Oct 10
The Tevez Problem
So far, the biggest loser from the signing of Dimitar Berbatov has been Carlos Tevez. He didn’t get on the pitch at all against Chelsea, failed to gel with the Bulgarian against Notlob, and was relegated to the bench for the games against Aalborg and Blackburn. His industry whilst on the pitch haven’t been rewarded with goals, and at the same time Rooney is returning to something like his best form.
And yet talks are on-going to make his contract permanent by paying MSI (the company who “owns” him) an eye-watering sum, reported to be around £32m. Which is more than we paid for Berba or, for that matter, anyone else. Ever. Spot the disconnect? Doesn’t take a genius.
There are essentially three questions:
1. Has Tevez really become a reserve?
2. Should we retain Tevez on a permanent deal?
3. How much should we pay for him?
Has Tevez really become a reserve?
I would certainly say that Tevez has become the second choice support striker to Berbatov. There’s been a lot of debate about whether Tevez is better than Rooney or vice versa, but to my mind Rooney is a much better fit with Berbatov.
The reason for this is that Berba isn’t a poacher who plays right up top all the time in the Van Nistelrooy mould - as we saw against Blackburn, he likes to pull off and receive the ball to feet with his back to goal. When he does this, Rooney is adept at pushing forward into the spaces behind Berba as an auxiliary target man (think of his goal against Aalborg as an example). Indeed, Rooney played much of last season as the main striker.
Tevez, on the other hand, is almost never to be found on the shoulder of the last man. He is rarely in a one-on-one situations (Rooney is sometimes criticised for missing too many, but at least he gets there), and is mostly to be found surging from deep or from wide. Therefore, when Berbatov drops off, it is unlikely that Tevez will “swap” and take him place as the line leader. We will lack the kind of central, goal-poaching presence in exactly the same way as we did for much of last season, relying instead on intricate moves or pieces of magic from deeper-lying players.
That is not to say there is not a role for Tevez. It would be criminal of Fergie not to try the 4-2-3-1 approach, with Tevez, Rooney and Ronaldo playing behind Berbatov. It might not work - it might be a case of too many cooks - but it surely must be tried. If it does work, and if a role can be created for Tevez to raid from a wider starting position (something he has done in the past for Argentina), then he certainly mustn’t be a reserve. But if it doesn’t work, then unfortunately the answer to the question is “yes, Tevez has become a reserve”.
So, should we sign him?
On the face of it (and not considering price for the moment), this seems like a no-brainer. Even if we can’t accomodate him regularly in a first choice line-up, over the course of the season injury, fatigue and just plain rotation will see him play a good number of games, make important contributions and score a decent number of goals. As an impact sub he would be almost unparalleled.
However, before signing a player who may have to spend more games than he would like on the bench, you need to know more about his temperament. On the one hand, you have the Ole Solskjaers, Darren Fletchers and Wes Browns of this world, who would prefer to be part of a successful squad than a starter for a team winning nothing. But Tevez seems a bit too good to be accepting this sort of role on a long term basis - the teams who coming knocking on his door will be of the Real Madrid calibre, not the Spurs calibre.
Therefore, even if he is initially happy with a role as junior partner in a rotation system, the offers and the stories linking him away from Old Trafford will be relentless. Such rumours, as we found out in the extreme case of Ronaldo over the summer, can be massively unsettling for both the player and the club.
In the long term, if Tevez can’t nail down a regular place in the first team, he’ll leave, even if it is reluctantly. Which begs the question - why sign him in the first place?
How much should we pay for Tevez?
This is the real crux. If we could sign Tevez for two more years at £10m, we should do it without batting an eyelid. But for £32m? For a player who may well end up being a regular substitute? On top of the £5 approx that we have already paid as his loan fee? It’s just madness.
Apart from the sheer ludicrousness of sitting our most expensive player on the bench two matches out of three, we’d have no hope of getting anything like our money back when he moves on. If we sold him on for £20m in 18 months time, we’d be doing well.
So if we do decide to sign him, about £20m is the most that we should be prepared to pay, and we should be looking to get that down to nearer £15m (at the cost of additional payments based on appearances, goals etc). But is there a deal to be done at that price? You would have thought not, since the company that owns his rights will be looking for a much bigger return on their investment, and could certainly get a higher price in the open market. And we could certainly buy a decent support striker who is happy to be part of a rotation system for that amount of money.
I don’t like where my train of thought leads me - where this article is going. I don’t want to let Tevez go, I love the lad, I love his attitude, and he’s scored some crucial goals for us. But pure, cold-eyed business sense dictates that, unless the dream-team Fab Four up front works, we may have to let Red Tev move on.
Penguin, the author of this article, also blogs here.
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- Tottenham 1-1 Man Utd: Preview
- The Defensive Dilemma
Tags: Opinions/Columns
October 10th, 2008 at 13:37
yes Penguin! you’re following my line of thought exactly. Would love to keep him, but not for that money.
October 10th, 2008 at 13:47
Backtrack to Fergie statement before the media bullshit…”We got him on the cheap” rings a bell? Looking at in a business sense: He is an asset to the organisation.
October 10th, 2008 at 13:52
I too feel that £32m for Tevez is ridiculous. I love having him in the squad but I don’t think he is the type of player we NEED as a 3rd striker. His work rate is unprecadented, but for £32m I think we could do a bit better, and that is not a knock on him at all. I guess what I’m trying to say is that with the squad we have, he just doesn’t fit for that price. As Penguin said, at £20m he’d be a bargain, but there is no way we will get him at that price. Especially with Man City rumoured to make a run at him, and I can only imagine the other clubs that would love to swoop for him just to get one over on United. Without the Glazer’s selling the club, I’m afraid this may be his last season as a Red Devil.
October 10th, 2008 at 14:00
are u nuts?…let tevez go?how can you come to this conclusion after seeing the lad work his socks off all last year..and don’t forget that ronaldo might as well leave for real next summer…we’re gonna need him then.
October 10th, 2008 at 14:03
Red Ranter/Penguin,
This is probably a long shot, but have you ever considered making a podcast? You could model it on 606 five live phone-ins.
