Aug 08
The Tactics Board- A tactical look ahead for Manchester United
Formations in 2012/2013
Sir Alex Ferguson has been the manager of Manchester United for 25 years, and in that time he has become a loyal follower of the 4-4-2 formation that has been dominant in England for decades. This formation has been the foundation upon which he’s built the most successful football clubs in history. He’s managed to win 12 Premier League trophies, 5 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 2 UEFA Champion’s League trophies, 1 UEFA Cup Winners’ Cup, and 1 FIFA Club World Cup.
In this past season, Sir Alex Ferguson made use of several different formations which he altered depending on the players available to him, the team they faced, and the strategy he intended to use. His main formation for most of the past season was a 4-4-1-1, which is very similar to the 4-4-2 that has been the mainstay of his managerial tenure. But he also used a 4-4-2, and a 4-3-3 against some weaker Premier League teams, while he used a 4-5-1 in most of the Champion League and Europa League games. He also made use of 4-2-3-1 in the occasional League game including the season finale against Sunderland.
While the 4-4-2 formation has been the benchmark of Sir Alex Ferguson’s time at Manchester United, there have been some changes taking place within it as teams playing a 4-4-2 have struggled in continental competitions in the last 5 years. Sir Alex Ferguson has admitted the problems with this formation, frequently switching to a 4-5-1 for European games but he continues to use the 4-4-2 for most domestic games.
Sir Alex Ferguson
Sir Alex Ferguson has kept the 4-4-2 as the backbone of his tactical setup, but lately a new formation has been sweeping across Europe and is being utilized by more and more clubs every year. It’s the 4-2-3-1, and in this past season it was the main formation for the Premier League Champions (Manchester City), Bundesliga Champions (Borussia Dortmond), La Liga Champions (Real Madrid), and Ligue Un Champions (Montpellier). This formation has gotten more converts every year, and it has several advantages. Every player has a specific task, and has fairly specialized duties that are normally either offensive or defensive. Only the fullbacks have both offensive and defensive responsibilities. For most games, there are 6 players who are primarily tasked with defense and 4 players whose main assignment is to attack.
There have been many United fans who have advocated that the Manager needs to alter his approach and move with the times. These fans see the acquisition of Shinji Kagawa as a definitive sign that Fergie is planning a move to 4-2-3-1 in the future, as Kagawa would have very little effect on the game as a deeper lying center midfielder. While Kagawa wouldn’t function well in a flat midfield four, a 4-2-3-1 is not the only formation in which United could get the best out of their new purchase.
There are several options available for Manchester United for this season, ranging from Sir Alex Ferguson’s standard 4-4-2 and its close relative, the 4-4-1-1. Most United fans will recognize the 4-4-1-1 as this has become the standard Red Devil formation over the past 2 seasons. United could opt for the 4-3-3 that they used to great effect in the 2008 season, while Chelsea still plays a majority of their games in a 4-3-3. Another option would be the 4-5-1 that Fergie has used repeatedly in Europe for many seasons. Of course, they could make the switch and go to the 4-2-3-1 formation that has been utilized by several continental champions over the past 5 years.
The next 5 articles will look at each formation and break it down numerous ways. I’ll explain the positions and function of each player in the formation, with their roles and responsibilities. I’ll also show how the players work together as a defensive unit, and as an attacking threat. Additionally, I’ll look at how each formation would complement the Red Devils strengths and weaknesses. Most importantly, I’ll show how each formation would work with the personnel that Manchester United has available. My reports will highlight any positional gaps United might have for each formation.
General Traits for Each Formation-
All of the formations that seem likely to be played by United involve a 4 man defensive line, consisting of 2 center-backs and 2 fullbacks. Now, the fullbacks will have different responsibilities and skill requirements, but the skills and responsibilities for the center-backs are very similar across all the formations United is likely to play. Instead of covering this multiple times, we’ll cover now how the center-backs play across all the formations to be covered in the upcoming articles.
In almost all formations with a 4 man defensive line, the center-backs job is almost entirely defensive. They are responsible for protecting the penalty area, and dealing with the opposing strikers. They are the last line of defense. Offensively, their job is limited. They stay fairly deep, to ensure nobody gets behind them on the counter attack. Their main offensive job is just to help control possession, and play the ball out of the back.
