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Man Utd v Spurs match thread

Didn’t have the soundest of sleep. So I’m in no position to write a preview. But please, do feel free to continue match discussion here so that the previous thread doesn’t go slow.



  1. Red Ranter

    26 April 2009 at 07:46

    Also despite the international nature of this site, a vast majority of the traffic comes in from UK. And there is a lot of assimilation of language that’s more UK based. For example in North America, if someone calls another person a cunt, he’d probably rip him to shreds with a chain saw. In the UK it’s as common as calling someone a fucker.

    Subconsciously, we have been assimilating a lot of UK based terminology in ways the use to call players etc. If it was the MLB/NFL we’d be using terminology and jargon that Americans use. We’ll just have to learn them, that’s all. And there’s no shame in that.

  2. Babyface

    26 April 2009 at 08:07

    People should be a bit fairer on Evra, of late he hasn’t been good I agree, there is no reason why he cannot be criticized for his recent form. A few months ago however, people were discussing him as one of the best left backs in the world (he was playing fantastically well both in defence and attack) and now people want to offload him and get in somebody new, saying he is terrible player etc. Criticize players sure but have a little context and perspective. Evra is a bloody good player

  3. Shreyas

    26 April 2009 at 08:21

    @Grognard: Hey Grog, the term has been here long before lee invented the “World Wide Web” 😉
    Its a very common usage in the UK, and you would expect people to use it.
    Going by your rules, everyone would have to write in United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization every time they wanted to say UNESCO in order to account for the 90% of the fans to know that, ans hence use it, in the same way that people using UNESCO would expect a majority of the people reading the article/write-up containing the abbreviation to know what it stands for. Its all about context.
    I would agree with you if The Economist used ABU while talking about United’s finances, but at an United site, I don’t see you point.
    You can always ask and find out what it is, but to berate people for its usage is like reading an United Nations research paper and launching into its author for using UNESCO.
    Yes, even I was not aware of the term when I started following united, but I have seen the term so frequently in use at United blogs and newsletters that its not odd anymore.

    Sorry everyone for the long and repetitive post, but I felt I had a point to make 🙂

  4. Shreyas

    26 April 2009 at 08:25

    Awesome game btw!

  5. Shreyas

    26 April 2009 at 08:31

    @Shreyas: Edit:
    Going by your rules, everyone would have to write in United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization every time they wanted to say UNESCO in order to account for the <5% reader who would probably not know what it stands for. ABU is a term that majority of the United fans are expected to know, in the same way that people using UNESCO would expect a majority of the people reading the article/write-up containing the abbreviation to know what it stands for. Its all about context.

  6. Grognard

    26 April 2009 at 08:45

    @Red Ranter: I think you have busted my balls over this quite enough thanks. Actually I never made that big a deal about it. Others did because I didn’t know what it meant and it frustrated me like I was stupid for not knowing it. So when I started to defend myself for the simple reason that nobody likes to be seen as a numpty, you came down on me. For what? Big frakken deal. I wasn’t pissed off with anyone in particular. I was just voicing a pet peeve I had with acronyms and this ABU thing just instigated it. You say it’s my problem but it seems you made it your problem too and I don’t really see why? It’s you who is making much ado about nothing, not me. I know you don’t see it that way but all you did with your replies is just upset me by putting me on the defense. If you had just kept quiet, nothing major would have been made of it and a few of the blokes were kind enough to explain to me the meaning and thus end my ignorance. What bugs you was my attack on 20 something IT geeks who use the Internet as their personal little slang codex. Well, consider me a miserable old bastard that does not conform to the lazy habits of this present IT generation. Jeez, it’s like I can’t even rant anymore without getting my wings clipped. 🙄

  7. Natzca

    26 April 2009 at 08:48

    @Grognard: ahh its all trivial,
    lets talk football,
    more importantly this week vs arsenal

  8. Grognard

    26 April 2009 at 08:53

    @Shreyas: I wasn’t berating anyone. I just voiced my frustration with territorial acronyms. I think I have been pissed on enough over such a totally useless issue. I got the message and I have had at least a half dozen people comment to me about the meaning before you decided to add your 2 cents. Honestly, I am being made to look like a miserable old bastard and asshole over this and I truly don’t appreciate it. I was making a valid point and instead of getting some support or even some disagreement, I am getting bombarded with accusations of being insensitive and berating individuals. I never said anything about any individual. On the other hand I have been made to look silly and petty which I am not. Honestly, I think I have been lambasted about this crap one too many times today.