RR and Penguin could host the cast and us blog readers could ring in to discuss issues.
This would all be easily achievable via Skype and internet radio.
The first episode would probably be crap as it would be highly experimental, but my lord I would love to see it happen (plus I’d love to hear Grognard speak/contribute).
October 10th, 2008 at 14:07
He scored so many vital goals last season. I personally believe tevez, rooney, ronaldo and berba can all fit into the first eleven.
October 10th, 2008 at 14:56
@swapnil: I think what we’ll need is a replacement for Ronaldo, not a striker playing out wide. We’ve tried that before (The Newcastle game for example) and it didn’t work out too great if I remember correctly. I know that it was Rooney out wide and not Tevez, but my point is that we are the one of the biggest clubs in the world, and it seems like all we do is play people out of position. Now so far it’s worked for us, but sometime soon it’s going to bite us on the ass. I appreciate everything that Carlito has done for us, and I would hate to see him go, but from a business sense AND a footballing sense, I’m afraid that we may have to let him walk. 32m is just too much. Unfortunately being sentimental doesn’t win many trophy’s.
October 10th, 2008 at 15:17
perhaps if the author or some of the posters here could read and retaing information, they’d realise what a pointless article this is…
the deal, as has been widely reported is 10m over the 2 year loan deal and THEN a further 20m for a permanent deal. Thats a TOTAL of 30m INCLUDING the loan. The transfer alone is 20m and thats a bargain.
Decision is a no brainer. He WILL be bought
October 10th, 2008 at 15:17
if we lose carlitos its like losing one on a family. he is united caliber and he loves united, seeing him go is unimaginable, and 32 mil is just too much, we could snag up 2 firepacked players in that sum, but with all due respect tevez has earned and deserves to be in united. if we could find a spot for him that works, little less of 32 quid i think will be worth it.
October 10th, 2008 at 15:20
honestly, id rather let slavey leave, even though he is that good, he’ll leave anyway, but tevez has stated he wants to stay with us. that is the heart of a true red devil. but as penguinisimo stated, the problem is he does not fit in the style anymore.
October 10th, 2008 at 15:59
I would pay £32 million for tevez…
He tends to deliver when it matters, so i would argue the money is worth it because it means winning more titles.
I completely ignored my liking of the player when thinking about this
October 10th, 2008 at 16:42
I certainly wouldn’t pay that for him, good player love his work rate, attitude no doubt but £32m is way, wat too much.
October 10th, 2008 at 16:51
@Utd: I don’t see your point, the whole deal is £30 whatever million, which for a player who seems to not figure in SAF first eleven, is too much money.
October 10th, 2008 at 16:55
berba is 28 and at his peak, and thus a short term solution. tevez is 24 and has his best years are ahead of him. besides, we need tevez to be able to compete on all fronts and competitions without wearing ourselves thin. we also need him should berba or rooney get injured.
October 10th, 2008 at 16:57
Mascherano to Pool was 17m +3m for the loan so I think an extra 3m on top of the extra 2m we paid for the loan would be fair.
October 10th, 2008 at 17:04
anyone watching SSN? Aparently Charlton are getting taken over by ‘Dubai based investors’
October 10th, 2008 at 17:28
People need to understand I don’t think there is one United fan who does not want Tevez to stay. He is a superb player no doubts, but United always get taken for a ride by other clubs, because Fergie is like a Mounty and always gets his man regardless of how much.
In hunble view this must stop, Carlos wants to paly for us, know one else, we have the upper hand for once and need to use it. David Gill needs to neg a transfer for a chance rather than cave in, we have paid £10m already, offer another £10m and that is to me his value.
October 10th, 2008 at 17:30
i think people are getting a little carried away by berbatov?…tevez i believe is a striker of equal caliber as rooney and berba who btw lest we all forget is prone to mood swings and such…and we aren’t even free flowing as we were last year….32 million for a striker of his caliber and who is loyal and willong to stay with us another 6 years at his peak is not a bad deal…
October 10th, 2008 at 17:49
with tevez, nothing is a bad deal.
October 10th, 2008 at 17:52
@Liam: charlton athletic?!
October 10th, 2008 at 18:06
@Liam: Mascherano is in the first 11
October 10th, 2008 at 18:06
@Devilinho: hey i did my coursework on the glazer take over of manchester united last year, (i got an A, my examiner must have been a red
) if you would like i could upload it somewhere and send you the link to read it, it assess the impact of the takeover, what it has done, and how it might affect united in the future along with it’s stakeholders.
Grognard: the link in post 51 sums it all up i suppose. Bolton has one of the brightest prospects to come in england in a while, yet it is the 2 “richest” clubs are the ones who are battling to sign him, its a joke. what is even more of a disgrace is what football has become to the extent players no longer feel patriotic to play games money has taken over pride and there seems no end to it, long gone are the days of what a club has won, or it’s heritage to manifest into a global monster of what it is worth. I remember reading and article once that said fans now care more about how much it is worth than what it has done, salaries are a barometer of how good a player was, now zico during his prime would have earned less than lets say some back up midfielder, with todays logic, that back up is better than zico in his prime, or any other legend who made their name pre bosman. Contracts are inflated, as i elated as i was when united signed anderson i was disgusted at the price he was bought for, £21 million for an unproven 18 year old no matter how much of a talent they possess unless they are called Edison Arantes do Nascimento (pele to those who don’t know). Money is the new equalizer not tactics or farm system its how much money you have, if you don’t believe me look at the 3 promoted teams, west brom, Stoke and Hull, they were promoted in that order, however the 3rd place team got the most money because of a play-offs due to media exposure, no hull is doing well which more than i can say for stoke or west brom because they have more money, now does this seem fair, that hull city who were promoted got more capital because of a play-off than the actual champion, if i was a manager of a championship i would aim for the play-offs rather than win the league because of the extra money what’s even worse, hull got more money than united did for winning the Champions League, so you’re saying the play off is better than Europe’s biggest club competiton. you’re having a laugh it’s things like these such as over inflated player prices and un even win bonuses are what is ruining football as well as the points grognard stated.