The primary center-back pairing this season seems likely to be Nemanja Vidic, and Rio Ferdinand. Vidic is coming back from a serious knee injury that kept him out most of last season, but Rio Ferdinand put in good performances alongside Jonny Evans. It’s uncertain how Vidic will recover from his knee injury, while Ferdinand struggles with continuing back problems. Together, they have formed one of the best defensive pairing in the past 4 years. Vidic is a hard working tackler, never afraid to move out and attack the player with the ball. He’s physically strong, and equally strong in the air. On the other side, Rio Ferdinand has great tactical intelligence. He positions himself well to close down offensive options. He’s not as physically imposing as Vidic, but he does great playing reading the game. Vidic plays as a ‘stopper’ center-back, and Ferdinand plays as the ‘cover’ center-back. United has ample back-up at center-back, with Jonny Evans playing as a quality ‘cover’ defender. Phil Jones plays as a stopper, and Chris Smalling can play either role.
With the center-back position covered, the rest of the positions will be detailed in the following articles. The first formation will be the standard formation for most of Fergie’s years at Manchester United, the 4-4-2…
By RangeRooney Follow @RangeRooney
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Tags: Manchester United · Tactics & Analysis · Tactics Board
The_Philosopher (404)
Redrich (221)
Opti (209)
Moscow (147)
Stephen (147)
RVP to United is hotting up he’s apparently left Arsenals training camp in Germany to complete his move to United. I’m both excited and perplexed in equal amounts.
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It would appear strange to sign Robin Van Persie. He is not exactly cheap for a 29 year old with a history of injury problems even if he is world class when fit and a proven Premiership goalscorer. I can only imagine that Ferguson doesn’t have much faith in Welbeck and Hernandez and feels experience is what we need and sees Van Persie as a better fit than Berbatov.
Van Persie and Rooney is a fantasy football strike partnership. But for it to work we are banking on Kagaya taking over from Scholes as our playmaker and Carrick staying fit because with Pogba gone and Jones sucking badly in midfield last season we are short on good quality defensive midfielders.
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@colver: Cleverley is another option playing deep. He played deeper in the Olympics but I feel he is better going forward. Obviously he isn’t ideal, but Fergie has a blind spot with our midfield and can he him trying yet another square peg in a round whole. Fletcher is also back training with Scotland so you never know, I like him but he is no where near World class and that is what is needed.
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@Stephen: Can’t wait to see Scholes taking on Real and Barca. Cleverley vs Iniesta, tasty.
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@Moscow: We all know the midfield is an issue..
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Does anyone know how much truth there is to all this RVP stuff going around today? Its all over the place on Twitter and a few of the journo sites have reported he has left the training camp but Im that used to being let down im really not sure what to make of it all.
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The real question is why would united spend £20-25 million on a 29 year-old who, unless Ferguson neutralises Kagawa by putting him on the wing, drops him entirely, or puts Rooney on the wing, won’t start. All these rumours are just to drive RVP’s new Arsenal contract up.
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Lucas Moura has officially signed for PSG. Joins them in January. http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/1130869/paris-saint-germain-confirm-deal-to-sign-sao-paulo's-lucas-moura?cc=5901
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ = PSG
$$ = Lyon
$ = rest.
——-
They call it competition.
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@Opti: After the inter supremo dropped that bomb…i lost all hope and so not really surprised there. Money speaks especially when the agent gets 3 to 6 mil?
Actually with Malago going under, we should be able to pick up some talents there like Toulalan.etc
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@RMJ: Isla would be a better buy than Lucas would have been. Cheaper, and more proven. He’s played in a tough Spanish league, instead of the powder puff Brazilian league.
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@RangeRooney: Isla-Sanchez combo at ’10 was quite dreamy! Too bad Sanchez is not an option…
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Is Fergie even being serious when saying that he doesn’t know why Arsenal aren’t negotiating…Its pretty obvious to everyone else.
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Honestly I don’t know why we continue this charade each summer of going for players we don’t have a chance of getting. First Hazard. Now Lucas. We are no longer in the position where we can compete for the hottest young talent in the world. We would do much better to identify more realistic targets.
