won the league title in England used a 4-4-2. This formation also caught on in much of Europe, but it fell out of favor in Europe in the early 2000s. Most European teams started switching to a 4-3-3, or eventually a 4-2-3-1, but the 4-4-2 remained dominant in English football.
Positions & Skills-
Defensive Line-
This formation’s back-line is similar to the back-line of many other formations that use a flat back 4. It consists of 2 center-backs, who sit deep and are completely devoted to defense with no real attacking assignments. The center-backs need great stamina, the ability to organize the defensive line, and great defensive skills. There are 2 fullbacks, one on each side of the center-backs, and they are responsible for defending the area wide of the center-backs. But, unlike the center-backs, they also have attacking tasks. When the team has prolonged periods of possession, the fullbacks are tasked with getting forward to support the wingers, helping to control possession and move the ball laterally, while also making overlapping runs past the wingers to overload the opposing defense.
Midfielders-
The midfield is anchored by 2 box-to-box (B2B) midfielders in the middle, whose jobs range from shielding and defending in front of the center-back pairing to getting forward on the attack to provide late runs into the penalty area. Their responsibilities are split 50/50 between attacking and defending. Most teams that use the 4-4-2 have matched a good passing central midfielder with a more physical ball-winning central midfielder. The tackler is responsible for winning the ball back and having more of a defensive focus while the passing central midfielder takes more responsibility for contributing to the offensive build-up. However, unlike other formations, both of these central midfielders are responsible for putting in good effort and work on both sides of the ball. The central midfielders need to have tactical intelligence, to help organize the teams attacking phase. They need to be strong and confident with the ball, able to make short passes to move the ball laterally to the wingers and ahead to the two strikers. They must also be defensively proficient, able to deal with strong midfielders and not afraid to put in a strong tackle to break up a building attack. They also need to be positionally proficient, which tends to lead to a high number of interceptions. The central midfielders are also often responsible for organize the defensive pressing.
On each side of the center midfielders are 2 traditional wingers, both of whom have the offensive objectives of providing attacking width and accurate crosses into the box. They get forward down the touchline to run at the oppositions fullbacks, meaning they must have good pace, acceleration, decent dribbling ability and the confidence to run at the fullbacks. They should also have good crossing ability, able to put in strong and accurate crosses into the box from near the byline, for the 2 forwards to attack. Defensively, their job is to quickly track back and assist the fullbacks in dealing with the opponent’s wingers; they also are responsible for keeping an eye on the opponent’s fullbacks when they try to get forward.
Forwards-
Cole & Yorke - Pefect Strike Partners
Unlike most current formations which depend on a lone striker, the 4-4-2 has 2 strikers leading the line. Often, a 4-4-2 is built on a great striker partnership, such as Dwight Yorke and Andrew Cole. But there are several different options for the 2 strikers. Some teams play with a tall target man, playing besides a smaller, agile striker. Other teams will play with one striker that is constantly trying to get behind the defensive line while the other striker will play deeper. The 2 strikers are responsible for converting the team’s possession into goals. Often, one of the strikers needs to be a good header of the ball who can get on the end of the crosses that the wingers will put into the box. Additionally, one of them needs to be good with the ball at his feet, able to create spaces and a decent shooter from distance. On defense, the 2 strikers need to pressure the opposition’s defensive line when they have the ball. The strikers need to ensure that the opponent’s center-backs don’t have too much time on the ball, preventing any dangerous passes from the opponent’s back line.
4-4-2 Tactics & Strategy-
There are certain tactical requirements necessary for 4-4-2 to function well. One key to the 4-4-2 is to ensure the space between the backline and the front line stays short, often within 30-40 yards. This restricts the space between the lines for the opposition to operate in. While playing close together, it makes it easier for the defense to regain possession. The short space also allows the team to transition quickly to the attack, and makes short passes easier.
4-4-2 on the Attack
When playing against a team with a back line of 4, the 2 strikers will line up against 2 center-backs. This 2v2 means that the defense has no back-up if one of the center-backs makes a mistake. Most formations with a lone striker will allow the defense to always have a free man in the back-line to cover any players that get away from their marker.
This formation has good width, with the wingers and fullbacks used to stretch the opposing defense from touchline to touchline. When the fullbacks come forward to assist the wingers, you get chances for overload (2v1) chances out wide. The central midfielders often get forward to contribute on the attack. One of the central midfielders will often stay deep, while the other will often make late runs into the box in hopes of getting through unmarked. These late runs into the box can be dangerous goal scoring opportunities.