In terms of financial backing football is a business and players are assets so limit how much teams pay for those assets and how much overheads those assets will cost , a way to even stakes is not by imposing a wage cap but a structure; To elaborate, a system that allows all and i mean ALL clubs to pay certain players, for example:
15-19 year olds- let say these are young and unproven talents, the most a club can ask to pay them is £5m
20-24 years olds-£10m max since they are a bit older and more mature
25-30- these are when players are in their prime so £30m max for the best of players
30+- may be past it, but useful £15m max
now what this does get rid of over price players and allow smaller clubs to buy some players. on the other hand it negates the ability of small clubs to maximise their profits on their young stars, so porto will not be able to get £21m for one of their youngsters, which may limit their growth. Now i admit this is flawed, however it took me 5 minutes to come up with this structure and i’m sure the delegates over there at fifa and uefa can come up with one better than this. Also i want to see one for wage, i have a gut feeling in 5-10 years in the paper i will be reading
10 year old signs for Manchester united for £20m for £50k per week
it scares me football will develop into that and it probably will unless something is done, if their is a wage structure no longer will players want to leave smaller teams because they can get more money at another. What happened to the days of when players would stick at a poor club to build itself a reputation, i mean pele rejected madrid to stay at santos because it was the club he loved, and he only got lured by money when he got too old. YOu mean to tell me robinho is at man city because he loves the club not because he gets £1m a month? If so then you are as blind as those buffoons at running the show
October 10th, 2008 at 18:25
Quick point
Someone up top said its 30m regardless of whether 10m was for the loan. Look at it this way:
that 10m over 2 yrs is probably a payment indirectly for his wages only which we would pay in any case ig we bought him back when we loaned him. The TRANSFER FEE is 20m. Thats it
October 10th, 2008 at 18:48
Tev is worth as much as 2 Berbatovs (his age 24 comp to 28 of Bulgarian, his attitude and is big match monster).
Nuff said.
October 10th, 2008 at 18:53
I love Tevez and would love to keep him but no player on the planet is worth that kind of money as a reserve. During the off season I was the one that kept saying that when and if Berbatov or Huntelaar are bought, it would be Tevez who sees himself on the bench. For a couple of reasons. First off, he is not as good a Berbatov and he arguably isn’t as good as Rooney when both players are in form. My problem with Tevez and his price tag has always been that he doesn’t score enough goals or create enough goal scoring chances for himself as a forward. He’s a quick and nifty little player but I’m sorry, he’s not a skilled on the ball nor does he have the vision and passing ability of Rooney. His finishing is also sporadic and quite often he makes the wrong decision. His work ethic and desire is second to none and that is why so many love him but is that what United need right now? What they need most is a general in the center of midfield who can attack and we need a poacher like Ole to come off the bench and get us a tying or go ahead goal. There are times when Tevez can be that goal getter but he is not dependable enough in that part of his game. And still you have to love the player for his attitude and work ethic. But no reserve or part time starter is worth 32 million or whatever they are thinking of paying him.
I’m starting to think that the United brain trust is also starting to realize that with Tevez they have a player that clearly is valuable but incredibly overpriced. They need to seriously consider whether he is worth making that kind of monetary commitment and therefore I think they are intentionally procrastinating in order to see how he reacts to his new role and what he is able to bring to the team from the bench and the occasional start. There thinking is that Campbell or Welbeck may be far cheaper alternatives for that role next year and the money spent on Tevez could go towards a midfielder, winger and most importantly to the Glazer’s their debt. So no, Tevez is not worth that kind of money in my opinion. A good little player but a player who is worth 18 million a year, not over 30. Spend half and get a winger if Nani doesn’t cut the mustard or buy that CDM (if Hargo doesn’t recover) or AMF to replace Scholes. I say by a fantastic left winger like David Silva or Alex Sanchez or Marko Marin. Or break the bank and buy Marco Senna for our DMF. I’m willing to give Campbell, Welbeck or Manucho the job to battle for two striker positions on the bench. Sorry to Tevez because I admire his heart and his passion and desire. But really, did he ever have a chance to displace Fergie’s boy Rooney? And we knew that he would not be sitting down the Count. So unless Gill surprises us all or Tevez surprises us all and accepts the role he’s given, then expect Tevez to go to Spain next summer or go back to his beloved Boca bitter and with the feeling of betrayal in his heart. Such is the world of professional football. But in the end, he has only himself and his agent to blame because of the money he is asking for. Unrealistic in his situation.
So in the end I am going to be proven right yet once again.
October 10th, 2008 at 18:54
No its not 32 million off the bat. The 32 million is the price which includes what we’ve payed per year for him during his loan, 5 million per year which amounts to 10 million over 2 years then plus the 22 mil to buy him outright.
October 10th, 2008 at 18:57
@benjd: Truthfully the Grognard should have his own podcast because he does have a big mouth and he is controversial. To those of you who know who I am talking about I would say that I would be football’s version of Rush Limbaugh. Some love him and many hate his guts.
And RR seems far too busy to get involved with that kind of stuff. He’s one busy fellow these days.
October 10th, 2008 at 19:00
@Utd: But will he want to be bought if he realizes he is destined for the bench? And does United really want to pay that money knowing they have three other strikers who are all promising and they could use that money elsewhere to fill a few holes?
October 10th, 2008 at 19:09
@phoenix red: @Stephen: @Wheezy: I second all the posts! I’ve been accused of being a Tevez basher for stating more or less the same things except perhaps I was perhaps a bit too vehement
Great article again Penguin, Sir!