By all accounts the Van Persie deal is going south. Arsenal are holding out for crazy money and not surpisingly would rather sell him abroad. Van Persie doesn’t seem to be forcing the move and as Arsenal have made a few good signings this summer he may even do a U-turn. And of course our midfield is a much greater priority.
I’m delighted we signed Kagaya. He is the attacking midfielder we needed. The logical next step would be to buy a defensive midfielder as cover for Carrick given the departure of Pogba and Fletcher’s illness. So I don’t even know why players like Hazard and Lucas Moura were on our shopping list in the first place. Except for the fact that we wanted to make it look like we have the money to bid for the wonder kids knowing we can always blame the agents, the Arabian billionaires and player greed when the deal inevitably falls through.
If the summer ends and the only new additions are Kagaya and Powell (for a net spend of barely £20 million with the Park money etc) I’m going to be pretty pissed. With our club losing ground in the Premiership and in Europe if we really did have a transfer budget of around £60 million (assuming we were willing to pay £15 million for Van Persie and £30 million for Moura and intended to buy both) it is nonsensical that we didn’t have a Plan B in place if we failed to land our number one targets.
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Sir Alex summer signings are complete. unless he does a bebe then forget about any additions. getting upstaged by psg just shows how money matters more than brands and the glazers should take note.am tired of this 659 million shit. show the money or fuck off, thats the world football lives in and even FFP won’t change that.
looking forward to the hopefully not painful season ahead. transfers are closed
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@Nelson: Can you blame us for not parting with £35m for an unproven 19 year old?
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@Stephen: We paid similar amounts for Rooney, worked out very well though. And 18 mil for a 18 year old defender (Jones)!
I still believe that Moura is not worth that amount.
My point is fergie blaming others for paying over the odds is hypocritical when we have been doing the same (united tax or not).
Most of the fans are baffled to see how the greatest manager of all time cannot see or overlooks the obvious holes in squad (midfield).
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@AndyCR7: We all know about the issues in midfield. Jones will come good, he is young and English and that costs. Rooney at that sort of money wasn’t a gamble, Moura at £35/36m is a massive one and we don’t have that sort of money.
@AndyCR7: Players are soley interested in money, not projects.
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@Stephen: no and if you read any of my previous comments you will know that I claimed Lucas was an unnecessary bet since we have plenty of options upfront. same for RvP with his checkered injury problems but this doesn’t deviate from the fact that we can simply claim that ‘we are united’ and a player suddenly gets wet in his knickers and doesn’t think of any other club apart from us. those days are over. players these days are excited about ‘projects’ and money
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If, as i expect, we are now done with transfers for this window, at the very least can we please get nani tied up to a new long term contract perhaps.
He was quality last night (was in last years friendly v barca too), and is still one of the few remaining players at this club that has the ability to excite you and get you out of your seat.
Just give him the bloody money he wants fergie/gill. Hes as deserving as rooney (how out of shape is he right now) or rio imo.
As i said before and as i’ll say again, he should be starting every week without fail, and preferably in his favoured right side position.
Valencia for all his qualities, is still incredibly one dimensional and ineffective in a lot of games (nani is too i know but less frequently than valencia). Valencia is a squad player who can come in and do a job as far as im concerned. Effective in certain games but never a guaranteed starter and just never a number 7.
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@tonymontanna4united: How is Nani as deserving as Rooney? Nani has great spells but is still very inconsistant, Wazza scored 35 goals in 44 games and is by far our best player.
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@Stephen: Inconsistent, really? Id urge you to find a winger with as impressive stats as nani these last 3 years. Without doubt he can be frustrating, but i wouldnt ever say inconsistent.
As for rooney, yes he is our best player, but also just as frustrating. When at his worst, which seems to be a good 10-15 games a season, he is a massive hinderance to this team (one of the reasons id be 100% behind a move for rvp).
I didnt exactly mean nani should be on level wages to rooney, but he should definitely be in the top pay bracket alongside the likes of him, rio, vidic and others.
After rooney and vidic, hes got to be our most important player when on form, so surely he deserves to be on similar pay to them.