4-4-2 defending
Defensively, the main component of this formation is two banks of 4 defenders. This means that the team will often have 8 outfield players in the final third of the pitch, leaving little open space for the opposition to operate in. The backline will consist of the center-backs and the fullbacks, with all 4 often standing inside their own penalty area. The center-backs are responsible for zonal marking the area in front of the net, often covering the opponent’s strikers. The full-backs mark the areas out wide of the center-backs, often covering the opponent’s wide players. The second bank of 4 will be the 2 central midfielders and both wingers. The wingers often drop back to assist the fullbacks in dealing with the oppositions wide players. They also will cover the opposition’s fullbacks if they come forward. The central midfielders act as a screen in front of their own center-backs, trying to shut down the space between the lines. The two strikers are needed to pressure the opposition’s defensive line when they have the ball, pressing them to hurry their passes.
Player Pairing in the middle
A strategic plus with this formation is the rigid pairing in the “spine” of the formation, with the players supporting each other. The center-backs are paired together, supporting each other. Ahead of the center-backs, the central midfielders are paired together. They support each other, but also support the center-backs behind them and the strikers who are paired ahead of them. Defensively, this means that should a player have problems they will have somebody nearby to assist him to shut down the threat. Offensively, there is always a passing option close by, to go with other passing options further afield.
For all the advantages that the 4-4-2 can afford your team, there are several problems that can arise from it. When trying to control possession, there are some problems that this formation can cause. One of the main problems is that the three separate lines will often play straight across, and this makes it difficult to form the passing triangles that are needed to control possession and beat a compact defense. This formation can work well against a team defending deep, that is willing to concede possession, but against a team that is pressing high up the field, you will struggle to control possession.
Another major problem can happen if the lines start to get too far apart. If the distance between the back and front line get more than 40 yards, gaps and spaces will start to open up between the lines. Defensively, with 3 lines fairly straight across, when gaps open between the lines there are no defenders to cover the space. That leads to attackers in dangerous positions with no defender nearby to pick them up. Offensively, this formation works well to stretch a defense out laterally, but the need for the three lines to stay close together means that it doesn’t work well to stretch out a defense length-wise.
However, the biggest problem is when confronting an opponent who plays a formation with 3 central midfielders, such as 4-2-3-1 or 4-5-1. The opponent will have 3 players in the central midfield, against 2 in this formation. This will cause problems on offense and defense. With 3 central midfielders against 2, the opposition will have no problem shutting down attacks through the middle of the pitch due to an extra man in that area. After regaining possession, they have an easier time controlling possession with that extra man. The only solution to this problem is to pull one of the strikers back to help in the midfield, but this pulls him away from the goal and reduces his effectiveness.
4-4-2 Advantages & Disadvantages-
Advantage-
+Defensively, each player often has a nearby player helping in their assignment
+Short distance between the back-line and the front line leaves little space for the opposition to operate in.
+The short distance makes it easy to regain possession
+Frequent short passes are easy
+2 Strikers makes quick counter-attacks easier
+Often 2 strikers against 2 center-backs in the penalty area.
+Attacking width and quality crossing chances
Disadvantages-
+The 3 lines often line up straight, making it difficult to form passing triangles.
+With 2 central midfielders, it’s easy to get overwhelmed in the central midfield.
+If the lines get too spread out, it’s easy for the opponent to operate between the lines.
+Easy to get caught on the counter attack when fullbacks press forward.
The 4-4-2 and Manchester United-
Manchester United plays the 4-4-2 slightly different than most teams. United’s best strike partnership in this formation is to pair Wayne Rooney with Javier ‘Chicharito’ Hernandez. Rooney is able to combine his strength, creativity, and close control with Chicharito’s pace, aerial ability and excellent movement off the ball. Chicharito is a great option to play alongside Wayne Rooney, but he isn’t the only option. Danny Welbeck functions well in this formation, but for different reasons. He is dangerous on the ball, and he will drop deep at times to get time on the ball and move at defenders. While he doesn’t have the speed of Chicharito, his movement on, and off, the ball make him hard for defenses to cover, as evident repeatedly last season and at Euro 2012. Another option is Dimitar Berbatov. He played well alongside Rooney in this formation in 2009/2010, but his play style is too similar to Wayne Rooney now to allow them to play together well in this formation.
Manchester United 4-4-2 Lineup
United has the kind of quality wingers necessary to succeed in a 4-4-2. The best option on the right wing would be Antonio Valencia, who plays the type of wingers that we’ve seen for the last 40 years. He was the Red Devil’s Player of the Season last year, after scoring 6 goals and 14 assists in 37 appearances. The best option on the left wing would be Nani, who has the necessary speed and crossing skills. He can also attack into the box, instead of just staying out near the touchline. He can cut inside, and link-up with the two strikers inside the box. Another option on the wing is Ashley Young. He has the same type of attacking skills in the box that Nani has, but his pace and crossing skills aren’t as sharp as Nani, which means that he struggles when he stays out near the touchline. Additionally, both Nani and Ashley Young can play on the right wing. When wingers like Nani and Ashley Young cut inside to attack into the box, it is left up to the full-backs to get forward and provide the width for the attack.