October 10th, 2008 at 19:27
hey, you know what else ‘doesn’t take a genius’? seeing that tevez is a workhorse and a champion, two things you a) you cant put a price tag on, and b) are rare in the epl. he has won at nearly every level imaginable and, quite simply, saved our ass last season. yes, he literally saved us with some clutch late goals. while 32mil may be inflated, i think it is money well spent especially considering the injuries berbsy-poo and baldy are sure to pick up throughout the season and the flight risk potential of our favorite iberian metrosexual. also, lest we forget that last season, even without berbsy-poo, tevez did not start in certain matches when tactics dictated a stronger midfield lineup or greater width. still, he came on, worked his tail off, and put in game changing and championship winning performances. regardless of your “pure, cold-eyed business” sense, it’s not your money being spent penguin man. in your last two posts, however, you have thoroughly revealed yourself to be an ungrateful tevez hater. plus, his cumbia villera band gives our squad much more street cred than rio’s efforts in hip-hop ever will.
October 10th, 2008 at 19:36
£32m - let’s see, what players can a team buy with that kind of money?
Benzema - add £5-7m and me thinks he’s in the bag. Shame he wouldn’t cosider playing for us.
David Silva - easily, me thinks we could get him as low as £20m. The only plausible replacement for Ronnie if he leaves (Bayern won’t sell Ribery and Nani plays better on the left).
Aiden McGeady - ok I’m a sucker for his trademark flick dribble. And he’s hinted that sooner or later he might want to step up a level. 7 goals and 19 assists can’t lie can they? [And for those quick to slate the SPL, I have only two words - Henrik Larsson]
@Utd: and before you ask, I’m doing this only for the form
October 10th, 2008 at 19:49
Oh, and how good is Matty James? Everytime I drop by Manunitedyouth it seems that he’s MOTM when he’s playing.
If he’s really as good as Nickogs reckons, we might not need a replacement for Hargo. What with Possebon also in the wings..
Kudos also too for the Kiko MAcheda’s performances. He’s starting to look very good this boy - at least from what I hear…
Anyone with MUTV can give us a bit more info about Macheda and James, I mean other than Kiko being a goalscorer and James an midfield enforcer…
What’s their movement like? How fast are they? Can they manage the odd dribble? Is their passing closer to Fletcher or Carrick?
CraigMC? Dan(u)ol?
As anyone can see, I’m really excited by these bunch of kids.
October 10th, 2008 at 19:51
@Nico QB: with Benzema, therin lies the same tevez conondrum… will we pay that kind of money for a striker that is going to be rotated? Will he come from Lyon (champions in their own right) and agree to sit on our Bench? Although he is more of a Rooney/berba type and will fit in either’s role, he will still be subject to the rotation and might not be too happy about it. No doubt I would love the guy, but as we have gotten Berba, along with rooney and tevez, I really don’t see him as a financially-sensible option.
I concur with the back-up winger proposal. We need extra wingers now Giggs is an ‘AMF’ and we have just Park, Nani and Ronnie left. What if one of them got injured? Will it not be ideal to get a young and precocious winger that can be an understudy like Nani was last season; use that time to acclimatise to the United way while also stepping in when injury hits or match sharpness is needed for the 1st teamers?
I suggest Gill and Fergie play hard ball with tevez’ owners; the lad wants to play here, we have a good relationship with them, we finally have an upper hand in a major transfer, use it!! I see no reason why we can’t just pay the extra 10m -15m and call it £20-£25mil in total for Tevez. Let’s face it, that is probably what they will have gotten from other top clubs!! If we are held to ransom with this transfer, then somebody in our negotiations team has to be held responsible!!
October 10th, 2008 at 20:07
@Nico QB: Our kids are really looking bright, but like I pointed out in my post above, we have no genuine/quality wingers in our academy/reserves. If we had one, then I would absolutely reject any more big name/foreign/established purchases. We have an exciting bunch; Macheda, Welbeck, Petrucci, Possebon, Cleverley, The twins, Cathcart, Amos, plus our ‘young, but a bit older’ bunch; Nani, Foster, Evans, Simpson, Campbell and Ando. Notice no winger in that list, we need one to join those kids and develop into a United legend. For now, we have almost every important position covered apart from that and as soon as we can get one, we will be looking very good indeed.
October 10th, 2008 at 20:09
@Gabriel: Agree about your assessment of Benzema, but I was just beng rethorical, just showing what kind of player would probably justify the fee.
Gill and Fergie should indeed play hard ball, but when was the last time we actually came on top of negotiations, financially speaking? Most of the time we gt our player, but we are played for fools.
So actually who is the villain is this story? Is it that Joorabchian guy?
October 10th, 2008 at 20:18
@Nico QB: yeah, I know.. was just playing devil’s advocate there
I suggest we test the waters with Tevez on how he reacts to some bench time and we’ll know if we can take that plunge. Berba and Rooney should be able to take it, but that’s because they know they are almost always gonna be 1st choice, however Tevez still has to fight for his place and it will be interesting to see how he behaves in this situation. He is young and can move somewhere else, so we’ll just have to wait and see if he chooses that option. If he does, it will be very sad, but we do have options ourselves; Macheda, Petrucci, Welbeck, Campbell, Manucho.. it’s almost too much options and potential 
October 10th, 2008 at 20:31
http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid={F9E570E6-407E-44BC-800F-4A3110258114}&newsid=6620228
Viva Wayne Rooney
Viva Wayne Rooney
Viva Wayne Rooney
With Berba He’s gonna score!
The Net’s gonna go Sore!
Viva Wayne Rooney
He’s gonna Fuck them all
He’s gonna outscore them all
Viva Wayne Rooney!
October 10th, 2008 at 20:51
Tevez is too good to let go. Chelsea and Liverpool would gladly buy Tevez.
October 10th, 2008 at 21:04
@Grognard
Its not as if fergie plans to bench him for EVERY game. Hell, whats the odds rroney and berbatov stay fit the entire season? So he’ll probably still start about 30 games this season given we’ll probably play close to 60
October 10th, 2008 at 21:15
Story in the telegraph today:
Manchester United’s Dimitar Berbatov reveals desire to play in Italy
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/manutd/3164818/Manchester-Uniteds-Dimitar-Berbatov-reveals-desire-to-play-in-Italy-Football.html
October 10th, 2008 at 21:31
@Utd: I never said that. I said that he would naturally get the odd start but that he had become the third choice up front. Of course Rooney and Berbatov will need rest and injuries do happen. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that no 3rd striker is worth over 30 million. Either play him or let him go.