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@tonymontanna4united: More important than Valencia, who for me was our player of the year? Yes Nani is inconsistent and still makes poor decisions, he drifts in and out of games, goes down far too softly and goes missing too often. Yes there are moments of brilliance, but he isn’t as good as he thinks he is. Vida is our captain and one of the best defenders in the World, Nani is contrast ins’t at that level.
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@tonymontanna4united: I think to say that Valencia is just a good squad player is wrong in the current squad. Who would you start ahead of him? Young? Really? Or ruin Kagawa by putting him on the wing? Valencia is for me the most-consistently effective winger we have. But I agree that Nani has to be tied down, because Young really isn’t good enough to start in the big games.
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@AS: Well i just meant in terms of choosing between nani and valencia, then its nani for me every time, and watching nani in the euros, last night, the last fews years, its obvious that he excels when played in his favoured right wing position.
Bearing in mind alot of us would like to see rvp arriving, it obviously means a slight change in certain players roles/positions, and obviously kagawa would have to be one of them most likely on the left wing (where he played many times for dortmund), with rooney in behind.
Alternatively if as im guessing, we sign no one else, then its still about time we started looking at alternative formations and systems, and unfortunately for valencia, none apart from the usual 4-4-2 are going to be effective with him in it. Hes just too old fashioned for him to be able to work in a 4-3-3, or fluid 4-2-3-1 (particularly 4-3-3).
Maybe it sounds a little disrespectful to dismiss him as just a squad player given what a fine season he had last year, but i just get a little frustrated as to how under valued a player like nani is at times.
Yes he can be frustrating, yes he can be stupid at times, but on his day hes unplayable, and one of the most exciting players in the squad. If we released the shackles from him, i think he has even more room to grow, so we should be doing whatever possibly to tie him down and give him as freedom as possible.
He was the rightful number 7 choice in my mind, and with that should be guaranteed to start week in week out.
With his contract issue however, i just worry he might be heading berbatovs way ie a great player who will never be fully appreciated as we seem to prefer hard working, work man like types more.
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@tonymontanna4united: Nani wasn’t great in the Euros. The Portuguese press called him their biggest disappointment, he does a few things right, then does a few things wrong. He goes down like a hooker on prom night, he needs to mature massively if he is to reach his potential. For me Valencia is above him, he is consistent, works hard, doesn’t dive, is a good crosser, tracks back and is very humble. All round he is a super player, Nani has it all but also has too many faults.
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@Stephen: Rooney was pathetic all tournament for england aswell, just as he was during the last WC. What nani does for portugal, and rooney for england though has no relevance to how they perform for us.
In terms of what nani does at united, i dont think anyone can dispute his stats.
30 goals in his last 3 seasons and as many assists, i dont see how that can be called inconsistent.
Hes a natural flair player, likes to take players on, have a run and bring out all the tricks- maybe thats why he gets this inconsistent tag as its bound to not come off from time to time.
Robben, ribery, di maria, walcott, hazard? Id have nani over any of them.
I do see what your saying regarding valencias consistency. My point however is, valencia will always have a consistent 7 out of 10 most games, nani is capable of producing that bit of magic and producing a 9 out of 10.
Contrary to what certain people seem to feel, i think he produces those sort of performances far more frequently than some give him credit for.
Hes one of the few remaining flair players in a team that has become far too workman like.
Hes also adept in any number of different systems and formations, which is something valencia is not capable of.
If its pretty much widely agreed we need to move away from the old fashioned 4-4-2, particularly in europe, what good is it when were calling valencia one of our key players, who is the true definition of a 4-4-2 player.
As i say, its his failure to play in numerous systems, as well as his one dimensional play, that leads to my feelings that he is best suited as a squad player, particularly in europe.
But i dont take away hes got his strengths. I just think the games where we need an out and out winger bombing down the wings and putting crosses in are becoming few and far between. I mean it doesnt particularly help against teams who sit back 11 men behind the ball or against more competent defences really does it.
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@tonymontanna4united: Vally plays in the centre of midfield for Ecuador, he has played at right back for us, so I would say he is more adaptable mate.