In the central midfield, Manchester United doesn’t have the type of midfielder usually required in a 4-4-2. Most teams prefer to link a passing midfielder with a tough ball-winning midfielder, but the Red Devils have a problem. United has passing midfielders, but are short on the type of physical ball-winning midfielders that they are normally paired with.
Due to this lack of physical box-to-box midfielders, United’s best option in 2011/2012 in the central midfield was to play two passing midfielders together. Michael Carrick and Paul Scholes played well together as deep-lying playmakers, but this was mostly in a 4-4-1-1 instead of a 4-4-2. They are effective sitting deep, controlling possession, but they are slow to make runs into the box and this often leaves a gap in the middle of the pitch between the central midfielders and the strikers, which will often stall out an attack. In addition, playing two passers in the central midfielders leaves the midfield vulnerable on defense, as Manchester City showed last year, when Scholes and Carrick struggled to deal with the power and strength of Yaya Toure.
Michael Carrick and Paul Scholes both function best as a deep lying playmaker, but they need somebody to make more attacking runs forward to link-up with the 2 strikers. There is an option to play a more attacking midfielder alongside Carrick or Scholes, such as Kagawa, but then you leave the central midfield too weak defensively.
The best option this season is to play Michael Carrick, or Paul Scholes, alongside Phil Jones. In December of last season, Fergie played Phil Jones in the central midfield alongside Michael Carrick (before Scholes returned from retirement), and this partnership worked well in most of the games. Jones occasionally gets too aggressive with his forward runs, but his engine, work rate, and physicality is needed in this formation. Aside from strong forward runs, he also provides solid defense in the central midfield to help shield the center-backs.
There are other choices in the central midfield aside from Scholes and Carrick. The other passing central midfielder the Red Devils have is Tom Cleverley. There are also some good passing young midfielders who could make an impact this year, such as Davide Petrucci and Nick Powell. Powell played as an attacking midfielder for Crewe Alexandra, but Fergie has used him in a deeper position in the summer tour and he played well. The only ball-winning midfielders currently on the roster for Manchester United is Darren Fletcher, who is still dealing with an illness that caused him to miss over half of last season, Ryan Tunnicliffe, a 19-year old Academy product who spent last season with Championship side Peterborough United, and Anderson, who was acquired as an attacking midfield but played well at the start of last season as the physical midfielder alongside Tom Cleverley.
Phil Jones
The central midfield is an issue in this formation, especially if Fergie refuses to play Phil Jones in the central midfield. If he instead chooses to use him as a right-back or centerback, the central midfield in the 4-4-2 will struggle. Another option is to play Anderson alongside the passer. His attacking instincts are stronger than Phil Jones, but his defense isn’t as strong and he struggles with injuries. Unfortunately, this is an imperfect option. Right now, it seems that United just doesn’t have the right type of midfielders for the middle of the pitch in a 4-4-2.
Manchester United’s back line plays fairly standard to how most teams play a 4-4-2. The main difference is at the left-back position. When the left-winger cuts inside and plays into the box, the left-back is relied on to get forward and stretch the opposing defense and provide crosses into the box. Unfortunately, Patrice Evra seems to have lost some of his pace in the past couple years and having him make frequent attacking runs risks leaving a vulnerable gap behind him on which the opposition can play into during a quick counter-attack. Fergie seems to be looking for another left-back, but the only other options currently available are Tyler Blackett, an 18-year old full-back who went on the summer tour, and Robbie Brady, an Irish U-21 left winger who has played at left back on loan last season and in the summer tour. The job at right-back seems to be Rafael da Silva’s to lose, but Smalling and Jones are other quality options at full-back.
Conclusion-
Sir Alex Ferguson has been a big fan of the 4-4-2 and has used it for most of his managing career, and it has brought United considerable success. With the quality strikers that Manchester United has, this formation allows Sir Alex Ferguson to get a pair of them on the field at the same time. Instead of playing Wayne Rooney as a lone striker, this formation allows him to play Rooney alongside Danny Welbeck or Javier Hernandez. Manchester United also has several quality wingers that operate well in a 4-4-2. Antonio Valencia is a prototypical winger, while Nani and Ashley Young also have the skills and abilities to function well out wide in a 4-4-2.
Unfortunately, there are 2 positions for this formation that Manchester United has problems filling. The main position is the central midfielders. Currently, most of Manchester United’s midfielders are attacking midfielders (Shinji Kagawa, Ryan Giggs). These players are great on the attack, but they struggle defensively.