October 10th, 2008 at 21:43
wow, has it really gotten to this, we are now putting our hearts before our head.
if it’s a choice between who should partner the berb, without a doubt it should be tevez.
1. he is a better finisher
2. he is not afraid to shoot accurately and powerfully from afar, c’mon when was the last time rooney scored with a venomous shot from outside the box 18
3. he can create chances from deep. not as muchas wazza but he can do his bit.
4. he is prepared to run himself into the ground for the team, like wazza
5. he has not even been given a fair chance so far this season to link up with the berb. the did well for the goal against the shitty pool!
the only reason why rooney starts, is because he is english,
coming into the the season tevez had better form, waS OUR BEST PLAYER AGAINST POMPY and for those who say he does not work well with the berb, i remind of our goal against liverpool.
for whatever reason you give rooney is a poor finisher.
typical fergie
pls united fans call a spade a spade. and if we can afford to pay 30odd millon for a striker who played major parts i our double winning season, why the hell not, the berb is not worth 30 mill, rooney over the past couple of seasons is not worth 30 mill, players generally now are overpriced, deal with it!!! GENERALLY WE TEND TO PAYB ABOUT 5 MILL MORE THAN W ESHOULD
we are the most deluded ungrateful fans in the world, give tevez a chance.
October 10th, 2008 at 21:56
With the purchase of Berbatov it puts us in a decent position with Tevez. We need to put MSI to the sword and get a decent price on this.
I think Tevez can solve the winger problem with his wide movement if he can develop a cross, much like Ole did to Beckham.
The Emergence of Evans and Rafael have shored up CB and RB positions. I think all we need to see is some Fabio action and assess the left back youngster role.
I want to see Manucho play more reserve games. Is he gonna get any games during the international break?
October 10th, 2008 at 22:00
@bildani: I read the artcle. It really looks a fantastic piece of researched journalism, complete with statement of intent from the Count himself.
October 10th, 2008 at 22:34
@Gabriel: I think that playing the twins on the wing could work. They (especially Fabio from what I hear) run all over the place and the main criticism of Rafael has been his defensive positioning. They have the skills to make good wingers and wouldnt have to worry so much about defense (any excuse for Fabio to play, I can’t wait for him to light it up)
October 10th, 2008 at 22:35
@oneunited: easy man, I believe most fans here are just concerned about the price, especially as we have an upper hand in this dealing. Everyone here wants Tevez to stay, but are just calling for a reasonable price as everything is in our favour this time. Nobody appreciated paying £30mil for either berba or rooney and if we have a chance to prevent a repeat of that absurd pricing, why shouldn’t we? If you could prevent paying that much for any player, wouldn’t you give it a go?
I, and I believe most of the fans here, love Tevez. He is United material thru and thru and we will love nothing more than for him to secure his immediate future with us, preferably at a reasonable price.
October 10th, 2008 at 22:41
@oneunited
very relevant points. I think tevez probably has some reason to be frsutrated even though he wont show it. he was undoubtedly our best player for the first month but rooney is clearly favoured in some ways by fergie over tevez irrespective of form. dropping rooney now of course is unjustified because he’s finally got his act together and starting to perform where should be
October 10th, 2008 at 22:45
@Liam: It’s all good if they can become wingers, but i would rather have a natural winger who was educated and developed from a young age playing that ‘winger’ role or something similar(e.g CF). Wingers are usually brought up playing as such as the talents they require for that position are acquired at an early stage of their development.
Fabio has already notched two goals in the reserves and it’s a shame he’s out injured as he could have been featuring as much as his brother has for us. However, good things come to those who wait, and I’m sure when Fabio gets his chance, it’ll be a whirlwind of a performance.
October 10th, 2008 at 23:40
Lets think that all are in their best possible form. Rooney is better than Berbatov. Berbatov is better than Tevez. That leaves Tevez out. But Rooney is injury prone and Berba has just gotten so many games lately cause he needs to learn how we play and get some match fitness. Rooney is on a goal scoring run and he cant be left out right now! Tevez will get more starts during the season, the only reason he hasnt played so many games until now is because he is the only striker we have that got a real pre-season. Rooney was sick and Berba didnt want to play. Now Berba needs games and to learn how this wonderful team works, Rooney is on a goalscoring run so its difficult to leave anyone out! We have to buy Tevez, I trust Gill and Fergie. They wont let this happen. After that latest transfer deadline we had, I believe anything can happen when it comes to transfers. When City bid for Villa, Berba, Gomez and buy Robinho, then I believe we can get Tevez for £500,000.
Just kidding of cource, but we have to buy him cause he is a part og the family. Without him we lose a big part of our team. He probably wont cost 32 mill, its just a number the papers have written because they want headlines and the number is because its his kit number! 
October 11th, 2008 at 0:03
@Grognard: Groggy, check this article out, it really presents another view to the Foreign investment(ownership) debate. Tell me what you think…
October 11th, 2008 at 2:50
@Gabriel: Interesting article but he seems to confused with his perspective. The bottom line is he doesn’t see foreign ownership as a bad thing where I do. But only because it is being allowed to get away with bloody murder. So there in hand lyes the problem. The FA, FIFA and UEFA are allowing too much skulduggery to go on unpunished. Too much money and dirty dealings and tapping up of players etc etc. It needs to stop and only the governing bodies of the game can do this. But then again, they can only do it with the help of the EU. Sports leagues cannot survive with aright wing capitalist mentality. Their needs to be a solid socialist structure in order to keep the competition fair and balanced. Until the game wakes up to that we will continue to see the demise and destruction of the game and lesser teams. We are headed for a European Super League. It is inevitable. A league of 20 teams from Europe with deep pockets. And that for me would be a disgrace and a crying shame. Money and wealth be damned. What happened to kicking the ball around for sport?
October 11th, 2008 at 6:55
Here are my answer to the questions posed in the article:
1. No. He will be part of rotation system.
2. Absolutely. Ne is essential to our current success.
3. 25 million.