  9. Grognard

    26 April 2009 at 08:56

    @Natzca: I agree, try telling that to RR and some others who are taking turns throwing rotten eggs at me. Christ you would think I molested Fergie’s daughter by the kind of abuse I have received from this. Truthfully, I am hurt over this and you are right, it was just trivial crap and I just voiced a pet peeve. So yes, lets talk football.

  10. Shreyas

    26 April 2009 at 09:02

    @Grognard: 😆 All in a days work when you are supporting a team like United. btw, “ABUs” doesn’t make sense or sound gramatically correct when u expand it, because of the ‘s’ in it. And I know ABUs itself is grmatically screwed up 😉

  11. Shreyas

    26 April 2009 at 09:07

    @Grognard: you tend to be affronted very quickly, don’t you. If anyone’s reading your comments the first time they would think you are the most hated guy on here, when in fact the opposite is true 😉

  12. Grognard

    26 April 2009 at 09:07

    You know what’s frustrating? Taking the time to write a long post about a subject like Paul Scholes and hardly getting any feedback at all from anyone, but when I make a remark against ABU or abbreviations being a frustrating thing to follow and read, I get crucified and have dozens of comments come my way. To say I am a little confused by that would be an understatement.

    Sorry if Groggy is feeling a little sorry for himself but there are times I wonder why I bother and why I try so hard to contribute to a site where it’s members and moderator would rather find time to poke fun at my ignorance over something and then berate me for defending myself? Why not take the time to read a post I have taken time to write about football and debate me on my views and knowledge of something to do with that subject? 😕 🙄 🙁

    Perhaps I am making much ado about nothing but I am a sensitive soul and I do not like it when I am made to sound like a fool, an out of touch old man and above all, I hate being accused of creating trouble when I know I haven’t.

  13. Babyface

    26 April 2009 at 09:07

    If Fergie had a daughter I would definitely molest her

  14. Red Ranter

    26 April 2009 at 09:11


    The attack on 20 somethings in particular doesn’t actually bug me as much as your insinuation that I discriminate people based on their usage of LOLs etc.

    All this comes as a thanks for months and months of defending you over countless attacks from fellow commenters. Yet, the moment I try to reason with you over something, you throw that out that I try to discriminate or clip your wings, (as if it gives me tremendous pleasure to do that).

    If you just ask other fellow commenters if I really did come on you hard then fine, I’ll take the blame for it. But I am pretty sure I didn’t try to clip your wings as you put it. And, if anything, if you read the tone of all my comments above it’s quite obvious I was looking to actually hear you out over the reasons behind your hatred towards people of my age group.

    Anyway, I’m sorry, I can’t devote all that energy to reason with you. If you think I made it a big deal, fine go with it. I’ve made my case without making any personal attacks of any sort according to my conviction. There is nothing in my comments, and I read everything again, to suggest I was berating you.

    My only regret is, it has come to this even after over a year of sort of knowing each other. And it’s rather sad and unfortunate, sorry to say.

  15. frankie

    26 April 2009 at 09:11

    @Babyface: People focus on how poor Evra is playing but I feel that Rafael is a defensive liability. He was completely out of position in Spurs second goal and he is getting skinned by the players he is assigned to mark putting extra pressure on Rio to cover him. To be honest none of our full backs inspire much confidence at the moment. I think that we should play Wes Brown and JOS in the next few games.

  16. Natzca

    26 April 2009 at 09:12

    I think we have a good chance with arsenal,
    our confidence is back, and our defence is better than theirs,
    if we can get at least 2-0 at home, we have a good chance to go through,

    and to clarify, we have confidence and belief not to make the mistakes we made in earlier games,
    they were probably a blessing in disguise, that we know have the resilience to come out of that will give us the edge in upcoming games

  17. Grognard

    26 April 2009 at 09:13

    @Shreyas: So call me sensitive. Another thing the Internet has a hard time discerning is people’s reactions and feelings over comments. Quite often an innocent comment can be completely misinterpreted when one is on the Internet. And all though I am not the paranoid fool I may sound like, I do get upset when my feelings over something are not considered and when others try to tell me that I am wrong while not getting where I am coming from.

    You say I am liked and I know several on this site that do indeed like me, but I have also had many battles and I do wonder sometimes if I am liked by a lot of you out there. For many that is not an important over the cold impersonal Internet, but in that I am very old school and so I do not like it when I am being misunderstood, disrespected or not liked. W e all should want to be liked I would think.