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@Stephen: Well then maybe we should try experimenting with him in these positions from time to time (i know he was played at RB v barca but that was just a meaningless friendly).
I said before, in games vs relegation fodder at home we should maybe try out a 3-4-3 or something to that effect that i feel valencia would work very well in.
Something like below looks tasty:
——–De Gea——–
–Smalling-Rio-Vidic–
Valencia——–??????
—–Carrick-????—–
–Nani–Rooney–Kagawa
Its not that i think valencia is a poor player, just that his style really does limit us in regards to the systems we play.
But valencia as wing back does make sense and could be an option that would still mean we could see rooney as the front man, nani in his favoured position in a free role etc (not that its ever going to happen with our coaches but still an idea).
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With looks like yet another frustrating Summer. Kagawa looks like a decent player but being Japanese and only a year left in his contract I am sure helped the deal through. The proposed signing of Moura was bizarre, yet another winger and at a stupid price, I feel we have had a lucky escape there. RvP for me would be a good signing, at least he is World Class even though he has an incredible injury record so he will fit in well.
Why do we never sign midfield players?! Yes we have signed Powell but he hardly gets your pulse racing. Tiote, Erikson, Modric and Moutinho have all been linked and are all available at the right price why has Fergie got such a blind spot there? Anderson is fat and shit, Fletch probably has had it, Scholes was brilliant last season but is 37, Cleverley has promise but has a poor injury record, Carrick has a terrific season last time around, but it was about time too. Two top draw signings in that position and the side would have a totally different look to it.
Also we were linked to Baines and again nothing has happened. Fergie is moaning about crazy prices but, Berba cost £30m, Carrick £18.6m, Anderson £20m!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, Bebe £7.4m, Tosic £7.5m, Rio £30m when Leeds when about to go pop, De Gea £18m, Veron £28m when Lazio were about to go pop and still owed us money from Stam. Value, what value..
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A good look at the current situation at the club and our chances for the new season. “red wine helps” lol
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/aug/09/premier-league-previews-manchester-united
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You are right Stephen. There is a whole range of mid-range midfielders who could add some experience and quality to the side. So I don’t know why we go for these fantasy signings thinking we can negotiate down the asking price and wage demands and avoid all the charges that go along with the leeches that attach themselves to the hottest prospects. Stick to mid-range no glamour players who can make us a better team.
I’m also glad we didn’t sign Hazard or Moura. But the fact remains with the exception of Kagaya we’ve failed to strengthen the first team and look short of quality in central midfield.
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Comparing Nani and Valencia is an insult to Valencia. He is one of the most consistent player in the League and has been the 2nd best player behind Rooney in last 3 years.
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Bolttt………….Fergie,Fergie Sign him Up…
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Nani is world class and would be unbelievable at barca, he should be given a free role to control games, hopefully 4 2 3 1 system next season will be good for him. He is far too under rated in my honest opinion
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1. First and foremost, I am thoroughly disappointed in everyone that has insulted the integrity, ability or ambition of Sir Alex… Truth be told, we are a tad bit spoilt (Spoilt by the amount of games we win, spoilt by the trophies we’ve won, spoilt by the stability of having the longest serving manager) . We are taking him for granted. Nevertheless it would be incredibly naive for all of us to sit there and believe that he’s perfect, he is not! I’m pretty sure theres a lot of money laundering and he has made a fair amount of money outside his salary. I know one thing for a fact – i know he loves the club, i know he loves his ego even more.. Those are what drives him to be so successful. if he doesn’t buy, i trust that he will do his possible best to win us games and win us trophies- and i can live with that. That is his job- Moyes wont quit because of lack of funds, who ever criticizes their employers anyway.
2. The loss of lucas is bitter/sweet. On one hand we lost a mercurial talent that is somewhat unproven, nevertheless bags full of potential, on the other hand he went to PSG, i mean PSG, its laughable!!! At his age players should be looking for prestige, history and trophies that actually matter and then towards the tail end of their careers, they should chase money, money and more money. With that said good luck to Drogba, Yakubu, Anelka,Okocha, Beckham, Henry and to hell with Nasri, Hazard, Lucas et al. He probably would have left when Madrid came calling.