October 11th, 2008 at 9:18
@RedDevilEddy: good points eddy, tev will have his share of playing time, not just now since we are blending the count in. he will not be benched every game, as i have said he will be part of the rotation. fergie wont just let one of his best players leave, fergi has a plan, he bought berbs coz he wants 4 strikers in rotation. and tevez is one of those strikers.
October 11th, 2008 at 10:37
wasn’t everyone rubbing their hands with glee the period just before tevez was signed?
tevez is a winner. he is technical. he has flair. he has workrate
i partially agree with a few of the comments above claiming tevez was better than rooney
both are not defensive liabilities i.e. ronaldo & berbatov
yes, tevez is probably a better finisher, but 2bh both waste chances aplenty. the finishing standard we expect is too high; not everyone can be as ruthless as ronaldo/ rvn.
i actually feel tevez is a better dribbler; does anyone else have that feeling?
two things going for rooney are that he is english + he is an assist king.
yes, rooney does get into those “scoring” positions more often (but that just makes us cringe when he misses)
anyway, my point is: love them both!!!
i would straight swap him for sergio aguero, coz the latter is younger and therefore more expensive. no other way i let our tevez leave.
October 11th, 2008 at 11:15
Don’t forget that Ronaldo isn’t likely to stay much longer and so that would allow Berbatov, Rooney and Tevez to play together more in the future, so for that reason I say keep him.
October 11th, 2008 at 14:43
@Grognard: I think he is criticising Blatter for homogenising Forign investment in Football. His point is that not all of them are bad, take Aston Villa’s chairman for example, Randy Lerner; he seems to be running a steady ship, better than Ken Bates (an English man) did for Leeds!! Football is a business, a global one too and investors are always seeking to invest in businesses, foreign or local. Why is the fact that Foreign investors are bad, but local investors are good? Mike Ashley of Newcastle, anyone?
Secondly, they say the Money input is creating an unfair playing field.. well i don’t think that is the case. First, lets’s examine the PL.. before all this money came in, the only clubs that had any serious dominance were ManUtd and Arsenal, now with this foreign money, Chelsea, Manutd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Aston Villa, Man city, Tottenham, West ham among many can all have a realistic shot or at least be more competitive in the player market and hence on the pitch. If that’s not levelling it a bit, then I don’t know what is. This ‘new’ money has helped a lot of averagely financed club compete in the transfer market, hence increase their perfromance, profile and hence increase their commercial revenue, be it thru Tickets, shirts or tv rights. You might say it’s still the same top four, and no other team has a chance, but these top four already had the foundation’s for dominace set in place; they were already up there when the ‘new’ money came in. Chelsea were already in the top four when the investments came in, infact they were already in the CL.
Let’s look at other leagues for example, Lyon has won the french title 7 years in a row now, how is that a fair playing field. Real and barca have been switching the title btw each other for years; with only Valencia interrupting that flow (and yes, you guessed it, because they were invested in by a millionaire). Inter, Juve and co the same. Leagues from smaller countries are only allowed one participant in the CL, and that participant gets over £10mil each year just for that; with that kind of money, which team do you think will win that country’s league nxt year? Talk about stones… glass houses!!
European teams have been run by millionaires for a long time; inter milan, ac milan, barcelona, real etc in the process creating unfair playing fields and unrivalled dominance, but just because those millionaires were homegrown, it was alright!! The business world is global now and with the success and lure of the PL, foreign investment is expected. That is not to say a proper fit persons test should not be in place, but for both foreign and local investors, which will include such restrictions, like, borrowing against your assets to buy a club, like the Glazers did!!
I do understand that the ‘new’ money is making player prices and wages skyrocket, but the best way to derail that is to introduce salary caps and transfer limits, not limit investment in lesser club so as not to disturb the already established status quo of top teams. If not for ‘new’ money, will chelsea, valencia among others have been able to reach the heights they have today?
Those imbeciles at the Helms of FIFA and UEFA are the ones that are confused about their perspectives, instead of them to worry about how they can regulate these investments that are definitely raising the profile and competitiveness of the game, they are trying to banish it alltogether and in the process protect the status quo of teams already at the top, who are no doubt lining their pockets.
October 11th, 2008 at 16:54
does anyone have a link for the england game?!?
October 11th, 2008 at 16:57
@Grognard:you know the idea of a similar system to what major league baseball has is not a bad proposition, team can get a return on some of their youth players and it will stop the creation of young mercenaries who want to leave for fortune.On the other hand the draft idea would not work since football is played on a global level it is impossible to have a system that would benefit every team in england let alone euro or the world.
Tevez for £32m seems a little too much, however the guy can play football is an incredible talent and hard working which is rare to find these days, the only qualm i have with tevez is he is argentinian and being a canarinha its amazing that i support the dude
i would like to bring him back because the squad depth would be immense with him
October 11th, 2008 at 17:27
rooney finally shaved that shit hair of his off
October 11th, 2008 at 17:56
Hallelujah! Carrick and Hargo back!
October 11th, 2008 at 18:47
@Gabriel: Very good and well thought out points. I totally agree that one of the big cures for the type of ownership in the games should be considered only after rigid and strict fit persons tests to properly evaluate the prospective owners intentions, capabilities and assets before allowing them to buy a club in the league. And I am not talking just the EPL. I mean all leagues in Europe need to have strict measures when allowing individuals to purchase teams. They need to have more than enough of their OWN money and they need to show why they want to purchase a club and what their plans for the future are.
I disagree about the fact you lumped Spurs, Villa and West Ham into the group with the big four and now Man City. Sorry but those teams are not in the same category and they aren’t even close. They are sellers and not buyers. Spurs had to sell the heart of their club in order to buy other players. West Ham haven’t bought a worthy player honestly in years. Remember, Mascherano and Tevez were shady deals. Villa spends money and buys some talent but doesn’t really break the bank to do it. To their credit though, they don’t try to be other team’s bitch either (ask Liverpool).
Nope, there is a big difference between what I see as really the big two and everyone else. I am bold enough to say that right now there are two major economic forces in England and United are not one of them. Right now the two most financially powerful teams are Chelsea and Man City.