What United needs is a true physical box-to-box midfielder; A player who can put in strong defensive work, and help protect the passing central midfielder (Scholes, Carrick, Cleverley). But this player can’t just be a defensive midfielder. This player must make strong offensive contributions. Physical runs forward, the ability to play short passes on the edge of the box and long-range shots are still necessary skills for the midfielder. Currently, United’s best options are Darren Fletcher, who missed a good part of last season and still hasn’t returned to game form, and Phil Jones, a player whose primary position is center-back.
In addition to central midfielders, the other weak spot is at full-back. When the full-backs get forward on the attack, they leave a gap behind them that the opposition can easily attack into. With the central midfielders assisting in the attack, there is nobody to provide cover for the fullbacks when the opposing team wins the ball. The full-backs need to have great stamina, and be quick to recover when the ball is turned over. Unfortunately, Patrice Evra doesn’t have the pace and stamina he had a few years ago and he’s been caught out of position several times. Rafael has the pace and stamina, but his frequent dangerous forward runs often leave a troublesome gap to protect.
Manchester United has the strikers and wingers to excel in this formation, but their central midfield weakness makes this an unlikely formation to use. Ryan Giggs and Shinji Kagawa would struggle to play well as central midfielders in a 4-4-2. The main problem this formation deals the Red Devils is being out numbered in the central midfield. Most teams now play with 3 players in the central midfield, and it’s impossible for United to shut them down with only 2 players, especially with the lack of physical midfielders.
I suspect that Sir Alex Ferguson will still use this formation, but I would expect it will be limited to league games against teams at the bottom of the table or league cup games. This formation, and the weaknesses it carries with it, will become less important for the Red Devils as the game continues to change.
By RangeRooney Follow @RangeRooney
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Tags: Classic Posts · Manchester United · Tactics & Analysis · Tactics Board
The_Philosopher (488)
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4-4-2 is outdated…. extremely outdated.
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Phil Jones is absolutely useless in midfield. He can do a job if necessary just as O’Shea used to. But lets not kid ourselves that just because he can run up and down a pitch and make a few tackles it makes him the future of our midfield. I’d prefer him as a right back.
We’ve sorted out our attack. We have good wingers attacking midfielders and forwards. So the logical thing to do would be to take the £25 million we clearly have available and buy a solid central midfielder who is a good all rounder and has better mobility than Carrick but also capable of keeping possession. Moutinho, Javi Martinez, Tiote, Sahin would all seem to fit the bill.
Everyone\\\\\\\'s talking about this one! - Join the debate.... Like or Dislke:
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i think we might mainly be playing 4-3-3 this season, upfront will be nani – rooney – valencia, mid will be carrick – kagawa – cleverly/scholes, defence evra – vidic – ferdinand – jones. de gea in goal. this could then easily switch to 4-4-2 by simply subbing a midfielder or either nani/valencia depending on the situation. We are tending to model our team on the Spanish national team I feel !
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No club or country will win another European cup with a 4-4-2 formation. A neandarthal system used only by our incompetent technical staff.
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I think you are wrong, he will move to 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-2-1.
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Rodwell for 12MM !!??? WTF Fergie!
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I said it yesterday and i say it again…. 4-4-2 is outdated. The game plan in this article will not work on a consistent basis. Time to utilize that AMF role.
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I was watching the premier league years 07/08 and God did we have some team. Even our jersey was top class
I am still hurting over the tevez affair. He was absolutely immense and I am convinced he would of ended up a club legend.
However fergie made the mistake of utilizing a lethargic berbatov into our team over the energetic bulldog tevez
People will say he was a mercenary but I have to disagree.
He got fucked about by fergie after a fabulous first season and he was backed into a corner.
The rest is history……..
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@ash is the man: can. of. worms.
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I see people calling Nani inconsistent. Someone posted on Redcafe
So true! Sort out the contract already…
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Yeah I feel bad about the whole Tevez affair. Although I have heard a rumour that we weren’t keen on the permanent deal because Tevez had said a number of times that he planned to go back to South America after a few years which would limit his resale value. Of course the same consideration didn’t enter into our mind as we let Berbatov rot on the bench rather than cash in last summer. And now we are planning a £20 million outlay on 29 year old Van Persie.
Bottomline we’d have saved ourselves a lot of strife if we’d stuck with Tevez and invested our transfer funds in the midfield and kept the faith in the 4-3-3 formation that worked so well 2007/8 with Nani taking over Ronaldo’s mantle.