  18. Babyface

    26 April 2009 at 09:17

    frankie: you might be right about Rafael but he is still baby, imagine how good he could become…. and Fabio also!!!

  19. Red Ranter

    26 April 2009 at 09:18


    And I could argue that despite all these years of sticking up for you over here when you get so much shit, I get called for poking fun at you when I never even did that. I can’t believe I am to be blamed when you feel insecure or defensive over something when all my intention was to try and help you feel better. It makes absolutely no sense for me to stick up for you one moment and berate you and poke fun at you. You seem to forget the times I have made efforts to accommodate and amend comment policies based on feedback from people like yourself.

    God I can’t believe I am still talking about this. I gotta run and write a post on the Tottenham game and move on.

  20. Red Ranter

    26 April 2009 at 09:29

    And if you really want to know my personal views on the use and abuse of the English language, you can do so over email. You will be surprised, Grog, that we are more in agreement over the use of acronyms than you think. The point of disagreement I believe comes in context, but I don’t want to bore everyone with that stuff.

  21. Ahmed

    26 April 2009 at 10:03


    a bit over-emotional, aren’t you? You remind me of a certain Portuguese winger, the one who went down clutching his head after a touchline tackle when he fell on his ass.

    And about this liked/disliked/discrimination business, the truth of the matter is that the more you antagonise others, the more they’ll antagonise you. The mods (in this case the editor) can only do so much in terms of leveling the playing field.

    If you don’t think about others before you speak, or if you fail to take into account what reactions people will have to your views, you really shouldn’t be surprised if some people end up disliking what you say.

    I’ve gotten a lot of stick over the last 3 years at Soccerlens, much of it because I was more adamant on making my point than caring what people thought and felt. What I should have done (and try to do now) is to understand how people felt about the issue and shape my statements so that while I got my point across I didn’t directly antagonise people, on the contrary I would try to get them on my side while making my point.

    You don’t have to be on the fence. You should have an opinion. But there’s no excuse for not understanding your audience / peers.

    Something to think about away from the heat of the battle…

  22. Grognard

    26 April 2009 at 10:09

    @Red Ranter: Enough already RR. That is the same frakken song and dance you always shove in my face when I fight back a little. How often you have defended me and gone to bat for me like I’m Charles Fucking Manson or the Son of Sam? You make me sound like some bloody sociopath that needs to be coddled and treated with care or he will erupt like a volcano. And then if I do have mild eruption or if something rubs me wrong, I see very little support come my way. Like today. Instead of some support (because I believe I am right), I get berated by you and in the process, just made everything worse than it really was. 🙄

    While you were away for months this site never seemed to have much of a problem with me. The only time there were problems with me, it was due to some troll who would come out of the blue and cause problems. Quite often I wrongfully did your job and all I got was grief from you and little thanks for trying to put out a fire while the fire department was away on vacation. I certainly wasn’t the royal shit disturber that you make me out to be.

    Nope sorry, you are accusing me of a lot of petty bullshit that I am not going to confess to or apologize for. Not because I’m a prick or a troublemaker or because I am ungrateful and arrogant. It’s because you don’t get me and you don’t want to get me and you often berate me like you are scolding a child and I for one don’t appreciate it. I am 50 and I feel that anyone who is twice your age deserves a little more consideration, understanding and a whole lot more respect for his way of seeing things.

    I rub you wrong sometimes and rather than try to see things my way, I instead am always wrong. And I don’t have hatred for people in your age group. Not at all. What I don’t like is the smug arrogant attitude young IT professionals or just young computer savvy individuals have with the Internet and their usage and redefining of it. A lot of smartasses who think they know a lot because they can play and manipulate a PC environment and hack into things while we old guys are clueless old farts in their eyes. Hey, I’m notinto Twitter or Facebook or any of that shit. Twitter is for twits and for a generation that seems to have far too much time on their hands and has this desire to be intrusive in everyones life and personal business. I don’t subscribe to that stuff, not because I am too old to handle it technically but because I think it borders on moronic behavior. You forget I spent ten years hiring guys of that age group for hundreds of positions and I know exactly how they think and how they act. So forgive me if I have a built in defense towards slangs and lazy abbreviations and Generation X code for all thing that interest or irritate them. I hate computer or geek life in it’s present format. My best friend is an IT guy in his early 30’s and his attitude and personality regarding computers and the language used on the Internet and in the IT industry is often insulting and very condescending. And he has felt my wrath many a time. Especially since I was responsible for getting him his 80k a year job. So stop making me out to be an out of touch old man who is bitter and angry towards those half his age. I’m not, but I will not sit and put up with computer language and lazy attitudes that are bred from it because it only piss me off and perplex people of my own age group. My generation would like to communicate with others on the Internet without reading an abbreviation or acronym after every second word written. Just accept that I was frustrated and fed up with it and deal with it without slapping my wrist.