Yesterday Abramovich lost 12 billion dollars on his other investments due to the market crashing in Russia. And still, that’s a drop in the bucket for him. Can anyone imagine that kind of wealth? His oil wealth will sustain any kind of losses in other ventures by far. United, Arsenal and Liverpool do not have that kind of ownership. Liverpool and United are massively in debt as is Arsenal as they try to pay of their stadium. When was the last time Arsenal spent serious money on a player? No, the economic pinch is affecting more teams than we all think. And there just aren’t enough oil billionaires to go around. Rather than have a few oil billionaires skew everything out of perspective and rather than having several owners leverage themselves with hefty loans, these leagues need to become more conservative in their way of thinking. Only allow owners who have the capacity to run a club but who don’t have delusions of grandeur. Take the pressure off them to have to compete beyond their means by changing the rules for qualifying for Europe and stop rewarding teams who make it in Europe with more money than they deserve. And that counts for all countries in Europe. Right now a team making it in Europe is a punishment for every other team that doesn’t make it. How is that right?
Like I have said before, the only fix for this problem is a socialist one started by FA and with the blessing of the EU. once they may make the first move, the rest of the world will realign accordingly. Salary and transfer caps will take away a lot of the purchasing power of big clubs and allow them to spend on their marketing and building their farm system and scouting. Let them find and develop players the old fashioned way. In England, the territorial boundaries need to be eliminated. In a socialist order, it’s a free for all and let the most organized and most efficient teams succeed based on their infrastructure. But this does not have to depend on money. Measures will be in place and restrictions to keep big teams within check. Especially when it comes to how much is spent and where the money is spent within a country. We can’t have Chelsea buying every great young prospect in England.
Teams working under debt has got to stop. I don’t give a rats ass if the Glazer’s feel they can handle it. Trust me, they have lost their shirts in the market this past month and AIG’s advertising deal looks certain to end too because of their need to cut back costs. Bottom line, if you don’t have the personal wealth to buy a club, you are not eligible. Enough with the pretenders and market sleazbags who manipulate banks and other investors in order to tweak their ego’s. Checks and balances. A simple accounting term, but now more necessary than ever.
Finally, the nature and effect of the Champions League needs to be changed. The system needs to be overhauled and the motivation for entering it should be for silverware, not for millions of pounds. It used to be that the European Cup was all about prestige and pride. Now it’s about making money and seeing how far you can go for the sake of the money. I’m sorry but I for one find it a little sick and grotesque that a fourth place club from our domestic league can win the CL. It’s just not right but FIFA and UEFA don’t care. They have sold the integrity of the game down the river for decades now and have flushed ethics and fair play down the toilet also. The Champions League is and should be only the champions of a league participating in that tournament. not pretenders to the throne. It’s a travesty and an outrage. For the second place to fourth place teams and other adequate runnersup throughout Europe, create a UEFA tournament for them that strokes their competitive and financial needs and motivations while maintaining a semblance of integrity and restraint.
FIFA and UEFA have got to stop meddling in the worst ways and they have to stop acting like high priced whores. They need to start acting responsibly and stop feeling their goal is to create tournaments with 200 teams involved. The World Cup should not be more than 24 teams, the Euros are fine with 16 the CL should only involve the champions of Europe and the EUFA Cup should be structured to allow more teams and one early knockout round to get rid of pretenders and minnows. I am truly sick and tired of capitalism melding with democracy to create hypocrisy in football. It’s time for an Obama type to take the reigns and save the game. Change and reform is greatly needed. Not richer owners with their greedy and sleazy agendas. Someone, please save the game I love from itself. It’s amazing but so many people in high places JUST DON’T GET IT.
October 11th, 2008 at 19:10
@Mr.Muhozi: You don’t have to have a global draft. It can be local only. However I use the National Hockey League as an example where the draft can be global. Almost half of the players playing in the NHL today are from Europe. The vast majority of them were drafted. How does that work you may ask? The bottom line is that a player from Sweden can be drafted by the New York Rangers. What that means is that the Rangers own that player’s rights within the NHL. If that player does not want to come and play in the NHL, he doesn’t have to. He can choose to stay and play for his Swedish side. However, should the lure and ambition of playing in the greatest hockey league in the world stoke his fire, then he must report and negotiate a contract with the NY Rangers.
This same system could be used for football. For example every year their is a draft. Players have to be 18 or over to qualify for the draft. Enough of this exploiting 13 and 14 year olds. Let them grow up like normal kids and enter the draft when they are more mature. In this system United could use their pick to draft Rafel Da Silva, Possebon, Aaron Ramsey etc. It’s all depending on their scouting force and of course their position. As they are first place team, they would get the last pick. But the world has much to choose from. Now this system would not stop a similar draft from happening in Spain, Italy, Germany etc. That’s where an individual team’s ability to persuade a player to sign with them is important. In a socialist climate where there is a cap on spending, this isn’t such an undertaking. And one rule I would include is that domestic teams have first choice over domestic players. This is just a rough drawing of my plan but I hope you get the jest of it.
The other measure that would control this draft and make it much more domestic in nature is a limit of foreigners allowed in one country. Before RR and others start crying bloody murder and telling me it is impossible I say here me out first. This measure can only be done with two parties being committed to it. FIFA, who already are committed to this and then they need to persuade the European Union to play with labor laws in order to categorize football as a distinct society and allow this form of socialist reform to take place. After all, we are talking about millionaires here, not plumbers and line cooks. A well put together proposal that uses North American sport as a fine example of distinct societies that operate in this manner even though they operate within countries that are right wing in their capitalist tendencies, is essential. The problem is nothing will get done if ass clowns and muppets like Sepp Blatter and Michel Platini run the European and world game. Enough already. These clowns need to be lined up on a wall and pissed on. They are a disgrace and they have sold the game out for their own personal greed and ambitions. If only people like Pele had the business and organizational intellect to run the game. That is why I feel the best man for the job is the clear minded and highly intelligent Franz Beckenbauer.