3. Just a thought….If we do sign RVP, i get the feeling we might start playing Rooney in midfield, i think he could be an awesome box to box midfielder because for the life of me i don’t see why we would buy Kagawa and then RVP. Robin is a better finisher and Rooney is a very good second striker which is similar to what Kagawa is – in that they both play off the tradition NO 9 striker. We really do need to decide what we want Rooney to be, once and for all!
4. Nani is immense , absolutely freaking immense- he gave barca nightmares.. Valencia is efficient, Nani is unpredictable, and AShley is somewhat in between ( All three would give assists though, Young does seem to score crucial goals and gives crucial assists) i quite fancy Valencia at full back though. He is strong, fast, has a good cross, well disciplined. it would require having at intelligent midfielder- who would slot at right back when Valencia overlaps- because Nani wont. All in all, we need all three to stay put! i would love all three to play. besides Rafael isn’t a better full back than Valencia in my opinion.
What do you guys think?
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@One United: Rooney as a box to box cm? hell no. he better stick in the hole or uptop as a support or main striker. I don’t like this idea of square pegs in round holes, Rafael might have his moments of madness I’d rather have him at RB as opposed to Valencia. don’t let pre season matches and games against weaker teams fool you. when it comes to the real business those square pegs will be fully exposed.
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Embaressed to be a red today. The pimp takes its little whore to Wall Street. Nice one Malc
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/62c56e2c-e2fe-11e1-a78c-00144feab49a.html#axzz23AAAyLEK
LUHG
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@ Nelson: there is nothing rafael can do that valencia cant do is all i’m saying, as far as Rooney goes….. well the truth is i cant really understand why we are signing Kagawa and RVP. Rooney box to box might necessarily be a bad idea.. he definitely has the energy to track from box to box, he can shoot, he can pass, most times his touch is good enough, he can use his head for those late surges into the box.
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When did the Portuguese describe Nani as their biggest disappointment? He was among their better performers and was definitely ahead of Ronaldo, at the Euros. The tournament was generally flaccid, but he was one of the most exciting. Nani is definitely not inconsistent. Not anymore. You don’t become one of the top 3 creators in the league by being inconsistent. Valencia did exceptionally well, but so did Nani. People like Young, Jones, Anderson,Giggs and arguably even Rooney,are inconsistent. Well, Rooney is better nowadays, but Nani is definitely not inconsistent. In my opinion, he’s even more important than Valencia. What is the real problem? Okay, I’ve always said it but whatever. Poor techniques.
Traditional wingers are becoming old news every day, hence the description “traditional”. We keep using players like Nani, Young and Valencia as traditional wingers. For me, Nani is an inverted winger, like Nasri,Di Maria,Ribery etc. He offers a whole lot more, coming from wide, turning central, to create and attempt goals. You can see the joy he’s getting from playing with Kagawa. They link up well in and around goal and cause so much trouble for the central defenders. If we utilise him that way, we get the very best of Nani. Getting him as close to goal as possible is the best way to use him
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@Jay wire: I think by saying Nani is inconsistent, they mean:
1) He can be world class and dazzle us with his skills
2) He often plays well
3) He doesn’t dazzle often enough
———
By inconsistent, I think they mean he is capable of more than his average, but that his average is still good (read: better than young, for example).
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@One United: yeah and ji sung park was a hustler and tireless guy and so united thought he will be a good defensive midfielder and Rafael, since he had more experience than pogba was much better choice in CM….. we were shite against Blackburn . the fact that Rooney and Valencia have some attributes associated with the positions mentioned doesnt mean they will deliver as people who are natural in those positions. of course they can be retrained but at this point I’d rather have people at their natural positions rather than going for square pegs.
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shares are trading flat but I ain’t paying for shit. I am glad a portion og the money I pay for cable is distributed amongst all clubs from arsenal to Wigan. I will never pay the leeches directly and with their greedy attitude they might just sell our stadium naming rights and call it dorritos so as to line their pockets. love united the club, hate united the franchise, Gill, glAzer and Gilbatar the fucking horse
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Rooney is not a box to box midfielder and never will be. Why would you want to convert one of the best forwards in the world into a midfielder simply to make room for a few new signings?