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@colver: the story was that the contract was supposed to be 20something and when it came time to do the paperwork his agent Kia changed it and it was bc citeh wer offering 40something… but its all in the past. He and his agent got mega rich…
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Nice write up. As stated the standard 4-4-2 isn’t really the best given our midfield, central midfield, isn’t the best. might work against lower teams with less European experience but other than that it is an outdated system. of course formation alone doesn’t define tactics as football manager has taught me roles assigned to players can make any system alter shape and make it fluid but the standard 4-4-2 is quite rigid
I for one would prefer a 4-2-3-1 that overloads midfield, somewhat easing defensive duties expected from midfield, as well as let the likes of Kagawa to play in their natural position. it can switch to 4-4-1-1 if fullbacks need cover and Rooney is also accustomed to playing in the hole and if given the trequarista role on his day he can absolutely massacre defenders with Valencia/young/ nani tearing down the flanks or cutting inside
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@Nelson: It simple really, we play 442 cos its easier to build a large squad around it. I think Arsenal enjoys as many injuries as we do in a season but they struggle more cos of their squad imbalance. We won the CL playing 442 with two deep lying playmakers so its not completely unforeseeable for us to do so again since we have been saying 442 is outdated since the 90s.
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@RMJ: I though it was an asymmetric formation with jargon anchoring the mid rather than a flat 4-4-2….. anyway it is obvious we will use multiple formations and I hope whatever the Gaffer implements is successful and brings back the days of blizk Footy we played not some stale things, square pegs and a display of tactical incompetence that we have seen over the past two seasons e.g champions league tactics of last season
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@Nelson: hargo not *jargon.
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What sort of sham tranfer biz is SAF trying to get done during these warmup matches…actually no one new has been signed…doesn’t players like mathew debuchy, greg van der wiel, yann m’villa are not worthy enough to be considered
..
Trying to get players where only money plays part are never going to come to Man United
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@Vignesh: Its just going to make us look even more of a joke in the transfer market when we miss out on rvp, after already publically missing out on hazard and lucas.
Not to mention nasri and sneijder last season, ozil and villa the year before etc.
See the pattern? All players who would have come with a hefty price tag, all of whom would have wanted top tier wages (in sneijders case probably level with rooney), all of whom were always going to be tricky negotiations to complete due to agents, players greed, prefering another club to us etc.
Yet apparently these were all players we desperately wanted, who we really pushed the boat out for, but unfortunately missed out on for one reason or another. Hmm yeah right.
Save for berbatov who was the last £30m player weve gone for?
Weve never targetted players of this price range during the glazer regime, and now were expected to believe weve gone hell for leather to bring in 6 in the last 2 years?
Call me paranoid if you wish, but i firmly believe its part of glazer/gills strategy. Bid for expensive players we know we have absolutely no chance of getting, and when we inevitably miss out we use the “at least we tried”, “its because theyre greedy” excuse as if thats supposed to comfort us.
The fans idiotically believe the money is there (that warchest must be close to bursting by now), and another year passes where catastrophy is averted.
And thats exactly why you wont see us targetting the likes of sahin, sandro, m’villa, martinez, wanyama, lewandowski, llorente, eriksen, schurle etc, you know, players who would probably actually like to come here, and could probably be obtained for a reasonable price.
But no, we’ll keep chasing van persie until that inevitably comes to nothing.
We might even hear some rumours saying were chasing gotze, coentrao, and a renewed move for sneijder again thrown in for good measure.
But you always know with this club exactly how its going to end, because it occurs every god damn summer.
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@tonymontanna4united: you forgot to add the trademarked line – “no value in the market” . to me van persie looks like staying at arsenal and with the signings they made they look formidable ( at least until February when the self implode button is pushed and things go downhill).
so, transfer business is done till August 2013
.
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@Nelson: Carzola in particular is a fantastic piece of business for them at only £15m (best bit of business of the summer alongside kagawa imo).
Theyre also apparently close to getting sahin, and m’villa is being lined up in the event they lose song to barca for a mere £10m.
3 excellent players there going for the grand sum of about £30m, add another £10m if the sahin deal is a permanent one.
No value indeed
As i said last summer where i was lambasted for it, if were incapable of successfully bringing in players from the tier 1 bracket (the modric’s, rvp’s, hazard’s of this world) , then for goodness sake start making some moves for players from the next level down category who will still make a big difference to the team, and will probably come with a higher probability of being completed successfully.
Sahin, sandro, m’villa, khediera, witsel, fellaini, moutinho, wanyama, cabaye, tiote…..
Are none of these good enough? Really.
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@tonymontanna4united: We will sign Van Persie, ignoring the midfield is for me negligent. But the thought of RvP and Rooney in tandem is very exciting.
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I’m not the biggest fan of the 4-4-2, but it’s a viable option so I wanted to cover it. There will be 4 more articles coming, covering 4-4-1-1, 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, and 4-5-1.
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Even smaller clubs are run better ..I envy Everton BTW
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@Vignesh: Why? They have no money are are run by Bill Kenwright who turns down outside investment? Have you not seen their fans protesting?
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Apparently our shares are just worth 5$ and not the 14$ or even the mooted 16-20 $ share price range – http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/9474198/Manchester-United-worth-2.2bn-less-than-Glazers-believe.html
LUFG
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come @Nelson: come on mate that article reeks of ABU. We are worth only $800 million, even without the IPO forbes valued us at over 1.5 billion jut from assets and growth? And some of the statments on there are borderline lies on our revenue and growth.