    Just because this is your site doesn’t make you always right, whether you think it does or it doesn’t. And spare me the argument that it’s your site so you are automatically right therefore if I don’t like it I can stuff it. This is your site but you should take some criticism in the proper way sometimes. Perhaps I have a point with all this and maybe, just maybe I know something you don’t. Trying to convince computer guys that they don’t know everything is a real chore these days. Humility in that arena is very much in short supply. I know you and some others may not think so, but I know I do. I am not always right but in this case, I had a valid point and I am going to stick by it and defend myself.

    I have been a United fan for 30 years and the first time I heard the term ABU and what it means was last week. Accept that and respect it. Don’t talk down to me and berate me over my ignorance. I had a valid point for not liking abbreviations and slang acronyms being used. And you come back with North American ones like the MLB or NFL? oh and the UNESCO one was sweet. ABU is not a league, a business, a network or any kind of organization. It’s slang lazy term that means “Anybody but United”. It’s just as useless and as lazy as “WTF”, which I find I have even begun to use on your blog just because everybody else seems to do so. It’s not like I get barraged by British media on my radio and tv everyday and hear them using that term all day long do I? Sorry mate, but I had a valid reason to ask what it meant and then I had a reason to defend myself after a few poked fun at me about it. I then added my pet peeve of acronyms and abbreviations in sentences and paragraphs on line because it reminded me of how I hate reading posts that are littered with them.

    This rant has gone on long enough and I’m sure I bored you around the third line. Suffice to say I do not like the “I defended you against such and such” card being played against me. It’s low and it’s unfair.

    Believe it or not I do respect you and like you quite a bit. I will ask you about something now since we are baring our souls. What ever happened to that writing contest you invited all of us to partake in while you were on holidays? Did you ever think that many of us wonder why that was scrapped without an explanation? Then we notice another individual contributing to the site with his fine articles and I for one felt a little shunned and unappreciated. I feel I contributed a fine post for the competition and I have many others that I would love to contribute which are not rude or intended to piss anyone off but just to inform and foster debate. Yet I nor anyone else ever heard anything about it. Many had commented in jest or in seriousness that I was a strong candidate as the winning contributor and although I was never counting my chickens before they were hatched, I can’t help but feel the reason it was scrapped was because of me. Call me paranoid but I have an intuition about things and I am often right. Anyway, no problem with that but I for one was hoping to get a chance to contribute that way, but I never got the chance nor an explanation. Perhaps you didn’t want to open Pandora’s Box when it comes to me, but I think others who made the effort to submit something deserve an answer. So what happened to that? Sorry for bringing that up but while I am hear defending myself and feeling mightily pissed off, I feel I might as well get that frustration and disappointment off my chest.

    And now the good news….I’m finished.

  23. Grognard

    26 April 2009 at 10:19

    @Ahmed: Unbelievable. I’m getting it form sites I don’t even visit. Out of line mate. Way out of line. I haven’t seen or heard you offer up anything on this site in months but you come out of the woodwork to support your buddy and to call me “a bit over emotional”. Anybody in my shoes would be after this gang bang I’m getting. You may mean well but frankly, it’s none of your business and I for one feel very insulted that you would come out of nowhere and let me have it when you know fuck all about me or my intentions. That’s it, I think I’ve had enough and taken far too much tonight for my liking. I apologize to all the rest of you out there for having to tolerate this crap. I certainly never wanted it and I certainly will not be talked down to like I’m some idiotic child that has no manners or common sense when he converses online. I never antagonized anyone directly today. I never mentioned names. I asked a question and then pointed out a pet peeve. For that horrendous criminal act I have been crucified by people that I respect. Incredibly hurtful, but then again, I’m a bit over emotional. Like that was gong to be taken well by me. 🙄

  24. Babyface

    26 April 2009 at 10:27

    Grog: Firstly, I apologize for having the temerity to call you up particularly being a relative newbie on this site but, if I may say so, you do be going to a bit mental on this.