October 11th, 2008 at 19:13
baldooney bags a brace
now dont break your foot…
the white pele is back hahaha
October 11th, 2008 at 19:21
For all the Rooney doubters - more evidence that he’s back to his best - 5 goals in his last 4 matches!
The Roon is on Fire!
About the England match, I thought SWP and A.Cole were woeful today. Becks played well for the 10min he was on.
October 11th, 2008 at 19:55
@Grognard: Mate, it seems we are resonating at similar frequencies here. I say, if you can’t fight it, work with it… that’s what the powers at be in Football’s hierarchy must do. Football clubs are global businesses in their own rights, as in they appeal and gain from various countries, races and people. Businesses are meant to be bought, run and sold, so Football clubs are eligible for all these. However, here is where FIFA and UEFA can set an agenda; any person interested in investing or purchasing a football club must go through a rigorous fit and proper person’s test and if intentions are to purchase, must prove they have substantial liquid cash, not borrowed money with repayments mortgaged on the acquired club’s asset. That will be one problem solved as you would not have people like the Glazers or Thaksin Shinawatra in the picture, but people like Randy Lerner. Clubs will only stand to benefit from these kind of owners.
Secondly, the Wages and transfer debacle. Simple solution, introduce Salary and wage caps. It’s as simple as that. If caps are introduced, then the acquisition of players will be a bit fairer to lesser clubs and evenly spread out as most clubs will be offering similar amounts and players actually decide their destinations based on footballing, club potential or club historical reasons.
All these talk about Foreign ownership is just a smokescreen for FIFA and UEFA’s bigwigs incompetence or rather their corruptness. It is obvious that employment and business laws cannot allow for a totalitarian form of governance over football clubs, so why not set up regulations for every club registered under footballing’s governing body (FIFA) that regulates these factors that they complain so much about? Is it not possible to introduce salary caps and fit and proper persons tests? Instead, they want to banish all investment in the game, be it good or bad.
Plenty clubs have been under wealthy ownership in the past and they weren’t any questions asked before. Why didn’t they look to regulate the situation then before it got out of control. Like Blatter said, the PL is a phenomenon and with that lure, the investors, be it foreign or local will come streaming in. If FIFA, the English FA, or UEFA were competent, they will have prevented the bad seeds from entering the game. The PL has done wonders for footballing profile in the world the past few years and this could not have been possible without investment. Yet Blatter blasts this investment, using the fact that it is mainly foreign as his arrowhead. How is local ownership any better than foreign? maybe it’s because the other wealthy clubs in mainland Europe who have been lining his pockets are all locally owned, so they escape any retribution or accusations.
Mate, the real problems and solutions are clear for all to see, yet Blatter and his associates choose to fight an unjust and ill-directed battle at England. How can we be the sole harbingers of death to the Footballing world when we have done so much to raise it’s profile the world over? We have made some mistakes along the way, but instead of trying to bring down that which has helped the game so much, why not try and find a way to fix it?
Btw, rooney’s on form, two more goals to his name and a shaven head. Also hargo and carrick are looking good for our nxt match, can’t wait!!!
October 11th, 2008 at 20:20
Mr. Baldy aka The Roon just scored two goals! And Rio scored one too! He celebrated like a man possessed! United ruling the England Place as well!
And to all Rooney haters and lovers!
Ahm ahm!
Viva Wayne Rooney
Viva Wayne Rooney
Viva Wayne Rooney
With Berba He’s gonna score!
The Net’s gonna go Sore!
Viva Wayne Rooney
He’s gonna Fuck them all
He’s gonna outscore them all
Viva Wayne Rooney!
October 11th, 2008 at 20:44
WOW! It’s just the end of the first half but my German machine is really laying a licking on poor Russia. I haven’t seen a German team move and pass with such pace and imagination in quite a while. I thought the Russians had changed jerseys with them. Actually, Germany were playing very much the way Zenit play. The movement off the ball has been fantastic. 2-0 could easily have been 4-0 or 5-0 and Russia is a great side. Where was this from Germany when they played Spain? Damn!
As for England, they beat a true minnow and should have even done more considering they were asleep at the wheel for the first half. Good to see the Roon scoring again but frankly, he should be scoring against crappy opponents. My question however is when is Capello going to show courage and finally put a rest to this Lampard-Gerrard midfield combination. Despite the second half resurgence once they moved to 4-4-2 from the ineffective 4-3-3 it’s clear that they do not work well together. It’s time to make a tough decision Fabio.
October 11th, 2008 at 21:04
@Grognard: A slight nitpick: Abramovich is worth about 23.5 billion dollars. Losing 12 billion is half his wealth. Dunno how that translates as a drop in the bucket. Yes, the remaining 12 billion is still sizeable, but I’m sure anyone will be more than irritated at the loss of half ones’ wealth.
Just a minor nitpick though, but I do get your drift.
October 11th, 2008 at 21:15
@Red Ranter: Make those losses of 20 million dollars per Bloomberg’s original article. The figures excludes Abramovich’s property, cash and cash equivalent holdings, so I’m pretty sure he isn’t exactly in poverty, but that is a significant chunk of his wealth gone.
October 11th, 2008 at 21:59
@Red Ranter: My mistake. He lost 12 Million. I was so used to talking in billions that I made the error. And he is worth more than 23 billion. He has a lot of wealth tied up in areas. I read last month that his estimated net worth is over 100 billion so the guy is not poor. Yet he is poor compared to the Man City Consortium or the Prince of Dubai.
October 11th, 2008 at 22:06
Russia really made a game of it in the second half. Germany laid an egg and Russia really came at them in that great style of theirs. One thing Germany gained from this game besides 3 points is they definitely found their new superstar goalkeeper for the future. Rene Adler was absolutely fantastic. 10 big saves in the game and the man of the match. Now Adler is a signing I’d like to see by United. Either him or Manuel Neuer. Young German keepers, tall, strong, great distributors of the ball and tremendous shot stoppers. Above all, they take command of the are on crosses and show great positioning. Podolski also did look great today.
October 11th, 2008 at 22:15
From USA Today;