These newspapers were always sensationalist and always anti united are now standing up for us and our fans? Our stocks started slow and that hardly surprised any investor considering how people view sports franchises here in the market. Why are priviate firms commenting on another stock price unless they are being paid to do so. This reeks of one of Duncan Drasdo’s stunts and its incredible how ludicrous this has become. As much as I dislike the glazers, this IPO has the potential to lift our debt burdens and that is vital for our clubs continued existence.
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We make barely £10 million a year in profits. A valuation of even a billion implies a P/E of 100 which is crazy for a company that has pretty much exhausted all the ways possible to fleece money from the fans and has limited further growth potential.
The Telegraph described the shares as merchandise. It is a pretty good description. Because no-one in their right mind would invest money in a club when half of any money raised will be pocketed by the Glazers and the other half will go into paying off debt rather than funding future expansion.
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@colver: You are wrong about the profits. Heres the figures (operating profits, meaning income – expenses):
Year 2009 – 123.5m GBP
Year 2010 – 64.3m GBP
Year 2011 – 63.2m GBP
Year 2012 (for 9 months) – 50.7 GBP
So its not 10m as you make out them to be. Man Utd are massively profitable actually every year.
Part of these profits go towards paying interests. Right now still some money is left after that.
The club is working overtime to increase revenues (new deals for virtually everything – do you know we have an official Noodles partner!!!) The income is only going to increase in future. GM will pay us $70m every year from 2014! Similar figure can be expected from Nike or whosoever becomes next merchandising partner. So lot of money is to be made there. The revenues are only going to increase massively.
With regards to debts, so long they can be comfortably serviced they are actually preferred by businesspeople. After all, any interest payments reduce your tax liability directly! imagine the tax utd must have to pay for 120m profits – almost 40-50m I’d think – same as our debt interest payments almost.
Source for this data is this link: http://www.businessinsider.com/manchester-uniteds-financials-and-sponsors-2012-8?op=1
FYI: This is a post from a very neutral point of view – I’ve tried to jot down only facts.
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I also see us signing Van Persie. Ferguson won’t be able to resist it. How often do we get the chance to sign a world class player? Forget the fact he is 29, injury prone, in the last year of his contract and plays in a position that we are well covered in. This will be the coup that Fergie will use to try and pull the wool over the fans. Again.
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@colver: It is rare for us to buy the finish article. We have a policy of buying youth and developing their talent. RvP for me is a no brainer, we scored a lot of goals last season and with him I think we will score a lot more!
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Angelo Henriquez having medical at Manchester United
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This is such a joke. We’re signing Henriquez and now were on our way to sign Van Persie.
Guess we’ll be playing 4-0-6 this season.
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Last time we let in 6 against City this time we will let 60 !!
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Complete and utter waste. Where is the midfielder?Fergie has probably become the biggest clown in World Football.
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I am now fine if we dont sign van Persie now…we have five strikers already with this new kid. The wages Van Persie is being quoted with is not worthwhile..
While every year for the past 3 or 4 years, fans have been looking for a midfielder while Fergie never buys one despite getting others through the window…its pretty obvious its not about money but rather, Fergie just doesnt see it.
What trully erks me is the news media reporting that we bought him out of desperation cause city were on him as well..what tosh, we have had an agreement over him from years past and there was news of this potential transfer a month or so ago but didnt get any news reel…now we can attribute this to our era of austerity..rediculous
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@RMJ: Hmmmm….. I just posted here for debate but regardless of whether its ABU or not it doesn’t change my stance on the glazers.
Frankly I can’t wait for the season to start so that I can start ranting about tactics and player selection rather than the glazers everyday
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@Owen: wasn’t he supposed to go on loan?
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with all this glazers talk I had forgotten that we were in for Angelo. wasn’t he supposed to go on loan?
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It seems a strange signing. I’d rather we used that £4 million to add on to whatever we’ve offered for Van Persie. We already have Welbeck and Hernandez so why do we need another young inexperienced striker?
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Hargo, Morrison, Pogba leave
Giggs and Scholes age beyond 37
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Fergie buys 2 strikers (RvP + Angelo), a forward (Kagawa), a winger (Young), and League 1 MF (Powell)
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Obviously, Fergie is inventing a new tactic:
4-6
No midfielders at all and no official striker… just a mesh of attacking players.
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@Opti:
isnt that barca?