    For the record, as far as the competition goes, I think you would be a bloody good contributor to the site

  25. frankie

    26 April 2009 at 10:46

    @Grognard: I can believe that after one of the most eventfuls games of the year and when we are facing a CL (sorry, Champions League) semi final the forum has been taken over by a spat between Gronard and Red Ranter. You are both great contributors to the forum but you should get over with your personal animosity issues and focus on what matters to most of us in the forum: our team

  26. Red Ranter

    26 April 2009 at 10:47

    @Ahmed: I am pretty sure this is a case of completely misunderstood notions. I contend everything I did here was well intentioned without a single line meant to either berate or make fun of. But may I suggest, your contribution on this issue at this moment in time, while perhaps well intentioned to defuse tension, may only contribute to aggravate things here.


    I read the whole thing. I can quite easily respond to most of it but you are quite pissed off right now, and I suspect my response is not appropriate to print over here because we’ve veered well off topic.

  27. Dan

    26 April 2009 at 10:47

    @Grognard: Maybe you should take a page out of your own book, and try to understand us, the way you came across about this acronym was that, all abbreviations are bad, and only idiots for the younger generations use them.

    You might not have wanted to sound like that, but you did, your a good person, but i dont really care if your 15 or 50, im treating you just the same as anyone else, you are not above anyone on this site.

    When someone points something out to you, you almost always, take it as if they are belittling you. I think you owe RR an apology, because he has stuck up for you for months now, but ask your self, why is it always you, why not me, or craig or matt? its because you always get your self in positions like this, you are to sensitive, to proud, and often to stubborn.

    Thats my view anyway, take it or leave it.

  28. Dan

    26 April 2009 at 10:52

    @Grognard: it is, Ahmed’s site after all grognard, i suspect he reads through it more often then not.

    You are right, you didnt mention names, but the way you where going on about the younger generation wasnt nice.

    95% of the people on this site are apart of that generation, did you really expect us to take it well?

  29. LB

    26 April 2009 at 11:04

    @Grognard: I am glad you brought the ABU up. I hadn’t a clue, and I was hoping somewhere I might be enlightened. Thanks, and I enjoy your comments, even if I do skim through due to ADD..

  30. Red Ranter

    26 April 2009 at 11:11

    @Dan: Er, it’s not his site. RR is a partner site of soccerlens, although he does a lot of background admin/tech work for this site.

  31. Red Ranter

    26 April 2009 at 11:14

    @Dan: Mate. The last thing I want here is someone telling someone else that they owe me an apology. He doesn’t owe me an apology for anything nor have I asked. I appreciate your effort to try to make peace. But please stay out of this.


  32. Red Ranter

    26 April 2009 at 11:23

    Also new post up. Hopefully that will end this sparring.

  33. Dan

    26 April 2009 at 11:27

    @Red Ranter: Wasnt he the one that started it..

  34. Red Ranter

    26 April 2009 at 11:32

    @Dan: We started it together but he doesn’t own it. There’s a difference. 😀

  35. Dan

    26 April 2009 at 11:54

    @Red Ranter: fair play, i thought you were a mere poster like my self when it started lol

  36. Craig Mc

    26 April 2009 at 23:23

    @frankie: Errrrr Frankie, Red Ranter or RR OWNS this forum mate, it is his site, and Grog and most of us on here don’t mind the spats. 😆 . Sorry if it effects you though, but you’ll have to toughen up on this hearty debate forum mate 😉 😆 .

  37. Craig Mc

    26 April 2009 at 23:31

    @Red Ranter: Nothing wrong with acronyms, I love them personally, and people will express themselves as they will! You know a lot of acronyms are a form of endearment, a form of secret language code between groups of fans, gotta love it 😆 .

  38. Craig Mc

    26 April 2009 at 23:33

    @Babyface: Wes Brown is back, he is solid, and he is immense. Hope he is over his injuries now 😀 . We need him up to speed. 😆

  39. Craig Mc

    26 April 2009 at 23:36

    @Babyface: WTF Bro? 😆 😆 .

  40. Roge9

    29 April 2009 at 02:45

    @Grognard: I had prepared a response to your long diss…ertation 🙂 on Anderson, but I lost it by neglecting to put my name and email( which is saved on my personal cpu)on a public cpu.

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