If we sign Van Persie he will play in a 4-4-2 alongside Rooney. Ferguson has never been able to abandon the 4-4-2 and the Premier League is always his main objective. Besides which if he does decide to go back to a 4-5-1 in Europe it is very useful that he has two players capable of leading the line assuming we sign RVP.
I’m not sure how Kagaya will fit in. Can he play ahead of Carrick in central midfield?
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@ Nelson, Clover…….. its not the first and it wont be the last time in football where players are converted. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn’t. Look at Macherano, Demechelis, Dembele.. it worked out for them. All i am saying to anyone that is listening is , WE ARE SHORT IN MIDFIELD and sticking a Wayne Rooney in there is definitely an upgrade at who we have there right now, PLUS with Kagawa signed, i really don’t see Fergie playing Rooney in the hole. If we do sign Van Persie, can anyone please suggest the formation we would play (both RVP and Wazza are far too good for the bench)
May i also point out Rooney did fairly well when he filled the central midfield role for us and Kagawa is a far better player in the hole than Wayne Rooney is! well far more creative anyway!!!
@ Clover- To answer your question, it is because Van Persie is far more clinical in front of goal and far more consistent (with scoring, creating, oh and injuries) and because Rooney is the more versatile player. Lemme put this on record, Rooney is a better all round player. ultimately I would love to see a Rooney paired with RVP in some way, but that would mean Kagawa and Wellbeck (who i have faith in) with suffer significantly. If we don’t play Rooney in Midfield, its either Kagawa or RVP playing in our starting lineup ALONGSIDE Rooney.
Long live Nani- one of the most productive Wingers in all of football
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@One United: No disrespect, but Carrick was one of our best players last season. Scholes coming back was a revelation, how is putting a striker in there an upgrade?
I have no issue with these two, as long as Scholes is used in moderation. We need to add more flesh on the bones. Anderson is a fat waste of space and how he is still at my great club is a mystery. Cleverley deserves another look as he has showed promise. We need a player like Tiote and another like Erikson, Moutinho. I see Fletch is again training so fingers crossed but he isn’t remotely World Class. I am fed up with square pegs in round holes, Rooney is a forward and should only be played as one, simple .
Fuck Malcom Glazers and his bastard sons and fuck you David Gill.
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@One United: its a squad game mate
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@One United: yes they can be retrained, I get your argument there but won’t I don’t like is the idea of retraining them because we cannot afford to go to the market and buy some players capable of filling those positions naturally. we are Manchester United, a big club which should be able to attract and afford talent, not act like paupers. if we were in the middle of the season with an injury crisis, I could understand but here we are in a still open transfer window so there is no excuse really of no bringing in replacements. that won’t happen though because we have spent majority of the summer chasing fantasy signings ( cynical part of me believes its all for making some gullible duds in wallstreet adjust share prices up), expecting to pay less money, which in itself is as mad as the prices demanded.
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Rooney only looked good in midfield against mediocre opposition allowing him lots of space, time on the ball and ability to spray passes all around. I don’t think he has the composure and discipline to play midfield against good opposition which will require him to be more patient with his passing, play keep-ball, keep his positioning, and deal with a lot of pressing.
Your argument seems to be predicated on Kagaya playing in the hole. But as Rooney would only be able to play attacking midfielder they’d get in each other’s way.
What we really need is either someone like Tiote who can break up play in the middle of the park or someone like Modric who can set the tempo in midfield. When fit Scholes can fulfill the latter role. Fletcher used to be able to fill the former role (but in all honesty in the modern game I think he gives the ball way too cheaply to play in a 4-4-2).
If we signed Van Persie I’d play the following team in a 4-2-3-1
EVDS-Jones, Rio, Vidic, Evra-Carrick, Cleverley-Rooney Kagaya Nani-Van Persie
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@colver: Colver that actually looks like a good side, certainly more forward think than the outdated 4-4-2 which we need now to move away from.
I for one for the first time in my life can admit I am not all that excited about next season. I am sure when it is here my blood will be pumping through my veins and the intoxication of football will once again overwhelm me. What looks like another disappointing close season with regards to the transfer market, looks of near misses and not many new recruits.