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@d2v: nope, it’s the anti-barca
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Personally don’t think 4-4-2 is an archaic formation. It’s not a system, just a framework within which a system is applied. The problem is our football system. That’s why, even when we use a 4-2-3-1 or any “Christmas Tree” variation, we still suck. The 3-5-2 formation predates the 4-4-2, but has now been resurrected and is in widespread use, particularly in Italy. Formations will be rotated throughout the ages. What becomes modern, is the systematic application. What is archaic at United, is the system.
Two vertically mobile central midfielders, only work if an extra one is deployed to play deep and disciplined. If the two are your only options, you either don’t respect the opposition at all or it’s the 1994/95 season. Or you clearly know nothing about football. If you look at the starting line up for the last friendly or the general idea behind it.you’ll not be suprised how open and generally porous we were. Our trainers clearly believe defence is for designated defenders and a shortage of goals is a result of poor strikers. Yet when you look at individual stats and performances,you’ll see that our players can walk into any team. You look at Jonny Evans’ stats and you’d struggle to find better anywhere in England. Even prompting Ferguson to declare he’s “arguably the best defender” in the league. David De Gea made the most saves,has the best one on ones and has generally top3 stats all round. Carrick? Still one of the best all round midfielders in the league. Rooney? Just top 5 forwards in the world. Nani? Joint top creator and assists in the league. Valencia. Players’ Player of the Season.
The reason we can’t combine these players into a fluid team, is poor system. We could easily play 4-4-2, with Scholes and Carrick as “double pivot” that is two deep-lying playmakers as in Carrick’s first season. Or Carrick and Anderson/Cleverly with the former strictly holding and the latter attacking. In last season’s Champions League embarrassment, we dominated possession in all our matches but still created little and conceded frequently. It’s a real paradox. Great individual talents,great stats,ridiculous results. The real problem is we’re so pathetically predictable. Yes, we’ll dominate possession,but we’ll always go wide to the wingers, who will cross to the strikers, who run towards goal. When we go through the middle, we overcommit, with both central midfielders going forward and leaving gaps. This puts the defence under heavy pressure. Errors galore.
Now we’re buying a million strikers, because of a lack of continental goals. With Kagawa in,interest in RvP makes the United 4-4-2 worse. We’ve not taken any external, i.e. transfer steps to solidify central midfield but we’re trying to get two high profile attackers in. On some forum, someone joked about how United will start playing 4-0-6. Not too far off from our version of the 4-4-2.
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Guess I’m old news with the 4-0-6. The Henriquez signing is ridiculous. I don’t care if he scores 100goals/season down in Mexico,we’ve got too many goal getters. I find it strange when people say we have no money. We’ve signed or tried to sign or are trying to sign the least critical players. We have Rooney,Welbeck,Chicharito,Henriquez,Berbatov and Kagawa in the goals department,yet we’re trying to sign RvP. We almost signed a totally unproven 18 year old winger for close to £30m, yet we have Nani and Valencia in the same role. Hardly players you’d expect need replacement or further competition. The agent admitted, everything had been finalised and was waiting for the presence of all participating signatories as soon as the Games closed. We had literally been left with signatures, meaning bid was accepted, player had agreed in principle,but in an obscene display of money grabbing, we were rescued, from an almost certain deal, that was not useful at all. The conspiracy theories are clearly rubbish.
Ladies and gentlemen, it’s pretty clear, we do have the necessary money to buy the players Ferguson wants but not what the team needs. If we were going to buy an 18year old winger for nearly £30m,it’s obvious if Ferguson wanted Moutinho for €30m he’d have signed by now. Forget, M’Villa,Diarra,Tiote. Easy buys. People with no money don’t agree to useless and expensive contracts. They use a combination of common and economic sense. Ferguson is probably one of the most wasteful spenders in Europe. Berbatov,Young,Jones,Henriquez, almost Lucas and probably RvP. The Berbatov scenario is one example of just how far we are from broke. Complete opposite. I don’t really know how his mind works to be honest, but I’m more perplexed with people claiming we have no money. Anyone has the freewill to hate Glazers,but it’s obviously a biased shielding of Ferguson to suggest they’re hindering us from getting the players we actually need
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@Jay wire: Yet, of all the strikers you mention, only RvP can play up front on his own which is surely an advantage in Europe?
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@Jay wire: Are you sugguesting the Glazers are good owners?
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@Jay wire: The whole lucas saga was just typical of what our transfer business has become.
Negotiate for months on end, supposedly offer a shit load of money and then ultimately see it all fall apart because we arent prepared to pay an few extra million, we find the players wage demands unrealistic, the agent gets greedy (erm rio’s agents fees cough), someone offers more money than us etc etc.
Tbh i find it hard to believe that after negotiating for nearly 3 months we were only just coming to an agreement, and yet psg come in and its done in a matter of days.
Yes psg are a different animal to us, and can afford to throw in an extra £10m for good measure, but its hardly news that brazilians are sterotypically rather greedy, have asshole agents who want to make as much money as quickly as possible.