With Chelsea and Arsenal all recruiting well, we have a Jap and Powell. Rvp
P hangs in the balance and the much needed injection in midfield has once gain been neglected. I will have to put up watching that fat prick Anderson waddle around for another season with people banging on about his “potential” yet again. Carrick had his best season for years and it is probable that is will not transcend into this one, Fergie will say there is no value and Michael Owen will be brought back in December when Rooney gets injured again, oh joy.
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@Stephen: EVDS won’t come out of retirement
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What Ferguson needs to do is scout Spain a bit. They have the best midfielders in the world and they seem to adapt easily to the Premiership. We only need the Athletic Bilbao game to see how even a midtable Spanish side can look like Barcelona against our midfield.
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Ha. Makes me laugh everyone wanking over Spanish players. Cleverley is as good as any midfielder in Spain. Tunni ain’t far behind either. I’m off for a smoke.
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@nm: I laughed.
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Yeah we look dumb if we don’t sign R.V.P. We sign him and the more impressionable fans are going to be excited and bang on about us having the best striker partnership in the world. The thinking fans are going to see it as what it is-a marquee signing to appease the fans while the underlying problems of the team go unaddressed.
Our approach to the central midfield is the donkey approach. Wait till Scholes and Giggs drop dead. And only then bother to sign replacements.
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@colver: It reminds me when we sold Beckham and Veron, Fergie stated this was Ok due to how well Quinton Fortune and Phil Neville has played there…..
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Yeah. These days Ferguson devotes much of his time to making excuses:
1) We crash out of Europe…..blame the young defenders ignoring completely the fact that in virtually every game our midfield was outclassed
2) We fail to sign Sneijder…claim it is because we don’t want to block Pogba’s development. Somehow the same argument does not seem to apply to our latest chase for Van Persie whose signing will clearly severely limit Hernandez and Welbeck’s first team chances.
3) Fail to sign a bona fide central midfielder this summer. The excuse is already prepared. Ferguson has already said that he sees Powell playing first team football next season.
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United need a Deco i.e. a central midfielder who can do everything (box-to-box, ball winner, creator etc.) They would or should be played next to Scholes or Carrick in a 4-2-3-1. The player who fits the bill best atm is Modric. After Kagawa, I feel that RVP really is a pointless signing. The way Feguson talks about it makes it sound that they really want it, which most likely means that if he comes it will be 4-4-2, or 4-2-3-1 with Rooney on the wing. I have no idea why Ferguson does not keep berbatov, forget RVP and offer 35 million for Modric. And Cissokho as cover and successor to Evra. My team would be 4-3-2-1 De Gea, Rafael, Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra, Scholes, Modric, Valencia, Kagawa, Nani, Rooney.
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@AS: thats a good looking team. i guess frgie is still looking for rvp as a world class alternative to rooney is still needed in case he picks up long term injury. our other forwards do not have rooney’s ability or goal scoring/creating prowess. fergie doesnot have any confidence in berba left.
we will always have 4 forwards, 2 world class in rooney and rvp and 2 good rookies in chica and welbz.
and yes fergie make the modric thing happen, even over rvp. desperately needed. and i wud rather buy eriksen than rvp.
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I guess that it is worth while punting on Mexican Herrera chap, or how about Korean, Ki. They are all look good potential, young and can attack/defend. Team need some reinforcement in center.
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if rvp arrives could we play 4-3-2-1 with rvp up top, rooney and kagawa behind him and three central midfielders behind (maybe carrick, scholes and cleverly). we’ll have to play two very attacking fullbacks for this to work.
what would happen to our battery of wingers though!!! maybe nani can alternate with kagawa. valencia with scholes/cleverly etc and young with rooney and rooney with rvp himself! or nani and valencia can play full backs!!! pretty mindblowing stuff, but nothing fergie is incapable of.
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And city get Rodwell. Mancini knows that the key to dominance is a great midfield. Fergie on the other hand is making it a joke. Scholes and Giggs to the rescue.
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@Darth Red Diablo: Normally I’d jump at the opportunity but Rodwell really isn’t a big deal. Sure he will dominate our midfield but so can a lot of other players. Overrated English talent.
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