With that in mind, you’d have thought we’d have wanted to get negotiations done as quickly as possible or moved on, rather than waiting for lucas for weeks on end because “he needs time to make his decision”. But no.
We take our sweet old time however and act surprised when someone comes in and outbids us and surprise surprise, the brazilian chooses the better money and location and goes elsewhere
Come off it.
If we were ever really after him him we’d have got him. Unfortunately alot of our business seems to be half hearted these days. We’d like such an such a player, but when it comes to really pushing the boat out, were just not too bothered.
But feel free to disagree with all this. After a bad start, ive actually found myself agreeing with a fair few of your posts lately, especially when it comes to our tactical failures.
But your glazer support has quite frankly always startled me.
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@tonymontanna4united: I think you are being a little unfair with regards to the Moura deal. We offered a lot of money for the player (We understand) but quite frankly whatever we would have bid PSG would have offered more. Moura has committed footballing suicide by signing for them. There was genuine interest but the lad was all about the money and a lot of clubs could not out bid a side where money is no object.
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@Jay wire: Since the Glazer family took over Manchester United in 2005, the club has won four Premier League titles, one Champions League and three League Cups, as well as reaching Europe’s showpiece final on two other occasions. In that time, United have been outspent not just by reigning Premier League champions Man City (net spend £417.12m) and European champs Chelsea (£276.44m), but also Liverpool (£108.95m) and Tottenham (£90.95m), with the net spend at Old Trafford totalling £52.6m in the past seven years. Yes it does prove that the dreaded Glazers are not investing in players. However, look at what we have won compared to the big spending clubs and it proves what a great manager SAF is. Imagine if he could get the players he wants?
Yes they are great owners…
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I see the logic in signing Van Persie as a straight replacement for Berbatov and interchangeable with Rooney in a 4-5-1 in Europe. Both Welbeck and Hernandez are too lightweight to lead the line and do not offer a credible goal threat as a starter. But we could do without Van Persie. And we certainly don’t need this Henriquez kid.
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RVP is exceptional sighing who can score around 20goals per season without much fuss.
442 is still well balanced formation and very useful when we play bread & butter league game due to breaking down 10 back defensive formation with wing play.
In theory, one very good defensive DM cannot solve our midfield problem, in the end, all of our players need to work hard and learn how to defend otherwise we will get beat by great team.
I still hope we sign one CM mainly because we even lack of pure number if we count out Giggs/Scholes.
Our young defender need to improve quickly and we also need left back.
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No one is greater than Manchester United the Club and that goes for SAF too…
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Apparently Fletcher thinks he is ready for first team action again. If so that pretty much kills all hope of signing a midfielder
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@colver:
If we were all honest with ourselves we all deep down knew we were never going to sign a centre mid.
Fergie has a total blind spot in that area, for me this is very strange as games are won and lost in this area. I have no issue with Carrick, Scholes should be used sparingly. Cleverley has great ability but cannot be relied upon as he has really unproven same as Powell. Anderson is fucking shit and Fletch may not ever recover. If we bought just one player, the side would look very different. RvP is a terrific buy as is Kagawa, but say put Moutinho or Tiote in there then I would say the side looks very good.
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@Stephen: sooo. fletch played 30 min yesterday and anderson scored. no really
LINK
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@gator:
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A defensive midfielder and a left or center back (hopefully who can play both or atleast on the left) is a must for this season…
Or is Tunnicliffe can play as a DM and is Scot Wooton ready to step up?
And the last no one from the Reserve side gets a proper run and I dont blame Fryers or Pogba wanting to leave….
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@Vignesh: Cleverley?
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Yeah Stephen the writing was on the wall.
Ferguson IS operating under financial constraints. But rather than be sensible and prioritize his spending (IE a central midfielder) he seems to want to spend all his money on attacking players and defenders.
Last season we signed Jones and Young for around £30 million. While they ARE useful squad players I think our season would have turned out a lot differently if we’d spent that £30 million on a central midfielder. We’d have got through to the knock out stages of the Champions League and won the title and the extra revenue from that would have been great as we took a huge financial hit getting knocked out of Europe so early.
This season there are no excuses as we clearly have £30 million (the amount offered for Lucas Moura + the amount offered for Henriques).
I guess all we can hope for is that Cleverely develops into the real deal and Kagaya has the ability to play central midfield
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VAN PERSIE WELCOME TO MANCHESTER
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@Owen: Brilliant signing, superb player.
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@Stephen: Yes but it came 2 years late.
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@Owen:
WOW.
Honestly thought, despite the reports, we’d end up blowing this deal like always, so this is actually a huge surprise for me.
Rvp, rooney, kagawa, nani, welbeck, hernandez, young, valencia. That is some forward line.
If we could only just get a bloody midfielder, we’d be a different team next season.
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